Considering an electric rudder, opinions seeked

[Dan Nielsen]

I have a Haven 12-1/2 Footer and use a transom mounted trolling motor to get in and out of a lakeshore marina. It is a bit of a nuisance taking the thing on and off for each trip out of and into the marina. So, I am considering a more permanent mount.

I have come up with two options, build a rudder with the motor imbedded in its bottom and run the wires into a water proof receptacle in the transom. This approach has the advantage of being able to swap an electric rudder for a conventional one and could be constructed to minimize drag. I have concerns about getting a real water tight receptacle (it will get submerged) and having a heavy rudder. The motor should weigh about 25 lbs. Do you think this would be an issue?

The other option is to mount it to the side of the deadwood. In the deadwood will not work. Drag would be greater since the entire motor and bracket would be in the flow. The motor is about 12 inches long and 4 in diameter with a conical end. I would pass the wires through the hull below the waterline with this approach. It would be more discrete, but not easily removed.

The motor I have in mind is the Navigator from Marinetech. I have spoken to them and they say either application should work. The motor (52 lbs thrust, 12 volt) is suitable for permanent submersion. Anybody have experience with this product?

I guess it all really boils down to drag. I do not race, but there is another Haven at the lake that I like to keep up with on occasion. At Haven speeds, would drag be a significant issue? By the way, the entire set up, with batteries and all will weigh around 150 lbs .... adding to the drag a bit more I suppose.

The beauty of either set up is convenience and quite. It is such a pleasure to come back to the slip in smooth, odor-free silence.

I appreciate your thoughts.

[phiil]

Dan:
Marine Concepts, builder of the Sea Pearl, also builds an electric whitehall with a trolling motor mounted at the bottom of the rudder. I like this arrangement, have always wanted to do something similar. http://www.marine-concepts.com/elecwh.htm

[Buddy]

I have a somewhat similar configuration on my Marsh Cat 15 I have been pleased with, using a 47 pound thrust "transom mount" type motor and two Group 27 batteries, on on either side of the centerboard case up forward, mostly beneath the floorboards. with fitted mahogany covers.
You mention not wanting to be in the flow of the deadwood, but isn't the motor built into the rudder a la Devlin's 17 ft Nancy's China fully in the flow as well? I believe if you go the electric rudder route, you would be better off keeping a long watertight power lead, passing it thru your tiller hole in the transom and then to your power plug.

The skeg and barn door rudder ( not a kickup per plans) on my Marsh Cat draw 9 1/2". I cut a close fitting hole in the skeg,built in a "rudder tube" thru the keelson and transom knee, shortened the motor tube and remounted the contol head just below my tiller. The prop spins in a narrow, 1 3/4" gap aft of the skeg and ahead of the clipped- to- vertical leading edge of rudder. I haven't observed objectionable drag or turbulence spoiling the feel of the rudder. I later added a "clutch" of sorts which lets reach over the transom, wrist deep, and remove a spacer which allows the prop to be pushed aft by the water flow far enough to clear the now "caulked" in shear pin and free wheel for really reduced drag. Without the spacer removed, the three prop doesn't get enough water pressure to turn the motor armature until the boat reaches 3 tor 3 1/2 mph. You can hear a gentle cyclic chuckle which is an audio speedometer of sorts which also alerts me to this noticeable drag which is hard for the racer in me to ignore, hence the additional development of the clutch.
It is very handy to be able to swivel the motor for tighter radius turns betwwen docks or jockeying onto the trailer bunks. No way would I settle now for a motor fixed parallel to the center line.
My wife loves the quiet of the electric drive. I do too, but also the beauty of not spoiling of looks of a traditional gaff rigger's by an outboard perched on the transom, and the fingertio convenience of electric inboard power.
I keep a special made wooden transom bracket and a 2 horse 4 stroke long shaft Honda stored in the enclosed cuddy for long distance powering.

I can get about 3 1/2 mph for a tad over 2 hours on each battery for my electric power. The Honda will do this same speed on the same 40% partial throttle setting indicated for starting. On full throttle it will drive the Marsh Cat at 4 1/2 to 4 3/4 mph. Best compromise for speed and engine noise is 2/3 to 3/4 throttle. Big surprise. I believe the four to five horsepower recommended by Joel White would go about a 1/2 mph faster, but then it couldn't be both four stroke and weigh only 29 pounds.
In actuality, I use the electric power on every trip, but maybe only once every 3 or 4 months do I break out the Honda to keep it in recent,running order so I can depend on it if I do need it for a long ride back home with no wind, bucking the current up a tidal creek.

[Dan Nielsen]

Yeah Phiil, that is the idea for the rudder mounted set up. Although those motors and rudders shown seem large compared to the Minkota I am currently hanging off the transom. On those Whitehalls the batteries and electrical cords seem pretty intrusive. With the Haven hopefully the batteries and the wiring can be hidden in the bilge and aft compartment.

Buddy, the idea of retaining the traditional look is paramount. I looked at embedding the motor into the deadwood on the centerline and running the rod up into the aft compartment. If I had considered this when building the boat it would have been much more feasible. As it is, there are one or two structural bolts in the way so I have ruled that out. I was thinking that putting it in the centerline of the rudder would cause less drag because the rudder is already pushing some of the water out of the way (1-1/4 inches worth) compared to the side of the deadwood where it would all be 'new' water displaced.

What do you think about the idea of a 'rudder tube' (as Buddy put it) as the electrical conduit from the outside of the hull to the inside of the aft compartment. Run the electric leads from the motor to rudder tube acting as an eletrical conduit into the aft compartment to the control box. This would eliminate the the water proof plug problem or running a lead though the rudder hole. But it would mean making a through hull hole below the water. Little scary.

Any thoughts on the rudder being 'heavy'? The motor in the rudder should provide the manuverability Buddy praised with his skeg arrangement. The clutch idea sounds neat, but on the Haven, I do not think I could reach down far enough to remove the pin and still stay in the boat.

By the way Buddy, how is the Honda on vibration?

[htom]

This is a MinnKota designed to mount on an outboard or IO drive; I would think that it could be mounted on or in a rudder or deadwood with a lot less hassle (might be way more expensive, though, and doesn't come in a salt-water model.)

http://www.minnkotamotors.com/products/accessories/marine/engine_mount_motor.asp

[JimConlin]

I recollect seeing rowlock sockets on many H12's. Had you considered rowing?
It's a cheap, reliable, lightweight, exercise, traditional, low-maintenance solution.
Jim

[Dan Nielsen]

Thanks htom. That unit looks very much like the Navigator (www.panthermarineproducts.com) unit I found. Strikingly similar. The Navigator unit is in the $500 to $600 dollar range and is compatable with salt water. I don't use the boat in salt water now, but you never know about the future. I did look at taking apart a salt water MinnKota transom mount for this use. They were in the $450 to $500 dollar range. I took apart the fresh water Minn Kota I have now and it has never worked right since!?

Looking at the picture in your link you can probably better visualize how easily it could be mounted to the side of the deadwood and how it might drag a good bit. If mounted in the rudder, the 'legs' would probably be discarded.

[Dan Nielsen]

Yes Jim I have considered that. In fact, I have built a pair of oars and have rowed her a bit. Using both oars initialy, I can get up enough speed to make headway and get steerage (With one oar from a dead stop I just went in circles). Then I row with one oar in my right hand and the tiller in my left. It is pleasant and satisfiyng to move the boat this way and I have brought her back in from about a mile out before when the wind died completly. I was pooped, but pleased.

The problem I have is getting into my 'parking stall at the Walmart marina' when there is a breeze. I have tried rowing into a breeze (maybe 5 mph) and made no progress and she kept falling off. I guess I need to lift weights. A 5 mph breeze is plenty to sail in with this little boat, but in the marina the margin of error is too small for this saliors skill level. Wish I could tell you different Jim, but thems the facts.

[Jack Heinlen]

I've thought of doing this. I hope someone who has sailed their boat with and without a motor embedded in it will chime in here.

I'd be afraid that the motor and the prop would disrupt the action of the rudder and make the boat noticeably less pleasurable to sail -- especially on a boat that has such a lovely helm.

Someone did this on a dory or some such ten years ago, and wrote an article in WB. A search of the archive might yield the article.

All in all, I like the idea of becoming skilled enough that you have the confidence to dock under sail, and row when there is no wind. It can seem daunting in a close harbor. Is your insurance paid? smile.gif

Good luck.

[Ron Williamson]

Is there any chance of being able to mount some slides or something down either side of the rudder so that you could temporarily install a trolling motor on the back of it,just by dropping it onto the slides?
Or maybe, you could mount the motor like a kick-up rudder,but piggy-backed on the rudder itself.It wouldn't reverse unless locked down by a pin or some such,but at least it wouldn't drag(you could lock it up with the same pin).
R

[JimConlin]

150 lbs. for a couple of batteries and... seems excessive. A small gasoline outboard is a whole lot lighter. A 2HP Honda 4-stroke is 28 lbs. They're pretty quiet.
There's got to be someone who's engineered a removeable bracket for an outboard on a H12 or haven. When not needed, it could be stowed out of sight and not affect sailing performance, which is what it's all about, anyway. Right?

[whb]

Here's a link to Stevenson's projects take on it.

http://www.stevproj.com/EMotorIdeas.html

Howard

[Paul Scheuer]

Per Buddy's clutch comment. It seems counter intuitive, but I believe that a free wheeling prop actually creates more drag than the same prop locked in place. Have I been mislead ?

[SailBoatDude]

Some time ago I designed a trolling motor to mount on a kick up rudder. As designed it swings down and hangs just aft of the blade when in use and swings up out of the water when not or can be unshipped and stowed. It pivots with the turning rudder, being attached to the rudder head and is held in place by a quick release pin in a through a hole in the mounting plate. The raising and lowering operation is little more then lifting or lowering the motor and locking it in the desired position with the pin.

The control head (speed control handle and battery gage) are removed and hose clamped under the tiller, but could be anywhere if you like. I mounted the control head this way so I could steer and have the speed control within reach and out of the way. The two wires coming from the motor come through the tiller hole in the transom and plugs into a heavy duty two prong bulkhead connector mounted on the aft deck support, but could be mounted anywhere within a few feet of it's exit from the shaft, which was sealed with a grommet and some goo (5200) The bulkhead connector is wired to the control head, the rest is typical trolling motor hook up (find a place for the battery and clip on)

In practice, it works well, though I've made changes for this boat. The aft deck requires you to bend well over the transom to get enough leverage on the shaft to swing it up, so I put a solid lanyard on it of 1/8" aluminum bar stock with a "T" handle. This snaps into one of those clip in - clip out plastic holders. You push it in and in grabs or pull on it and it releases.

It takes a lot more time to describe then to do. Pull the pin and lift up or drop in the motor and replace the pin in the correct hole (there are two, one for up and . . .) then snap the lanyard back in place. If the transom is exposed then the lanyard isn't needed.

I've yet to stumble trough the hoops I need to post pictures here so if you'd like a picture, email me and I send one.

[htom]

How about making a tiny yawl boat, just enough to float the motor, cable, lines, and chocks? Lower it over the side, tie it up fore & aft, plug it in, turn it on. It could live on the foredeck with the anchor.

[Dan Nielsen]

Thanks guys for all the input. One thing is certain, I still don't know exactly what I will do. So I can get her back in the water sooner rather than latter, I might just stick with my current set up. Like I said it is a transom mount trolling motor that I can put on and pull off in relative ease. I have modified it so I can disassemble the 'head' to facilitate stuffing it in the forward compartment. Getting it on and off is about as easy as a friends with a side mounted 3.5 hp outboard. I would go with an outboard if I could fit it in my forward compartment out of the way. Then the there is the noise and the fuel .... or wondering if the batteries are charged enough and finding the time to charging batteries .... NO perfect solution.

You are right Jim, there are motor mounts available for both transom mounting and side mounting the gas powered motors.

If I manage to get other projects wrapped up (a pair of Fiddleheads and transport rack) this summer, I think I will make an experimental rudder out of cheap wood and an e-bay trolling motor. Wire it up with no perminent changes to the boat herself and she how it works. Like Jack said, don't want to loose that lovely helm.

[Buddy]

Back in town and responding to various questions.
I have not "immediately" sailed with and with out the electric motor in the skeg, but drag does not seem a significant loss, certainly no difference in feel of helm or loss of rudder effectiveness.
With the prop free wheeling it is less drag. I believe the comment of more drag from a free wheeling rudder comes from a boat like my old Morgan 30 with an inboard. Trying to turn the tranny gears was noisy and slow. We used a two blade prop and locked it vertical when racing. Otherwise did not bother. It wasn't enough difference to be sure in a "blind" test Too many other sail trim variables that did make a major difference.
When I was considering an electric rudder, I mocked it up with a trolling motor ( and also alternately the 2 horse outboard), but didn't like the extra inertia on the fell of the helm. I did think that if I built on, I would use each of the two rudder pintles/gudgeons as my invisible electrical connection. Still think its a great idea.
My 2 horse Honda has only a single cylinder and at idle, there is noticable, but not distracting vibration. At any practical speed, say 40% throttle and above, the revs are high enough to smooth it out. Less vibration than the one cylinder 4.5 two stroke Mercury that's been on my Dad's Morgan 22 for 33 years. I like the 2 horse Honda better than any of the 2 or 4 stroke 2 and 3 horse motors I have seen. The 4 horse four stroke Yamaha is a honey ( there's one pushing a friends 5000 pound Morgan 25 that's a race boat) but its more weight and power than I need for my main purpose of getting home some distance should the wind drop. I use the electric on and off the trailer, and in and out of the harbor out to the wind line.

[Buddy]

Oh yeah, the outboard motor bracket. I made a removable one out of varnished mahogany to match my transom. I use a oar lock socket embbeded into the top edge of the transom ( there is matching on on the other side for sculling with a single oar aft and steering with the other hand. I can "motorsail" on either tack that way) and a 5/16 hole thru the transom about ten inches ddown. An angle bracket and 1/2 pin holds the bracket in place a the top. Then I pass a toggle bolt thru the transom and bracket and snug it up with a wingnut on the inside of the transom to snug it up home. Really looks apropriately "old" in use, and no ugly permanent bracket or even a mounting plate to miss up the looks of the transom. No one has ever commented on noticing the one itty bitty hole.

[Buddy]

BY the way, I retro fiited my rig after construction, and the skeg had 1/4 bronze carriage bolts as well as epoxy fastening. Ditto the transom knee. There was only one place I could position this 1 1/4" hole thru the 1 3/4" transom knee (Cutting the lower arm of the knee damn near in half between its lower bolts ) and 1" skeg in half andhitting one bolt in the process. I epoxied in my tube and reinforced everywhere with biaxilial glass tape and heavy duty googe filler in between. Seems bulletproof to me, and as I fashioned a 4" wide mahogany control box and electric connection affair that straddles the knee, it all buttoned up to look original now. Only the control head is stock black plastic, but Im think of making a matching 'tiller" cover jacket to dress it up as well.