Information needed!! 1948 Sparksman Stevens Sailboat

[Jenna]

My parents bought a house and with it came a Sailboat that was left their! It is a 1948 34ft all wood Sparksman Stevens Sailboat.The previous owner of the house had bought this sailboat for her boyfriend to restore. Things didn't work out and she sold the house and didn't want to deal with this HUGE Sailboat. I don't know ANYTHING about boats and would just like it out of my yard. What i really would appreciate is if i could get some sort of a price range for a boat like this. I think its in good shape for its age,but again i don't know anything about boats. I plan on putting it up for sale for best offer.I do have the title. Any sort of information would be apprecited.
Thanks!

[Dave Fleming]

The more details the better and, the more photos the better.
Nice to keep yer where'bouts a secret too.:rolleyes:

[Jenna]

Sorry if i had more info i would give it to you! Im going to try to post pictures,but my computer is very slow. I know nothing about boats which is why i seached for a forum,and just was wondering if old wood sailboats are worth anything or if i should pull it out to my burn pile! Im in Michigan

[Thorne]

Take it to a boat broker, he'll know all there is to know, and can market it a lot better than you can. He will also know if there are any title issuses and how to solve them, which I suspect there are...commercial marinas have to deal with this all the time, and even when half-sunk, getting title to an abandoned boat can be VERY complex.

[Jenna]

Alright i'll look into doing that since i have no idea what this thing is worth if anything.
Thanks

[Concordia...41]

If you end up just wanting to get rid of the boat, please consider contacting Bruce at the Woode Boat Rescue Foundation (or similar organization) before you just commit it to the burn pile.

http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/

Good luck in your search for information and in making a decision on what to do.

- M

[S/V Laura Ellen]

I'll take it if you don't have a home for it, just to save it from the burn pile.

[RGM]

Ok, you're somewhere in Michigan, and you have a wood S & S sailboat. Is there a builders plaque anywhere? Look for a series of numbers carved in a structural member of the boat. Is there a name or any paperwork on board the boat? Think of it as an Easter Egg Hunt. If you find some numbers you can get alot of info. Armed with enough info you can contact S & S in New York. They might be able to help. Did it myself a few months ago. They were very helpful. There are other resources for searches also, but first things first.
First thing is to have it surveyed by someone that is a NAMS or SAMS marine surveyor that is close to you. Taking that one step further, this individual needs to have a sound reputation as a wood boat surveyor.
Do not take it to a broker first, do not use a surveyor recommended by a broker. Either case can be alot like asking the fox to tend the hen house.
I'm sure that there are some WB Forumites that live close to you that could steer you towards a suitable surveyor. Or perhaps steer you towards a boatyard or shipyard that works with wood boats. If you end up at a boat/shipyard, ask the shipwright foreman (or similar person) what surveyor he would hire to perform a "Pre-Purchase Inspection/Survey" on a wood boat that he himself was going to buy.
Or, you could just go to the NAMS or SAMS websites and do a search for surveyors close to you. Good luck.

[rbgarr]

Here is a 1947 30' S&S design that has been for sale for quite a while. The boat is in the water as far as I can tell and has been altered by the addition of a fiberglass-type sheathing on the bottom to forestall leaking.

http://tinyurl.com/qyhuf

Don't get too excited by that asking price because the market for 50-60 year old wood sailboats is thin (not a lot of buyers) and getting interest can be a hit or miss proposition. One advantage "may be" that the boat has always been kept in fresh water, and if taken care of in a reasonable way, may be in a less corroded condition than a 'salt water' boat. No telling about that until a survey is done, however.

You may wish to have an 'appraisal survey' done (similar to a house comparison) for price setting, but leave any pre-purchase survey up to a potential buyer, due to the generally greater expense of that type of work. As mentioned before NAMS, the National Association of Marine Surveyors may be able to direct you to someone capable of doing either or both kinds of surveys.

You can also advertise the boat on eBay.com, by-the-sea.com and (perhaps) on Yachtworld.com

S&S has their own brokerage and though they deal mainly in VERY expensive and large craft, they may be inclined to give you suggestions. You would need to provide them with the location, photos and an accurate description of the condition of and equipment on the boat.

Good luck-

[StevenBauer]

Isn't Ed's Phoenix a 34' Sparkman and Stevens Weekender? Same design as Hinkley's Sou'wester 34. Does it look like this one?

http://yawlcat.home.att.net/sspics.htm

It's really hard to put a value on something like this without having someone knowledgable take a real close look. If the keel needs replacing it could be worth $1. (Isn't that what Ed paid?:)) It it has just been through a professional restoration it could be worth hundreds of thousands.

RB is right. A pre-purchase survey by an experienced surveyor from NAMS ( www.nams-cms.org ) or SAMS ( www.marinesurvey.org )

Keep us informed. :)

Steven

[Hwyl]

I wonder if it's Dutch built

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

De Vries Lentsch, or Pennsylvania?

[yorgie]

Fits the M.O. of the dutch.Make absurd/outrageous but plausible claim and watch woodenboat guys go into conniptions.

[Jenna]

Thank you for all the helpful reply's. I quess i need to look for a plaque or some numbers. If it helps this boat does have a living space in it. A little stove and couches,maybe they all do again i have no knowledge of any type of boats. I do believe someone would be happy to have it and i think its in very restorable condition. Im hoping to get some pictures up soon if my computer cooperates.Don't worry i will give it away before it goes on the burn pile!

[Katherine]

Where in Michigan? (if this is not Dutch)

[KNOCKABOUT]

I'd take that thing in a minute... Let me know what you decide...

[Jenna]

Katherine i live out in nowhere land, the biggest town someone might know is Sandusky Michigan(still not a very big town). I don't understand the "Dutch" thing. If its a joke than ok i quess i never thought i would have a Giant Sailboat in my yard either. The only thing thats saving it is i have alot of land and no neighbors. My kids want it taken out in the woods and made into a playhouse,but i really would like someone to take it that would appreciate it.

[S/V Laura Ellen]

I'd take that thing in a minute... Let me know what you decide...

Hey buddy, I'm in line first!:D

[S/V Laura Ellen]

Katherine i live out in nowhere land, the biggest town someone might know is Sandusky Michigan(still not a very big town). I don't understand the "Dutch" thing. If its a joke than ok i quess i never thought i would have a Giant Sailboat in my yard either. The only thing thats saving it is i have alot of land and no neighbors. My kids want it taken out in the woods and made into a playhouse,but i really would like someone to take it that would appreciate it.

I could drive up this weekend and have a quick look, let you know whats up (no guarantees) if you are interested. Send me a PM if you are interested.

[Katherine]

Why don't you just say you're an hour or so north of Detroit in the thumb area? S/V, if you drive up, feel free to stop in and say Hi.

[Concordia...41]

Jenna - "Dutch" is a person or persons who posts under various names. Some of his/her posts are quite clever, some are really lame.

There was one post down in the bilge where (under another name) he wanted to know if he should "let" his wife get a boob job or spend the money on a 4-wheeler for himself. :rolleyes:

Thankfully I didn't have time to reply, but for a couple of days folks chimed in with well-researched answers about the surgery, risks, and the feminists chimed in with how she should do what she wants, self-esteem issues, and let's just say some of the gentlemen, who don't always act like it, offered various other suggestions. :o

At any rate, this person is a troll - someone who posts questions or topics just to see what kind of replies and/or rise he can get out of folks. It may be one person, or multiple people, but a lot of the folks here - you see how naturally helpful they try to be - have gotten burned by this Dutch character.

I don't for a second think your situation and questions are anything but legitimate, but a new member with a 'hey, I've got a boat that I don't know what it is' is kind of like the bait that this Dutch person would dangle in the water.

Hopefully this helps you understand the Dutch reference.

- Margo

[Milo Christensen]

Jenna:

I'm definitely interested in helping you figure all this out and may even buy the boat from you.

I'm in Lansing, I'd be glad to run up any day this week after work or this coming Saturday (07/22/06) and take a look and let you know what's what. I'll also take a boat load of digital pics in case I decide to pass on the boat. Otherwise, I'll be out of town returning Monday, 07/31/06.

As you can see, you'd have no problem getting rid of this boat at a reasonable price. Anything I can do to help, let me know.

You can send me a private message with your email address if you are interested, and then I'll send you my contact details.

[KNOCKABOUT]

Hey buddy, I'm in line first!:D

LOL. Duly noted.

[Jenna]

My computer has been down this weekend,but my friend will start a new thread with pictures of the boat tommorow. Yes it is for real im not some "Dutch". I don't have that much time on my hands!

[Paul Pless]

I don't have that much time on my hands!

LOL

[Katherine]

Milo, if you want a passenger let me know.

[michigandave]

Hello All, long time lurker and first time poster.

I'm replying to this thread because I know (third hand) the owner of this boat. A friend of mine knows and lives near the owner and last night my friend stopped by and obtained 15 or 20 photos of the boat.

I told him what to look for (i.e. rot, seams, completeness, etc.) and what parts of the boats to take pictures of: bow, stern, keel, port hull, starboard hull, deck, cockpit, interior, etc. He brought those back, plus the title and registration for the boat. I can provide a Hull number on request.

It will take until lunch (or later tonight) for me to get the pictures, they are still on the PC and I have to resize them, post them to the web (any suggestions for a photo hosting site?) and look up Norm's directions for posting photos on the forum. In the meantime, I can email the full-size photos to any interested parties.

This is the friend's non-professional/non-nautical take on the boat:

It has a Gray Motor (that's the name on the engine) . The sails are in large nylon bags and of what I saw they look good. The point where the cabin meets the deck at the front there's some wood rot and the only other spot is about foot or so above the water line on the end of one of the boards. All the trinkets (i.e. hand cranks small misc.shives )are in the boat and they are brass (ebay!). Gaps in the wood are minimum. I only found one spot that I could see light and it was very small. There are two anchors. The inside of the boat under the floor planks appears to be in pretty good shape.It has been stored inside untill about a year ago. The keel seems to be iron not lead.

My take after seeing the pictures:

The Rot on this boat (after seeing the pictures): there's rot damage on the forward end of the cabin structure (both sides) that extends into a deck beam and the carlins. It looks like someone tried to patch the corners of the cabin house without addressing the rot issue.

The paint is blowing off the cabin structures, the deck (cedar, pine, or mahogany, but not teak) was varnished but is mostly peeling. There's also one board on the port topsides about one or two feet above the water line and about three quarters of the way back that is rotten for about 4 inches, probably more.

There was 2 inches standing water in the bilge, but my friend pulled the drain plugs to empty the water out and said that after the water had drained the wood of the hull looked OK to him.

The boat was stored indoors until about last year, then out in the open for about a year. The boat is currently on a trailer which was used to move the boat from it's original location to it's current location, about 5 miles distance at about 10 mph. I'm told that the trailer is included with the boat and probably will need new tires. Don't know about the wiring, etc. You'll also need a heavy-duty tow vehicle - they used a Dodge Ram 2500 to move the boat and trailer and the truck was barely up to the job.

My friend has offered to meet up with anyone interested in the boat and guide him/her/them to the boat's location. Just reply to this thread or send me a PM.

[Milo Christensen]

Hey, thanks for the update. Sounds like a real good project for me. I'd love to see the boat pix first, but would also like directions.

[Jenna]

Hey (michigandave) yes its really ME!! Thanks for the help and i hope you can get pictures up soon! So "Concordia" i quess your big "dutch" theory is out to Sea!!!!!!! Im leaving this up to michigandave now since he has seen it and has a much better computer and more boat knowledge than i. Thanks to those with the helpful information!!!

[michigandave]

Hey Jenna! This is Dave, but not the Dave you know - I work at the same company as your Dave (six degrees of separation and all that). I guess you can say that "michigandave" is currently a group effort.

Oh, and please give Margo/Concordia a little leeway; she's nice people and I don't think that she was trying to accuse you of being Dutch, just trying to explain the "Dutch" situation. Please understand, the forumites here have been abused/trolled by this guy for some time now, so it's not uncommon for some newcomers to get the once-over.

[michigandave]

This is the starboard side
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/starboad_view_small_2.jpg

This is the port side. I am told that the dark spot about 2 boards down from the sheer and about at the front of the cockpit is rot.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/port_view_small.jpg

Stern view. Although there appears to be discoloration at the starboard side, I'm told that there's no rot there.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/stern_view_4.jpg

The cockpit. The boat's mast is visible here on the right side of the photo.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/cockpit_view_aft_small.jpg

Looking forward in the saloon. Way far forward where the cabin house meets the deck is where the worst of the rot is located. I've seen other pictures that show it better, but they are still on the digital camera.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/saloon_view_fwd_small_3.jpg

This is the electrical panel.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/electrical_panel.jpg

The photo album for all of the pictures is located at
http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/?start=all

There are more pictures, I just haven't had a chance to get them all processed.

All of the parts for the boat seem to be there - sails, spars, rigging, winch handles, etc. The hardware also seems to be original, nearly all of the items are either bronze (i.e. Nav Lights) or stainless steel.

We couldn't locate a manufacturer's plate on the boat and the boat's title doesn't mention the make, model, or builder. I'm taking it on faith that this is a Sparksman & Stevens - others with more knowledge may have a better answer.

Again, if anyone wants further information, just drop me a PM.

Just a disclaimer, I have NO financial interest in this boat. If I had the time, money, and location to take on this boat, I'd be very tempted. I just happen to be someone who actually got a chance to finally contribute something to this forum after lurking about for 7 years. I also think (in my amatuer opinion) that this boat can and SHOULD be purchased and restored - wooden sailboats on the Great Lakes are a rarity.

[Paul Pless]

Nice work guys getting the info out there pretty quick.

She definately looks to deserve better than being hauled into the woods to make a playhouse.

[KNOCKABOUT]

"There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures... and the Dutch."

Michael Caine aka Nigel Powers

[Milo Christensen]

What's the name on the bow? This boat looks familiar to me from years ago.

[michigandave]

There's no name on the bow. That's where the Michigan boat registration numbers are, or rather, used to be. I've got a 2.5 MB image of each side of the boat. The vinyl numbers are gone, but I can still make out the outline of "MC" and the next four digits. The last state registration sticker's still on both sides, 1995.

[tony morales]

Hello Jenna, I looked through a listing of Sparkman and Stephens designs and did not see anything at 34' even in that time frame of 1948. Here are the closest i could find-
Design # date Name/class Loa dwl beam draft type
208 1937 Weekender 35'1/2" 27'- 9'6" 5'7" sloop
280 1939 Cirrus 33'6" 26'- 8'10" 5'6" " "
297 1939 Privateer Class 35'4" 24'6" 8'9.5" 5'5" '' ''
387 1940 Windward 33'2' 26'- 10'0.5" 5'- " "
730 1946 Maple Leaf class 35'2" 24' - 7' 10" 5'6" " "

An accurate set of measurements would help narrow it down and I would trust more than a date which could be wrong. I'm presently in New England for the rest of the summer and will be going to the Mystic where Sparkman and Stephens stores their plans and could hepl I.D. this boat, I've spent many days there researching both my 1939 S&S Design #264 Voyager Class built by Lawley in 1939 and my 1905 Lawley built Tender. I love solving puzzels and if you don't get a quick taker on this boat I willing to travel to obtain it , but I know I have to get in line! Already won the lottery with my Voyager!

[rbgarr]

It is a 1948 34ft all wood Sparksman Stevens Sailboat.

To find out if this is true, send the pictures to Sparkman and Stephens at www.sparkmanstephens.com/

or The Sparkman and Stephens Association at www.s-and-s-association.org/

They should be able to confirm whether the boat is an S&S design or not.

[Hwyl]

I'm the fisrst one to post the "Dutch" possibility. I'm now eating humble (Dutch apple) pie.

[Ed Harrow]

Not a Weekender (#208).

Tony, where are you hanging your hat at the moment?

[tony morales]

Ed I'm in Auburn Ma. helping a friend with his buisness and getting ready to move Voyager to a temp holding spot until I rebuild a trailer for her and deterime where I'll rework her , here in New England or take back south to Florida. Proximity to resources and face to face advice favor New England, but free location for storage and the internet combined with forums like this help in answering questions . Once the boat is moved traveling to have a face to face is still cheaper than keeping it Mass.

[Ed Harrow]

Tony, check your PMs. Ed

[michigandave]

Quick Update on the Mystery Boat....

The boat's Hull ID Number prefix indicates that the number was assigned by the State of Michigan well after the boat was built; the HIN won't provide any info with regards to the boat's builder.

I have sent an email off to Sparkman & Stevens asking if they recognized the boat, providing the HIN (for what it's worth), and a link to the pictures. I haven't heard back from them yet and won't be supprised if there isn't a response.

The suggestions for locating/contacting a marine surveyor are being heeded. We'll be providing the boat owner with the names of a couple of surveyors located within an hour's drive. After that, it's up to the owner to make contact with the surveyors. I'll instruct the owner to ask not for a full survey but for a quick once-over.

Funny thing - the owner had already contacted someone at a boat brokerage attached to a Detroit area marina; that person assured the owner that the boat had to be fiberglass because no wooden boat built so long ago would have lasted so long. I'm afraid that this might be the caliber of professional help the owner can expect to find.

The camera that had the rest of the pictures was taken back to the boat owners before the images could be retrieved; right now I've got no further photos.

I'm going to head up tomorrow morning to look at the boat myself. If anyone wants to meet up with us (the two Daves), send a PM or reply to this thread. Of course, most sane people would find something better to do on a warm summer day.

I've borrowed a camera from my company's graphics department to take some more pictures, both to replace the ones from the original camera and to get some more exterior shots. None of the photos so far have shown the cabin profile or the fore deck.

I'll also be looking for a builders plate and viewing other potential problem areas on the boat. The first Dave did a good job, but he's not familiar with sailboats, wooden or otherwise. I'm hoping that my slightly more experience may lead me to see things that weren't apparent at the first go around. Of course, please note that my experience is limited to some small fiberglass daysailers and a wooden Barnegat Bay sneakbox that years ago I mis-repaired to death.

Also, per the suggestion above, we're going be taking some basic measurements off the boat: length, beam, draft, etc. If there's any other measurements that would help, I'm open to suggestions.

[Katherine]

I had the Owens surveyed last summer and the gentleman did a very fine job with it. I think he drove 1-2 hours from northern Michigan see it. If you'd like, when I get home later, I can look him up and give you his info. If he can't do it he may know someone who can.

[Katherine]

As promised:
Ronald E. Postma
Standard Marine Surveying
2010 Wilson Rd. S.
East Jordan, MI 49727

Office: (231) 582-6446
ron@standardsmarine.com

[Don Kurylko]

I’d be very surprised if that is a Sparkman and Stevens design. However, I would put a small wager on it possibly being a Stevens from Nova Scotia. What do you think Michael (mmd)? The dog house, spoon bow and transom seem to be a bit of a give-away, I think. Not at all typical of S&S.

[michigandave]

Just a quick update....

We (Dave & Dave) paid another visit to the boat on Saturday. More importantly, a fellow forumite with experience in wooden boats also made the trip - his assistance was most appreciated.

There are some new photos to post, but I haven't yet had a chance to process them. I'll try to get them onto the web tonight.

We didn't find any indication that the boat is a Sparkman & Stevens. There are indications that the boat has been extensively modified at some point. I'll go into further detail later tonight.

[michigandave]

Katherine,

Thanks for locating and posting Ronald Postma's contact information. We will be forwarding the information to the owner.

[tony morales]

Sparkman and Stephens did not build boats they where and are naval architechs and a brokerage firm for boats. They licencsed both builders and individuals to build their designs for a fee. So there will not be a builders plate saying it was built by Sparkman and Stephens. A Hull number/ registration number and research may lead you back to who built it . An inquiry to the Antique boat Museum in up-state N.Y.; who retains Sparkman and Stephens brokerage records for that period may give you information as to the original client. If you have access to a library with Lloyds registar of American Yachts you could scan them page by page for the years prior and after to look for boats of similiar dimensions and locate builders /designers and owners . Having done this you may be able to track a portion of its history forward; this resource stopped in the late 1970's. This is only one of many meathods I have used with both my boat and others to try to tack a tail on the so called donkey!

[michigandave]

Tony,

Thanks for the info about Sparkman & Stephens. I knew that they were naval architects, but I didn't know that they were not yacht builders.

As for using a builder's plate...we've been thru the boat and found nothing: no builder plate, no hull number, no useful documentation.

The title for the boat was issued by the State of Michigan; it's HIN prefix indicates that the HIN was issued by the Michigan Secretary of State (aka "the DMV") in order for boats build prior to 1972(?) to comply with state regulations. That makes it also a dead end.

The only hope to establish the boat's make/model would be to match the pictures of the boat with another known boat. So far that's not panned out (possibly for a very good reason).

[michigandave]

As promised, here are the pictures from Saturday.

Dave and Dave met up with Allan and Jo Ann (of S/V Laura Ellen fame) near the location of the boat. Allan had responded to our offer to come help us.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/forumite.jpg

Only Allan is visible in this picture. Dave and Jo Ann both managed to avoid my camera, but Allan got caught with a 'deer in the headlights' look.

We took some measurements off the boat in question.

The title says that the boat is 34 feet 11 inches in length. We measured it at about 36 feet, but we included the bow pulpit. The beam measured out at 8 foot 6 inches.

This is the first third of the starboard side.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/starboard_1_3_small.jpg

You can see the mast boot just to the right of the ladder, on top of the cabin. Please note that the porthole on the right is bronze, but the one on the left is aluminum - probably not original.

This is the middle third of the starboard side.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/starboard_2_3_small.jpg

Take particular notice of the roofline at the yellow arrow. Unlike the rest of the roof, this part seems to be roughly patched together. The red arrow points to a seam in the side boards of the cabin. It might be just a coincidence that it lines up with the forward cabin line. The green arrows point to wooden shims that seem to be affixed to the cabin side, possibly added later.

It just may be that some one raised the back end of the cabin roof. Under the raised section there's just enough room to stand; forward of that, headroom gets shorter.

The two oval ports are definitely not original. The rest of the boat is all bronze; these exceptions stand out.

The last third of the boat. In this shot, Allan strikes a Captain Morgan pose while Dave has found a radio license for the boat. The name of the boat (according to this license) is 'Second Wind'.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/starboard_3_3_small.jpg

Towards the stern you can see where Allan has opened the hatch for the lazarette.

[S/V Laura Ellen]

Thanks Dave:
I thought we agreed that the photos with me in it would be deleted and never see the light of day.:D :D

[S/V Laura Ellen]

Here are some photos of fittings on the boat and some other shots.

http://www.aylard.ca/images/DSCF0050%204x6.jpg
Note the chunk of wood in the deadwood (look just above and to the right of the cross in the cradle bracing). The top bow corner of the block seems to be let into the keel of the boat weakening the backbone of the boat (IMHO).

http://www.aylard.ca/images/DSCF0051%204x6.jpg
Note the modifications to the keel. It appears that the keel has been lowered. The red mass ahead of the keel is addition weight (lead) added.

http://www.aylard.ca/images/DSCF0053%204x6.jpg
Back stay tensioner

http://www.aylard.ca/images/DSCF0054%204x6.jpg
reel winch for the swing keel

http://www.aylard.ca/images/DSCF0056%204x6.jpg
tensioner for the inner forestay - a few inches behind the forestay

http://www.aylard.ca/images/DSCF0057%204x6.jpg
2 reel winches on deck stepped mast

http://www.aylard.ca/images/DSCF0058%206x6.jpg
Inner forestay mast fittings - note the aluminum T-bar on the front of the mast

[michigandave]

....continued

These next photos show the rot that exists at the forward cabin house posts.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/port_cabin_rot_small.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/starboard_cabin_rot_small.jpg

There's been a false transom applied to the end of the boat, probably for cosmetic reasons. There's no telling what's under the wood (we didn't opt to perform exploratory surgery).
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/false_transom_small.jpg

Moving to the hull, ballast, deadwood, and rudder; this is a lump of lead that's been applied to the bottom of the boat. I find the curved board line unusual. I have to ask why someone would choose to cut a curve into a board in the deadwood, then match it with another board.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/starboard_lead_ballast_small.jpg

This is the other side of the lead ballast. The yellow arrow indicates the curve replicated on the port side. The blue arrow indicates a "filler chunk" of wood.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/port_lead_ballast_small.jpg

Further back of the lead ballast are two iron shoes. There's a drop-keel located between the shoes, operated by a winch on top of the cabin roof.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/iron_ballast_starboard_side_small.jpg

You can see the pivot bolt for the swing keel at the forward end of the shoes. Does it strike anyone else as unusual that the iron shoes are framed in with what appears to be 2 inch dimensional lumber?
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/iron_ballast_port_side_small.jpg

This is a straight-on view of the ballast from the bow, showing both the relative size of the width of the lead blob to the iron shoes. It also shows the cradle resting on the trailer.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/bow_view_small-1.jpg

[michigandave]

Thanks Dave:
I thought we agreed that the photos with me in it would be deleted and never see the light of day.:D :D

Sorry, the "Captain Morgan" pose was too good to resist:D :D :D !

[michigandave]

....continued

Moving to the end of the iron shoes, there is more dimensional lumber framing the iron. I'm no expert, but the person who did this chose to use TWO short pieces of wood at the end of the iron (couldn't afford a long piece?) and jammed the intersection with more chunks of wood. Again, this doesn't match the fit and finish of the rest of the boat.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/port_deadwood_closeup_small.jpg

This is the keel deadwood between the iron shoes and the rudder. Again, this looks like it was patched together with whatever scraps were at hand.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/port_deadwood_closeup_2_small.jpg

This is the prop. Note the patchwork of wood. For what it's worth, the prop spins freely. I don't know whether that's bad or good.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/port_prop_small.jpg

Here's the rudder. The first thing that Allan did when he first saw the boat was comment on how the rudder seemed too small for the boat. Also note Allan framed by the prop aperature and Jo-Anne hiding behind the rudder (but she forgot to pull her feet up). I originally put in the yellow arrows to point out the wood scraps that are attached with drywall screws, but as an unexpected bonus they also serve to point out the people in the picture.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/port_rudder_small.jpg

Here's a full view of the starboard side of the boat, showing the entire sheer. To my eye, there's a bump in the sheer at the yellow arrow.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/starboard_sheer_small.jpg

[michigandave]

....continued

Allan had commented upon the fact that the rig of the boat showed considerable alterations; he said that it appeared that it had been altered to a cutter rig.

And, as Allen noted above, it appears that someone had butchered the keel on the boat. My guess is that the curved line in the deadwood above the lead bulb probably traced the front of the original keel. The current keel is a patchwork of wood scraps. The rudder is probably not original to the boat, but chosen to match the new shoal draft.

All of these improvements appear to have weakened the boat to the point that it's probably hogged. I am under the impression that there's supposed to be a strong backbone to a yacht -- but it looks like someone cut it out.

This boat in its day was probably a looker. The sprung mahogany deck, the woodwork, and the bronze hardware indicate a high level of quality. Someone probably got ahold of this boat and (in his eyes) "improved it". Why someone would think that a sailboat that's been designed (possibly) by the architects at Sparkman & Stevens needs improvement is beyond my understanding.

I don't think that there's now any point in proving whether or not this boat is a Sparkman and Stevens design. Is a boat this badly butchered still the original boat? Could it be legally sold as an original Sparkman and Stevens? I'm guessing that it can't.

The owner of the boat has been apprised of the condition of the boat. He's going to get a professional appraisal, possibly from the surveyor who looked at Katherine's Owens. If the boat is in sellable condition, he'll try selling it -- but if it doesn't sell before Fall, it'll be stripped of anything valuable and burned.

The owner has a pole barn on his property and if the boat is stripped and scrapped then he'll store anything of value and slowly sell it off one piece at a time. I hope this doesn't violate the self-promotion prohibition on this forum, but if anyone is looking for parts then they would be advised to start looking on Ebay in the fall.

There's a LOT of bronze hardware on this boat, a complete set. This includes 4 winches, mast and rigging hardware, bronze pulpits, etc. However, Allan has already called dibs on the bronze hand-operated bilge pump:
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/bilge_pump_small-1.jpg

If anyone wants to see the bigger pictures (1 MB max), go to
http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/?sc=1&multi=2&addtype=local&media=image

[tony morales]

Thank you michigan dave for the photos! In the aft hatch was there any sign of a prior mast step which would have made it originally a yawl? Are there any numbers /date onthe radio license I can track the name "Second Wind" through some of the sources I recommend, but also after WWII the FCC may have something in their records. I'll be going tol Mystic this week and I'll see what I can dig up!

[michigandave]

Tony,

There's no indication that the boat was ever yawl rigged. There's no step in the aft hatch and no chainplates for an aft mast.

I'll ask about the numbers/dates on the radio license. Some one is going to have to climb back into the boat to retrieve them.

[Katherine]

Any update on this thing?

[michigandave]

No update....maybe Monday.

[michigandave]

Update:

Sparkman and Stevens did reply to my query last Monday morning; I simply forgot to check my email until now. It's definitely worth noting that S&S responsed within one business day. I have belatedly expressed my thanks to them for their prompt response.

However, the news is not good for the boat -- my original email:


I was hoping that you might be able to inform me as to whether a boat is a Sparkman & Stevens design. I have the title for the boat from the current owner. The current owner just came into possession of the boat and was informed that it is a Sparkman and Stevens.

The title lists the Hull Identification Number as MCZ021961177, the Make of Craft as "Assembled", the Craft Year as 1948, and the length as 34 feet - 11 inches. I have pictures of the boat posted on the web at http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/?start=all (http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m226/michigandave/?start=all) .

Some people who have seen the above information don't believe that it's a Sparkman and Stevens and have further suggested that I try sending the information on to your organization.

If you can't help me out, I understand.

Thanks in advance


S&S's response:


Thank you for your e-mail.

We did search our files. Sorry to say we were not able to identify the boat in question. She might not be a Sparkman & Stephens design.

Best regards


This means that unless some solid documentation is found this boat probably isn't a Sparkman & Stevens design and can't be sold as such.

This boat just might have gotten closer to being stripped, cut up, and burned.

[Lew Barrett]

Dave,
I think your condition assessment is on target. The patchwork bottom is distressing, and was clearly visible in the photos. Even more problematic is the hogging. To my way of thinking, the provinance (is she an S&S design, etc) is less important than initial build quality, if she were a good design, regardless of who's pen in the first place, and the overall economic viability of any potential restoration. A hogged boat that's been cut up and butchered is a tough call regardless of who drew her. For a larger cruising boat, not having the benefit of provinance is just one more nail in the coffin. In other words, a good prospect demands a number of attributes, not just a pedigree. Anybody who has accomplished a ground up restoration will be aware of this because very few boats (the rarer runabouts being the probable exceptions) can support the expense that a real rebuild demands if the bones are broken.
Lew

[Hwyl]

The coastguard has 250 second wind's here http://www.st.nmfs.gov/pls/webpls/cgv_pkg.vessel_name_list

None sem to match this boat.

[Jenna]

This boat is going up for sale today August 7th at 12:00 on Ebay. If not sold it will be stripped in September.

[S/V Laura Ellen]

This boat is going up for sale today August 7th at 12:00 on Ebay. If not sold it will be stripped in September.

Good luck on the sale!

[Jenna]

Just wanted to update the thread and let you know that the boat has been sold to a man from South Dakota. He has restored 3 old wooden sailboats. So its not going to be stripped its going to be completed restored and he promised to send me pictures.So hopefully someday i can post them on this forum.
Thanks

[StevenBauer]

Great news Jenna. Thanks. :)

Steven

[nedL]

I came across her on Ebay last week, was glad to see some bids. Looks like things might turn out well for all involved. She is a good looking boat (though if salvageable she deserves at least a whole new & proper keel).