Traditional cam/jam/tube cleats for small boats?

[Thorne]

I'd like to keep my Chamberlain dory skiff as trad as possible, but am unsure what cleats to use to hold the jib and mainsheets. Currently I'm sailing by holding the active jibsheet and mainsheet in one hand, but that gets a bit wearing after awhile. I can wrap them around the seat riser, but that then wears away at the edges and paint.

The jibsheets lead aft through bronze rings lashed to the seat riser about midway between the first and second frames. The mainsheet leads down through a modern block attached to a padeye on the aft end of the CB case (padeye just visible in the pic below) and then is pulled aft (or up) to whatever location the helmsperson is occupying.

The seat riser (fore & aft support for the thwarts) is about the only thing handy to attach cleats to, as I'm sailing her while sitting on the removable floorboards just forward of the aft sawn frame.

http://www.luckhardt.com/newpaint2.jpg

I *could* put holes and small belaying pins in the forward edges of the sternsheets sides, but am afraid they'd not be functional for the needed quick releases required for dinghy sailing, plus would tend to snag other lines and PFDs.

Are the toothed slotted jam cleats a modern invention only?
http://www.go2marine.com/go2_structure/2/5/0/4/25041F-p.jpg

I can easily make up some wooden horn-type jam cleats (see below), but was (as above) hoping to avoid anything that might snag lines, clothing, etc.

http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/boat/matl/cleats.html (http://www.friend.ly.net/%7Edadadata/boat/matl/cleats.html)
http://www.friend.ly.net/%7Edadadata/boat/matl/jam.gif

The above page also shows some pins under thwarts, or plain old holes in the seat risers and frames, but I'm less than excited about both drilling large holes in my boat as well as the wear and tear on both wood and lines from using holes as cleats.

http://www.friend.ly.net/%7Edadadata/boat/matl/sheet_1.gif
http://www.friend.ly.net/%7Edadadata/boat/matl/sheet_3.gif
http://www.friend.ly.net/%7Edadadata/boat/matl/sheet_2.gif

I could also make up some thumb-type jam cleats (my thumb cleat for the snotter shown below), which have the advantage of only one projecting edge/part to snag lines and gear, but am not sure how well they'd hold either the jib or mainsheets, or take adjustments quickly.

http://www.luckhardt.com/spritboom-cleats.jpg

Any suggestions? Thanks!

[Keith Wilson]

I hate to say it, but nothing, absolutely nothing traditional works near as well as a good 'ol Harken cam cleat for a small boat sheet.

http://shop.sailnet.com/images/harken/150-280-338-65-412-23.jpg

[Thorne]

Yeah, I know -- on my other sailboats ('57 & '67 Blue Jay, SJ 21) I had a swivel arm with block and camcleat setup for the mainsheet, and camcleats for the jibsheets -- brilliant!

http://shop.torresen.com/shipsstore/utility/images/Harken/items/299.jpg

I dimly recall seeing a much more basic setup sorta like this in bronze offered on eBay -- but haven't found any suppliers listed online for anything new in bronze.

[outofthenorm]

Davey and Co sell 2 things that might interest you, Thorne. They have a cool little bronze tubular jam cleat, and various sizes of phenolic cam cleats. You can see their whole catalogue at R&W Rope warehouse.

www.rwrope.com

- Norm

[Thorne]

Yeah, I have the small brass tube jam cleat on my rudder from them. It chews up the line pretty badly -- had to change from Hempex to a modern cordage designed to replace wire rigging...

http://www.luckhardt.com/kickup-full1.jpg

I guess I could make up some tube jamcleats from heavy brass tubing, and dull the edges to reduce the line-eating effect -- but I like sheets to have a soft hand and that doesn't mix well with tube jamcleat design.

[paladin]

I dunno see anything wrong with a couple of small belaying pins....and they would look "correct" also....

[Thorne]

The reasons I'm trying to stay away from small belaying pins are several -

First, the release isn't quick enough for main and jib sheets on a teensey tender boat like mine. They are OK for halyards -- I have two on the mast partner and they are 'tres yare'...

;0 )

http://www.luckhardt.com/final-bow.jpg

Second, the pins would have to be set through the forward ends of the sternsheets, and I'd often have to reach aft to access them.

Third, the pins would snag the steering lines and everything else -- a real issue on a small boat.

I really need something like a bronze camcleat or jamcleat - no snagging, quick to set and faster to release.

Will be in the UK next week, and will check the chandelries in Falmouth and Devon for some cool Davy or other bronze hardware...can't afford it over here!

[George Ray]

The grove worn in the wooden hole/pin from continued use is a memory, a poem/story made tangible, physical, visual.

****************

These days things are just too darn prettyfied.
When I get a scratch, dent, stain .....it's a memory. Can't buy them, even on Rodeo Drive.

Took me a while to talk myself into that point of view when I backed into that tree in the Maine woods with my first ever new vehicle. But now, 5 years later, I can still picture my wife and I turning around at the dead end of the trail as we explored along the Machias River. If not for that dent the memory would be gone. So I keep it .....and a few others.

******************
The wooden horn cleats sound like a good idea. Shoud I send you a chunk of locust to make a few?

[Thorne]

Well, Mr. Poetical, thank you for that!

;0 )

The style reminds me a bit of my favorite poet, Gary Snyder -

Clearing the mind and sliding in
to that created space,
a web of waters streaming over rocks,
air misty but not raining,
seeing this land from a boat on a lake
or a broad slow river,
coasting by.

http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/connotations/chung121.htm

A single female mallard flies upstream--
Shooting the Hundred-Pace Rapids
Su Tung P'o saw, for a moment,
it all stand still.
"I stare at the water:
it moves with unspeakable slowness."
Dôgen, writing at midnight,
"mountains flow
water is the palace of the dragon
it does not flow away." http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/connotations/whalen81.htm

If I had built the boat I'd be a bit more cavalier about wearing grooves in the wood -- but since it is rather rare (out here) and built by the SF Maritime Museum classes, I regard myself more in the caretaker role.

I have some lovely white oak, my grandfather's wood rasps and a bandsaw -- so I'll make up what I need, thanks for the offer of the locust, though.

[Zane Lewis]

For my 10 cents worth I was just going to add the comment about using a standard wooden cleat with a loop like the picture from Thorne. The only issue then is that doing it up take a little longer. The short/long horn thumb cleat could also work well. Just jam the rope into the long tapered slot and pull to release.

But nothing can beat a jam cleat for small boat applications apart from assethetics.
Happy sailing Zane

[almeyer]

Thorne, let me know what solution you decide on. I'm kind of going through the same quandry myself.
Al

[Thorne]

If I can't find anything thrilling and affordable in the UK, I'll probably try some oak thumb/single horn jamcleats and see if they work well enough.

Failing that I **might** try to make up a modern top-slot jamcleat from oak -- depending on my confidence level at the time.

;0 )

I have some old nylon top-slot ones, just too durn stubborn to use 'em on this classic boat. We shall see....

[Figment]

Our own JDillon worked up a wooden camcleat-on-belaying-pin that I thought was pretty cool. I forget how he incorporated the spring.

Jack?

[Stu Fyfe]

Hard to beat jam cleats for function, but I agree they detract from the appearance of a traditional design. Bristol Bronze has some nice cam cleats that look better than the Harkens but they are expensive.
http://www.bristolbronze.com/products3.htm

[rbgarr]

If you can find some played out hollow bronze stanchions or something like (no mean feat in itself!) making tube cleats is a way to go. You'd have to fiddle with how and where to fasten them, how deep and smooth to make the vee so they'd hold the lines and let them run freely when released. You might even have to rig your sheets differently. But it could be worth the work if you're determined to have a trad. bronze fitting, and they are unusual.

Good luck.

[Thorne]

Ooooh - here's a new design I'd never seen before -- listed on eBay -

http://i2.ebayimg.com/03/i/07/e1/88/4c_1.JPG

( don't bid on 'em -- they are mine, Mine! MINE! BWHAHAHAHAHA! )

[rbgarr]

At $32 for the pair with two days to go in the auction you can have them:eek:

the rest of us will follow the bidding action at http://tinyurl.com/eopom

[Thorne]

Nah, I gave up at $28...will fall back on Plan B, make my own thumb-style jam cleats. Look nicer and not snag lines.

[John Gearing]

When contemplating questions like these I often find it useful to turn to John Gardner's "Building Classic Small Craft". In that book's chapter on the Beachcomber dory, Gardner has both jib and main sheets coming to blocks located on different parts of the centerboard box. The cleat for the main sheet is a jam cleat, made of oak or ash, and mounted on the after end of the box. The jibsheet cleat is a four-incher mounted on top of the box. Get ahold of the book and flip through this and the other chapters on sailing dories. Good stuff there.

[Thorne]

John -

Thanks, I have the book but somehow missed the wood jam cleat. Here's a shot of the cleat in question -- very interesting! Looks like he's got three cleats laid out -- the oak jamcleat on the aft end, a horn cleat on the top, and a half-horn or thumbcleat on the fore end.

http://www.luckhardt.com/oakjamcleat1.jpg

http://www.luckhardt.com/oakjamcleat2.jpg