View Full Version : Pocket cruiser: 17.5' or 19.5' ?
I've finally narrowed down the choice for our pocket cruiser for cruising the BC Gulf Islands with swmbo. It will be a Paul Fisher design, either the 17.5' Evening Swan or a 19.5' stretched version, White Swan. They look like this:
http://www.selway-fisher.com/PC1620p1.jpg
This boat pictured is the 17.5 foot verison. Here are the basic specs: LOD 17'6" (5.3m); Beam 7'3" (2.2m); Draft 2' (0.61m); Weight (incl. engine) 2547 lbs (1155 kg); Ballast 630 lbs (286 kg); Sail Area 216 sq.ft. (20.07 sq.m.).Note - the plans also include details/moulds for a strip planked hull.
Above - "Saskia" a strip planked Evening Swan built by Chris van der Craats in Australia - as he says"this has to be the Morris Minor of sailing boats, small in LOD, but enormous inside"
This is the only pic I've been able to find for the larger White Swan. Can't say I like all the white paint on this one but the hull has a handsome multichine look to it:
http://www.selway-fisher.com/WSwanp1.jpg
Ours won't be a traditional cutter rig. It will be a junk, either one sail or a cat yawl. It will be a chined plywood hull.
Cathy (Mrs JimD) is encouraging me to go for the larger boat. There would be some added comfort and perhaps safety. But my minimalist instincts and need to be practical are pointing toward the smaller boat for a few reasons. I have only a 20x22 foot workspace and building a bigger boat would be a hassle. It would also cost a little more to build and the budget will be very tight. It would be heavier and harder to tow with our six cylinder pick up. Might need a bigger trailer, would be two feet more expensive to moor, etc. These are big, roomy boats for their length. Am I crazy to think small?
paladin
07-03-2006, 02:57 PM
no...but ladies like formal potties......and the extra 2 feet may be the difference between a successful trip and one where mama goes home early.....keep mama happy and the rest is gravy.......:D
Thorne
07-03-2006, 03:08 PM
Speaking from a lot of experience in towing (relatively) heavy boats with light trucks (and a VW van!), your primary problem will be smoking the clutch pulling the boat back up the ramp.
Very few 2x2 pickups have the low gear ratio needed to pull that much weight up that sort of angle -- then add wet concrete and/or seaweed to the mix. 4x4 small trucks can pull that angle, but will still be slow if you tow up any mountain grades.
I hear you on the workspace limitations -- I've got a 14' boat on a trailer in a garage with 19' of clear space -- and it is TIGHT working around the boat.
garland reese
07-03-2006, 03:11 PM
I had given some consideration to the two of those designs at one point. I think both have lots of merit. I suppose only you can decide which one to build. I had been thinking small (16 -18 feet) for a long time, but now it seems, I'll likely get one shot at building a wood boat of substance, so I'm thinking that something more might be the dream to shoot for. I keep wandering around with the likes of Fisher's Kittywake canoe yawl, Wenda (no room inside though), and Oughtred's Eu Na Mara or Grey Seal (? the name escapes me). Even Oughtred's smaller double ender strikes romance in me, as she now has more strakes and a yawl option (I think, anyway). Even John Welsford's Whaler has me thinking......if only she had a bit of a cabin....
I now have a new lady in my life, and she is not too keen on minimalist cruising (that is all I ever imagined, was to cruise minimalistically). I don't know where I'll end up. I do know this boat dream thing is a strong bit of medicine, and it does not let go easily.
This boat thing seems really to be a very personal choice. There are plenty of highly experienced folks here who can offer very sound advice, based on their personal experience. Hopefully you can use all these wonderful resources, plus your own honest analysis of your wants/needs vs reality, to decide what is truly best for you and your family.
There are so many nice designs out there. I wish you all the good luck in the world. Being on the water is truly a pleasure. For me, simplicity adds to the pleasure..........oh yeah, and a canoe yawl just does it for me. Sorta like the perfect girl, everyone has a different perception and preference. That makes the world so very interesting.
Be well, and good luck (oh, I'd go for the slightly larger one...)
Garland
...John Welsford's Whaler has me thinking......if only she had a bit of a cabin...
Garland
Say, Garland. I've talked to John about a cabin for the Whaler and have study plans for her which I've used to draw up a cabin and draining cockpit. No problem. As I understand he says it's already being done by others and he has done the math for extra ballast, etc. So now you can keep the 6MW on your list;) :D
no...but ladies like formal potties......and the extra 2 feet may be the difference between a successful trip and one where mama goes home early.....keep mama happy and the rest is gravy.......:D
So if I build a really luxurious cedar bucket that she'll be happy with I can build the 17.5?
garland reese
07-03-2006, 08:05 PM
Thanks for the information Jim. It sure seems like there is enough room and capacity for the addition of a cabin. I wonder what might have to be done to the rigging? Higher (for clearance over the cabintop? More sail area, to deal with the added weight and the need for added ballast on the keel? Anyway, I do like the Whaler. I like his method of building, as it is pracitcal, simple, effective, and seems well proven by all the Navigators and other smaller Welsford boats.
That would be a good size for me, I think.....
One thing I wanted was a full keel and SF makes that easy with the box keel design that can be fillled with scrap. No pouring lead or paying for an iron casting. John W seemed unwilling to redesign the Whaler for a full keel and I don't want another centerboarder. I thought for a long time about a Whaler before scratching it from the list. It's a really striking looking hull.
Woxbox
07-03-2006, 10:30 PM
Well, one thing is certain. No matter how big it is in the garage, it will seem to shrink to half its size out on the water. You want the bigger one - a couple of feet make a big difference in this size range.
paladin
07-03-2006, 10:52 PM
Jim....it better be a darn nice bucket...'cause splinters in mamas bottom is no help.....:D ...and I betcha camping gets old in a hurry....at 27 feet it was still to small for the lady I had.....
Andrew Craig-Bennett
07-04-2006, 08:43 AM
What Chuck says. If all you want to do is cross an ocean, the little boat would be fine, but if you want to progress along a coastline, bigger is better. Two feet make a lot of difference.
John Bell
07-04-2006, 08:47 AM
When you add two feet to a boat, the two feet are added in the most important part: the middle. The 19'er will feel 50% larger than the 17'er. The trade-offs in cost, complexity, and weight for size will be more than worth it in going larger with a boat in this size range. Build the bigger boat.
Looks like we'll go for the big one. Are gold fittings required for the bathtub or will stainless do? :D I'm still waiting for the study plans for the 19.5 to arrive. This puppy will probably take me five years to build. I feel a sense of relief having finally made a decision after a few years of starting threads on just about every pocket cruiser on the market. First I'll have to make the garage bigger so I have enough room to build. I just knew this was gonna happen :rolleyes:
So if I build a really luxurious cedar bucket that she'll be happy with I can build the 17.5?
It may not help you decide, but the cruiser I'm building was a 21 foot design and I'm stretching it to 23 feet (after discussing it with the designer) The additional 2 feet will be added to the cabin just for camping in a cove or relaxing during a rain....
Cec, what are you building?
Cec, what are you building?
It's a Glen-L design called the Vera Cruise. 23 foot Express Cruiser. Outboard with a built in head and small galley, v-berths up front.... my redesign is here in a Photoshop drawing:
http://home.comcast.net/~cecallred/ (http://home.comcast.net/%7Ececallred/)
I've built a couple Glen-L boats. If they had anything close to what I'm after I'd build a third, but alas. I like Vera Cruise, the sort of '50s classic design Glen-L does so well. Think your's will be in the water any time soon?
Happy 4th by the way :)
..No, Jim, no time soon because this is a project at it's beginning. I'm ballparking 2 years to be conservative, but I also know me, most likely less than that. On top of starting the boat, I'm getting married in October and the planning and time for that is priority one, then as I told her (and she didn't kill me) "Once that whole marriage project is done we can start on the boat...." Good thing she has a sense of humor ;)
Happy 4th by the way :)
... Good thing she has a sense of humor ;)
...cause she's gonna need it!:D Happy fourth to you to, and congrats on the marriage project.:)
RobertZ
07-10-2006, 04:19 PM
Jim,
Jim congratulations on the decision. What are you planning to do with the Minuet. I must say I will be sad to see you not posting on pocket cruisers any more. I have really enjoyed the responses you received, and lived vicariously through your posts. I am still building my Minuet, and appreciated your posts in the past. Is the design you selected a S&G boat? Good luck with the build.
Cec,
Good to "see" another Glen-L BBC member over here!
Robert
Cec,
Good to "see" another Glen-L BBC member over here!
Robert Thanks Robert,
Good to be here. It was at the Glen-L BBC that I found out about this one. The balance in both building ideologies has given me a much better rounded learning experiance. Good folks on both forums...
Robert, haven't decided what is going to happen to the Minuet just yet. We've recently moved to Vancouver Island from Alberta and the Minuet is still in a shed on the other side of the Rockies. Very soon I have to make time to go back and get it but that means time off work here which I can't get at the moment and blah blah blah it goes. I'm expecting to take a few years to build the Selway Fisher design so I expect I'll use the Minuet here for quite a while. That is as soon as I can get it here. Since I want to junk rig the White Swan 19.5 I'll probably experiment on a polytarp junk rig with the Minuet so I'll know what I'm doing with it when the time comes. How's your Minuet coming along?
Spokaloo
07-10-2006, 06:54 PM
Jim, after getting the planks stitched and glued up, Im actually going to say you will finish her faster than you think. Paul's plans are very accurate in the plank shape, it stitches like a dream (mine has 10 panels), and really stunned me how quickly she popped into 3 dimensions. As usual, the feverish pace will drop off after initial hull completion, but really its quick for the designs to come together (and my boat is 17').
Also, hey if you need someone to drag that thing, im pretty much in the middle between Alberta and 'Couv island. Could make an arrangement to haul it for ya.
E
E (I keep wanting to call you 'Spook':D ) thanks for the transportation offer but it's not as simple as all that. The boat is in storage with sundry other personal belongings that we didn't have time to deal with last year so I have some serious housekeeping to do back in AB. I'm going to try to get a week off in October to go back and settle up.
White Swan is quite a substantial little cruiser coming in at close to 3,000# displacement including 800# ballast. The cabin will be fully fitted out with stove, sink, wc, berths, etc and I know I won't have alot of free time to work on her so I don't want to be too optimistic about how quickly she goes together. And in the summers I won't work on her at all as we will be too busy kayaking and enjoying the sunny, warm weather.
So got any picks of your boat's progress to show us? I've grown to really appreciate the look of multichine hulls even as much as a proper round hull. To me they don't look like a poor man's approximation of a 'real' hull. They have a legitimate aesthetic all their own. I may add another chine to the White Swan above the waterline.
Spokaloo
07-10-2006, 09:21 PM
Jim, I will post up some after "interior epoxy day" wed. Expecting upper 70's F here (20s for our metric bretheren), much better than the 90s (30+) here lately.
She will take time, but you will have a hull faster than you think!
E
Doug Canada
07-11-2006, 06:45 AM
Cape Cutter 19
http://www.dixdesign.com/inspir19.htm
Elver
http://www.sredmond.com/index_boat.htm
Eun Mara
http://www.alistego.com/Site/Welcome.html
Penguin
http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/penguin/
Whisper -Secret
http://www.whisperboats.co.uk/secret.html
Doug
.
Doug, that's quite an assortment of designs. Did you need some help choosing one? ;)
RobertZ
07-11-2006, 10:06 AM
Jim,
Thanks for the information on the White Swan. I have looked at those designs as a potential for my "next" build, but SWMBO has said no more plans until the Minuet is finished. I am currently aligning the the frames on the building form on my Minuet. I completely understand the time thing, as I am already a year into the project have accomplished much less than builders working only one month. Oh well, I am building it for the journey as they say.
Not to bring up another design, but why did you decide against the Glen-L Amigo? I vagualy remember you had bought the plans.
Robert
It was with considerable regret that I gave up on the Amigo, deciding it was too heavy. It just wasn't quite portable enough.
Ed Armstrong
07-11-2006, 03:29 PM
Jim,
I followed some of your posts in the past and am glad to see that you've selected a design. I hope to someday build something in this size range, and have gone back and forth between an Eun Mara, Flatfish with cabin, Sally Rover, Zimmer Sloop, and several others. Lately I've been looking back at Mr. Dias' Anabelle II, which is an electric auxiliary cutter, though my current favorite is Gartside's #106.
I may be coming to the realization that I am not likely to have the time to build a twenty-footer, at least not until I retire, which is some years away. I am currently three years into a 10-foot Oughtred dinghy, which probably will not be finished until winter, which tells me that I'm a slow builder. Until I have more time, I am building vicariously through those that have embarked on their big projects. Please post numerous photos showing your progress.
Ed
Meerkat
07-20-2006, 05:58 PM
Goooolaaaant Gaaaaferrrrr - darn it!
Private, enclosed head for m'lady.
Smashing good looks!
Did I mention I have a set of plans available? ;)
Goooolaaaant Gaaaaferrrrr - darn it!
Private, enclosed head for m'lady.
Smashing good looks!
Did I mention I have a set of plans available? ;)
:D Trust me Meerkat, you don't want me building a GG. First I'd convert her to a junk rig and if doesn't bring tears to your eyes then I'd put a honkin' great, tall house on her so I wouldn't have to leopard crawl around inside her. Still want me to build one?;)
Meerkat
07-20-2006, 06:20 PM
No, just buy my plans! :D
No, just buy my plans! :D
:D Ya know I'd like to help you out with that, buddy, but, hey, I can't even afford the plans for the boat I wants to build and I already gots a drawer full of plans for boats I'm not gonna build. I have to make it back to Alberta this fall to get the Glen-L Minuet out of storage and spend the winter fixing her up a bit, especially designing a junk rig on an unstayed mast to see if I really like the rig as much as I think I will. Then I'll at least have a usable sailboat out here suitable for the many protected bays. And by then I should have enough dinero to write Paul Fisher a cheque.
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