New boat builder looking for help...

[wilsonj]

Hello, im realitivly new to boat building and armed only with a good book (boatbuilding for beginners and beyond by Jim Michalak) a little cash (trying to keep this thing around $1000) and a good work ethic, i want to build this boat The hartley 18 footer (link below). However before i get into this project i have a few questions,

boat:
http://www.clarkcraft.com/cgi-local/shop.pl?cart_id=77ec9aca8f8efe89885af627047a5f01&type=item&categ=019&item=943117681

1. is this the right boat for me? for a beginner? i choose this one becuase it has a cabin, a small deck, flat bottom so it can be trailed, and rumored easy construction, suggestions?, ideas?
2. obviously if i bought nothing but 100% grade A marine plywood i would be over 1000, so im considering using lauan underlayment plywood for sections other then hull, or maybe for everything if buget becomes tight, what are suggestiong about this or comments you may have? is there a better solution for wood thats cheap? (around 11-12$ a 4 X 8 sheet ?)
3. how hard/expensive is sail and mast construction?, obviously i plan to use very cheap sail cloth but would prefer to buy the sail/mast, the mast on this boat is 23', is that very expensive to buy in aluminum ? also i have seen sails for small boats run easly into the 1000's alone, does that mean thats building the sail myself or getting the materials and haveing somebody else do it is equally as expensive?
4. on the site to buy this boat off they include an expoxy kit, fasterner kit and a frame kit, with that being said if i buy all the kits with the plans does that mean all i have to do is buy ply wood and all other materials come with the kit will alow me to start basic contruction? also a frame kit is the whole boat framed and you just build around that?
5. and finally is this project out of my league? increadbily hard? not worth it? can not be done for under or around $1000?

Thanks you very much for all the help,
John

[Paul Girouard]

No way you can buy the materials for that boat for under $1000.00. Period .

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

WilsonJ
First, if you are neophyte with a limited budget you'll have to convince yourself to pick a boat that is within your budget and a boat that you can build as the plans require. Any attempts at re-engineering to save money can be harmful to your health. All of us who putter around in home built boats bet our lives on what we have constructed.
Second, I doubt that even an experienced home builder could do what you suggest.
I built a plywood pirogue called "Cheap Canoe". It's only 14' x 30" but, cost about $285. The b.o.m. was 2 sheets of plywood , 1 gallon of epoxy and 50 yards of 4" 'glass tape. Being a first time builder I, naturally, used a lot more material than was called for.
What you have chosen is a fairly complicated boat. Big sail of 200+sq. ft. which could be worth $1000 or more by itself.
If you would like to see what various hulls cost ( basic hulls without sails, hardware, paint, etc.) go to this web sit:
http://www.boatplans-online.com/
A bill of materials is included with each hull they offer. You can plug in whatever material costs are prevailent in your area and see what $1000 will get you.
Bear in mind that the sail part of a sailboat (mast, spars, sails and rigging) usually cost as much as the hull. If you chose a small enough boat with an unstayed mast and a small sail that can be made from a blue tarp you might be able to break into the $1000 class.

Charlie

[Bob Cleek]

One of the richest men in the world back before the 1929 Stock Market Crash, maybe it was J.P. Morgan, was asked by another millionaire how much a huge yacht like his cost. The owner answered, "If you have to ask how much it cost, you can't afford it."

Truer words were never spoken! LOL

[Wiley Baggins]

The boat may well be reasonable for you as a builder, but the budget, as has been addressed above, is not. You may want to sit down with pencil and paper and outline your wants. Do you primarily want a boat with the characteristics of the Hartley 18 or do you primarily want to build a boat?

If it's the former, you may be able to find a small fiberglass boat that requires sweat equity to get on the water. If it is the latter, you will need to lower the bar. Poor materials are a false economy.

If you ultimately decide it is boat building you are interested in, outline your wants in the Designs/Plans section of the forum and you’ll get more suggestions than you’ll know what to do with and most worth considerably more than you will have paid for them.

[Tom Robb]

Given your plan, I'd suggest getting a good lawyer on retainer and lots of insurance.
Aim lower. Try something small/simple/do-able. If you find that fun build something a bit closer to your dreams. If not, bum rides on someone else's boat.

[wilsonj]

alright, so i should try a 16 footer instead? or is 16 still too big, factoring in materials costs etc?

[Bill R]

Well... I am FAR from an expert. Still only about 1/2 way through my first boat. Said boat is a 12' ply and goop skiff from open-source plans. I too am building on a budget, due to the full time college student wife and 5 kids. I have been keeping track of my materials expenses, as I have gotten a little at a time. Everything combined so far- ply, goop, screws, lumber, rope for the rigging, hardware, etc. has cost about $850. I still need paint, sail and oars. This DOES NOT include trailer or motor.

I went the route I did because of money. I just can't afford to build the boat I want at this time.

My $.02, FWIW

[katiedobe]

Welcome to the forum. Hope you learn a lot here. I sure have.

What these guys are saying is increase your budget.
Please tell me where can you buy Plywood with waterproof glue for $15 a sheet that will look good after you paint it? Because the epoxy and fiberglass would cost you about $500 right there. So I am assuming you are planning on just painting the plywood.

Dwyer Aluminum masts are not tooexpensive. Google them. I have one. I like it. Much easier than building one of my own and the maint is less. Paint it tan and most people won't know the difference. At least it won't detract from the ambiance of the wood boat.
I have a 17' sailboat very similar to the clarkcraft. Mine is designed by a guy in Corvallis, OR.
Here is a photo. I can post more if you want.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid206/p3d566713cbb59a626c86f58bc8d9e571/eed28ec3.jpg
He calls it a Junkett 17. Sleeps two comfortably, has room for a porta pottie and a cooler. But not much else. Very basic.

For $3,000 you can find 22' Glass boats that will come with all the sails, rigging, trailer and probably have a stove and more headroom. So if it is just a boat you want save your money.

If it is the experience of building a boat that you crave then follow the advice of Wiley and post your desires on the design page and then save money to spend because I do not believe you can build the type of boat you seem to want for less than $5,000. IMHO.

And yes if you bought the "kits" you probably would only need to buy plywood and probably extra epoxy because you will use more than they anticipate in their kits. Do they sell the sail kit?

Good Luck.

[Steve Lansdowne]

Know how to have a million dollars and a boat? First, you start with $2,000,000 ....

[JimD]

Did you know Hartley has it's own website? http://www.hartley-boats.com/index.html .There's probably been a few zillion of these Hartleys built and if you lived in Australia where they are popular you might be able to find a second hand one that might just need a little work.

But as others have suggested with your budget and if you want to build new you are looking at a little open dinghy with polytarp or second hand sails, a boat being a hole in the water you throw your money into.

[sgmiles]

I built a Hartley 18 close to 25 years ago and it cost close to $2000 way back then. Cost included frame kit, Philippine mahogany for everything not included in frame kit, fir marine ply, Sitka spruce for mast, used sails, and a bare trailer from a local trailer builder (cheaper than commercially available). Later added a couple of hundred dollars for epoxy/glass.

There is no way you could build one for $1000 today. You could probably build it if you have a moderate amount of woodworking skills and ability to keep at it - it was the first boat I built. I won't say mine was "first class", there were some rough spots, but it held together, never broke and still exists today (tho a quite a bit rougher after close to 10 years on the dry)

If you're budget limited, try something smaller, a lot smaller (I built a 14' ply catboat for ~$2500 including new sail and trailer and a 15' flat bottom sailing skiff that probably came in at less than $1000). If you want a trailerable boat with a cabin, budget for some more $.

And as had been said here for years, don't build out of inferior materials if it's a boat you plan on keeping a long time or use in rough conditions/cold waters. There's the best, the acceptable and the "don't do it" - luan underlayment for a boat this size falls in the "don't do it" category.

Good luck and don't give up.

[wilsonj]

Thanks for all the advise and critism so far, i have to admit i did little if no reasearch of the cost of something like this, however i have learned alot, i will be down gradeing to a 16 footer, and saveing an additional 500-600 dollars to add to the boat, i also have a small sail and mast , so all money can be spent on boat itself

[katiedobe]

Please keep us posted on what you decide upon.
Thanks

[wilsonj]

i have picked out two boats, one a smaller verison on the 18 and another one, check my new post

[pipefitter]

Better off building the boat you really want. Believe it or not,you can budget along with the work that it is possible to get done in a certain amount of time. In other words,even if you could buy everything at once,materials would just be sitting there waiting until you could get to it. I purchased the bulk of my materials that I had to get shipped at once to save freight charges. After that,I could get the rest locally and it was a painless expense. 50.00 here,100 there. It also allowed me to buy the best I could, or the option to, instead of having to try to fit it all in one designated dollar amount.

[katiedobe]

Pipefitter is right. Buy as you go along. So you may need five gallons of epoxy. It may be tough to pony up the cash for all 5 gallons at once. But a gallon here and a gallon here ain't going to make you poor.
Plus you can eat beans and weanies when you need to buy something expensive.:D

As to your other post I think you should stick with your original boat idea. 16' is too small for a cabin.
Have you looked into a Penobscott 14?. I think you could do this boat. Here is a link.
http://www.by-the-sea.com/archdavisdesign/davis_penobscot14.html

Here is a photo of another forum member's boat under sail.

http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/boats/scot/scot_62.jpg

Check out his website he has great info. You would be more comfortable taking a tent and camping on shore somewhere. Trust me I bought my boat because it had the cabin and we use it as a sail locker and day sail the boat. The few times we went sailing/camping we ended up sleeping at anchor then going to shore to use the picnic table.

Really this discussion should be moved to the Design page.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Wilsonj,
Notice the little sailboat in my avatar. That is an 8' x 46" sailing pram called D4. The plans are free.
To build it I spent;
$70 - plywood. Made a mistake. Had to buy an extra sheet of 3/8"BCX
$160 - kit. 1½ gal. epoxy,50 yds of 4" 'glass tape, 1lb of wood flour.
$5 for 2 ea. 2x4's to make an 8' mast.
$70-2 ea. 7' oars and oarlocks
$205 -33 sq. ft. spritsail
$30 - stainless fasteners for the rudder/tiller/gudgeon set and the various cleats, 2 bronze bushings for the oarlock sockets and enough braided rope for the sheet, the sail lashings, the sprit lanyard and the sheet horse.

I built from scrap;
8' redwood sprit.
stainless steel pintle and gudgeon set
White ash rubrails from a dead tree in my backyard.
2 mahogany transom knees
Red oak tiller made from a piece of firewood.
A small awning pulley for the snotter.
3 red oak cleats.
2 red oak oarlock sockets
This stuff would have cost me an additional $50 or so if purchased.
This tiny boat cost me $540 and would have cost at least $590 if I had to buy everything.
So, you had better bone up on cost estimating rather than start on too big a project that will die for want of money.

Charlie

[raymacke]

You also might want to check out the Weekender at http://www.stevproj.com/PocketYachts.html . Fairly simple and inexpensive construction plus nice support through their forum.

[Bob Smalser]

Hello, im realitivly new to boat building and armed only with a good book (boatbuilding for beginners and beyond by Jim Michalak) a little cash (trying to keep this thing around $1000) and a good work ethic, i want to build this boat The hartley....

As there have been a gazillion Hartley's constructed since 1960 or so, I recommend you buy a used one to restore, rather than build new:

1) Plywood is expensive to build with, yet used plywood hulls are dirt cheap, at least over here...only a restoration is anywhere within your stated budget. I picked up this Hartley a couple years ago complete with a good trailer for well under a grand and requiring a fraction of the time to put into service as opposed to building from scratch...as it needed little more than paint, an interior, and electrics in it:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3075025/37546443.jpg

2) Even for experienced cabinetmakers, boats are different...and Hartley's done well really aren't what I'd call a simple hull for a beginner, in spite of what the designers say. You are much better off beginning with a pram, punt or crossplanked skiff to hone your skills before tackling more difficult lines, curves, interiors and features:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3075025/160360245.jpg

3) Your first boat project will probably involve some frustration, best worked out on a 100-300 hour project, whether restoration or a nice pram from scratch.... as opposed to the 700-900 hour project you propose. A couple smaller, and successful projects beneath your belt is the best path toward your larger dream boat.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3075025/59367496.jpg

[Steve Lansdowne]

As you'll find if you visit the DuckworksMagazine.com web site, there are two schools of thought regarding home-build boats. Some folks enjoy using the best materials and finest craftsmanship to create heirloom quality boats from proven plans that are featured at wooden boat shows. These will last long if well cared for. This is the route featured in many of the WoodenBoat articles. A second group seeks to get by with common lumberyard materials, free plans, lots of epoxy to cover the hull, etc. and ends up with a much less expensive product. In fact, use of modern materials and quick construction at fairly low cost seems to be one of the things such folks are proud of. One of these less expensive boats can give lots of enjoyment, though in 5 years or so you may need to build another. Still, if you're not storing the boat on the water and just doing gentle day trips this may be the way to go. I realize the above description is a vast oversimplification, but there is definitely more than one way to build a wooden boat.

[Tom Robb]

Also the likelyhood of ever selling your homely, cobbled up on the cheap, former dream girl for anything but scrap is dismal.

[jimmy lee]

I have built and have launched the Lumberyard Skiff. It is a row boat at this time. My point is, I have $765.00 in just the boat. $843.00 in a new trailer. So I would suggest building the LYS if money is tight. The boat is also easy to build. That is My opinion.

[RodB]

Lots of good advice here, mostly pointing out the realistic cost of building a boat based on the parameters you have chosen.

I am against the idea of building a smaller "toy" boat just to get one boat under your belt. Once your done, you have a boat you mess with some but wish you had a much better/larger boat to actually meet your needs and wants. Now if you select a smaller craft that will definitely be useful and remain useful for many years, now thats another story. I think a good analogy is the mistake many guys make buying cheap tools in the beginning then realize they would have been much better off buying a higher quality tool in the first place as the initial investment is a loss due to buying junk.

Also don't be in a hurry and choose something you can finish in a few months...if you really want a larger more labor instensive craft.

I'm assuming you want to build a boat because you are determined to go thru the building process. Deciding on a plan, and then coordinating the entire process....solving the problems of each step throught the process, learning as you go like all of us. The design you have selected is surly doable by a first time builder.

If you calculate the boat you want will cost say $6-7K and you spread it out over say 3 years...that is more realistic a scenario were an average guy with average income can handle such a project. Having built an 18 foot skiff over about 3 1/2 years (lost 7 months due to foot surgery) I would much rather build a boat that I know will end up being really useful to me for several years...rather than build a practice boat. I was walked through the process by the designer and had no problems throughout the entire process. Naturally I was educating myself throughout the entire process and I did make question calls to my designer about once every two weeks. Additionally, you have this forum to get lots of help.

So there you have it, if you really want to build a specific sized sailboat and can run the numbers spread out over 3 years or so and they seem logistically feasable... then build what you want and have a blast going through each and every step of the process. If you have a limited budget then buy a used boat that needs some fixing up (wood or fiberglass) and you have to do much less work plus you'll be on the water very much sooner.

Good luck,

RodB

[Mazunga]

I am currently building this boat. so far I got the materials for the frames chines bronze fasteners epoxy and 8 sheets of oakume. I am already in for $1,400. Based on what I have done so far I am estimating that the materials will cost me about $3,500 +

BTW if anyone else is building this boat I would love to see some pics