yellow poplar for frames

[jorgoz]

I'm going to build the ZIP outboard runabout by Glen-l. smile.gif Finally. I've got yellow poplar available. Can i use this for the frames ? As it will be covered with epoxy, i don't see a problem concerning stability or rot. Anyone tried this before ? Glen-l mention in their bill of materials spruce or mahogany. As yellow poplar is a little stronger than spruce, also a little heavier, i think it could work. It hasn't got the strenght of mahogany, but as it is a small and light boat, i think it's strong enough. It will be covered with 7mm ply for the sides and 10mm for the bottom. For the decking i'm want to use 7mm ply covered with 2 or 3mm veneer. And ofcourse fiberglass with epoxy. I don't see a problem, but i want to be sure. George

[Wild Dingo]

George... go with your heart my son... :D

To paraphrase yourself...

i don't see a problem concerning stability or rot {thats once!}
i think it could work {thats twice}
i think it's strong enough. {thats three times}
I don't see a problem {thats four... GO FOR IT!!! :cool: }YOU actually believe it will work... and its only a light boat its a good wood its gonna be encapsuled in goop and glass... whats to worry?? :rolleyes:

SOooooo okay hurry up mate get at it!!! tongue.gif ... and remember our mantra... Pictures Pictures Pictures!! :cool:

Take it easy
Shane

[ken mcclure]

Yellow poplar will rot very quickly. If it's all you've got, try to encapsulate it with epoxy or CPES as well as possible to keep water away from it .

[Wild Dingo]

Ken...

Originally posted by jorgoz:
And ofcourse fiberglass with epoxy. GeorgeGosh were flamin good mate... or what?!!! :D :cool:

Take it easy
Shane

[jorgoz]

Shane, thx mate, you make me feel so much more confident :cool:

But then there's people like Ken that make me doubt myself again :confused:

George, feeling confident but confused :D

[John Teetsel]

From US Dept of Agriculture "Properties of Wood"

Yellow-poplar sapwood is white and frequently several centimeters wide. The heartwood is yellowish brown, sometimes streaked with purple, green, black, blue, or red. These colorations do not affect the physical properties of the wood. The wood is generally straight grained and comparatively uniform in texture. Slow-grown wood is moderately light in weight and moderately low in bending strength, moderately soft, and moderately low in shock resistance. The wood has moderately high shrinkage when dried from a green condition, but it is not difficult to dry and is stable after drying. Much of the second-growth wood is heavier, harder, and stronger than that of older trees that have grown more slowly. The lumber is used primarily for furniture, interior moulding, siding, cabinets, musical instruments, and structural components. Boxes, pallets, and crates are made from lower grade stock. Yellow-poplar is also made into plywood for paneling, furniture, piano cases, and various other special products. Kind of wood - Yellow-poplar

Planing: perfect pieces 70 (%)
Shaping: good to excellent pieces 13 (%)
Turning: fair to excellent pieces 81 (%)
Boring: good to excellent pieces 87 (%)
Mortising: fair to excellent pieces 63 (%)
Sanding: good to excellent pieces 19 (%)
Steam bending: unbroken pieces 58 (%)
Nail splitting: pieces free from complete splits 77 (%)
Screw splitting: pieces free from complete splits 67 (%)
Yellow-poplar is classified as slightly or nonresistant to decay.My experience
The good news - it's generally a joy to work with.

The bad news - you don't want to route or shape this wood. It splits explosively if you catch the grain incorrectly.

If sanded, it leaves a fuzzy surface that needs to be well sealed, then resanded and resealed.

If used for components that won't be immersed in water, rot should be controllable. If you can do that with your frames, go for it, but it would sure be a shame to put all that work into that nifty little Zip and then have it rot out in a few years. How much more does that bit of mahagony cost? How much is your peace of mind worth?

Have a look at this table from the Glen-L site. The absence of poplar says something to me.

http://www.glen-l.com/wood-plywood/bb-chap5e.html

Good luck, and like Dingo says, PICTURES.

[Wild Dingo]

Gorge my son :cool: {dontcha love it when I try bein sooooo cool?! HA! tongue.gif }... what we have here is one Ken the gumbleass who has designs on becoming an O&O postulate and therefore must at times exert his orneryness and obstroperlous nature... luckily for all Ken the grumbleass rarely ever shows his words... ;)

What Ken meant to say was... "George this may not be the best of timbers for what your thinking of doing but if your going to slather it in googe and glass there will be no problem on the other hand if your not going to slather it in googe and glass then bless my buttons my friend you will no doubt end in some difficulties"

Now isnt that right Uncle Ken??? :D

End result is... IM RIGHT!!... gawd Im gettin good!! :D Enjoy the building mate and remember the mantra... Piccys Piccys Piccys!! :D

And doncha just hate it when someone comes along and mucks it all up!!! Thanks John!!! :rolleyes: sigh.. I was feelin sooooo good then for a few seconds too... oh woe!

But!!!... never to fear I have had a brainwave!!... John with his post has given us an out! Good on yer son!... howsat? you asked well my son I will tell yer no worries!

Originally posted by John Teetsel:
The lumber is used primarily for furniture, interior moulding, siding, cabinets, musical instruments, and structural components. Boxes, pallets, and crates are made from lower grade stock. Yellow-poplar is also made into plywood for paneling, furniture, piano cases, and various other special products.

Number 1 its uses give us a hint... musical instuments cabinets furniture pretty good stuff! {insert cheeky smirk here cause Im now... OUT OF FLAMIN SMILIES!!!}

Originally posted by John Teetsel:
Planing: perfect pieces 70 (%)
Shaping: good to excellent pieces 13 (%)
Turning: fair to excellent pieces 81 (%)
Boring: good to excellent pieces 87 (%)
Mortising: fair to excellent pieces 63 (%)
Sanding: good to excellent pieces 19 (%)
Steam bending: unbroken pieces 58 (%)
Nail splitting: pieces free from complete splits 77 (%)
Screw splitting: pieces free from complete splits 67 (%)

Number two lookit how good it is to work with!!! and from the US Dept of Agriculture no less
Finally...

Originally posted by John Teetsel:
My experience
The good news - it's generally a joy to work with

Soooooo Im still right!!... YAAAAYY ME!! ;)

...so far

Take it easy
Shane

[ 12-16-2002, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

[NormMessinger]

Ah, Shane, but you should see the kind of furnature they use in (cheap junk) and where on the pieces (drawer sides, back panels).

--Norm

[ken mcclure]

Heh-heh. There is the school of thought that says that you should go ahead and build with whatever wood you have available rather than not build at all due to lack of funds for the "right kind" of stock.

There is also the school of thought that says that the hull and framing are a relatively small portion of the cost of the whole boat, so it shouldn't be a problem to spend a little more for the "right kind" of stock.

I work a lot with poplar in cabinetry, using it for various framing members as well as drawer boxes and even entire cabinets that are going to be painted.

I even did a complete kitchen in poplar that was finished bright. Interesting wood to finish bright, but you have to be very careful about grain selection and matching.

I've never had a problem with poplar fuzzing when I sand it - I get much more trouble from figured maple. For me poplar machines very well except that tool burns can show up very quickly, and tools that are not absolutely sharp can "catch" the grain as noted above and blow out a section of the piece. If you are very careful laying out the stock so that you are milling "downhill" on the grain all the time this will not be a problem.

Poplar is not a very strong wood, and I question its useability as framing stock. If I were to use it I would increase the framing member sizes in order to make up for the reduction in strength of individual pieces.

If cost is an issue, you may want to look around for companies that salvage wood from old buildings that are being torn down. You may be able to find some nicely dimensioned old fir or yellow pine which would be preferable to the poplar for this use.

smile.gif

[ken mcclure]

:D And I prefer MISTER Grumbleass, if you don't mind. :D

[Wild Dingo]

sigh... but fellas I was jest tryin to be supportive... encouragin... open... forthright... while maintainin me normal hyper self... sigh tongue.gif

George my son... It looks like I may have to take a bit of a hiding... but I am strong! I am determined! I am DINGO!! I will be back!!!...

so what the heck am I saying??... good question Im so glad yer asked... as for an answer... five little words {and a smilie of course! ;) }

Do what yer gotta do! :cool:

I STILL WANT PICS!!!
dont yer fellas try ter take that away from me!! :mad:

Take it easy
Shane right in some ways wrong in others Shane

[ 12-16-2002, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

[Jack C]

George, I have a confession to make.

I use poplar.

Yep. Straight out of one of them orange stores. Used it for the stem and hatchrails for my "big" boat (18 ft. Norwalk Island Sharpie). Currently making 1 mast and 2 booms out of it for my dinghy (12 ft.).

And yep, it's all hidden behind coatings of epoxy, paint, and in the case of the stem, 3 layers of fiberglass.

All my boats live on shore, so I'm not worried about the "r" word.

And yep, it's really nice to work with, second only to mahogany (oak is too damn hard for my jigsaw).

Cheers.

Jack

[Bob Aberton]

ooh...

I used yellow poplar for the keel & stringers of my 12' sailboat...did I make a whoopsie?

[Wild Dingo]

BY GEORGE GEORGE!! :eek: We have been rescued from tha woodn purgutory!...

Tis a usefull wood after all ye have thar ma fren... noworriescobberflaminwellgerrinnait!! :D

Take it easy
Shane I am redeemed Shane :cool: tongue.gif

[jorgoz]

Okay guys, now i'm really starting to get confused, but not discouraged :cool: Just ordered the plans, no ones gonna put me off :mad: .

There's people who do (Jack and bob, thx guys for coming to the rescue) and then there's people who don't (too many to mention tongue.gif ). So who's right.....must meditate on that........

I think i'm going to throw in the towel :( , or not tongue.gif .

Maybe i'm i'll look for another wood for the frames, would like the boat to outlive me, and thats a long time :D
I know where to get some nice Sipo Mahogany. Maybe I'll use the poplar for the beams to put the frames on, if that's okay with y'all ;)

Lot's a maybe's, but still got a couple of weeks before the plans arrive.

And as for the mantra : piccy ooooohhhmmmm piccys ooooohhhmmmmmm loads of piccys ooooohhhhmmmmmmm, i'll do my best.

Thx shane for the support, cheers mate. In hard times you know yar friends smile.gif If i ever can do anything for ya, you just le me know. Darned, no smillies left

Later guys, George

[ 12-17-2002, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: jorgoz ]

[Wild Dingo]

Well no worries George! :cool: all in a days work!

On the other 'and... If i ever can do anything for ya, you just le me know ...well... ahem... errr... ahem cough cough... errr well as you so thoughtfully asked... yer see George theres this aweflaminsome Schooner Ive been hankerin for :eek: ... but truely it will be well worth the effort mate! :rolleyes: ... couldnt yer just hop a plane and fetch her down here for me? :confused: ... not far just a wee zip across the little puddle :D ... comonmateypweeeezeIweelyweelyneedthatboat! :(

Aww... strewth!... no worries cobber! I still maintain ifn yer gonna whack googe all over it and cover it in that fibreglass stuff... then use it!... on the other and of course if yer can get at mahogany well you just go for it!! ...remember mahogany I believe may be a tad heavier than that other stuff that old MISTER grumbleass Ken and co have confused you about!! ... its really clear as mud mate.. yuse it an the old Grumbleasses ride yer dont and... well... and... gawd well use what yer can okay?! after almost a year and a half of tryin to get two flamin ruddy canoes done {which must be a flamin ruddy record somewhere} what the blazes would I know!!

flaminmongrelhalfbakedhalfbrainflaminbuilders :mad:

Take it easy
Shane

[Roger Stouff]

George,
First, congrats on building a Zip. I just finished mine in May, and I like it a whole bunch.

There are folks on this forum using popular, which surprises me. Perhaps then it would be okay, though I had never believed so. I am of the opinion that you should use the best wood you can, and I am also of the opinion that your local boatbuilding woods are best when the "old standby" isn't available or practical. I framed my Zip in cypress. You can see pics under the "Boats" link on my website, listed below this post.

Biofish, on this forum, is also building a Zip, and perhaps he'll chime in, too.

Good luck!

R

[John Teetsel]

<snip> after almost a year and a half of tryin to get two flamin ruddy canoes done {which must be a flamin ruddy record somewhere} what the blazes would I know!!

Yea, what about those canoes? What happened there mate. Did you actually epoxy them to the chair, or what?

[jorgoz]

:D Guess what guys, just cleaned out my little workshop and i stumbled across some really fine european larch. :cool: yieehaaaaa
Now you can't have anything against this stuff. moderatly durable wood, sometimes sought after for planking. A littler heavier than mahogany, but asked Glen-l if i could give it a little more oomph and they said ok, so again no probs there. I will be able to sleep okay this night :D

Rog, i already checked it out, nice report you made about you nice whee little ZIP.

Shane, is the planeticket a gift for me :D , on me way mate. Musn't forget me swinning trunks and sunglasses :cool:

[Wild Dingo]

aaahhhh John mate are yer sure yer wanna know??... :rolleyes: Yer do? Okay then since yer insist Ive gone and posted a new thread over in misc boat related... ;)

George mate... DEFINANTLY ABSOFLAMINLUTELY bring the bathers mate and a hat and some sunnies and a esky full of cool ones been riding somewhere around 30C or 100f the last couple of days... bloodybrilliant!!... I'll supply the roo steaks... well okay Sam will but its my Barbie mate! Just remember the schooner okay??? :D :cool:

Take it easy
Shane

[ 12-17-2002, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

[Mrleft8]

Seems to me I read something about Rob White building some of his boats out of Poplar...

[John Bell]

Robb uses tulip poplar, which isn't really poplar at all. It's more closely related to magnolias. I've got some big ones in my yard if you want 'em.

[Rick Tyler]

Yellow poplar and tulip poplar are two different names for the same tree, which isn't, as has been noted, part of the poplar family.

Strange names, too, since they don't look like tulips, and the wood is more tan and green than yellow. Since they aren't poplars, either, I suppose they were named by the folks that named Grape Nuts cereal.

(TWIAVBP: Grape Nuts is a USAian cereal made from wheat. No nuts. No grapes.)

Yellow (or tulip) poplar is well suited for furniture frames, drawer sides and backs, and indoor projects that will be painted. I laminated 8/4 yellow poplar for the legs on my workbench. As for its use in boat structures, I would have to join the grumbleass team.

- Rick Tyler

[Bill Perkins]

Rick the trees' flower is large and sort of tulip like . They come raining down in the thousands around here in the Spring .It's a sexy tree , and not so very weak . I've used LVL lumber made out of it .

[Rick Tyler]

Bill,

One of the nice things about yellow/tulip poplar is that you can still get long, straight, thick pieces of it for reasonable prices. That's probably because the wood is not particularly attractive (the green streaks and blotches look too much like WWII US Army uniforms).

I didn't know what the blossoms look like, but that does help understanding the name. The trees themselves certainly don't look like tulips.

- Rick Tyler

[Mrleft8]

Around here, "Yellow poplar" is also known as "Tulip tree" or "white wood" It's latin name is "Liriodendron Tulipifera". Magnolias are "Magnolia grandiflora".
At least around here..... In some places Aspens are known as "Poplar" or "popplewood" What is the "Poplar" that White uses? I assumed it was Liriodendron Tulipifera.....