How long to cut the tree?

[Rob Stokes, N. Vancouver]

Newbie here, and planning on building my first boat (I've done a lot of woodworking, but have never built a boat).

I'll be pulling a nice 20" cedar down from the bush and into the inlet where I'm going to tow it to a waiting boat trailer and take it to the mill. The hope is to pull enough wood out of this for a small (8') lapstrake pram (learning project) and perhaps also enough for a larger (14') vessel later on.

I'm curious if there's a rule of thumb for how long to rough-cut planks to meet the finished length criteria for boats of this size? I simply need to know where to put the chainsaw.

any help appreciated!

Rob

[pcford]

Newbie here, and planning on building my first boat (I've done a lot of woodworking, but have never built a boat).

I'll be pulling a nice 20" cedar down from the bush and into the inlet where I'm going to tow it to a waiting boat trailer and take it to the mill. The hope is to pull enough wood out of this for a small (8') lapstrake pram (learning project) and perhaps also enough for a larger (14') vessel later on.

I'm curious if there's a rule of thumb for how long to rough-cut planks to meet the finished length criteria for boats of this size? I simply need to know where to put the chainsaw.

any help appreciated!

Rob


Boy, Smalser does this stuff so he's a better source than I am, but I would think that there would not be much, if any boat wood in a 20" pole. But I don't know.

[Thad]

For the 8' pram 8'4" will be plenty if you have no endgrane checks (so you might want 9'+ though that extra will be cut off). For the 14'er you will probably need another foot. For a 20' very full bodied transom boat I'm building the sheerstrakes are 22'. For the recent doubleender closer to 24'

[landlocked sailor]

Leave it as long as you can for as long as you can. Rick

[Bob Smalser]

The lengths you buck a small tree at are determined by the tree, as few are dead straight.

A 20" Western Red probably isn't much more than 60' tall, so measure to the first crook in the trunk, buck it there, then split the difference to take logs below and above the crook. If the bole is dead straight, where you buck is your option. I like 12-footers, with 3" of excess at each end for trim, for most boat wood. Planks much longer than that in a number of designs have too much grain runout at the ends and should be doglegged scrarfed.

That said, if your plans call for an 8' pram and a 14' skiff, then 10' and 16' make the most sense, as most skiffs don't have the amount of sheer to make grain runout at the ends much of a problem. The excess length provides purchase to pull the planks in at the ends using clamps, resulting in a fairer run. You cut to length in place after fastening. Buck a bit longer if there's a lot of curve in the design....measure it and allow at least 6 inches at each end.

Consider beginning with the pram, because you won't get more than a pram's work of heartwood planking stock from a tree that size.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3075040/40075413.jpg

Riftsawn wood is ideal for planking, but it takes more log than yours to provide wide boards when milling for it, and knots weaken it badly. If you keep the strakes small in your pram, say no wide than 6", then you can use flat (plain) sawn WRC without danger of it splitting, and small to middlin size knots won't weaken it.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3075040/40075424.jpg

[Rob Stokes, N. Vancouver]

Thanks Bob - hoping you'd pipe in.

The tree is dead nuts straight, not crooks at all, 20" (6' above the bell) at the butt and down to 16" at 25'. There's knots, but not many and most are small. My fingers are crossed with this one.

It was a windfall from last year at a friends cabin and I left it long hoping it would be donated. It's looking good for that to happen. Problem is, It's in the bush a ways and the only way out is to the water and the only way to do that is by hand. Once I get it to the waters edge I can make friends with the tide

I think there's enough wood there to do the 8' pram riftsawn so I'll think a while with that in mind. Perhaps another tree has the 14' in it.

Thanks all for your input. If this comes to pass I'll update.

Rob

[Bob Smalser]

Problem is, It's in the bush a ways and the only way out is to the water and the only way to do that is by hand.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3223936/39615107.jpg

Either a power winch like the blue Homelite in the background, or a couple large come-alongs, a large single block, a peavy, and a couple nylon cargo straps ....one afixed high in a neighboring tree to raise the butt end of the log as you pull, the other once used as a choker.

After limbing, try to winch out the entire tree if you can, and buck later. No sense in rigging twice unless you have to.

[Three Cedars]

... and some people would call that free wood !

I wonder if you'd be farther ahead cutting it into shake blocks , selling them and then go buy your lumber.

[Rob Stokes, N. Vancouver]

Thx Bob. No (power) winch unfortunately but I do have a good hand winch and a few blocks. I've already limbed it and may indeed try to bring it out long. One of the problmes is that I have to nose it down a cliff that's about 25' tall to hit the beach and the top of the cliff is forested. If the log endo's the beach and isn't short enough to tumble, I could end up in a mess with the log stuck in the vertical position - something I'd rather avoid! Also unfortunately, I don't think a controlled crash is an option either - this sucker's gonna go in one big woosh!

Rob

[Bob Smalser]

... One of the problmes is that I have to nose it down a cliff that's about 25' tall to hit the beach and the top of the cliff is forested.

If the log endo's the beach and isn't short enough to tumble, I could end up in a mess with the log stuck in the vertical position - something I'd rather avoid!...

An every-day task in the woods...not a problem.

Winch the butt to the edge of the cliff, then reset the choker to the center of the log and winch it to the balance point just before it tips. Keeping tension on the winch cable, tip the butt over the edge and lower the log down with the winch rather than let it fall. Once it's upright and the butt resting on the beach, you can loosen the winch and pole the treetop out from your position at the top of the cliff and let it fall top-first into the water. (or lower the top with the winch of you have enough cable/rope) Pad any areas on the beach that might break the log using slash.

If the lay of the ground is such that it is impossible to let the tree fall without breaking, then plan where the log breaks by placing a short log as a bearer on the beach for it to hit. Plan it like you intend to buck the tree, only allow 24" trim on either side of the break point.

Here is a similar bearer on the beach, only this time used to prevent a break rather than cause one, as the Doug Fir bearer is considerably softer than this madrone wood, which turned that DF log into crushed firewood:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/4110272/50978326.jpg

[Rob Stokes, N. Vancouver]

Good minfo, thanks Bob. And I may actually have a purchase point near the edge of the cliff, I'll have to double check. Hoping to find out next week if I can actually get my hands on this tree or not. I'll let you know.

Rob (formerly of Sumner WA)

[Charles Burgess]

You can count on some checking in the ends of the boards, thus you will lose about 18 inches from the length. Or, in terms of your original question: cut the log 18 to 24 inches longer than the length of your longest board you will be cutting from it.

[Bob Smalser]

You can count on some checking in the ends of the boards, thus you will lose about 18 inches from the length.


Nope. While true for some hardwood species where the log ends aren't painted promptly, in Western Red Cedar, you will get zero end checking without any treatment of the log or board ends. Even in 2X and 3X stock. Doug Fir is almost as stable, too, and painting the ends is generally a waste of resources in any stock smaller than a 6X12 beam.

Allowing enuf trim for the crude square the chainsaw is prone to cut (especially bucking on difficult ground) is plenty sufficient. You are at the margins trying to get an 8' pram's worth of planking from a 20" tree, Rob....don't waste any more than you have to on trim.

[Rob Stokes, N. Vancouver]

I spoke to the local mill today and it looks like I can book time in September. Spoke to the guy that owns the boat trailer I'm going to use to pull the log out of the water with and transprt it to the mill and I'm one more step towards actually getting the log.

Bob - I'm planning on a 22' section to make for an easy tow (up the arm) and I'll cut it into two 11' pieces at the mill site. I'll mill those and sticker it at home until I'm ready to go.

Rob

[Charles Burgess]

Nope. While true for some hardwood species where the log ends aren't painted promptly, in Western Red Cedar, you will get zero end checking without any treatment of the log or board ends. Even in 2X and 3X stock. Doug Fir is almost as stable, too, and painting the ends is generally a waste of resources in any stock smaller than a 6X12 beam.

Allowing enuf trim for the crude square the chainsaw is prone to cut (especially bucking on difficult ground) is plenty sufficient. You are at the margins trying to get an 8' pram's worth of planking from a 20" tree, Rob....don't waste any more than you have to on trim.

Must be a difference in climate.

Down here in the SE it is nice and humid, but normally warm to hot (cools off at night only in the winter). The western cedar I've cut have had 6 inch checking. Up in the midwest it was slightly worse.

Maybe the next time I need to custom order some western cedar I should check it out in your locale? (Shipping costs isn't usually an issue with my clients.)

[Bob Smalser]

Must be a difference in climate.

Maybe the next time I need to custom order some western cedar I should check it out in your locale? (Shipping costs isn't usually an issue with my clients.)

I doubt it's weather. Our reported weather here is very misleading. It's so dry here in the summer that my remaining 60k BF of stacked DF and WRC is already down to 6% EMC, well on it's way to 4% by late September.

One problem Easterners have with WRC is that almost all the export stock is kilned to 19% EMC or less. This species is unusual in that the MC in individual logs varies greatly, depending on how close they grew to water. Mix boards from 30% MC logs with boards from 66% and 100% MC logs in a kiln the size of a railroad car, and you can see why so many boards arrive at your location overcooked....brittle, casehardened or cracked.

The KD19 schedule is for "outdoor wood" because that's the only market....fences, trim, shingles and siding. And that's all most professionals these days understand - nobody builds boats outta wood anymore, do they? So your lumber dealers and even the large cedar mills and forestry professors don't believe in air drying anymore and are sincere when they occasionally put out bad information about their "outdoor wood" being suitable for boats.

Here's folks I know in my neck of the woods that have the best air-dried, old-growth stock right now, and who understand boat wood and are willing to arrange shipment:

Larry McClananhan
McClananhan Lumber, Inc.
P.O. Box 1483, Forks, WA 98331
Phone: (360) 374-5887 Fax: (360) 374-5800

Pete Wagner
Pacific Western Timbers Incorporated
(360) 674-2700
8800 Imperial Way Sw
Port Orchard, WA 98367

Queen Charlotte Island Boat Lumber
PO Box 293
Port Clements BC V0T 1R0
250-557-4282
obrien@qcislands.net


Here's also a good source of old-growth, upland Doug Fir if you can talk them out of it before they kiln it:

Bear Creek Timberwrights, Inc.
1934 Middle Bear Creek Rd.
P.O. Box 335
Victor, MT 59875
(406) 642-6003 ..... (406) 642-6005 (fax)
Send E-Mail to : info@bearcreektimber.com

[Charles Burgess]

Bob,

Thanks for the info.

I prefer to get green wood and season it myself. Some mills are willing to ship green and some insist on seasoning it themselves to gain the value added benefit for themselves (good for them and helps keep them in business).

[Three Cedars]

Rob - How goes the cedar log retrieval ?

[donald branscom]

Newbie here, and planning on building my first boat (I've done a lot of woodworking, but have never built a boat).

I'll be pulling a nice 20" cedar down from the bush and into the inlet where I'm going to tow it to a waiting boat trailer and take it to the mill. The hope is to pull enough wood out of this for a small (8') lapstrake pram (learning project) and perhaps also enough for a larger (14') vessel later on.

I'm curious if there's a rule of thumb for how long to rough-cut planks to meet the finished length criteria for boats of this size? I simply need to know where to put the chainsaw.

any help appreciated!

Rob

That is called the bucking length. Different mills have different requirements.
Some want 20 ft. some want 22 ft for the equipment to grab the log.
You need to check with the mill you are working with.

[Rob Stokes, N. Vancouver]

It's not looking good for me getting the tree. I thought it was mine - in fact I put many days labour into the propety where the log is in order to "earn" the log - but I still don't have it nor am I any closer to getting it. Not the outcome I wanted, but it's the one I knew could happen.

Oh well, live and learn, and learn, and learn

Rob