ATTN: New Members Please Read!

[Dave Fleming]

WB FAQ for Building&Repair (http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=008298&p=)

[ 08-24-2004, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[DavidF]

I'm not a new member but infrequent poster. And I am an avid member of my local library (so I know how to look stuff up). And I am computer savy (somewhat). But I like to ask questions in my own tongue and hear the answers (for information as much as ego).

And, I recognize that Dave is one of the truly devoted educators on this forum. So, please believe me when I say I am not ranting against an individual. It is just that I have seen this post/reply too many times: "We talked about it two years ago, why don't you go look it up." If you ask me to see a picture of my kid, I will show it to you even if you have seen it a hundred times. I want to ask a stupid question about boats and not be told to go look up the answer.

I apologize if I have offended anyone. It's just that I really like the dialogue. And speaking of dialogue, the first guy to say it has all been said before was Plato.

I don't have much wisdom to offer in the world of boats. But I do know Whitman: "The untold want of life but ne'er granted. Now voyager, sail thou forth to seek and find."

[Bob Cleek]

I hear you David, but here's the problem... Lessay somebody asks a basic question and one of us takes the time to write a page or two really explaining something useful to everybody. Good so far. But then... maybe a few months later, another guy asks the same question.

Now, the guy who typed the several page detailed response isn't going to be bothered typing it again. Neither is anybody else. (Maybe if he's really lucky, somebody will take pity on him, look it up and repost it!) Nobody answers the question... 'cept maybe another newbie who gives him bad advice.

Once the posts in a forum start going this way, nobody's going to participate much and it will likely die or deterioriate beyond redemption. (E.g. "the bilge"... save for "humor me...")

On the other hand, if somebody does run the magic search engine, they may find the long version of the answer and come up with an even better, more refined and more interesting question. THAT will keep a forum lively and interesting.

The only stupid question is one that's asked twice.

[ 08-24-2004, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Bob Cleek ]

[NormMessinger]

I don't disagree with you Bob, totally (lol) but what you describe is the extreme senario. (In the bilge someone would correct the spelling.) I'll bet someone has asked how to post pictures a thousand times. It is probably easier for me to repost from a text file on my hard drive than it would be for someone to figure out what search terms to use and determine which section to search.

There is very little asked here than could not be answered from some other source. However, as my wife says, it isn't so important what we talk about as long as we talk. Some pretty good cyber friendships have developed here. We don't want to discourage that.

Bad advise has always been a problem. It takes a while to know who one can trust. Let the buyer beware.

And we certainly don't want to get so curmudgenly that we discourage questions.

[alteran]

"However, as my wife says, it isn't so important what we talk about as long as we talk."

Oh my god Norm. I had a girl friend once that would NOT QUIT TALKING! Drove her family nuts and drove me away.

She needed an audio mirror so whenever she talked she received feedback. Maybe Richard Simmons would be the right man for her......

I wasn't, Al.

[Phil Young]

I think Dave is not saying don't ask-but is saying have a look at FAQ, you are likely to find lots of good stuff there. if you don't find what you want, if you need more, if you want to have a conversation that others have already had, for sure, go ahead and ask.

My .02

[S/V Laura Ellen]

Dave hit the nail on the haed with the advise to look at the FAQ first. In many cases the FAQ will contain more than one way to skin the cat and is a wealth of information. Reading the FAQ will help you ask the right questions and get the answers to the specific details you need.

Allan

[Popeye]

ahhh.. nope.

Instead of reading FAQ lists, simply go get another, better, reference. A dynamic forum is a ring of questions and answers , and each question is unique, thus creating interesting threads. Opinions vary and contributors change. It would be arrogant for one person to grant their assumptions on us all.

Unless there is some dual particle quantum effect at work that dictates all effects are universal, and every wooden boat is always uniform and in order ..

[NormMessinger]

This may be the first thread in memory in which all of the contributers are mostly correct.

[mmd]

Sorry, Popeye, but I disagree. The sequence of events, for both newbies and shellbacks, should be:

1.) Formulate question, paying attention to clarity.
2.) Check FAQ to see if the answer is there.
3.) If not found in FAQ, carefully review question to ensure all available required info is present.
4.) Post question.

Personally, I think that the answer to questions such as, "Why can't I extend the station moulds for the Haven 12-1/2 by 25% and get a Haven 15-5/8?" have been done with enough clarity (and discussion) that there is nothing new left to be said.

Grizzled old hands answering questions from polliwogs is a wonderful feature of this forum, but personal initiative to make the effort to find the answer by yourself has its merits. Opening phrases such as, "I've read through the threads about gillhickies in the FAQ, but didn't find anything about hermaphrodite gillhickies ..." makes me want to help; questions on relatively common subjects that have been discussed to death here or are explained in even the most rudimentary how-to books leave me a bit cold, as do questions that do not provide sufficient information to formulate an answer.

There are quite a few knowlegeable people here at WoodenBoat CyberCollege (alas, fewer than there was in the recent past) to answer your questions, sometimes questions that you really should pay for the answer; but please don't waste their time and patience by not doing your homework. Come to class prepared, please. ;)

[Popeye]

thanks emdee, with that, i have gathered a little more sense of your's and others perspectives. The 'classroom' model of the WBF is a good one. Save one problem, that a teaching style discussion group implies some always know more than others and some are willing to bottle the discussion.

I don't think so.

We have all attended a conference-workshop-forum-seminar of one sort or another and is basically a collection of interested and interesting people from all over who exchange ideas, there is not much more to it than that on this forum. Imagine calling into a radio talk show and the host abruptly cuts off debate on 'capial punishment' since it's already been discussed. Once regurgetated, the point may evolve into a tangential topic and weird influences take effect, a gestation period of overnight thought and BOOM , new ideas come out.

If that is the case.

[ 08-25-2004, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: popeye ]

[TimothyB]

I'm a glutton for information. smile.gif

I spent a year reading about boats, wood and otherwise, before I even uttered a word on the forum, and Im ex-navy. I knew that my knowledge base was experiential, but related to being a crewman, not being a boatman or a boatbuilder.

And although there are an awful lot of old salts here, a body gets real tired answering the same question over and over again.

I must have typed my pat response to 'Will white oak take glue?' at least 10 times (referring to the US Navy's evaluation of the material vs resorcinol and etc) until I finally decided to refer to the FAQ if I saw the question again. I can only imagine how much patience Dave and Bob have. :D

The FAQ is a valuable tool, and a starting point for anyone who has a question about something who has not been here for very long. I would bet that fully half of all first questions get answered, or at least treated to a good response, in the FAQ and Jim has done a fine job of maintaining it.

Also, like television, you always have the option of NOT reading the FAQ and asking your question anyway. This is a free forum you know ;)

Whatever your choice, I think you'll find that the folks here are generally patient, knowledgable and experienced, and that if you hang around long enough you'll have the confidence to tackle that 60 year old sloop sitting by the barn that you saw when you were driving home.

[LandLubber No More]

I agree with Popeye. Sure, the search tool is something we all should learn to use, but if I have a quick question and decide to blast it out without going to the archives, I would hope to get a response. I am by no means a master carpenter nor am I a boat builder, I do have a wooden boat which is my hobby and a "renovation" in progress. I salute some of the members here, whose first love is in the building and the crafting, I am not one of those. I grew up on an Ocean, around working boats and crave the time spent on the water not the building of the craft that takes me there. I am over simplefying I know, I appreciate a job well done and a fine wooden boat too. I guess my point is that some times it is the discussion about a query that I crave more than the precise answer. If it is one thing I have learned from this forum it is that there are many experts with many differing opinions, there is oftens times more than one way to skin a cat.

[Mike B]

After spending a number of years (since 1997) on various boards for a broad assortment of skills, trades, hobbies, etc. I can understand the frustration that sets in when you've heard (been asked) the same question for the umpteenth time over the years....and that is the reason for the FAQ section.

Suggestion...an option to just saying..."See the FAQ!"...you could (since you "old-timers" here KNOW what is in the FAQ)..respond with something more helpful, and probably only type just a few more letters in doing so.

In example:

Q: Can anyone help me with a question about fixing up this old plane I just bought???

A: Sure! We talked about that some time back...here's a link to that thread. Hope it helps ya.

Rehabilitating Old Planes (Revised) (Bigger) (http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008638)


Now, for questions like:

Newbie Q: Do you guys talk about Boat Building here???

Ans: "Nope...this board is for discussing the latest in fall fashions for us boys..."

Continued answer: "Here's your sign."

Mike

[Jim H]

One of the reasons I created the FAQ, with much help and input from many other members, had to do with how the search engine works (or doesn't work). I just did a search in B&R for "white oak epoxy" by subject, it returned 4 threads. Doing the same search using the entire text of the message returned 78 threads. My hope is that some will find it useful in shortening their search for information. How many threads have there been on "how many coats of varnish?" returned 5 threads "varnish" returned 200. I'm not trying to end discussion jst trying to help those who may be pressed for time

[ 08-25-2004, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Jim H ]

[Popeye]

Agreed Jim, I have used your FAQ lists, they are actually very helpful.

But once in awhile ya might just feel like moseying on down to the hardware store looking for a screw ... er wait, let me start over. Ya might wander into the hardware store looking for some lubricant .. ok. ..and then, by the time ya get to jaw'n with your buds, end up at the pub talking about .. em , i dunno .. spoons.

My point is, it's great to keep the discussion live and animated and all types ( yes, even Canadians) need that warm and fuzzy feeling when they come here.

cheers.

Suggestion ,, for the experts among us ,,

If a trivial question pops up, like say glue joints in oak, rather than say .. no that can or can't be done .. splain why the joint will behave as it does. A good theoretical discussion that does not address the problem directly, but instead is more genral in nature will be worthwhile.

[ 08-25-2004, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: popeye ]

[Wensum]

There seems to be a certain amount of navel watching here and it won't do. Posters rant and argue, much like preachers in the thousand sects of religion proclaiming theirs is the only true faith, and it's all GOOD FUN!
I'm not much of a poster (I've written three books but read more) but I read the Woodenboat Forum avidly, scouring it for useful ideas. And I love the evangelical zeal shown by posters advocating, for example, traditional putties versus modern fillers in seams.
WF is the best sailing forum on the internet and full both of knowledge and passion, so I appeal to all to let your sheets fly and get ranting.

[dmede]

"WF is the best sailing forum on the internet ..."

Hey there, as a wooden canoe builder (those have paddles mostly) I like to think of it as a Wooden Boat forum and not just a sailing forum. ;) Sheesh, you sailing types thinks you got the only stuff on the water sometimes!

[Jim H]

Originally posted by popeye:
But once in awhile ya might just feel like moseying on down to the hardware store looking for a screw ... er wait, let me start over. Ya might wander into the hardware store looking for some lubricant .. ok. ..and then, by the time ya get to jaw'n with your buds, end up at the pub talking about .. em , i dunno .. spoons.

cheers.

Suggestion ,, for the experts among us ,,

If a trivial question pops up, like say glue joints in oak, rather than say .. no that can or can't be done .. splain why the joint will behave as it does. A good theoretical discussion that does not address the problem directly, but instead is more genral in nature will be worthwhile.Some of the more interesting threads on epoxy & paint started just that way.

My point is, it's great to keep the discussion live and animated and all types ( yes, even Canadians) need that warm and fuzzy feeling when they come here I wouldn't have it any other way.