Bangor Packet Interest & Questions

[Varna]

Hello,
I'm new to posting on the WBF but I have read threads for awhile and have learned alot here. I've subscribed to and enthusiasticaly read WoodenBoat Magazine for many years and built a few small boats- mostly strip/epoxy and one glued lap plywood- which I find ideal for me and my situation.
I've read all I can find here regarding Joel Whites' 'Bangor Packet' but have not heard anything on performance and behaviour in the water. I have plans and want to build a 4mm okueme lapstrake version. I am new to sliding seat rowing and I have the Piantidosi RowWing adapted to my Atkinson Traveler and will use that for my beginner training boat.
I would really appreciate any comments and experiences from anyone who has used 'Bangor Packet' regarding its handling- especialy in choppy water/windy conditions. It seems ideal for that situation.

[garland reese]

Hey Varna,

I'm sorry. I don't have specific experience with the Bangor, though I've looked at the design, even considered it at one time; so I am at least familiar with the boat.

If you are new to sliding seat, it would be advisable to give it a while before you buy plans and start building. You will find the learning curve a little steep at very first, but you'll get more and more comfortable and capable pretty quickly, if you spend time on the water. As you progress, you may well find the Bangor to be lacking in performance for sliding seat rowing. The bangor is very beamy and not very long, so there are limits to it's performance; on the other hand it will be able to be out there in a good chop and handle things with ease, as compared to a higher performance boat.

You may have already considered all the things I mention, and if you have, then the Bangor may be just the ticket.....it really is a nice design. But most folks I know, and I've been around sliding seat rowing for a little while will quickly find themselves with a desire for more performance from a shell. The sliding seat concept was developed for fast rowing, and is most enjoyable when doing just that. There are lots of fixed seat boat out there that would be even more capable of keeping one out of trouble than the Bangor in rough waters, and lots more versitile.

It all depends on what your ultimately looking for. What ever you decide, you can most likely feel confident that the Bangor will perform up to her suited purpose, as Joel White was a very good designer, indeed. It is a lovely boat as well.

If it is a sliding seat performance you really are wanting, the Kingfisher probably has the best compromise between pure performance and rough water capability than any other plans available. You may even be able to adapt the boat to the Piantidosi rig......... the best drop in on the market, BTW.. ;) The CLC Oxford shell is a great boat and very nice looking, and designed around the Piantidosi drop-in. I have rowed this boat (a friend of mine built one for himself), and it has a nice bit of speed potential, a decent run, and is rock solid. Very classy looking on the water. I doubt it would give up much to the Bangor, if anything.

Good luck in your search!!!

[Clinton B Chase]

The Bangor Packet would be a great learning boat...you should do it...having studies the lines, not rowed one, it appears that she'd take some chop np problem and it would be easy to convert to a glue dlap hull since she was a glued boat anyway. I would redraw the plans and line off the hull on paper...it takes some finesse to line off a hull so it looks right...I know I have a long way to go!

Cheers,
Clint

[rbgarr]

I've been interested in the BP also and even written to ask for info on the BP double (no response). There's a guy in Thomaston , Maine who has (had) a warehouse full of old rowing shells, oars, etc. including a lapstrake BP. I saw it there, but didn't row it or pursue buying it (pretty rough job). Try asking your question via contact info at this website. http://www.epifanes.com/contact.html

You don't say where exactly you are in Northern California, but are you aware of the Open Water Rowing folks in Sausalito? http://www.owrc.com/ They may be a good source for more info on rowing in choppy water in general.

Good luck.

[Varna]

Thank You all for your helpful replies. I live in the Sierra foothills and have a small calm lake nearby which I visit frequently and paddle kakaks and canoes - ideal to begin sliding seat rowing. I have the typically large boat nut library - including 'The Sculler at Ease' which Ron at Wayland Marine recommended as an Intro. My interest in sliding seat rowing is primarily - #1 Just being out on the water itself #2 the all around great exercise of rowing - especially sliding seat. I spent many years kayaking Sierra Rivers whitewater but as I am aging that it is becoming less 'Do-able' for very logical reasons ;-]
So I began to think this is a great new direction to go with a broad variety of waters in which to row and travel and the many boat types etc. A very favorite semi-secret sailing lake in the area offers a large venue in a beautiful rugged area with terrific camping. The wind and chop will likely be a bit much for the true shells so the Bangor type seems a great all around exercise and trainer boat. And of course the SF bay area and other coastal areas one would expect chop and wind conditions.
Thank You Garland for the many comments and encouragement. I have many times pondered on the Kingfisher and may bite in a few years if I progress - just the challange of building one well is attractive. I have heard mention in these threads small bits of sliding seat conversation and was hoping you may have some advice as you have experience in the type. But haven't heard much on the Bangor specifically.
Thanks Clinton for the Lapstrake Lining Off comments. I have only one lapstrake boat-build so far- Oughtred !2' Acorn. Which has the strake locations defined. It was a good way to begin to see the inherent issues of lining off. I have made a mold for a stretched to 12' WeeLassie from the Rushton book offsets. I am using the Tom Hill method with the stringers in the mould and got a first hand intro into the lining off issues and compromises. And later I bought Ian O'treds book from Our Sponser and I think he has the best explaination I have found. The Bangor may be tricky in the forefoot and stern as they are so long and easy it seems the garboard will run long and narrow as it comes into the stem and stern proper. I'm not an expert builder by any means so I could be way off on this concern. It is the only bit that I have wondered in converting to Lap ply. You mention a lap version being built so it is doable. Another similar PullingBoat I've looked to is Gardens 'Blister Boat' which would adapt easily but is much smaller.It would expand nicely to 18'-5" on 13"stations.
RBGarr- thanks for the mention of the Open Water Rowing group in Sausilito. I hadn't heard of them, I do recall an artical in WB several years back on SF Bay rowing clubs but don't recall exactly which groups. Open Water Rowing is more the type I am drawn to as I enjoy 'weather' and much of the waters available here can have 'weather'. I also am attracted to the Idea of some camp/cruising in the sea of cortez someday and a cartoppable rowing/sailing boat may be the way I would like to go so no trailer to hassle with down there. The recent article in WB shows the way.
I think the Bangor may be in my future, and of course a great way to lend Homage to a terrific Man of Boats- Mr. White.
Thank You All, John

T

[Tom Hoffman]

Hi Varna, I too am of the older age group to consider a bangor packet, after looking at it longingly, I gave up on it as it was too small for me, I am over 300 lbs. 6'5" tall. I ended up building an elongated Whitehall 20'. I am just getting ready to finish it over the next week or two. I have always wanted a sliding seat rowing shell, but because of my size, it has been impractical. I have recently found a book about Skin on Frame kayaks. One model looks like it would lend it self very easily to being a rowing shell, it has a drop bow and stern, it is very long, and can be made to fit your body measurements and has a great weight carrying capacity. The most difficult modification would be to turn the cock pit around and modify it to suit the sliding seat rig, I have a set of Graham King's plans for the Kingfisher, and with those design specifics it dosen't look to hard to build. Cost would be very low, one good 20' spruce (white wood) 2X4 and some incidental wood such as ash or other light strong wood for ribs and stringers.

Anyway, it is going to be my next boat.

The book is Morris's Skin on Frame Boats

The boat is the Netsilingmeot Kayak on Page 171.

A very interesting looking boat.

[garland reese]

You are quite welcome Sir! I love rowing. I still have many many technical issues regarding my own rowing prowess, but the sport is so very challenging and being on the water is just simply incredible. Personally, I'm getting used to rowing upside down every now and then ;)....

The Bangor seems to have much of the basic design characteristics of a typical recreational rowing shell, and would certainly be a nice boat to have in one's personal inventory. As you become more adept at slidining seat, you may find yourself wanting more performance from a boat........that would be a great excuse to build another shell!! ;).

Doing the Bangor in lapstrake may be a bit tedious, as you mention; the long and easy tapers on the ends may make for a bit of challenging work in tapering the planks, but no doubt it would be a showstopper in the final analysis.

Since you mentioned that you'd read Frank Cunningham's "Skuller At Ease", you might enjoy the link below. Frank is an incredible man who has been a tremendous ambassodor for the sport of rowing, and at 84, he seems still going strong.

http://www.king5.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/showVideo.php?vidId=88615

If you get the chance, check out the website of our new boathouse here in Oklahoma City. One of our Masters rowers just brought home some medal hardware from the Master's Nationals, and also two Gold medals in the Men's singles at the FISA World Championships...... we're incredibly blessed here at our boathouse. We are having our annual Head Race next weekend...........to include a series of 500 meter sprints, beginning on Friday night. This is the first time that anyone has ever rowed "under the lights". We will light up the river with those giant lighting trucks for our Corportate challenge event, as well as other sprint events for Juniors, Masters and Collegiate rowers........should be interesting to say the least. Head racing begins on Saturday......
http://www.chesapeakeboathouse.org/index2.html

Sorry to steal the thread here, I just get too wrapped up sometimes...

I hope you build the Bangor. I've entertained the same thought, mostly because it is from the desk of Mr. White. Be sure to post progress pics if you can! I'd love to build myself a Kingfisher. I think it's a good boat. The Bangor might well allow for more safety though, if you are rowing solo a lot. Going over in a shell is not just a possibility........if you row much, row hard, or row in challenging conditions, you will very likely go over. I'm not sure of self rescue in the Bangor, or with the Piantidosi rig in general. I think they are usually mounted quite securely. Since you'll likely have to work out the details of a mounting system for the drop-in unit in the Bangor, you can design in a good solid system. Gary Posts here quite a bit. He is a great guy.

I look forward to seeing the Bangor in glued lap.......that will be a classy craft!

[JimConlin]

On the 'sportiness' scale, from a full-on single scull, Kingfisher, Bangor Packet to Tom's very nice strip composite Whitehall,
near the sedate end, there's Kan Bassett's 'Liz', at 18' x 3'. I Used a Piantedosi rig.
I do think that it'd be a better single at a longer length.
http://www.conlin-boats.com/lola_78d_2.jpg

[Tom Hoffman]

Here is a pic of my unfinished Whitehall 20'
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k276/slvrgost/Ready.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k276/slvrgost/Inside.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k276/slvrgost/Onthetrailer.jpg

I did try to make the stern and bow have the same approx angles as the bangor packet and the liz. (I have the liz plan too). There was not enough detail in it for me to build....

[Varna]

Hello and thanks for the replies. I just lost a very detailed response to Garland,Tom,and Jim. Very frustrating that the program will not retain text- at least I don't know how to retrieve it-I touched the mouse unintentionaly and "POOF-Gone" Very Cool feature indeed ;-[
Well I will proceed with the Bangor and Lapstrake. Working out a build method is still in the birthing phase. I am leaning to the JohnGarden method described for the Herreshoff RowBoat. Small lamnt'd spruce station frames on 12" centers as the building jig with the keel and stems. 4MM 3 ply Okuemme. Glued laps and brz ring nailed to frames. I have purchased tubes of System3 'gelmagic' for the speed and ease of laying down 18-20 runs of adhesive. I will do a mock up/test run first to see if I like it and if it goes well. Otherwise I'll use WestSystem as always. The Deck plan I will not change and like the removable approach but not clear yet how White dealt with the cockpit coamings and the removable ply deck panels. A seam forward of the foredeck coaming on a deck beam? The deck beams are tiny and far apart so I doubt that. Anyway that will work out in time.
Really Beatiful Boats you guys. Tom with your size and power the 20' is a DBL and Single I presume. a Very versitile boat all around- Camping and exercise touring a great choice. I never thought of S.O.F. for S/S wherry but it is a great way to go obviously for a light fast hull and easy to deck as well. Great Idea and hope to hear you persue and develop that. Even a chine shape like the Kingfisher seems it would adapt with some mild tweeking. Jim you have built a gorgeous 'Liz' I love that combo of white lap hull and varnished Walestrake. Classic Voluptousness! Why do we love these boats and call them she's? :-} I seriously considered a Liz then decided I already have the Canoe in a similar beam to learn in and that if I take to S/S well enough I will quickly went Narrow.
Thanks again Garland for your enthusiastic encouragement, links, and history. This is why a few years ago I began to ponder the move to S/S rowing. SO many possibilties and venues and types. Where I grew up the college had 'Crew' so I saw a full range and even the Olympic Trails for '72 I believe was the year-Long Beach Marine Stadium- S.Cal. I saw a full range of ages as well and was always impressed that 'Older Bones' were as good as younger many times, so that lodged into my memory for future I guess- which future has come. So time to give thePlastic Perception River Boats away. I had a good chuckle with your comments on 'upside down' - it is very interesting what one learns about life, self, and others in the Inverted Boat Condition...I never thought about it in shell, but now that you mention it...;-). I grew up in Scouts as a youth and that instilled very good senseablities regarding safety and group awareness and equipment. I have seen horrendous incompetence on class4 and 5 rivers here in California and been in the right place at the right time twice to effect rescues - once particularly bad to a young lady beginner whos party preceeded her down a class4 rapid on the lower Kern and did not bother to eddy out at the end. She rolled and swam right away, got into a whirl pool pot about 6' around on river right with her boat on end. I will always remember her face and look of relief when she saw me extending my hand and pulling her out. The Rapids name is fitting perhaps-'White Maidens Staircase' Interesting. So anyway I always say a prayer as I venture forth as even the most serene water can bite fast. So as well as the fun and awe etc that comes with boating I feel the full measure of the experience is enhanced by the awareness and appreciation of it magnitude as well. I imagine in a shell with feet in shoes attached to stretcher and somehow the sculls not positioned at the moment to brace on a full roll is fast to occur and getting feet out now is the critical move. It is a serious sport once getting to the performance/narrow hulls. Part of the draw for me- the required skill and dedication to the rituals of it.
Anyway sidetracked there from the Thread but non the less pertainent to Bangor and S/S Rowing. It will be a year I imagine before I can have Bangor in water. In the mean time I go with my Canoe and see how I do and begin find the feel of sculls. Cheers to all and Thanks!
John

[garland reese]

Good luck and God bless Sir. It is addictive, to be sure......

[scully]

I apologize for comming into this thread so late, but would like to add some comments and an additional design into the mix. Like Garland I also feel that you will quickly feel/find that the Bangor Packet design to be very limited on performance. I think that you will find it very similar to your Traveler set up for rowing. After rowing your Traveler for a year during the building process you mentioned for a new boat you will be more than ready for a jump to a boat along the lines of the Kingfisher or perhaps the Steve Killing design Dragonfly http://www.bearmountainboats.com/22-4Dragonfly.htm either of these boats would be provide far more performance and yet still be considered open water boats. The dragonfly design would also be adaptabe to a glued Lapstrake method of construction. Phots of the Drargonfly built in woodstrip epoxy can be seen at the following URL http://www.canadiancanoes.com/gallery/album06
I tried to attach photos with tis post as others have done but haven't been successful.
Scott

[Varna]

Thank You Scott for adding your thoughts on Boat choices. I will seriously look at and consider the Dragonfly, which I have not heard of until now- but am familiar with Mr Killings kayak designs and have the KayakCraft book. I do want to stick with glued lap ply as I have a stock of 4 and 6mm ply already and hope to never fill sand and fair another epoxy sheathed boat ever again- unless it is something like a Gartside 22' Cutter or something- I would bear that burden in good cheer. What I am gathering is that once basic skill is advanced waterline beam becomes a
the issue to diminish as soon as possible. What I am interested to hear is what the limits of beam/waterline beam may be for a seaworthy openwater type- again a wherry type hull for lapstrake, perhaps a bit shorter sculls than typical, decked and positive floatation and ease of bailing etc. At 2'-1" beam max Bangor seems fairly narrow, seaworthy and structurally strong- which is important to me. I look at Kingfisher and see a shape which is faster at 1'-7" for sure and longer LWL = more hull speed overall, but wonder about general seaworthiness in a larger chop and say 15 kt winds as a max condition. Isn't Kingfisher going to begin to be marginalized if one is caught out in a rising weather condition with say a 5 mile pull back to the launch area. I am most concerned and looking for a allaround boat with a good seaworthiness component and will sacrifice some overall straightline speed. So some bow freeboard and flair is desireable, which the shells don't have and punching into a heavy chop in a skin decked shell seems dicey to me. But a Kingfisher, or even narrower design as second flatwater boat would make a fine Sculling quiver in my view. I just bought a batch a 80's WoodenBoat mags and think there will be articals on Bangor and Kingfisher. I would like to know more about Kingfisher. The little I have heard is that it is chine 3mm Mahogany Ply- in the true aircraft grade I believe, not Okueme ? And that Graeme King makes ply himself for his boatbuilds from veneer stock. Those materials are available- as well as 3mm Okueme which may not be strong enough for kingfisher. I am certain your right on this as you have the experience I was hoping to get hear from. I have not put any time yet into Bangor- was going to loft 1/2 size soon and draw consrutuction details and general weights calc's to see if I was going in OK direction. No harm in buying more boat plans of course ;-] Thanks again Garland and Scott- and anymore opinions and comments and experience regarding openwater boats...Please :-) Happy Boating All,
John

[garland reese]

Hey Varna,

That is the thing about sliding seat rowing boats. The whole concept of using the sliding seat is for an increased stroke length and improved power input...... but the rig itself causes a few problems. If your boat is too short, the shifting of weight fore and aft will really cause a porposing effect, thus slowing the boat down overall. If you are planning to do a fair bit of solo openwater rowing, or rowing in a situation that will require you to self-rescue, should you get into a pickle, then I'd suppose your best bet would be something like the Bangor or even a good wherry............or even a pretty longish version of an adirondak guideboat hull. Those boats are very seaworthy, and yet show a waterline that is pretty clean and quick. They may have enough fullness in the ends to be tolerable, regarding the possibility of "porposing". These boats are rowed long distances already, typically fixed seat, though there are a few who've rigged 'em for a sliding seat. The big thing, I think is just to be sure that you have a design in which you can be safe and feel confident while rowing, and should the worst happen, you can recover and get back to safe ground.

Everyone is unique in many ways, and choosing the right design, I believe, is a pretty personal issue. I do agree with your thoughts that you may well find it best to have two different boats in the future. By the way........... the Killing design is very cool. It is a bit like say, a Maas Aero, which is one of the most popular openwater/recreational level shells in most any boathouse in the US. Those basic design parameters seem to be a fair compromise between performance and seaworthiness.

Another thought would be to use a good safe wherry type hull that has a good turn of speed potential, and rig it with a sliding rigger unit, rather than a sliding seat. That would be the most advantageous setup that I can think of in a seaworthy and fast openwater rowing shell. I've been entertaing the idea of building myself a stripbuilt Adirondak guideboat, and rigging it so it could be used with traditional oarlocks, or with a drop-in sliding RIGGER unit. I think it would be a surprisingly fast little setup. Only detractor I could see with such a setup is that the boat is completely an open boat. If you ever did go over, you'd have a lot of water to deal with, just like a canoe. Most sliding seat boats are sealed fore and aft, and have well designed cockpit areas that hold very little water in the event of a capsize. That makes for a reasonably good chance that you can rescue yourself, get back in the boat, and start right back rowing without having to sit and bail a bunch of water. Maas has an option for a self bailer in the cockpit of their line of recreational openwater boats, just like a bailer that you'd see in a sunfish or something....easy enough to install, and may be a nice thing to have in an openwater shell.

Sliding seat rowing/sculling is an interesting endevour to be sure. The whole puropose of the technique is to get the most from the rowing stroke as is possible. To accomplish that you need a boat that offers as little resistance as possible. The fastest rowing singles in the world have absolutely no inherent stability. I suppose they are a bit like a track bicycle.......twitchy as all get out, but they settle in to solid performance as the speed increases. One wrong move though, and your sampling the water ;) (or in the case of the track bike, your sampling the track surface) ........... I think I've done my share of "water sampling" this season :)

I keep trying to explain to my fellow rowers that all my "goings over" this season is merely my own personal effort to train our safety staff. Our safety staff is doing a good job, by the way :D

[Varna]

Garland
I took a long look at the Dragonfly yesterday. The all strip build is very strong of course and having full strip decks as well full seaworthyness and safety are assured. It is the true shell and the dacron/nylon deck I wonder about. And yet I see them pictured in use in open bays etc, not just calm rivers and such. It is really a matter of one's own comfort level in water to begin with. Self rescue is pretty basic instinct when it is really required! Most import is just basic boat bouyancy and integrity, and my main requirement, then with some common sense one can get back in/on. I have a friend who had a very bad time on a river he underestimated in the spring runoff. He related that after his very hairy near drowning in a huge hole how he saw his yellow boat bottom when he open his eyes to get oriented and in a primal motion went to it and hauled himself up on it and hand paddled it like a small log to an eddy, which were not numerous that day. He did alot of portaging that day and gained more respect and consideration of 'river gradient' assesments before planning his outings... ;-) This was on 'Forks of the Kern' Kern River - 17 mi and only a couple of hiking trails out of the canyon if one is having a bad day. A very great and classic USA raft and kayak run.
I would forgo my aversion to building a sheathed boat for a Dragonfly- which aversion I am only half serious about. I've built 5 strip boats-the last being the 17'5" Atkinson Traveler. I had easy time with the first 4, but unknown to me at the time my sheathing job on the canoe was not fair -I squeegeed out the glass saturation coat too quickly I believe and it shows minor wavy-ness- only seen and noticed after the final Easypoxy Gloss Paint job. A minor thing but combined with the epoxy dusts permeating the shop and wood piles and everywhere I began to want to get away from epoxy work due to the dust only. Dragonfly I presume has tight bilge turns as Killings Kayak do and doubt it would go to Lap ply well. Beautiful Boat for sure and I would be glad to deal with the dusts. That may be an option to Bangor, But I really like Bangor and its classic boat look and respect Joel White so much that I likely will go ahead with that and maybe buy the Kingfisher plans and see if I think I can build one well enough.
I have the Piantidosi Unit and 9'-5" sculls so whatever I boats I build will use that unit as it will last a very long time- except Kingfisher which deserves the lightnest unit parts possible. Sculls are easy to make- I'd like to try the Hachets and have heard they are desirable for general and openwater work. I wonder if there is something to the assymetric and how that loads the shaft and translates into the hands and wrists as far as torque and ergonomics.
I too have pondered a double use boat like the guide boat or slenderized whitehall/wherry. But I ran into the gunwale height problem, which can be solved various ways, but to use the 'Rowing' that was going to be problematic- one could drop the sheer for the 'Rowing' and perhaps use tall oarlocks like in sockets like the Duck Flat set to gain height. I never persued the details of the heights above waterline as I decided to go dedicated scull sliding seat and eventually have a light weight lapstrake cartopper sail&row combo for fun casual day use, lending out, and very basic camp cruising, around 13' or so. I suppose you could do the A.G.B with the standard outside gunwale oarlocks and then a strong walestrake and mounted/removable riggers for sculling. Would you stick with the 16' standard length as well?- that too began a dilemma as I thought about it as the min length for sculling was at cross purpose with enough beam for basic rowwing... the boat started getting very heavy and I always got stuck there for what fits my need.
As regards floatation I have used Perception brand Canoe sized float bags in a sailing canoe and assumed I would do the same in a open water row boat. I like them as you can use them or not depending on the conditions. A large variety of bags are available as well for sailing dinghys- Annapolis Performance Sailing has a large selection.
Well thanks again for the reply and thoughts.
John

[Clinton B Chase]

Bump. Good discussion here, Carl.