Lumberyard Skiff

[kevindtimm]

I purchased #191 with the promise of Beginners Boatbuilding Plans. Instead, I recv'd the Lumberyard Skiff crayon drawing. In response, I sent the following to the publisher and editor:

Well, it would appear that WB got my money without delivering much of
anything. I excitedly paid my 5.99 USD and received just slightly better
than sketchy details. This same information could be found truly FOR FREE by
searching the internet. As far as I could tell, the included 'drawings' were
not to scale, and if they were, how much to suppose it would cost me to get
them blown up? Or, I could spend an additional $35 (plus s/h) and wait for
them to show up. But, of course, I have to send the money (and receive the
plans) via snail mail. I thought this looked like a great 3-4 day (weekend plus)
project, but instead see that it's a great way to separate me from my money.

Free Beginners Boatbuilding Project. HA!

[StevenBauer]

Dude! Take a chill pill. There is plenty of info in there to build this simple boat. And the $5.99 is the cost of the rest of the magazine, the LS plan is free. Plus you get the website with access to direct question and answer sessions with the authors of the article. In fact, your post should really be over there on the Getting Started in Boats forum. I'll check in over there to follow your progress.

Steven

[Tar Devil]

Kevin, there's more than adequate information in that insert for a beginner to build that boat. You can sufficiently enlarge the plans on the copier where you work. Furthermore, Woodenboat set up forum dedicated to assisting those building the Lumberyard Skiff. I'd say they're giving you your money's worth. Perhaps boatbuilding isn't quite your thing.

And if you can't find anything else in that magazine to justify your 5.99 USD, I'll guarantee boatbuilding isn't your thing.


Phil

Edited to add... Steven, you sneaked in while I was typing.

[kevindtimm]

I'm pretty chilly, and pretty easy to please. Unfortunately, I'm a beginner and truly did not understand a lot of the terms that were used. It was easier when I went to the 'gettingstartedinboats.com' but without internet access, I still wouldn't know what these terms were.

I definitely did not understand how to cut the inner stem, nor could my 'fading' eyesight read some of the itsy bitsy print, specifically the dimensions and positioning information. I can enlarge the pictures, but we're talking about 16' long pieces, 20" wide. That's a minimum of 50 pieces of paper, all taped together.

Caveat emptor, I think.

[botebum]

Kevin, I'm not familiar with the LS, but gleaning from what you've said so far, I'm not sure you're quite ready to build any boat. Getting familiar with some of the terminology is usually a primary task with any hobby. Assuming that a complete novice can slap together a usuable boat in 3-4 days is naive. I don't mean to insult you. Be patient with any hobby you undertake and get to know some of the lingo and the ins and outs. We(the forumites) are here to try and help in any way we can(well, most of us). Stick with it, give it your best shot, and welcome to the forum.

Doug

[MPM]

Thanks for posting your concerns, Kevin. Having worked with the illustrator and author of Getting Started, I feel compelled to respond--although the already-posted responses say much of what I want to say. A few additional points:

1) Our aim with these drawings was for transparent information delivery--minimal text, maximum visual information. While they look simple, they were in fact extremely labor-intensive to produce--much more so than photographs and words would have been. Which isn't to be defensive. Rather, it's to urge you to give this project a try if you're inclined to. Questions will emerge as you proceed, and you may find their answers springing from the drawings. Or you may not; If you don’t, I invite you to either e-mail me personally or post questions to the Getting Started Forum. I guarantee that you'll hit snags in this or any first-time boatbuilding project, and that, if you stick with it, you'll translate those snags into lessons learned.

2) Stems can be mind-benders. There's a lot of stuff coming together there. We were tempted to do one with a consistent bevel, but that would have diminished the visual and functional appeal of this boat. So you have to learn to cut a changing bevel. This element of the project is full of lesson material. Learn to do it, and your world will be opened to far more complex projects. Make a few practice stems of cheap framing material if you find this process intimidating. It will become clear.

3) Our aim with this project is to build boatbuilders, not to sell plans. Maynard offers plans to people who want them, but there's enough information in the publication to build the boat. Enlarge the plans on a photocopier if you need to. They needn't be full sized--just large enough so you can read the figures.

4) We're publishing a glossary of terms on the Getting Started web site. If we've missed any, post the confounding word or e-mail me. We'll publish a definition, post haste.

Getting Started is intended to be a program, not just a single publication. It's aimed squarely at people like you—those with an obvious passion for boatbuilding, but minimal experience. We'll adapt the program to your concerns. That's what the web site is for. And I'll personally cut you a stem and mail it to you if you don’t get it on the third try.

~Matt Murphy
Editor, WoodenBoat

[Stu Fyfe]

How's THAT for service! Thank you for your reply to this thread Matt. Keep up the great work. That's what sets WoodenBoat apart from other publications.

[brad9798]

EXCELLENT, Matt!

Wow.

That gave me chills.

Heed it, Kevin!

Brad

[Tar Devil]

So, Kevin, how do you feel about your 5.99 USD investment now?

Later,

Phil

[kevindtimm]

Matt was also kind enough to post this same reply to my email, I recv'd it at 7:30pm CST on Saturday. This is absolutely service above and beyond the call of duty. WAY above! As I mentioned to Matt, I will be building this craft, however now I have to wait a little bit, just because the next 3 weekends are completely booked (son's b'day, vacation, you know, the usual).

One note though, to botebum; you mention that familiarty with the terminology is a prerequisite to the beginning of this (or any other) hobby. I agree and hoped/expected that this would be done in the plans. There were quite a few terms dropped that are certainly not a part of everyday conversation (at least around the non-boating world). Not finding them in the mag or the plans was a surprise. Finding them on the net was a pleasant surprise, but still, what of the poor fella (or gal) who doesn't have i'net access?

Anyway, you'll be hearing more from me soon (and pictures to follow) -- I promise.

[mcdenny]

Please do keep us posted. I, for one, would be interested in your progress and pitfalls.

Don't feel too newbieish about the jargon. I've been around boats all my life. Dad was a boat builder and I've built a dozen or so. This spring I signed up as a volunteer deckhand/grunt on a 154' sparred length schooner. They use a lot of nautical terms I don't understand. We are all learning - that's what makes life interesting.
http://www.achesonventures.com/maximgs/home_highlander_bg.jpg

[dbaker]

Well, being a beginner or not even that really, I am just reading about boat, haven't cut a piece yet...

I thought that supplement was pretty good...terminology, pick up Greg Rossel's book... there you go...

But a note on the type size and illustrations, I am a graphic designer by trade and a professor of design and publications in the evening...

That said, the design and illustrations were superb, and very time intensive, I wish my students would do that level of work...
So keep up the good work.

And the service... Will you cut a stem for me too... And sign it at the bottom... haha...

[botebum]

For those without internet access- dictionary, encyclopedia, library.
Think of the whole thing as a learning process. Bring what you know to the table and use that to gain more knowledge. Like I tell my kids- "This ain't McDonalds. You gotta wait or do it yourself." Same thing with any new hobby. It's a process not an instant knowledge chip that can be implanted in your brain. The process of building your first boat includes learning, screwing up, remedying your screw-up and the satisfaction of fixing your problem and realizing a dream. Best of luck to you in your build. Keep asking questions and keep us up to date on your progress.

Doug

[Clinton B Chase]

The process of building your first boat includes learning, screwing up, remedying your screw-up and the satisfaction of fixing your problem and realizing a dream.

And it keeps going on and on...my instructor from The Landing School who has been building for 25 years is still doing all the above...the difference he is going through the process more efficiently and still having fun b/c he accepts that perfection is but a dream, but one that musn't be brushed aside, and yet his boats come out nicer and nicer all the time. This is what draws me to boat building...figuring stuff out, striving for your personal best, getting results, and enjoying the use of the boat while you dream of the next project. I hope I can get students interested in boat building enough to begin grappling with these things. I might have them do it with the Lumberyard skiff in fact.

Cheers,
Clint

[cs]

Just yesterday our in house accountant was talking about boats. I let him borrow my latest issue of Wooden Boat and he seemed real interested in the Lumberyard Skiff. He may look at doing that and seeing if it can be changed enough to add a small outboard motor.

Chad

[kevindtimm]

Made some calls about wood, HD/Lowes doesn't do anything nice enough. Called the local lumberyard, they don't do 1x10, only 1x8 or 1x12. $3.32 and $4.95 per foot respectively. $320 just in the 4 side pieces. Kinda took me by surprise, I was expecting less than half that. Still, it's pretty inexpensive for a ~14' boat!

The neat thing is that I have two 4x4 pieces of Black Walnut (one a little more than 2', the other a little less than 4') that I've had sitting around for the last 10 years that are just calling out to be the outer stem piece (to be left unpainted, of course). Any thoughts on this?

[MPM]

FYI, Kevin et al:

I've been in touch with a specialty pine dealer here in Maine, and asked them to give a quote for packing and shipping (to several locales) a materials kit for the lumberyard skiff. This mill specializes in select wide pine, and they do cedar, too. I envision a package that would include wood for the sides and for a double-planked cedar bottom. I'm telling you this now, prematurely, in case it affects purchasing decisions. I'm leaving town until next Wednesday, and expect an answer by the time I return.

WB would have no financial interest in this kit. I jumped on this research when I heard a few groans from far off places about the lack of availability of suitable material for this boat. More soon--
Matt

[Tar Devil]

Matt, you are Da Man!

Later,

Phil

[mcdenny]

One foot of 1x12 is one board foot. Decent wood for $5/bd ft is a good price.

[rbgarr]

Just yesterday our in house accountant was talking about boats. I let him borrow my latest issue of Wooden Boat and he seemed real interested in the Lumberyard Skiff. He may look at doing that and seeing if it can be changed enough to add a small outboard motor.

Chad

A similar size boat that is already a proven design for outboards (I've seen on and it's a beauty) is the Bluegill by Steve Redmond.

http://www.sredmond.com/index_boat.htm

A local guy built one and came by under power by while I was out rowing in my m-i-l's skiff (which is almost a spitting image of the TLS!) The TLS would not do as well as the Bluegill under power.

[Steve Lansdowne]

A thought I had while looking at the LS plans was that in some parts of the country, getting some of that lumber would not be easy, but the fine folks back East in boat building country may not have fully considered that. Still, their goal is to teach/excite one about boat building. Even if you don't build the LS, getting an idea of what goes into it from the free WB supplement is a bargain. Other boats, such as the Bluegill mentioned above (one plank per side), can be built of marine plywood which, while not univerally easily available either, might be a better choice for someone who is less interested in "traditional construction" and more interested in having a small boat that they built themselves and would enjoy for some time. Chances are there is a place not too far from you that sells marine plywood. Tom (Thomas J.) Hill's best seller in paperback, Ultralight Boatbuilding, features step by step information on building Flapjack, a cousin of Bluegill.

[NGrace]

This is a good thread, thanks all for the posts. I too am a novice builder, really novice. Have never built a boat, but have restored a couple and am currently working on a 19' Bank dory. Boat had some rot, had to remove the transom and will be facing replacement of the inner stem (arrgh!). Are there any good books on cutting stems and the process of it? I have Gardner's dory book, but don't believe it covers cutting stems. I'm a little leary about cutting a stem with a changing bevel.

Thanks for any help.

Nate

[KNOCKABOUT]

Kevin, I'm not familiar with the LS, but gleaning from what you've said so far, I'm not sure you're quite ready to build any boat. Getting familiar with some of the terminology is usually a primary task with any hobby. Assuming that a complete novice can slap together a usuable boat in 3-4 days is naive. I don't mean to insult you. Be patient with any hobby you undertake and get to know some of the lingo and the ins and outs. We(the forumites) are here to try and help in any way we can(well, most of us). Stick with it, give it your best shot, and welcome to the forum.

Doug

True dat. I spent years in the navy, years sailing frozen snot, and at least six more coveting wooden boats before I even got close to one. And I still haven't built one! Just refinishing ones I find for free! It'll be some years before I build one m'self. But when I do, I sure will know what the heck I'm doing. Just be patent and ask lots of questions. Thats what we're here for.

[rbgarr]

Matt-

Please post here, on Rudderposts, and on the LS Forum if this arrangement comes to pass. I'd be interested in hearing details about a package.

D. Tew

FYI, Kevin et al:

I've been in touch with a specialty pine dealer here in Maine, and asked them to give a quote for packing and shipping (to several locales) a materials kit for the lumberyard skiff. This mill specializes in select wide pine, and they do cedar, too. I envision a package that would include wood for the sides and for a double-planked cedar bottom. I'm telling you this now, prematurely, in case it affects purchasing decisions. I'm leaving town until next Wednesday, and expect an answer by the time I return.

WB would have no financial interest in this kit. I jumped on this research when I heard a few groans from far off places about the lack of availability of suitable material for this boat. More soon--
Matt

[MPM]

Will do, Dave. I spoke to the mill's owner yesterday; he assured me he'd work up a quote by early next week. I asked him to include the pine boards for the sides and the cedar for a double-planked bottom (if he can do that... his mill may be limited to 1/2", and the double-planked bottom requires 3/8" stock.) He'll provide examples of shipping costs to a several locations around the country. Back soon--
Matt

[Frank E. Price]

I think the coolest thing about the Lumberyard Skiff project is that it is an attempt to get people new to boatbuilding started right off with real wood rather than plywood. For people who absolutely can not be persuaded that a cross-planked skiff is easier, cheaper, and quicker to build than a resin/glass-sheathed ply box, there are always plans available from Bolger and others.

But WB has set off on what I think is a truly noble endeavor. And I would think that anyone who is interested enough in traditional construction to go ahead with this skiff would be self-motivated to learn the lingo. Not for everyone I guess, but I think picking up some of the history (or a lot of it) of traditional boatbuilding adds to the pleasure of building small boats. I have built several ply skiffs, but the latest skiff is my favorite and there is no ply or glue in it.

Is WB returning to it's earlier glory?

Frank

[Ethan]

Update on the materials kit?

[MPM]

As promised last week, here's the result of discussions with a specialty pine mill in Mercer Maine, regarding a materials kit for the Lumberyard Skiff:

There will be no complete kit from this mill, but you can buy the difficult-to-obtain stuff (the long, wide sideboards) from them. Having purchased a house full of flooring from this business a few years ago, I can vouch for its quality: This mill specializes in beautiful, wide, white pine, and carefully dries it to 6-8%moisture content. Their product far exceeds what you'll find in an average lumberyard. It's reasonably priced, too, at around $3/board foot for the select grade. Shipping, however, is the problem. Crating and then shipping just a few boards to a remote US destination may prove prohibitive for you. (In fact, the mill has a policy of 250 board foot minimum order, for that reason.) But maybe you want to order some extra, for flooring, or furniture, or another boat or two (keep one… sell one to pay for the materials….). That might make it worthwhile for you. And, if you’re in New England, you could make a weekend of it and drive to Mercer to pick the stuff up yourself.

While a kit would be wonderful for this boat, the idea will take a while to develop—if it happens at all. So, to satisfy those who are itching to get going on the boat now, here's the name of the mill. Order your sideboards and some white cedar bottom planks from them if you can balance the shipping costs with your requirements.

One other thought: They sell boards up to 20" wide. You could eliminate the side-plank glue-up with stock of that dimension, which will save you some money on epoxy. It will also save you from a messy gluing operation. The time and money saved there might just be worth the shipping cost.

Wood Idea
2158 Bacon Road
Mercer, ME 04957
Tel: (207) 587-4832
www.pineflooringdirect.com

[Spokaloo]

Regardless of the lumber situation, Im dying to see a mast, rudder, and sailplan!

E

[Spokaloo]

Hm, interesting. Only problem is Im not a terribly bright person!

I might just build her after the Thames and Diablo are done, and when the sail info rears its head, I will go that direction.

Thanks!

E

[Ray Frechette Jr]

About the interest in the design. Kudos for trying to get people interested, but with the design itself, why spec lumberyard stock sawn boards?

Strikes me that marine ply woiuld be quicker, easier, stronger, lighter, cheaper, and less likely to leak.

And with bent marine ply panels, design options open up for even more shapely boats.

Close to $4.00 a bd ft for clear pine suitable for the sides? And then you still have relatively heavy pine boards that don't bend all that much.

Not to say I don't have appreciation for clinker or plank on frame construction, and I see the point of learning board edge gluing and prepping, and caulking of seams, but to be honest, thsi design doesn't do a whole lot for me to go spend that amount of money.

[geeman]

I think its a great 1st build design.Nothings perfect but building with board as opposed to ply gets them started on the right foot.

[Spokaloo]

Makes sense to me, they are using lumber that is readily available nationwide since you can get it at your local lumber supplier whether its a box store or a town yard. Out here (west), its just as easy to find said lengths of clear WRC, which just might work on that boat as well.

E

[rbgarr]

Thanks for doing the legwork Mike!

As promised last week, here's the result of discussions with a specialty pine mill in Mercer Maine, regarding a materials kit for the Lumberyard Skiff:

[Cecil Dowdy]

Thanks for posting your concerns, Kevin. Having worked with the illustrator and author of Getting Started, I feel compelled to respond--although the already-posted responses say much of what I want to say. A few additional points:

1) Our aim with these drawings was for transparent information delivery--minimal text, maximum visual information. While they look simple, they were in fact extremely labor-intensive to produce--much more so than photographs and words would have been. Which isn't to be defensive. Rather, it's to urge you to give this project a try if you're inclined to. Questions will emerge as you proceed, and you may find their answers springing from the drawings. Or you may not; If you don’t, I invite you to either e-mail me personally or post questions to the Getting Started Forum. I guarantee that you'll hit snags in this or any first-time boatbuilding project, and that, if you stick with it, you'll translate those snags into lessons learned.

2) Stems can be mind-benders. There's a lot of stuff coming together there. We were tempted to do one with a consistent bevel, but that would have diminished the visual and functional appeal of this boat. So you have to learn to cut a changing bevel. This element of the project is full of lesson material. Learn to do it, and your world will be opened to far more complex projects. Make a few practice stems of cheap framing material if you find this process intimidating. It will become clear.

3) Our aim with this project is to build boatbuilders, not to sell plans. Maynard offers plans to people who want them, but there's enough information in the publication to build the boat. Enlarge the plans on a photocopier if you need to. They needn't be full sized--just large enough so you can read the figures.

4) We're publishing a glossary of terms on the Getting Started web site. If we've missed any, post the confounding word or e-mail me. We'll publish a definition, post haste.

Getting Started is intended to be a program, not just a single publication. It's aimed squarely at people like you—those with an obvious passion for boatbuilding, but minimal experience. We'll adapt the program to your concerns. That's what the web site is for. And I'll personally cut you a stem and mail it to you if you don’t get it on the third try.

~Matt Murphy
Editor, WoodenBoat




Hello,
I am new at this, my first boat, but the sideboards and inter stem seem to go fine using the LS instructions , however on the page "Stem & Sideboard Assembly" step C. sezs to slather on a generous coating of 3m 5200 adhesive , so how do I remove the 3/8 "
bolts after the adhesive cures? What am I missing? also why do so many posters think that 5200 is not the best choice?

Thanks for your great starter article and guide

cecil

[jimmy lee]

Hey! Kevindtimm, I built the LYS the winter before last. She is an easy build. Send me your e-mail address and I'll send some pictures. I can row Her or sail Her. I made a sprit-sail for Her, and I used leeboards instead of a dagger board, more room in the boat. Any way she is very inexpensive to build. Pine boards,epoxy, latex house paint,varnish if you want on some parts, and have fun. I'm using Her for the second season with the original paint. Good luck. Sincerely,Jimmy Lee.

[jimmy lee]

Hey, Guys. Wrap the 3/8s bolts with wax paper first, that way the glue of choice doesn't stick to the bolts,

[jimmy lee]

I've used west system epoxy through out my boat. I learned to work with this epoxy and like it. This epoxy holds like iron. My boat is two years old and no problems. She does sit on a trailer more that in the water. She is in the water on the week-ends only. I'll have to give Her a paint job this fall or winter, cause of the wear she has taken.

[jimmy lee]

Oh! Kevin, the LYS was my FIRST boat ever to build. I've gotten most all of my knowledge from,"GETTING STARTED IN BOATS", of the Woodenboat magazine. I have also bought books from the bookstores, and this forum is PRICELESS, in information, and opinions. Anyway you look at it, IT'S GREAT!!!

[jimmy lee]

Kevin,I bought the prints from,Maynard Bray. I'm very glad that I did. The print shows there is a taper in the stem. You can use a spook shave to shave in the taper. The prints came in handy for me. Anyway I'm building two other boats now. One for my Son, LUTRA LAKER and a PDRACER for Me.

[BikeBob659]

Kevin ,

I agree with Jimmy Lee. Build it you won't be sorry. Real wood is a joy to work with. I get stopped at every ramp by people checking it out. Yesterday had an old quohauger down in R.I. go about 1/2 a mile out of his way to check it out. He remembered when the average Joe actually built wooden boats.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3131/2571089297_aa60d39b82_b.jpg

[Pete Dorr]

Bikebob

Fine looking boat you have there.

Do us a favor though and take the price tags off those oars.

Pete

[jimmy lee]

I'm trying to post a picture of my LYS to this forum. I hope this works.<imgsrc="http://www.photobucket.com/jimmylee06jpg"> for my picture. I can e-mail pictures but this is new to me.

[jimmy lee]

file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/User/Desktop/LYS%20Sailing%20launch%20day%20003.jpg

[SMARTINSEN]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2184/2691125125_6401015e80_m.jpg
jimmy lee, in order to post a photo you need to open an account at Flickr or Photobucket, or the like, and post your photo there. You cannot post directly from your desktop to the WB server

When you want to post a picture, post a reply, and press the "insert image" icon. In Firefox, you can right click to copy and paste the image location.

Hope this helps, I would like to see your LYS.

[jimmy lee]

Thanks, Steve. I'm still trying to learn how to operate this computer. It is fruastrating at times, being I'm basically self taught. Thanks for the info, again. Jim Berkland

[jimmy lee]

http://s272.photobucket.com/albums/jj198/jimmylee_06/th_LYSSailinglaunchday003.jpgfirst pic on forum (first%20pic%20on%20forum)

[jimmy lee]

THANK YOU STEVE!!!!! I got it done!!! Here is a picture for the first time on this forum,WOW!!!!

[jimmy lee]

http://s272.photobucket.com/albums/jj198/jimmylee_06/th_sundayboatride015.jpgmy second picture on forum,wow! I'm learning

[jimmy lee]

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj198/jimmylee_06/LYSSailinglaunchday003.jpg?t=1216744884

[jimmy lee]

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj198/jimmylee_06/sundayboatride015.jpg?t=1216745009

[jimmy lee]

Steve, I finally have got it. I wanted the pics to be large enough so one can see better. Sincerely,Jimmy Lee. Here is my e-mail, sjberkland@ameritech.net I'm building another boat at present.

[jimmy lee]

For anyone's info, I built the sail portion of the LYSby my own dimensions and ideas. I'm using leeboards on Her. This winter She may get a centerboard installed. I may make a larger sail also,maybe 75sqft.

[SawmillBrook]

http://snowgooseconstruction.blogspot.com/

Kevin... I was in your position some time ago...i.e. I knew zero about boat building... but worse, I was still iffy on design and skill level.

The difference, I think, is approach. I chose stitch and glue because it looked more straight forward than traditional approaches. But it's still wood and it's still a boat and it takes skill, patience and a total lack of hubris in the process...

Anyway, read my blog, I just started it and it'll be added to over the next few weeks...

Boat building is a PROCESS... it's hard, but it's worth it. And guess what, you need people to help you like the fine people on this board - don't alienate them.

Best, Andrew

[SMARTINSEN]

Great job!

I like the colors.