Design musings / Shoal Draft

[Benchdog]

At this year's Woodenboat show in Newport I got an opportunity to see Seraffyn of Victoria. I realized in many ways this is my ideal boat. I'm sure I'll never travel as much as the Pardeys but there are alot of things I like about this boat. Aesthetically, it's the right look. I like the large side decks, fore deck, flat areas around cockpit. I like being able to move around the deck. This necessitates a small (short ) cabin house and the mast stepped forward of the house. Of course this means that there is a lack of standing head room in much of the interior. I'm okay with that ( I currently sail a catboat). I didn't get to see the inside, but looking in my copy of (Cruising In Seraffyn), she seems to be set up well. I like the idea of having decent nav station where I can spread out a chart. Minimal galley. Berths for two. Good stowage.

Now, I'm not planning on building something like this anytime soon but it is healthy to dream about such things ( I think I'm going to build an Auk this winter). So I've been doing a bit of research on the whole BCC / Falmouth work boat styles. I've learned about Hess - Gartside - Atkin - etc.

Since I currently sail a Marshall 18 I really can appreciate shoal draft (and weather helm). She is a great little boat and has taken me over much of Buzzard's Bay last summer. Last weekend I sailed way up inside this little cove (watching for rocks - tossing my sounding lead) thinking, this is great fun. I'd reall miss doing this sort of thing if I was drawing 4'.

Then I started to think I'd like a seaworthy little cruiser - Channel Cutter style - but shoal draft / centerboard - 20' to 26'(ideal 24') - draft less than 3' - beam around 8'. I'm probably not going to be sailing to Europe but I might like to take a big trip up to Camden or Desert Island etc.

In my research I found Mark Smaalders site and I like his fine designs. Both the 23 and 26 are really cool. I wonder if he could shorten the cabinhouse on the 23?
http://smaalders.net/yacht_design/dpage1mod.html

Question 1 - Any suggestions for other designs that meet my criteria?

Part 2

I really like alot of William Atkin's designs. Eric Jr. and Little Dipper both come to mind though both have deep draft.

I usually am not a big fan of hard chine sailboats (I have a Bolger Nymph also - it rows great) but in looking through the Atkin site I ran into Heart's Desire II -
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/HeartsDesireII.html
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Photos/HeartsDesireII/HeartsDesireII-02.jpg

I think I really like this boat even though it is a hard chine design. It seems like it would translate well into glued lapstrake construction with ply sheets down under.

What I find odd is that this boat only draws 2'8" and doesn't seem to have a center board. He has a couple of other boats that are the same setup.

Question 2-
Would these boats got to weather well ? Tack well? Lots of leeway? Do they point higher due to the hard chine design? I find the lack of a CB weird.

Thanks for reading my ramblings. Any input is appreciated.
_Bench

[Ted Chism]

I am currently building the 25' Hampton Flattie out of the Smithsoniancollection that Chapelle initiated. 8' 6" beam, 1' 6" draw. Cool little cabin with enough sitting headroom, two bunks and head you can pull a curtin around for privicy. Cook on a Coleman, seven horse Vire engine to push you along when the wind dies. What more do you really need? I plan to sail a lot on Coos Bay, Oregon and take her out dancing over the bar when the weather is fair. I also would like to tralier op to Puget Sound or down to the Gulf of California. I really cant imagine why anyone would want to build anything else.

Sincerely,

Ted

[donald branscom]

I am currently building the 25' Hampton Flattie out of the Smithsoniancollection that Chapelle initiated. 8' 6" beam, 1' 6" draw. Cool little cabin with enough sitting headroom, two bunks and head you can pull a curtin around for privicy. Cook on a Coleman, seven horse Vire engine to push you along when the wind dies. What more do you really need? I plan to sail a lot on Coos Bay, Oregon and take her out dancing over the bar when the weather is fair. I also would like to tralier op to Puget Sound or down to the Gulf of California. I really cant imagine why anyone would want to build anything else.

Sincerely,

Ted

Could please post a photo? Thanks

[jp4sail]

Hi

John Hesp has a design that may fit your needs. Her name is Askival. Check this out:
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5508/askivalsailplan1bb6.th.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=askivalsailplan1bb6.jpg)

[jp4sail]

Oops, a better picture

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3341/askivalsailplan1ep5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Benchdog]

jp4-

I like Askival. Is there any more info on the web about her.

[sv Lorelei]

Selway Fishers Port Louis 20 footer is a good looking pocket cruiser that seems somewhat based on the lines of the Channel Cutters

http://www.selway-fisher.com/PLouisp4.jpg

[jp4sail]

Hi

You can contact the designer, John Hesp at:
john@hesp.co.uk or john@hespj.plus.com (These are the last e-mails I have). You can also check his old website (but still active) at:
http://members.aol.com/hespj/rosebud/

He is a nice guy and designs beautiful boats, I believe he also writes in this forum.
Good luck
JPaes

[JimD]

Concerning Hearts Desire you may wish to solicite Dave Fleming's opinion on her as he has the plans and is a retired shipwright.

Another chined Atkin design that has caught my eye in the past in terms of ease of construction is the somewhat smaller 21 foot double ender Economy Jane which seems to have a bit more keel for windward sailing:

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/images/EconomyJane-3.gif

[Bruce Hooke]

When comparing designs keep in mind that in terms of living space, building cost, and many other factors, displacement is a much better comparison than length on deck. A 24' 8000# boat is a VERY different beast from a 24' 3500# boat.

[Benchdog]

I went over to the John Hesp site. 'Hope' is a nice design. Interresting way of building (frames and bulkheads first). She looks like she has inside ballast compartments.

Bruce- thats a good comment on displacement. I'd say I'm in the heavier range.

Jim D- I figure Atkin was a great designer. I can't see him designing that boat without a CB, if it needed one to go windward. I keep looking at those lines plans and I can't figure it out.

[Nicholas Carey]

I've always been rather fond of the Nigel Irens' designed luggers ROXANE (29 ft 6 ins LOA, draft 2 ft 6 ins, board up) and ROMILLY (22 ft LOA, draft 1 ft 8 ins w/board up). Nigel Irens page on these boats is at http://www.nigelirens.demon.co.uk/FRAMEcruising.htm

Ed Burnett has developed a strip-planked version of ROMILLY (ROMILLY SPV), the plans for which and more information are available at his web site here (http://www.burnettyachtdesign.co.uk/romillyspv.html). Here's a couple of views of ROMILLY:

http://www.burnettyachtdesign.co.uk/images/romspv/roms13.jpg

http://www.vanveenjachtbouw.nl/pictures/Romilly2-page.jpg

And here's a picture of her larger sister, ROXANE:

http://www.nigelirens.demon.co.uk/images/roxane-cover.gif

[Ed Armstrong]

Regarding windward performance, I sail a plastic-classic Cape Dory Typhoon that draws 2'7" without a board and with a similar keel shape to Atkin's designs. While it's windward performance is not that of a centerboard boat, it makes respectable progress upwind when close-hauled. If you want a racer, a shoal-draft full keel is probably not the ticket, but I think it works well for a protected water cruising boat.

Ed

[Benchdog]

Regarding windward performance, I sail a plastic-classic Cape Dory Typhoon that draws 2'7" without a board and with a similar keel shape to Atkin's designs. While it's windward performance is not that of a centerboard boat, it makes respectable progress upwind when close-hauled. If you want a racer, a shoal-draft full keel is probably not the ticket, but I think it works well for a protected water cruising boat.

Ed


Good point there are alot of Typhoons in my area. They were made nearby in Taunton, MA. I've never been in one but they wouldn't be popular if not a good (well behaved) sailer.

[Dave Fleming]

Yes I have the plans for Hearts Desire II.


The plans were originally drawn up in 1953. In 1956 there was a change made to the ballast keel. Instead of a big honkin' plank of Greenheart as ballast keel, a plank of White Oak with a cutout for a piece of lead approx 990 lbs (+/-) inset between fore and aft pieces of that WO with cheek pieces faired port and stbd.

I chose Hearts Desire because I can see it being trailorable with that flat keel coupled with a tablernacle for the mast should do fine for my wife and I.

I plan on planking the below chine hull with plywood covered with something like Dynel, Kevlar.
Where Atkins shows lapstrake topsides I will carvel plank, tight seam.
Headroom seems to be tolerable under the coach roof and over the head aka porta potty. I have a few other mods construction wise, that I am contemplating also.

When I loft it I will be better able to see if I can sneak a few more inches of headroom under the coachroof.

[Dan McCosh]

I've always wondered just how much draft is needed for an offshore boat. I've been looking at a 30 ft.x9 ft. sloop of about 12,000 lbs. displacement with a 38 ins. draft and a 7 ft. board. Looks very wholesome, but it's shallow draft compared to most offshore boats.

[Dave Fleming]

I don't consider Hearts Desire a real offshore vessel.
More for coastal cruising or places like San Francisco Bay, Puget Sound, Long Island Sound.
I think of it as a day boat with cabin enough for a small stove, bunks and Porta Potty for SWIMPAL.
Sail area is under 300 square feet with displacement approx. 6,375 lbs..
Draft is just under 3 feet.http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/images/HeartsDesireII-1.gif

[Jay Greer]

One thing to remember about Serrafyn is that Larry and Lynn Pardy are not tall people and so can fit into a boat that would seem crowded to those of us who are close to six feet. However, one can stand in the open hatchway and have unlimited head room. After that, most of us will choose to sit down or lay down. In a seaway, having excessive open room below can make one rattle around like an olive in a mason jar. So I prefer a snug cabin. On deck, where most time is spent, one needs clear space to sprawl out or move about unobstructed when working the ship.
So far as skinny water boats are concerned, my favorite is L. Francis Herreshoff's "Meadowlark" This is a 33'ketch with 8' of beam that only draws fifteen inches of water with the boards up. No dingy is needed because you can run the boat up on the beach when sailing in shallow soundings. The low dead rise of this boat makes it trailerable as well.
JG

[sv Lorelei]

I've always wondered just how much draft is needed for an offshore boat. I've been looking at a 30 ft.x9 ft. sloop of about 12,000 lbs. displacement with a 38 ins. draft and a 7 ft. board. Looks very wholesome, but it's shallow draft compared to most offshore boats.


Dan, if you're thinking offshore, you're much better off thinking in terms of displacement rather than draft. A lot of the old CCA boats in the 50's and 60's were keel centerboarders with relatively shallow drafts by today's standards, but did just fine offshore. One thing to take into account however is how robust the board and its case are. more than a couple have snapped off or bent in severe circumstances. Not necessarily bad, but it's one more thing to stay on top of.

[mgpedersen]

I recall reading an article about one of Bruce Kirby's Norwalk Island Sharpies (the 31 I think) that had a really high limit of positive stability (something like 128 degrees). So it's possible to get good oceanic safety (from the stability perspective) in a shallow boat.

Having said that, I think if shoal draft is what you're after along with offshore capability, then you can't go wrong with the Presto shape (by Commodore Munro). It's actually got quite an impressively modern look to the sections - very much like a Farr boat with low deadrise and lots of flare, although not quite so beamy aft like Farr draws.

Please excuse the rambling, I'll eventually get to the point. One of my favorite designers is Sam Crocker. He did quite a few Presto shapes in his lifetime. His design portfolio hits a real soft spot for me - nice solid cruising designs uninhibited by stupid rating rules, husky and graceful at the same time. The book his son wrote, Sam Crocker's Boats (http://www.amazon.com/Sam-Crockers-Boats-design-catalog/dp/0877421951/sr=8-1/qid=1158871506/ref=sr_1_1/102-5499476-6148167?ie=UTF8&s=books), now there's a great thing to help you through the winter. I heartily recommend buying this and not making any decisions until you've had time to digest it.

Matt

edit: One last thing: Roger Taylor wrote about the Presto in one of his Good Boats series of books. I seem to recall part of the story revolved around a bet that the Presto couldn't be a centerboard boat. It seems it was blowing squirrels out of the trees at the scheduled start of a race, and Munro was out to watch the start in his Presto. A big old tug yacht came out and cancelled the racing - apparently nobody felt like going out that day. But when somebody on board the tug yacht related to another that the Presto was a CB boat, the reply was incredulous and the bet was on. Apparently the non-believer didn't think a CB boat could handle that kind of weather with the aplomb of the Presto. So they hauled her up on the beach and the bet was paid.

One more last ramble: Rumor has it that the only person that Nat Herreshoff ever admitted to learning anything from regarding boat design was Commodore Munro. So don't discount the Presto.

[Paul Pless]

Then I started to think I'd like a seaworthy little cruiser - Channel Cutter style - but shoal draft / centerboard - 20' to 26'(ideal 24') - draft less than 3' - beam around 8'. I'm probably not going to be sailing to Europe but I might like to take a big trip up to Camden or Desert Island etc.


How 'bout the Farne Islander, it comes in at 20 feet and draws 18" board up? She's certainly got "the look" that you want. Perhaps you could even get Ian to stretch her for you up to that ideal 24'.


http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/designers/oughtred/FarneIslanderCruising.jpg

[donald branscom]

Yes I have the plans for Hearts Desire II.


The plans were originally drawn up in 1953. In 1956 there was a change made to the ballast keel. Instead of a big honkin' plank of Greenheart as ballast keel, a plank of White Oak with a cutout for a piece of lead approx 990 lbs (+/-) inset between fore and aft pieces of that WO with cheek pieces faired port and stbd.

I chose Hearts Desire because I can see it being trailorable with that flat keel coupled with a tablernacle for the mast should do fine for my.......

Hey Dave I thought you were going to build William Atkins' JOAN.
Not that i haven't changed my mind a few times either.


Don

[JimD]

Joan seems like a real old fashioned sort of boat. Narrow, deep, and heavy. 18'2" long, 5'6" wide, 4'4" draft, and 2600# ballast. Not shoal draft but I bet she could be a very capable little pocket cruiser.

[Dave Fleming]

Hey Dave I thought you were going to build William Atkins' JOAN.
Not that i haven't changed my mind a few times either.



Where'ja come up with that notion?

[Benchdog]

Alot of good designs out there.

I recently read an article that mentioned when Slocum rebuilt Spray he did so without a centerboard. At over 36' she had a draft of only 4'3" but had a whopping 36000 lbs displacement.

Dave -I like many of Atkin's designs but for some reason that Heart's Desire keeps catching my eye. A nice little ship. I wonder what goes into the decision for a designer to put in (or not) a centerboard.

My main reason for wanting a shoal draft boat is that my mooring is in 3 feet of water (mean low water). I'm not sure I'll nessesarily do much trailering. Most of my sailing has been local but I'd like to be able to take some trips up or down the coast someday.

JG- I worked in a boat yard (Mattapoiset BY) a while back. There was a guy there with a Meadowlark. I thought it was an odd looking boat but the owner sure was happy with it. Big lee boards.

Matt - I'm not familiar with the Presto design or Commodore Monroe. I'll have to look into it. Sam Crocker did indeed design nice boats. I'll have to take a look at that book again. I think I got it from my library a while back. A local yard (Eddy and Duff) built a glass version of the Stone Horse. I see many around here. Very nice boats.

Jay -I like a snug cabin and room on deck. My wife and I are not very big ( 5'8" and 4'10"). I don't feel I need much standing headroom inside the cabin. Most of my time is spent on deck. I do like having an area where I can spread out a chart. On my current boat (a catboat) I just have a varnished piece of 1/4" ply that I have a chart clipped onto. Most of my plotting is done in my lap.

Paul - I like Ian's boats. That Farne Islander must be a new design as it is not in his book. Looks like a fine boat.

[Dan McCosh]

Dan, if you're thinking offshore, you're much better off thinking in terms of displacement rather than draft. A lot of the old CCA boats in the 50's and 60's were keel centerboarders with relatively shallow drafts by today's standards, but did just fine offshore. One thing to take into account however is how robust the board and its case are. more than a couple have snapped off or bent in severe circumstances. Not necessarily bad, but it's one more thing to stay on top of.

This particular boat is an old Chris Craft Capri, designed by Sparkman Stephens. It had a long successful track record in Mackinac racing, and is very strong. To me, it seems to have the lines of a sawed-off Finisterre. I was always wondering about the righting moments, etc., compared to something like a Bristol Channel cutter, which it resembles in profile. The long keel seems to make it track and steer extremely well. I just haven't seen anything like it recommended for offshore sailing.

[sv Lorelei]

This particular boat is an old Chris Craft Capri, designed by Sparkman Stephens. It had a long successful track record in Mackinac racing, and is very strong. To me, it seems to have the lines of a sawed-off Finisterre. I was always wondering about the righting moments, etc., compared to something like a Bristol Channel cutter, which it resembles in profile. The long keel seems to make it track and steer extremely well. I just haven't seen anything like it recommended for offshore sailing.

Dan, IIRC the Chris Craft Capri was a 19 foot inboard runabout. S&S did a couple designs for CC, the Apache and the Commanche (not to be confused with Wirth Munroe's Commache which was a 33 foot keel centerboarder which raced very successfully). The Chris Craft's were full keeled I think. The builds on some of the early Commanches were a bit dodgy. They used Airex foam coring in the decks and deckhouses which were initially a bit underbuilt. In one of Hal Roth's books he has a snapshot of one where the deckhouse was crushed by a breaking wave. Otherwise, I think a couple have gone around quite successfully.

If you look at older designs in particular, you'll see that there was less concern about righting moment from the aspect of catastrophic recovery and more from the aspect of functional stability. Apparently most of the old timer's felt that it was better to design a boat that wouldn't tip over in the firstplace rather than one that could right itself once it did.

[Dan McCosh]

Dan, IIRC the Chris Craft Capri was a 19 foot inboard runabout. S&S did a couple designs for CC, the Apache and the Commanche (not to be confused with Wirth Munroe's Commache which was a 33 foot keel centerboarder which raced very successfully). The Chris Craft's were full keeled I think. The builds on some of the early Commanches were a bit dodgy. They used Airex foam coring in the decks and deckhouses which were initially a bit underbuilt. In one of Hal Roth's books he has a snapshot of one where the deckhouse was crushed by a breaking wave. Otherwise, I think a couple have gone around quite successfully.

If you look at older designs in particular, you'll see that there was less concern about righting moment from the aspect of catastrophic recovery and more from the aspect of functional stability. Apparently most of the old timer's felt that it was better to design a boat that wouldn't tip over in the firstplace rather than one that could right itself once it did.

CC did do a runabout Capri. The sailboat is a 30 ft. centerboard design, originally built for cruising/chartering in the Bahamas, I think. It is a solid layup, balsa-cored decks, with, I think a 9- 6 ins. beam. Has an oddball look to the exterior, with the interior virtually identical to a mid-1950s Chris Craft express cruiser. It's arguably the most radical hull design of the Chris Craft sailboat efforts, packing lots of interior volume in a short hull with plumb stem and vertical transom.
(also a 25 ft. Capri--different boat.)
The specs are here: http://www.djerickson.com/ccsail/boatspec.htm

It was the only centerboarder in the group, with a 3 ft., 9 in. draft.

Interesting is that with about 60% the displacement of a Westsail 32, it has about the same interior volume. The ballast/displacement ratio also is about the same, but with a foot less draft (board up).

[Dave Hadfield]

If you're coastal cruising, it's hard to beat shallow-draft. All our waters are becoming more and more crowded. If you pull into an anchorage an hour before sundown, and you draw 5ft, odds are you won't find a spot. But if you draw under 30", you will.

Then there's the safety issue -- if a storm is brewing, and you're looking for shelter, it's wonderful to be able to pull into a creek-mouth. There's no sustitute. We did a 2-week cruise along the North Shore of Lake Superior once -- a wild, hostile region -- and regularly hid where no modern production sailboat ever likely would, in a boat with an 18-in draft.

Munroe showed that stability has nothing to do with centerboards 100 years ago.

[chrisk]

If you've gottten around to checking Munroe style Presto's you'll want to stop by Reuel B Parker's web site.

http://www.parker-marine.com/

Don't know if they have the looks you are after, but the his Presto series and Exuma series are of the Munroe Presto type of boat.

Chris Kottaridis (chriskot@quietwind.net)