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Jay Greer
08-02-2006, 01:24 AM
Since there seems to be a bit of confusion regarding laid decks, I offer these humble notes.
How a deck will best be laid dependends on the structure beneith it.
The traditional deck for a boat some thirty feet on deck or more, often, consisted of bronze X strapping in way of the mast partners and a cedar or eastern white pine underlayment of bead edged T&G.
This was most often overlaid with canvas set in shellack. Covering boards were, on best built boats, connected by hook scarfs. The reason for this was that, a boat deck was built to work in harmony with the hull beneith it. The strong sorrounding ring of the covering boards, in conjunction with the other strengthening components of the deck structure, acted like the rings around the domes of classic Roman and Italian domes. The ring is a strength component in resisting the deflection of the arched deck beams in conjunction with the forces created by the driven cotten caulking in the deck seams.
These structural forces resist both wracking and hogging of the hull structure and materialy add to the stiffness of the boat while adding the least amount of weight per square foot of deck area.

Modern hulls do not necessarily need this form of construction if they are either built of strip planking or of epoxy saturation methods of construction. However, the elimination of traditional deck caulking can lead to moisture invasion if meticulous sealing of edge grain and plank under layment bedding are not adhered to. More often than not, the modern teak deck will last only a fourth to a third of the time that a traditional deck will. The cost of rebuilding of such decks can be nearly twice to three times the cost of a traditional laid deck. This is due to the extensive labor involved with the removal of the decking which, most often, requires the removal of the sub deck as well. Often, there is also rot involvment in beams or sheer clamp components as well.

The traditional laid deck is best laid of strakes that are nearly square in cross section and stand a quarter of an inch or so obove the covering boards. This will insure that there is plenty of material for resurfacing over the years to come and channels water more efficinently to the lee scuppers. Decks of this type are laid with V shaped caulking seams in order to easily accept the driven caulking cotton. It is the cotton caulking and not the seam compound that insures a tight deck. If one is planning to use traditional oil based seam compound. There are still a few on the market. "Jeffreys Marine Glue" is one and Pettit also makes appropriate oil based seam coumpounds. Heating the material in a double boiler will allow it to be poured into the caulking gun more easily. Seams should be taped off primed with a mixture of bee's wax and turpentine prior to driving the cotton caulking. On light decks caulking cotton can be forced in with a seam wheel followed by driving with a light iron and mallet. The cotton should then be primed again with the bees wax and turpentine mixture. Once it has set up, the seams can be payed with oil based compound. Often a run over with a stiff putty knife will assist in setting the paying. Once the seams have set up sufficiently, the tape can be removed. Oil based seam compound applied in this manner will last for many years. Should a crack open up, it is a simple matter to run a hot iron down it which, will melt the compound back in place.

If one chooses to use one of the modern polysulfied compounds that are currently on the market, the seams should be prepared with a square fillister rabet and not caulked with cotton. However, one should then be willing to accept the fact that the deck will not be as rigid as a caulked one would be. And, once a seam separates, it is not so easily repaired.
JG

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-02-2006, 05:52 AM
Thank you, Jay.

Much sound advice there. I particularly liked your points about the hook scarphs in the covering boards, and the desirability of the deck strakes being 1/4" thicker than the covering boards.

However, did you inadvertently omit a paragraph? You seem to jump suddenly from tongue and groove softwood with canvas covering (and, by definition, uncaulked seams) to laid, caulked and payed decks.

Two little notes of my own:

1. In laid and payed decks, it is usual to fit bronze rods between the shelf and the carlines in way of side decks alongside deck openings, to take the strain of the caulking, which would otherwise tend to force the carlines off their half dovetails in the half beams. These rods need to lie right under the deck if they are to do any good, and to be quite numerous - at least every couple of feet.

2. In arranging the covering boards, it is desirable to arrange them so that a section of covering board can be removed without disturbing the rest of the deck. This allows repairs to framing to be undertaken with much less trouble.

It follows from this that halving the nibbed ends of deck strakes that terminate on the covering board, if any (none in a "fully swept" deck, but some with other arrangements) onto the covering board is a bad plan; it is better to fit blocking in way. Certainly the nibbed ends should not be left hanging in mid-air, although they are that way on my boat.

PeterSibley
08-02-2006, 07:13 AM
Andrew , that would mean the covering board fasteners, those through the hooked scarfs (bolts ?),would have to be accessible from the outer side ? How is this done on Mirelle ? Are they removable without tearing the whole box and dice apart ?

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-02-2006, 07:29 AM
Peter,

I have forgotten, although I've had one covering board off!

Compared to hoicking all the bulwark stanchions out, and backing out a multitude of screws, it obviously was not enough to register!

I'll have to have a look, and get back to you!

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-02-2006, 11:36 AM
Oh, yes, based on my own experience and conversations with others, I would suggest that a teak laid deck cannot be reliably watertight if less than one and a half inches thick, and that is assuming the use of wood with the growth rings running more or less vertically through it, and strakes which are roughly square in section, as Jay says.

Teak is dimensionally very stable. For an unpainted pine deck, I personally would add a quarter of an inch more, but I have two friends with such a deck which is an inch and a quarter thick, laid three years ago, and so far, so good. (or so they tell me - but many wooden boat owners lie about the watertightness of their decks!)

PeterSibley
08-02-2006, 05:11 PM
Peter,

I have forgotten, although I've had one covering board off!

Compared to hoicking all the bulwark stanchions out, and backing out a multitude of screws, it obviously was not enough to register!

I'll have to have a look, and get back to you!

Yes ,I think I remember you discussing it .You weren't impressed .:)

PeterSibley
08-02-2006, 05:16 PM
Thank everyone...some very good suggestions .Much appreciated .

Jay Greer
08-02-2006, 06:54 PM
All good points. In refrence to the t&g covered with canvas or resin set Dynel, that is for a sub deck and not for a finished deck. The planked decking is laid over it. Bronze truss rods are often used for strengthening the deck panel. This work is usually chosen by the designer rather than being an after thought. On boats less than thirty feet in length truss rods are often omited.
JG

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-03-2006, 06:13 AM
Jay - you are recommending a laid swept deck laid over a t&g pine deck, canvassed?

I've only once seen this construction, aboard an 87ft Alden schooner. Both decks were Douglas Fir.

She was built in Canada, IIRC.

British practice seems to differ from American; we have very few boats that have double planked hulls, for example (off the top of my head, I can only think of a couple of C&N offshore racers from the 50's that are built this way).

Certainly over here it would be more normal to use a single deck. Claud Worth discusses complex multi-layer decks, and used one on "Tern III", but he concludes that a single thickness teak deck is better.

I strongly suspect that teak decks were unusual if not almost unknown here before WW1 used up the supplies of clear white and yellow pine that were formerly used. It was not unusual for a yacht to be redecked every ten years, back then.

Peter - my mind has cleared. "Mirelle"'s covering boards do not have hook scarphs in the moulding dimension, as (correctly, in my view) advocated by Jay; she has lipped scarphs in the siding dimension, screwed onto deck beams. The scarphs trail, viewed from above, and by easing the fastenings you can wiggle a section out once you have got the fastenings and bulwark stanchions out.

This is clearly an inferior method, but uses much less timber.

I think that if you secured the hook scarph in the moulding dimension by using, say, a pair of bronze rods, threaded into nuts recessed into the covering board on the inboard side, and with some suitably ingenious shape of head, dowelled over, on the outboard side, you might have a sporting chance. They would be almost like drifts.

PeterSibley
08-03-2006, 06:59 AM
J

This is clearly an inferior method, but uses much less timber.

I think that if you secured the hook scarph in the moulding dimension by using, say, a pair of bronze rods, threaded into nuts recessed into the covering board on the inboard side, and with some suitably ingenious shape of head, dowelled over, on the outboard side, you might have a sporting chance. They would be almost like drifts.

Perhaps an inferior method ...but it looks as though it is clearly simpler to repair .

Perhaps if those nuts were very closely fitted into the countersink on the inside ...it would be possible to back the bolts out as needed in the years to come .Possible but not guaranteed !:)
I'd probably thread a section of 1"x 1/2" hard copper as a nut ,a rectangle ,it would find it hard to turn in the countersink ,even when things got soft.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-03-2006, 08:23 AM
The brutally simple method must be to use a couple of drifts, and get a hacksaw blade into the scarph when you need to get it apart!

It's fair to add that "Mirelle"s method is a good deal easier to keep watertight.

Lew Barrett
08-03-2006, 11:56 AM
Terrific and eye opening thread. Jay Greer, please check your PMs.

Jay Greer
08-03-2006, 02:57 PM
On our own Common Sense Sloops, in the past, we have used 1/4" Port Ordford Cedar sub decking t&g laid straight. This was then covered a layer by Dynal Cloth & Epoxy. The boats are 28'LOA and the cloth in resin over lay obviates the need for truss rods. A sprung 1 1/8" thick x 1 3/8" teak deck is overlaid.
JG