Designs for a river work boat?

[J P]

I need a row boat to get back and forth across a river. It’s less than 200 feet across with a “mild” current running most of the year. Some requirements for the boat:

- Ferry 1-3 people and/or stuff, sometimes heavy stuff.
- Track well and hold a ferry angle, both light and loaded.
- Drag it up on shore (rocky) and leave it for extended periods. Ugly might be a good thing.
- ‘Work boat’ maintenance (readily available paint).
- Reasonably fast build. I have tools and woodwork skills, but not a whole lot of time that I want to put into this.

Actually, I’ve been looking for a used aluminum beater but so far haven’t seen many around here that will work. And folks are either real proud of them and/or they come with an outboard which I don’t need. Most river dorys I see have a lot of rocker which doesn’t seem right for this purpose and piece of water, or they’re just too fancy. So I’m thinking maybe I should just bang together something in wood. Any ideas on designs, plans, links, etc., appreciated. Thanks.

JP

[John Bell]

Michalak River Runner (http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/riverrunner/index.htm)

[RonW]

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Oar/George.html

[Iceboy]

Google Spira International. I have no affiliation. He has some quick to knock together boats that may meet your needs. Oops, here's the url.
http://www.spirainternational.com/index2.html

[Lewisboats]

I second the River Runner

[Thorne]

Can't find the River Runner at that link -- does it have another name?

Anyway, we don't know much about the environment where the boat will be stored -- or dragged up on the rocks.

If it is anywhere near a roadway, and if locals or visitors are light-fingered, you may need a boat that is not only ugly (or ugly-fied) but too heavy for a couple of lads to carry up to a pickup truck and drive away. Having lost one dinghy to that setup I'm a bit sensitive to the 'formula'...

Perhaps something like Bob Smalser's work punt, but with more directional focus or at least a skeg? In other words, a boat built with heavy, inexpensive planks, designed for rowing across the current.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/9745605/138774752.jpg

PS - Bob, I'm NOT disin' (as we say here in Richmond) your punt -- just using it as a quick example of a heavily-built workboat.

;0 )

[Lewisboats]

Try this one

http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/15apr05.htm#River%20Runner

Steve

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Is there any other upstream/downstream river traffic?

At Symonds Yat on the river Wye there is a cable ferry - plug ugly - no oars. It just lies at an angle to the current and scoots across the river.

http://www.wyenot.com/images/2005/symondsyat/DSC_8999a.jpg

[Bruce Hooke]

I'd go for something that is pretty much the shape of your basic aluminum "John Boat." The squared-off, sloping bow is great for getting passengers and gear on board without wet feet. Being wide and flat it is easy to haul up on shore and floats in very little water. The shape is dead simple so it should be easy to build, and being wide and flat it will be stable.

I built a very simple flat bottom punt using 1x12's for sides, 1x4's for ends, and 1/4" plywood for a bottom. I bent the sides in a slight arc, cut the ends of the sides in a sweeping curve to bring the bottom up to meet the ends, and attached the scarfed together bottom with ring shank nails and epoxy. The same concept would work scaled up if you used, say, 1x or 5/4 stock for the sides (maybe edge glued to get something deeper than 11 1/4") and maybe 1/2" plywood for the bottom. I stand up and pole my boat so there is just one 1X2 thwart to keep the sides from flexing too much, but in your case some wider seats would make sense and would help to reinforce the structure. It might be nice to angle the sides out a little, but this would also add some complication to the process.

That said, what about buying an aluminum beater with a motor and then turning around and selling the motor? This would likely be quicker than building something.

[Wild Dingo]

Thorne... as soon as I saw this Ferry 1-3 people and/or stuff, sometimes heavy stuff. I thought of the exact same wee punt seems to me Bobs would be dead on perfect :cool: it even fits with the "ugly" comment he made ;)

[J P]

Thanks folks.

A used aluminum Jon-boat probably does make the most sense. I just have a compulsion to make wooden things.

Thorne,
About the environment. Horrible place, best suited to rattlesnakes, prickly shrubs, and hermits - Main Salmon River Id. Hotter than blazes to below zero, ice and snow, and dry. Less than 9” annual rainfall. Rough environment for a wood boat. Nothing there for boat “storage” yet. Maybe in the future there will be a boat shed of sorts - with a nice drift boat in it. For now the ferry boat would be tied at rivers edge while folks are there using it and otherwise just pulled out and left to the elements and whims of marauding trouble-makers. So yes, “ugly”, and not too dear to worry about are what it needs to be. If the thing is too heavy though I’d be concerned about losing way in the current. Best if the boat can be made to go fairly straight across whitewater style – boat pointed into current and rowing upstream.

Speaking of heavy and “ugly”, old timers ran these sweep scows downriver to deliver supplies. Sometimes at the destination they would bust them up for the lumber. “Beautiful” in their simplicity and practicality. River outfitters still use modern versions of them for gear boats.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y279/picsonline/m_boathist.jpg


Mr. P. I. Stazzer-Newt,
In your picture of the river Wye, is that ferryman a giant or are the ‘little people’ out and about in those parts? Those lovely ladies look to be about 2 feet tall.

And yes, at the crossing location there is other river traffic; mostly floating downstream, occasionally a power craft will come up … and sometimes from out of the sky.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y279/picsonline/m_IMGP0259.jpg

There are a few cable crossings in the area but currently they all use suspended trolleys for the transport rather than boats. Dry feet. Hopefully. The cables get flagged when the helos are working. Dangerous mix.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y279/picsonline/m_CableCar.jpg

This area is a designated “Wild and Scenic” river which puts it under federal authority. While putting in a cable-car is not out of the realm of possibilities – yet – let’s just say the authorities are not making it easy to do now days: ‘special use’ permits, various agencies, fees, engineering, engineering review, mandatory yearly inspections at owners’ expense, more fees … then there is the liability. The Wild West aint what it used to be.

[Lewisboats]

Knock something like this together, cut a hole in the bottom and make a patch that you take (ply plank with rubber glued to the inside face, bolt, screw to bottom) with you...no one wants a boat with a big a$$ hole in the thing. 1/2" ply for the bottom, 3/8" for the sides, planks for seats, chine log construction. 14 ft long, 4.75 ft beam (4 ft bottom beam), Max displacement: 1200 lbs, shown waterline displacement: 760 lbs, boat wt about 120 lbs. Stick a small skeg on one end and call the other the bow. Oh...and shown draft is 4.2 inches with a 6" draft at 1200 lbs. Say...$100 plus paint and a weekend to build it if you work fairly slow.

Steve

http://angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Stuff/FerryPunt_Linesplan.JPG

[Bruce Hooke]

Yup, that is the kind of boat I had in mind too...

[J P]

Steve, I like it!

JP

[Lewisboats]

OK, offsets for the panels in about a week...I have more hours off of work in the Mon-Tue-Wed time frame. I hope Excel is OK?
Gotta call it something...so it is FerryPunt 1.0...Ha!

Steve

[J P]

More than "OK" Steve. Very generous of you, thanks.

JP

[Lewisboats]

De Nada! Pictures requested if built.

Steve

[J P]

Pictures requested if built.


Can do.

Thinking more about that hole in the bottom ...

"What's the hole for?"

a) ice fishing
b) a place for money
c) gun port for steelhead
d) ?
:D
Actually, I'm not overly concerned about theft. When we're away for extended periods I'll leave the boat on the far side up in some willows and use a little kayak or canoe to get back accross. Only access to the other side is by boat so whoever's there would already have a boat with them. Most boaters respect others' boats. Locals are few and far between, generaly lookout for each other, and shouldn't be a problem. Visiting tourerrists have come from afar and have too much stuff with them anyway.

JP

[JimConlin]

If reasonably good rowing performance is a need, i'd want a more refined hull shape.

The LFH Marco Polo pram in taped ply construction might serve.

[Bruce Hooke]

Is the river shallow enough to pole across? I've found a pole to be a much more effective means of traveling short distances in shallow water than sitting down and rowing or paddling.

[J P]

Jim,
So far I've only found two pics of the design you mention. Any more info? For now this needs to be "simple" but I'm open to any ideas. I just need enough row-ability to hold way while crossing. I'm guessing I'll be able to do that in a punt/jon-boat kind of form. At times of higher water levels and faster flows I may have to go to 'plan B'. Maybe line upriver a ways before launching.

Bruce,
Polling *might* work at low flow. I'll probably try it. Heck, if the wind is right I'd try sailing accross. At low levels one side goes from 3 feet or so deep with a boulder bottom, to gradualy getting shallower on the other side and smaller rock. Slower current in the deep. One thing that helps at this spot is that there is a gravel bar/island in the middle that creates an eddie below it and one can slip in there and attain a little upstream progress. Haven't seen this yet at high water in May/June. Easily 2-3 times deeper and faster. The island eddie is probably washed out. Plan B.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Is the part of the river you want to work anything like that in the cable-crossing pic? 'Cos if it is them working anything blunt ended might get entertaining.

Where I come from they use a handy light(ish) clinker built boat known locally as a "cobble" to fish in moving water.

There are a couple of pictures here. (http://www.fishtweed.co.uk/lowermakerstoun/river.asp?dom=FishTweed)

[J P]

Very nice that River Tweed link. Would love to experience that some day.

Yes, a blunt ended boat in a rapid could be entertaining indeed. Might be able to get it verticle ... or smashed to bits. No, where I will be crossing is broader, calmer. Actually just about 100 ft. downstream of the helicopter in the above picture, though that doesn't show the character of the river very well.

Most of the local boats for fishing and recreation on this river are western style drift dories, inflatables, canoes and kayaks. But they're for working the full river which does have some respectable rapids. I have whitewater craft, the boat I need now is for this single purpose and single place.

[RonW]

If you want a john boat to row, paddle, pole or maybe use a small outboard on, look at this old design for workboat that can carry a load..from dngoodchild.com under power boats..

#5390--UTILITY --An 18 Ft. Work Boat
by Captain W. Mack Angas (CEC) U.S.N.
When several small boats were needed for the Public Works Division of the Charleston Navy Yard, it was considered worth while to try and fine or develop something better than the traditional bateau. We therefore decied to adopt the basic idea of a punt type outboard driven utility boat and design a boat of the size needed. The result was Utility, as handy and useful an eighteen foot work boat as could be desired for the multiudinous odd jobs that fall to the lot of the survey party and waterfront gang at a shipyard. To facilitate beaching, to give working room in the forward end of the cockpit, and to promote stability when heavily loaded forward the boat was given an unusually wide forward transom or stem, but she nevertheless has easy lines and should not be confused with the shapeless boxes that only too often masquerade as punts. Though not built or intended for speed, Utility slips over the water with surprisingly little fuss and has proved considerably faster, when driven by a 5 horse power service motor ahdna 16 foot flat bottom row boat driven by a similar motor

http://www.dngoodchild.com/5390.jpg

[Lewisboats]

JP...Here ya go!

http://angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Stuff/FerryPunt.pdf

[Bob Smalser]

I need a row boat to get back and forth across a river. It’s less than 200 feet across with a “mild” current running most of the year.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/9745605/138777275.jpg

I build those wide-bowed, flat-bottomed punts to haul and tow logs and lumber across calm beaver ponds, where the biggest challenge is getting hung up on a stump. Shallow-draft and wind-sensitive, they would be my last choice to row across a river current, even with a larger skeg. That includes the Stephen's Punt shown above.

You need a boat that tracks when rowing and isn't blown leewards in current and wind. That means some deadrise and no more freeboard than necessary, and the easiest design for your purpose is the garvey, either traditional or plywood. Gardner's Volume II "More Building Classic Small Craft" has a couple.

[Lewisboats]

Remember...it is only a couple hundred feet to get across, a little drift shouldn't hurt much... and wouldn't deadrise present more surface area to a current?

SteVen

[Bob Smalser]

Rivers around here have a funny way of getting wider and swifter with the season. ;)

But if 200' is your worst case and shallow draft is more important than tracking, then the Stephen's Punt with skegs at both ends will serve. Just keep the freeboard to what you need and no more. That Dion Punt I show was designed to carry 8 loggers and gear at the expense of massive freeboard. In a strong breeze crossing your 200' of river, the leeway on that boat could easily be 25 yards, and that's a lot of extra pulling to hit your landing.

[Lewisboats]

Some deadrise is easy to add, perhaps something like this? Draft and weight capacity have increased...waterlines here are at .65 ft (7.8") and 870 lbs. Difficulty in build has increased by about 50% although you won't need any significant increase in materials other than what is needed to stitch and tape the bottom together. Freeboard on both will run about 12" at the bows and 9.5" midships.

Steve


http://angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Stuff/FerryPuntVee_Linesplan.JPG

[Bob Smalser]

I'm impressed. I always thought the WP Stephens punt the best bang for the buck in an easy-to-build utility design, and a good recommendation. The sheer and taper provide more than just better looks over the common punt, it makes the boat easier to pull and pole.

But adding deadrise to it removes enough of the construction simplicity that you might as well narrow the bow transom a tad to reduce resistance forward even further. Then voilla....you'd have a Garvey. ;)

So I think Steve's recommendation is fine.....you can build a basic Stephen's Punt (Canoe and Boat Building available from forum member DN Goodchild) in about 25 hours and do a good job. Add skegs fore and aft, and see how it works. You can build a more complicated Garvey later if you don't like it. You can also use Steve's dimensions and draw sections to scale to get out your molds.

In Montana, I'd use 4/4 WRC fencing stock if I could get 16' lengths, plank the bottom lengthwise, and caulk and apply battens to the outer bottom seams for wear resistance. Nail the molds to two short sawhorses secured to the floorand assemble the boat inverted. The sides can be edge-glued for width, door clamps will pull the sides in, and 16' planks on a 14' boat allow you to pull the bottom planks home without steaming. I'd use hot-dipped galvanized nails and any inexpensive poly caulk as bedding compound, followed by red lead or cheap bottom paint as a primer and porch and a floor enamel topcoat.

http://www.dngoodchild.com/0146.htm

[Lewisboats]

Somzing Like Zo?


Steve :p

http://angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Stuff/FerryPuntVeeN_Linesplan.JPG

[Lewisboats]

Oops...cross post with your edit Bob. Don't you think this is getting a bit too boaty...someone else might take a fancy to it! :D

[J P]

Thanks all.

I think I'll stick with a flat bottom design for the stability, shallow draft, and ease of build. This boat will be loaded/boarded from the ends and sides. Will probably forego a skeg for turn-ability but might experiment with a temporary one. Maybe a little downstream lean will engage that chine and help with tracking. It will have wear strips on the bottom and chines too. I was thinking ply construction but Bob's got me thinking 'why not do solid wood'. I'll need to rummage through what I've got which is mostly D.Fir. I do have some WRC that I had to highgrade out of a house siding job - 20 footers and not enough knots to fit in with the rest of the job. Might be on the thin side for this boat though. Guess I could add some framing. Maybe I'll just do the whole thing in D.Fir. I was thinking porch/floor paint as well. I've been impressed with this stuff on a friends set of stairs that get daily hard use.

[edited to add] Then again, plywood might hold up better to the temperature and climate extreems that it will be left out in.

Steve, thanks again. I drew the lines from the offsets in Autocad. Not sure if I have the "Keel Line" right. Is the overall length at the top of the transoms 153"?

I messed around with the lines a little; raised and raked the ends more and narrowed the transoms a little, thinking this might improve behavior in little waves and current. But I'm no boat designer. What do these mods do, increase weight, add draft, less carrying capacity? I'm not sure I like this version any more as I rather like the straight forward "utility" look of the original. And this boat isn't about looks anyway. ;)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y279/picsonline/m_puntmod1.jpg

[Lewisboats]

"I messed around with the lines a little; raised and raked the ends more and narrowed the transoms a little, thinking this might improve behavior in little waves and current. But I'm no boat designer. What do these mods do, increase weight, add draft, less carrying capacity? I'm not sure I like this version any more as I rather like the straight forward "utility" look of the original. And this boat isn't about looks anyway."


You might have trimmed a couple of pounds by narrowing the ends, added a smidge more windage to the ends and perhaps lessend the jar (or increased the quickness of the lift) when smacking into a solid wave head on. You did trim capacity a bit, probably 30-50 lbs and reduced the buoyancy in the ends by about the same in each end, which would slow down the previous lift a bit to about the same. All in all, a minor set of tweaks that wouldn't do all that much to help or hinder in your situation, tho they might have greater effect in open waters rather than a river situation. On the bottom, in profile, the ends are a little fuller, with a straighter run in the middle. When I get back after work this evening I'll upload a DXF of the lines plan and one of the panels...Freeship has those exports built in.

Steve

[J P]

Wunerful.

Thanks, that answers my questions. I figured I must have missed something in the straighter part of the run on the bottom.

[edited to add] Thinking more about windage. The wind just about always blows upriver there. Windage might be a good thing.

JP

[JimD]

Sorry for interupting the ugly boat contest with a design with some elegance to it but how about this simple to build flat bottom plywood job by Welsford?

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/projects/walter/IMGP0340.jpg

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/seagull/index.htm#mlhk

15 or stretched to 17 feet

[J P]

Interuptions welcome JimD. That is nice, I hadn't seen it before. When I go to look at JW's work its always been "navigator? ... pathfinder? ... navigator? ... pathfinder? ... hmmm ... whaler? ..." But I'd love to have something like Seagull for morning rows on the little lake up the road. I'll put her on that list. It's a damn disease these boat lists.

This thing for the river needs to be more like a barge to haul people, heavy (deelux) camping stuff like wall tent, cots, stoves, and firewood. Then maybe building materials, tools, propane tanks, pumps, solar panels, furniture ... and ridiculous amounts of ice and beer. To pay the help. Really hot and dry there.

Actually, for a really big load of stuff I'd probably just contract one of the outfitter's big gear boats. I just need the capacity to get some bulky heavy-ish things over with some convenience.

JP

[Lewisboats]

Here are those 2 dxfs
http://angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Stuff/FerryPunt_developments.dxf
http://angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Stuff/FerryPunt_Linesplan.dxf


Steve

[J P]

Got 'em. Thanks Steve.