Need help with sail plan

[ddeaton]

I received my mast and spars today for my Wittholz 17 cat. The sail plan leaves a lot to be desired on the plans. I have books - Gaff Rig Handbook and Brian Toss's Rigger's Apprentice and a couple other sets of plans. I cannot find a good detailed picture of a simple gaff rig. I can find seperate details, but tying them all together to make a clean setup is what I am lacking. I know a lot is a matter of preference, but not having the experience in the many ways of setting up the rigging, is what I lack. Peak, throat halyards and topping lift are the basics of what I need. Everyone says I need lazyjacks and I see there are 20 different ways of setting up the rig for reefing. Are there any good detailed sail plans I can get with a lot of details for a gaff rig about this size? If I lived over by the east coast I would go sit down with someone that knows and work out the details. But living in Cincy, there is no one around here that knows anything other than rigging the plastic boats. I am asking a lot here, but I am just having a hard time tying it all together. I have a 14' cat we sail now, but it has a much smaller rig that is fairly simple.
Thanks in advance,
Danny

[John B]

You'll get lots of opinions on this one.:D
This is what I think.

The more clearance between your throat crane and the throat the better so you maximise that within reason.Some funny things go on when the crane is too close to the throat.

2:1 works for me throat and peak on a 600 ft main so I simply do not see why people put extra purchases and so much additional line on small sails. You could go 3:1 I guess... whatever, keep the purchase the same so the gaff travels at the same rate.

Topping lifts from deck to cheekblocks on the mast to a point on the boom inside the length of the gaff when down, so they captivate the gaff. Use the topping lifts to drop 1 or two verticals to use as lazy jacks. When you slack away the toppers the lazy jacks go slack too. The deck end of the topping lifts should be away from the mast to make less for the saddle/jaws to catch on. Maybe on your smaller rig you could have just one topper and flag away the lazy jacks. simple is good. I only have them because we'd get smothered otherwise. On reflection ,If I were you I'd just have the double topping lifts and forget the lazy jacks. That would capture the important part of the sail enough .
I'll add more as it occurs to me.:)

[John B]

a traditional halyard with fast and hardening up ends
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid27/pe61084d09f9f37bd18aa17072df54c69/fd774e4e.jpg
The simple lazy jack topping lift combo
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid29/p4a32d66fc9769c89702c8bd4aa3c4b42/fd588859.jpg

You know about Frank Hagans gaff rig resource I presume?
http://www.messing-about.com/gaffrig/gaffdeat.htm

[John B]

Gee, am I the new threadkiller on the forum. sink it like an anchor. I thought there'd be a whole lot of interest in this one...:D

[Thorne]

Well, he has more resources that I do for gaff rigs. Is the Gaff Rig Handbook the one by John Leather -- if not, get that one.

This subject is complex enough that he may have to post photos and draw on them to show what he's considering.

I've also found that most books don't cover the fine details of rigging, either for sail or steering, but that is probably because there are many different ways to skin that particular cat...

[ddeaton]

Basically, its a gaff/cat rig. Nothing fancy, just trying to figure out the simple way to rig the lazyjacks/topping lift and keep them one in the same. Also, the reef points at the aft end of the sail foot. I see pics of a wood block with holes spaced the same as the grommets in the sail. Lines tied off and hanging down the holes, waiting to be pulled down and tied off for whichever reef you prefer. Do you cleat these off along the boom? Aft or forward of the wood block? All the ref books show all these, but leave out the final details. I have learned to sail on my 14' handycat. No topping lift or lazyjacks, and nothing to tie grommets off on aft end of sail. When I reef, it looks like a big ugly knot, works, but want to get it right on this project. I will post some kinda pics, but I just thought someone might have, or know of a good detailed sailplan that I could follow.
Thanks,
Danny

[Ian McColgin]

Do you have the sail also? On cats, the gaff is often very long and peaks up really high causing some interesting hallyard dynamics aloft.

With full sail, the peak is way higher than the mast truck and the peak halyard exerts some down pressure against the throad halyard. At first reef, the peak pulls the gaff only to the mast. At second and third reefs, the peak pulls up against the luff.

A lot of small cats get on just fine with only one lift, which still should land on the boom just a bit foreward of where the gaff's peak will lie down, assuming a typically long gaffed boat. It's not a big sail after all.

On most cats, especially wee cats, the hallyards are pulled from the cockpit. This is always less efficient than standing by the mast. Thus 2:1 for the throat halyard is pretty normal. Start from an eye at the crane, down to the throat, back up to a block and then down to the turning block a bit out from the partners on the starboard side.

The peak really depends on how you want, but a normal rig would start the peak halyard near the peak, to the truck, back to a sliding block that's on a bridel that about divides the gaff into three section, back to the truck and thence down to the turning block a bit outboard of the throat halyard.

It seems that most of the smaller cats around here reef at the mooring. That certainly lightens the clutter but limits the speed with which you can reef under weigh. It can still be done, given a bit of sea room, as cats this no sail up will lie a bit to weather of purely ahull if you tie the helm down and you can get the sail fully down, tie in your reef, and then set forth.

If you want the reef clew and tack lines always in, you may want them to terminate in a set of cleats on the boom as far foreward as you can reach while still in the cockpit. Get them up past head-bashing distance but within reach as the boat lies hove-to, boom out a little from the close-hauled setting.

One trick often overlooked on reefing clew and tack lines. Let's just take the clew but the same is true of the tack. You'll often see the line led up from one side of the boom, through the cringle and back down the other. The theory is that you've thus got the bunt of the sail well contained. You also have interesting binding and chafe problems that come to the fore for those who sail where frequent reefing is needed. Bring the clew line up from the same side as the turning block is on. Even if you reef with the line on the leeward side, the bunt will fall neatly free and the reef will snug down with good foot tension and without damaging the sail. You can tidy up the drooping bunt later.

I don't have my Catboat Association member list at hand but I recall some members out your way. Check their web site for a qualified local to help you.

G'luck

[ddeaton]

Do you have the sail also? On cats, the gaff is often very long and peaks up really high causing some interesting hallyard dynamics aloft.




It seems that most of the smaller cats around here reef at the mooring. That certainly lightens the clutter but limits the speed with which you can reef under weigh. It can still be done, given a bit of sea room, as cats this no sail up will lie a bit to weather of purely ahull if you tie the helm down and you can get the sail fully down, tie in your reef, and then set forth.

If you want the reef clew and tack lines always in, you may want them to terminate in a set of cleats on the boom as far foreward as you can reach while still in the cockpit. Get them up past head-bashing distance but within reach as the boat lies hove-to, boom out a little from the close-hauled setting.

One trick often overlooked on reefing clew and tack lines. Let's just take the clew but the same is true of the tack. You'll often see the line led up from one side of the boom, through the cringle and back down the other. The theory is that you've thus got the bunt of the sail well contained. You also have interesting binding and chafe problems that come to the fore for those who sail where frequent reefing is needed. Bring the clew line up from the same side as the turning block is on. Even if you reef with the line on the leeward side, the bunt will fall neatly free and the reef will snug down with good foot tension and without damaging the sail. You can tidy up the drooping bunt later.

G'luck

Ian,yes I have my sail. I am starting to get this.:confused: Takes a while to get all the terms. I am ok with the peak and throat halyards, have that worked out. I read more closely the chapters in Gaff Rig Handbook that pertain to reefing and lazyjacks. I then drew my own sketch and labled the parts with the proper terms. I was then able to read the text and make sense of it. It fits with what you are suggesting, Ian. I will saw out a couple reef combs and mount a couple cleats forward on the boom to make fast, one for the clew pendant, and one for the reef pendant. I think from what I am reading, I can tie off loops on the loose ends of reef pendants and just pull and make fast the loop on a cleat when reefing?

My next objective is to figure out the topping lift/lazyjack arrangment and still keep things tidy. Thanks for the answers so far, between this and reading I see light at the end.:eek:

[Benchdog]

I have a Marshall 18 (plastic). My first suggestion would be to not combine the topping lift and lazy jacks. I put lazy jacks on my boat this year.

The topping lift is helpfull for all sorts of stuff (reefing or keeping the boom out of the water on a crazy run, or hoisting your sunshower). Basicly I don't touch my lazy jacks, they are rigged loosely. Check out this link for rigging on an 18. If your boat is similar perhaps this system will work for you. You can always give Jeff Marshall a call he is very knowledgable about cat stuff.

http://www.marshallcat.com/rigillus.htm

[Ian McColgin]

There are three major ways to rig lazy jacks. The most common, seperating lifts and jacks, is well illustrated in the Marshall. The second, really more suited to large boats with very heavy booms, has the jacks hanging vertically from the lifts.

The third, which I've advocated here, is properly called Lazy Lifts but around Nantucket Sound are sometimes known as LazyIans. Look at the Marshall illustration. Imagine that two lift cheek blocks aloft and the lift itself passes in a loop under the boom about where shown. Imagine that the falls on each side come down turning into the lazy jacks are shown. You might position things just a hair differently depending on how the sail lies. It's most likely that the parts that come down in the middle of the Lazy Lift configuration would be good to run to cleats. The forward part, like the aft, just loops under the boom. The loops pass through an eye under the boom allowing them to shift as needed. If you've a varnished boom, you'll want to make a kind of tube for the lift lines to run through. I use clear plastic hose with a leather cover stitched over.

This is a two line system that gives a 4:1 mechanical advantage for lifting the boom. It will easily set up to account for the belly of the sail on the lee side, pulling the weather lift lines tightish - no loose lines flogging about.

I like adjustable lifts as sometimes when reefing it's a bit of a pain to get the points tied in at first. The sail will set fairly well in the short run if the bunt is confined between tight lifts. Also, tight lifts pick up the boom a bit, which has the advantage of depowering the sail. In this configuration it's easy to heave-to about 3 points off the wind, sheet trimmed fairly tight and helm lashed down, so the upper part of the sail's luffing but you have some air pressure on the lower and aft end of the foot. In this state, the boat will lie easy while you attend to tying in the reef points.