Australian Simmons 20?

[zootog]

G'day all

I've been lurking for sometime, now I've (nearly) made my decision on which boat to build, I'm plunging head first into a Simmons 20 footer.:eek:

Can't decide on HS or LS so any advice gratefully recieved.....

My experience goes as far as restoring antique furniture, so my new project is going to be interesting.....

Hoping it'll be like a parachute jump - your second one being worse than the first as you know whats coming :D

Are their any other Simmons owner/builders here in Oz?

I am looking forward to getting started - and I hope I don't become too much of a pest, with too many questions.........:confused: .

Kind regards

Zootog

[Wild Dingo]

Gidday mate!
Well theres none that Im aware of in Aussie... West or East for that matter :rolleyes:
There are a few blokes here with a swag of info and knowledge about them though... The chap that drew the plans for the museum comes here sometimes (only Ive lost my plans and other info so cant swear of the top of my head who it was Im thinking Dave Carnell but I could be as wrong as buggary) and Mike otherwise known as Erster or Oyster bein one of the main one Id try to yarn to as hes not only repaired and restored them hes also built them

Anyway Ive given you a bump back to the top maybe someone will jump in and give yer a hoi

Welcome by the way :cool:

[erster]

Peter Page, I think, owns one that he built, and may know of someone else in that area.

For comparison I provide you some dated shots of high versus low. The unpainted plank is plus or minus the added height that you gain between the two hulls. Of course this can vary from boat to boat, in most cases, depending how the lap planks are cut by the individual builder and the overlap distance creating the finished freeboard. You should keep in mind that in the building process, at each station of frame, that you make sure that the planks are indeed the same lap, going from the bottom up.. In the plywood, with the extreme flare out and compound twists and turns that takes place in the stem and the stern, the plywood has a tendancy to "walk" up or down the pre-existing plank. So mark each one from the top of the previous plank, for a reference point. Good luck, and will check down the road to see if you have any other comment on the two boats.

In the bow area, the turn in of the stem will create some issues with planks laying completely flat against each other. Different woods bend harder and will not lay flat. So it maybe that you may need to ease the top part of your first side plank a bit for the second one to fit fairly decent and flush together, keeping any void from being created.



.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/Simmonsbowshothighside.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/Simmonshighside2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/Simmonshighsidefoward.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/simmonshighsideinterior.jpg

[David123]

My $.02
Low Side for a bay boat
High side if you plan on running a few inlets to get out to the big water

Dave Carnell has a nice website regarding the Simmons
http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/davecarnell/#Simmons

Paul's Simmons Site
http://home.earthlink.net/~tigmaster41/

And The Simmons Sea Skiff Site is good too
http://www.simmonsseaskiff.com/

[zootog]

Thanks for the imput Dingo - and the welcome.....

Erster, thanks for taking the time to offer so much advice........

David 123, thanks for the links and the advice on LS HS decision...

I'm a very keen semi pro photographer, and I intend to make a very comprehensive photographic journal of the whole process, which should help others in the future......

Just for the record - I really am starting from a standing start, my workworking tools currently consist of a tenor saw, a cordless drill and a bag of rawl plugs!! As a recent immigrant to Australia from the UK, I haven't even got a work bench - left that (and my restoration tools) in the UK. So my first part of the project is to buy the tools to make a work bench....

I'll keep my progress posted on this thread..........

Zootog (spelt backwards - go to oz)

[David123]

WEll, I haven't ordered the plans for the simmons yet....the band saw will be ordered next week. Been down the no tools route after the divorce...lol*

[erster]

The Simmons can be built with a skillsaw, sander-grinder and a jig saw, as the only power tool needed for the construction process.

[David123]

erster..

I know...I just want the band saw...lol*

[zootog]

I'm moving house soon, originally I wasn't going to start my simmons until I'd made the move... ..but I'm keen to get started - so here comes the dumb newbie question..:confused: ... How feasable is it just to manufacture the parts before any construction? House move aside, if i could resist construction until all the pieces were manufactured, this would surely be better for time,mess, inconvienience and space taken up. Obviously the actual construction time would be much shorter........

Has anybody built their simmons this way?

I don't suppose their is anybody out there who makes kits of the 20ft Simmons?:D

[David123]

Not only doable, but advisable. Many of the parts can be made up beforehand including but not limited to frames, panels, cleats, stems...

When fabricated, these parts only take up a minimum of room and they all have to be made anyway...especially the cross frames. They can live in a stack in the corner, properly protected, of course, until needed.

I read Roberts' book , Illustrated Custom Boatbuilding and he advises that you make many of the fittings before you actually go out and start building the boat. His plans detail several pages of vents, blocks and cleats that can all be made by the home builder. His point is that if you make the stuff before hand, when it comes time to install, then you just take it off the shelf and put it on. If the part is on the shelf and pre fabbed, the urge to just go out and buy one is eliminated resulting in a more cost efficient project.

In the case of the simmons, you have to make up all the transverse frames anyway, so you could start with those and they won't take up much room in the moving van when it's time to move. Stem would be next, I think. Look at the plans when you get them and I'll bet that there are many parts that can be fabricated that are less than 4' in length.

[Peter Page]

I built an 18fter a few years ago. Don't know any 20ft ones built in Aus. I'm in the East.
http://static.flickr.com/55/132722431_bc3a6db080_o.jpg

[erster]

There are numerous things that you can do before building to make your life better in the building process. Several things in the planning stages that also allows you to be portable until you get setup in your permanent building place, get some 1/4" cheap plywoods and draw your parts out. Make you a crude strongback, all portable, and removable, but can be made rigid again. The correct notches can be made now, keeping in mind the foward frames will not carry the same line, as the keel bends down, when upside down. This will require another post for adding the shot. I pattern all my parts, before cutting expensive woods. This allows you to get your angles and deminsions correct, too.

Sacrifical lumber is great for this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/strongback-1.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/patterntransfer.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/settinginhookbottom-1.jpg

Even do the planks in throw away lumber, if this is your first build.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/patternchineplank-1.jpg

There is another thread that shows lamination of the chines, too, which is highly recommended. It shows the building of the Simmons 14 and the laminated chines.


http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=55312

[erster]

If you notice here, I used two 2x lumber, screwing them together. This gives you a built in "string" for alignment purposes, too. Always check right angle to the keel for the frames, too. I place a centerline on my frames, for reference, also, to minimize any misalignment. But the strongback built in "straight edge" does not alway apply or hold true when you are doing boat in real life, and glue up of the parts. So don't hold it completely to the wall, if the eye sees some misalignement after gluing up the chines and keel. Let the wood find itself, at this point. A thicker piece of wood bends a bit diffferent, in almost all cases, unlike a thin batten.



If you look to the right you will see clamps that is applied to another temporary strongback that holds and aligns the frames, keeping them true in height, and the boat bottom square. Iits important that the the tops of the frames are level, side to side. The decks will sit on them, too.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/wellsupports-2.jpg

This shows what I did foward, in the step down of the strongback, and also shows an added knee to stiffen the stem to the keel. This is not on the plans, though.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/stem2-2.jpg

[Wild Dingo]

Thanks for all that Mike

Good to see you Peter and your boat as well

I sure hope this thread has proven helpful zootog Any other questions just ask if I see it slipping I will bump it up as the Simmons is a great little boat :cool:

[zootog]

I must say guys - I'm overwhelmed by the help and support being offered. .....Yes it is my first boat, what a great idea to use cheap lumber initially - it'll also get me used to using my power tools for the first time :D

I have to say initially I considered the 18, but having read so many posts from 18 builders who are then going on to build a 20ft, I decided to go for the 20ft option day one.....am I taking on too much?

Apart from me being 6ft 2" and 125kgs. The main reason for my project choice is to use the boat as a floating photographic platform, (and a bit of fishing) the thought of this 125kg bloke wandering around the decks of an 18 with a Nikon DSLR around my neck fills me with dread...so thats what its the 20 choice for me.

David 123 I see in another thread you started your Simmons about a year ago, can I ask how is it going mate?

The "piece of string question?" how long? assuming no major stuff ups?

I'm lucky enough to have a job that is not too time demanding, so I'm going to be able to commit about 40 hours a week at this project. Kids left home, wife doing a Phd,(busy on the PC) so no serious family commitments:)

My day job being 9-3 on a heavy day, plenty of "tinkering time". That said - I ain't built no boats before - a real boat newbie with a "can do" attitude about everything in life.

So at a guestimate how many hours work does a 20ft take for a newbie?


G'day Peter Page, Go The Eagles (Aussie joke) Your 18 looks great - do you get many of the plastic/glass boat brigade commenting on your boat?:confused:


Thanks again all, for the support you are offering somebody you don't even know.

[pipefitter]

The plans are well done. This is one of those boats that nearly builds itself and common sense follows through from the plans. I used a skillsaw,a Bosh light duty power planer,a small cheap beltsander,an RO sander, drill and a good Ryoba (most used tool) saw,sharp chisels and a low angle smoothing plane.

You should definitely build the 20. My 18 was made for skinny water and getting through some narrow and grown over mangrove cuts that open up into basins hidden from charter guides and flats hacks.The narrow boat just does fit into these stealth spots.I couldn't have managed this with the 20. Plus I wade fish alot and needed this boat on a leash at times.Only reason I am building the 20 is because it's also a beautiful boat but I'm betting I use the 18 more often.

The parts kit you make is a good thing to look at as it will perpetuate the build once you see all the parts in your own kit form. The floors all stacked in order with the keelson notches aligned,makes for a pretty picture as well as does the motor well assembly and stem. I had all the parts save the planking which was still in sheet form until I got to that process.

Good luck on the build and would like to see the progress.You're going to have a blast building this boat.

[David123]

zootog

The thread was only a month or so ago. But with all the input recieved here I've decided to build the 20 footer. I'll start that when I'm done with the CLC Mill Creek 13 and the Chamberlain dory. Hoping to finish those boats this winter. The Mill Creek is under construction now and the Dory is lofted. With any luck the Simmons will start in the spring / summer of 2007.

[Peter Page]

I too would like to build a 20fter. But I probably wont because the 18 does just about anything I want. If you take your camera out in it though you should have it in a houseing because it will get wet.http://static.flickr.com/122/257164985_c67d122ca2.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/30/42164513_9ab46886fe.jpgI have tried it with a center consul and tiller steering, far too wet at the back, you needed a raincoat on a calm day.

[High C]

... a tenor saw...
:eek: ;) :D

[zootog]

I made a typo - please forgive me, thats it now -

I'm going to have to scrap my plans to build a boat and go back to college :rolleyes:

[pipefitter]

I too have to admit that the 18 is quite handy and a formiddable boat. I have also noted from past experiences that anything that only draws 6" is going to have some spray. I am not finding issues with excessive spray or wetness unless using reverse into chop.Sofar,this has been an awesome boat. This is one nimble,agile boat and you really have to love the effortless towing, launching and retrieving. The fuel mileage is also great,even with the 2 stroke motors.I am really only to build the 20 to settle builder withdrawals and because I can take my time on it and afford it over the long haul but for now,we're sure having a blast in this 18. Everyone that has ridden in it sofar loves it and have had no issue with fishability,stability or handling under way.

For the life of me,I dont know what I will "need" the 20 for but it sure isn't from anything the 18 is lacking in my situation.I'm agile so this 18 fits me perfectly.

[zootog]

While waiting for the plans to arrive I've bought a couple of tools and built a workbench. I've got one of those Triton workcentre's with the big saw thingy in the middle, don't know how this rates in more experienced circles, but as a complete newbie to this game, it seems fine to me.

I've cobbled together a workbench whilst waiting for the arrival of my plans, my plans arrived today for the 20ft Simmons.

Now I'm at the "what the F**K am I thinking stage" having read the plans. :confused:

Not only don't I know the boaty names for stuff,gunwhales, chines etc, I'm also reading what look likes hyroglyhics, freaking fractions like 5" 13/16th's??:)

So here is the first dumb question - aimed at metric savvy builder's - do I convert all sizes to metric or go buy an imperial fence (assuming there is one) for my Triton workcentre. There's also the timber, at my local timber yard, all sizes are metric.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm moving soon, so I going to have a go at whittlin' the little bits - like the floor, on page 4 of the plan are the sizes for floor parts 1,2,3,4 & 5. Am I missing something as I can't find the sizings for the other 5 floor parts?

What wood do I use?

Aimed at Aussie builders, can I use Jarrah instead of Mahogany?

Don't take this post as negative - I'm really looking forward to getting stuck in, the only way I can justify (to my wife and master) owning a half decent boat is to build one. As it is, she thinks I've built the workbench to make some furniture for the house - sucker:D

I'm trying to think what I can tell her I'm building in the early stages, when it starts to look like a boat, I'm going to tell her I've had a message from god, to build a boat - she's blonde, she'll go with that - NOT!!!

OK - back to reading the hyroglyhics now!! More daft questions imenient!!!:confused:

[reeljob]

Looks like you;ve found a good project. I too am building a 20. AS for the imperial measurements, I'd go ahead and convert them to metric, since that's what you are most familiar with. The patterns for those first 5 floors weren't very helpful to me. I used the dimensions in the plans and created an easy to read chart and drew all of them out. More accurate that way then tracing a pattern. You do need those patterns to get the location of the notches for the stringers. I can e-mail you the spreadsheet I made if you want, though its in inches.
I'm using spanish cedar and white oak to build mine. Gen. mahogany was absurdly priced.

Good luck

[zootog]

Hey Reeljob, thanks for that mate - I've sent you a pm with my email. Love your solution to the stem on your blog.

About wood choices - would I be right in saying if the wood is the same hardness/density, substitutes are fine. i guess the ideal choice is strong and light?

[zootog]

I've found a great site for wood choices


We have plenty of tasmanian oak - its spec's are found at this link

http://www.woodworld.com.au/timber_types_details.htm?id=16

The white oak you suggested can be found here

http://www.woodworld.com.au/timber_types_details.htm?id=34

However, being in Wesern Australia Jarrah is even cheaper that Tassie Oak, its specs are here, its dry density spec is more like the white oak reeljob is using

http://www.woodworld.com.au/timber_types_details.htm?id=10

Any input gratefully recieved:)

Zootog

[Wild Dingo]

Zootog mate just go with the Jarrah... its been the mainstay of the boating industry here since the dugouts where the rage... its what I will be using if I ever get a start :rolleyes:

I left a message on the other board for you ;)

[zootog]

Thanks Dingo - got the other one just now...

[Wild Dingo]

:cool: Remember if you can document the build with many pics! :cool:

[zootog]

Hey Reeljob

Just read your site regarding the wax and the stem, shame it didn't work out....:(

I've got to start somewhere, so I've made my jig to mold the stem, I'll be cutting my 1/4" pieces and the weekend.

I used my wifes waxed cooking paper, recently liberated from a draw in the kitchen as tracing paper to get the shape transfered to the jig base.

I'm going to use this wax paper as a layer between the plywood/blocks and the stem, my rational is it'll be easier to removed glued up tracing paper rather than lumps of plywood??

I'm going to use West Australian Jarrah for the stem, a releatively cheap dark local hardwood, I think I'm going to use this for all the construction, especially as I'm going for the composite floor option, for the purists - relax and take a big breath , I just want my boat build to be quick and as easy as possible ....

Floor frames, I can't see any reference to the width of the timber for the frames, what width did you use mate?

I'm not sure I've got all the pages to my plans, I've got one page twice - so rather than try to work that out, I'll just ask questions, as they come - hence the floor width question - thanks in advance

[zootog]

I'm still a bit of a novice - and I don't just mean boat building, I'm also new to forums and how they work - so I'm going keep it real simple and direct all my progress and questions regarding my project here, in this thead. I've found myself asking questions in other threads - then forgetting where I was. I do realise that if I took the time to work everything out, I'm sure I could master forums, however my priority is to master building my Simmons 20 here in Perth Western Australia. Progress so far.........

Questions in red, all answers gratefully recieved:D

1. Decided to build a sss 20ft

2. got no workshop or bench - car now lives on drive - garage is workshop

3. got no tools or wood, so "buy as you need" seemed less scarey to my credit card.

4. bought tools and wood to make workbench, including Triton workcentre and 9" table/skill saw. - built workbench.

5. plans arrived, started on stem, going for the laminated version, cut my lams, bought lots of clamps. bought some epoxy resin and hardener, (West Systems), waiting for filler to arrive - out of stock locally. Is this good glue?

6. started drawing out floor x 11 parts. Tried cutting the angles out on table saw, made jigs but floors too big for workcentre. so, do I need a band saw or a jigsaw? If either - which is more idiot resistant:confused: How do I cut bevels on floorboards



7. How do you upload pics? clicked on the add pic and I'm asked to add a URL?

8. Can strong back be made out of 2 pieces, should this be a hard or softwood?


Thanks in advance.................:)

Zootog

[Peter Page]

Zootog, Good start
answers.
1. good
2. good
3. good.
4. Ok, not the best but will do the job.
5. I used talc after the first lot of gluing the floors with stronger fillers. Talc is easy to sand and strong enough for most things, easy to sand.
6. Cut the floors square and bevel the edges with a hand plane, wont take long as not much to come off.
7. Puit the pics on Flicka.com and past url into this page.
8. Make the strongback out of whatever you can get that can be made straight and level.
http://static.flickr.com/59/161404610_2779496a71_o.jpg
[IMG]http://static.flickr.com/71/219853730_8167dace00_o.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/52/161404616_330d632481_o.jpg[/
IMG]

[zootog]

Thanks Peter......

I'm guessing the holes in your floor pieces are to save weight??

I'm really new to epoxy - so are you saying I should mix household talcum powder in the resin/hardner to thicken it - or is this a wind up??:o

[Peter Page]

No this is true. You can buy it in pottery supply places in 20 kilo bags. For joints like your floors to the stem and transom and maybe the chine logs probably should be something stronger like silica or the special fillers for high strength gluing from Boatcote or West systems, but for gluing the hull plank laps talc is strong enough and easy to sand and cheep. It is stronger than the ply. I used about 15 kilo in my 18ft sss. But at the moment I am repairing a Fiberglass (yuk) boat with no name family talc. It is only a filler the main strength is the epoxy unless you use something like chopped up fiberglass but that is a **** to sand. And you will be doing a lot of sanding. One tool you do need is a hot air gun. That to heat and a scrapper to remove epoxy you will use everyday. Don't set fire to your boat only soften the epoxy. And buy 6 packets of disposable rubber gloves. Good luck, get in-touch if I can be of help finding anything you can't get over there in the west. http://static.flickr.com/122/288973237_0699bb5f5c_o.jpghttp://static.flickr.com/108/288973235_53aada9215_o.jpg

[Peter Page]

The holes in the floors are for ventilation under the sealed deck, I have 2 large opening ports in the deck. One each end and you must open them when not using the boat. They do save a bit of weight but that is not a problem. The floors are 25mm treated pine. Garden stuff.
Peter
37 54'03.19S
145 26'43.24E

[Peter Page]

you need more clamps

[pipefitter]

Nice Shots of your boat Peter Page. Sweet rig.

[reeljob]

About epoxy fillers- I heard somewhere (wish I knew where) that pulverized lime could be used as a good epoxy filler. It made a rock hard gay epoxy. It also managed to bubble up the paint I put on it. I would not advise using anything other than common epoxy fillers, unless you test them with whatever stuff you are going to paint. I'd stick with wood flour or colloidal silica for gluing and microballons for fairing. I don't think you'd save much money in the long run using other stuff.

[pipefitter]

I used crushed limestone for a quick and dirty fairing putty on some minor places on my Simmons. I didn't want to wait for microballoons for what I needed to do. Sofar so good.Hard to sand though but no shrinkage nor blisters. Also,they use limestone for drip check caulking on automobiles for it's low shrink rate and longevity. Just a thought incase it might be something else that caused the paint to bubble such as lack of cure time or amines present on the surface.

[Dave Carnell]

Pulverized limestone is a cheap, strong filler, but it sands like concrete. Talc is just as strong, sands easily, is thixotropic, and is readily available as baby powder.

[zootog]

Dave, Thank you for your help and advice.

I have to admit, i wasn't at all too sure what thixotropic is, sounds like some kind of dinosaur that lives in hot climates ;)

So for those others that don't know also, here is the dictionaries definition..

"the property exhibited by certain gels of becoming liquid when stirred or shaken:"

Thanks again Dave, Baby talc it is.................

[Dave Carnell]

Where it is valuable in fillers is that when you stop stirring it becomes a stable gel

[zootog]

Hi guys

Any advice on forming the bevels on the floor pieces? Before I stuff it up?:o

As I don't own a plane, I guess I need to buy one!!

Any advice on power planes - I'm guessing their all much the same..........

Thanks

Zootog

[zootog]

Just a quick update.........

Finished my multi-laminated over engineered stem :p - and enjoyed the experience. The "sticking to the jig problem" was easily solved just using a sheet of clear plastic between the jig and the laminates. Mixed the epoxy with baby talc for the second coat as Dave Carnell & Peter suggested - works a dream..........

I initially ran a coping saw to give a very rough start to the bevel, then got my rasp out - about 30 seconds later I suddenly thought its time to buy my next power tool - so I bought my first power plane - the basic Bosche model :D Made light work of the bevel on the stem.........

So many questions:confused:

I'm going for the traditional method with my sss 20, I keep changing my mind - but I'm now definately sticking to the original plan - no composite hull for me, so lots more wood...........

I can see the pro's and cons of each, but as the self appointed Simmons 20ft ambassador for the West coast of Australia I feel almost duty bound to make my first Simmons as accurate to the original as a novice can manage:).
I've always been a perfectionist, having said that I'm sure my effort will be far from perfect - but I'll give it my best shot!!

I'm still working on the floor parts and I have a couple of questions that I hope somebody can help me with......

I'm trying to find in the plans where it gives measurements where to cut the holes on the floor pieces for the stringer, stiffner holes/cut outs - found the size 2" & 1 1/2" but I'm struggling to find where to make the cuts. - I'm making all the parts before starting assembly. I can work it out on the floor pieces on the plan, but as there is not details. So far I've cut out the 11 pieces and the centre bit for the keel........

Is it ok to epoxy the pieces before assembly? If so how many coats?

Thanks in advance.........

Zootog

[Dave Carnell]

Don't waste your time and money epoxy coating the boat inside or out. It only adds time to your construction, cost to your pocket, and weight to your boat.

Do thoroughly coat all exposed raw plywood edges with epoxy.