Lumber Search

[colestyron]

So,
I'm planning on building a wherry from Duck Trap over the winter, and have encountered some problems locating the necessary materials, which was expected, as I live in Missouri. I haven't yet done the lofting, and still have quite a few options left open in terms of which wood to use where, etc.
I've been through the various search engines for locating lumber and have met with some limited success, but I'd really be interested to know if there are any other boatbuilders out there from the Ozarks that know where to find Okoume ply, mahogany, N.W.Cedar, E.R.Cedar, W.R.Cedar, etc. As there seems to be glut of walnut around, anyone have any suggestions as to whether walnut could be used successfully for a transom, sheer strakes, guards, etc? Does anyone have any suggestions for other possible substitutes?

Thanks in advance.
CS

[Bob Smalser]

Log on and ask here:

http://www.forestryforum.com/

http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/sawdry.pl

And Black Walnut heartwood is as good as anything out there for the structural members of boats. It's strength-to-weight ratio isn't as good as White Oak, but walnut is about 20% less weight. Straight-grained, it also steam bends well if it is airdried stock.

http://www.valuecreatedreview.com/bentwood.htm

This data are from species grown in the UK, but is representative of your local wood:

Minimum Radii Steam-Bent Wood

Species (Botanical Name)/ Strap Supported / Unsupported


Douglas-fir
(Pseudotsuga menziesii) / 460 mm/ 840 mm

American White Oak
(Quercus spp.) / 13 mm / 330 mm

Walnut (Juglans regia)/ 25 mm / 280 mm


There's an old boatbuilder's superstition against using walnut in a boat...but it's just a superstition.

As walnut isn't as strong in either resistance to impact bending and splitting, for scantlings specified for White Oak I'd plus them up about 25% for walnut. Scantlings specified for weaker H. Mahogany can, in turn, be reduced around 25% for Black Walnut. If I was trying it for frames, I'd make doubly sure not to locate two adjacent fasteners in the same grain line.

In Missouri, I'd also be looking for local sassafras for planking instead of imported cedar.

[Pierre LaRochelle]

I'm going to step out of bounds here and say - Go Local! Use the wood native to the region in which you live and do not get deluded into thinking that boat lumber is so special that you can only obtain it from purveyors of fine marine lumber. Go ahead, use the walnut! You have control of the material if you understand its properties. See Richard Jagels "wood Technology" column in wooden boat magazine, and more importantly, read "Skiffs and Schooners" by the late Capt. Pete Culler. He'll remind you that "experience starts when you begin."

Best regards,

PL

[Bruce Hooke]

I think Paxton Lumber ( http://www.paxtonwood.com/kansas-city.html ) delivers down to your area. I think they have regular delivery routes that cover much of the region, or at least they used to. So, they may be a source for at least some of what you need.

A useful website is http://www.woodfinder.com

It seems like northern white cedar is not so commonly used outside its native range by anyone other boatbuilders so it seems to be especially hard to get in areas far from its native range.

[pcford]

There's an old boatbuilder's superstition against using walnut in a boat...but it's just a superstition.





You mean the "walnut is coffin wood" one?

Used it for cleats on a boat. Nice stuff. Dust is kinda irritating.

[Bob Smalser]

You mean the "walnut is coffin wood" one?


And others.

Simple preemption. Almost every old wives' tale that was ever told about converting wood I've read here at least once.

[colestyron]

Thanks, all, for the help.
CS

[colestyron]

After a long hiatus while I was out of the country, this project is ready to get off the ground. So to speak. There's plenty of beautiful walnut around, so I was thinking about all using it for the stem, stem knee, thwarts, guard rail, transom, etc. I see that Bob recommends beefing things up 25%, which is easy enough. Anyone have any experience with walnut they'd like to share?

[Thorne]

I'd always heard that walnut was rather brittle, but this was regarding antique furniture, not boatbuilding.

Best of luck, please post pics when you can!

[reeljob]

About the okoume plywood- I got a bunch from Boulter. They had good prices and were quick to ship it to me.

[colestyron]

Ended up going with Allied Veneer for the okoume. East-coast companies seem to double their prices for deliveries west of the mississippi.
Concerning the walnut: I've heard that it is slightly less impact resistant than oak. How much should I be concerned for using walnut in stem assembly, say?

[Thad Van Gilder]

I used walnut for the sheer strake on a pram...

I did ok.

-Thad

[Bob Smalser]

...I've heard that it is slightly less impact resistant than oak. How much should I be concerned for using walnut in stem assembly, say?

Walnut doesn't match oak in hardness but exceeds that of Doug Fir, spruce, yellow cedar and some ashes used routinely for stems. You'll have no problems in a small boat.

[colestyron]

This is an evenings and weekends kind of deal, and I should be starting the lofting later this week. The plans call for a 1.5 inch oak stem. Should I bump it up to 2 in, or would it be fine like it is? Its a one-piece stem, incidentally, without a cutwater.

[Bob Smalser]

This is an evenings and weekends kind of deal, and I should be starting the lofting later this week. The plans call for a 1.5 inch oak stem. Should I bump it up to 2 in, or would it be fine like it is? Its a one-piece stem, incidentally, without a cutwater.

If the plans call for WO, the worst strength difference of consequence between that and BW is shear at 31%. Bumping the scantling to 2" will be perfect.

[colestyron]

Thanks for the help. It's much appreciated. I'll post pictures as soon as there is something worth capturing on film.

[Chan]

Do you plan on ramming it in to the rocks???:)

[Ocean Spray]

Walnut will be fine. As far as working with walnut, it is beautfull wood to cut , plane, shape or carve. And it finishes really well! And like Chan said, unless you're going to bash it bow first into the rocks, it will be fine.

[colestyron]

As they say, I'd rather be in a boat with a drink on the rocks than in the drink with a boat on the rocks, but that isnt to say it always works out that way.
Walnut it is then.

[colestyron]

how bout that walnut, eh?
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/174/481345990_e4e02e2557.jpg
course she'll look a little brighter finished.

[Mrleft8]

Nice! I hope those lighter colored streaks are just that...Lighter colored streaks, and not sap wood....
If you have a good supply of air dried Black Walnut, (Juglans Negra BTW...Not Juglans Regia) you might consider planking the boat with that too,and finishing it bright, instead of using Cedar, or Sassafrass. It'd look amazing!

[colestyron]

Strictly hypothetically,
If that was sapwood, how much trouble would I be in?

[Mrleft8]

Strictly hypothetically,
If that was sapwood, how much trouble would I be in? Gonna trailer that boat, and keep it in a garage when you're not using it?

[colestyron]

Should be in the water forever excepting the winter months. But if I was?

[Mrleft8]

If it's going to be in the water most of the time, and those are sapwood streaks, not just lighter colored heartwood.... You'd be in some trouble. If you were to keep it dry and out of the elements, I'd say you'd be OK....

[colestyron]

And I thought they looked so damn pretty.
I'm clearly not a professional; in fact, just the opposite, so I have no shame in telling you I don't know, other than by the color difference, how to tell the heartwood from the sapwood, at least in this walnut. What are the definitive procedures?
Also, is there no way to seal it? I've searched and read other threads on sapwood, but none of them mention walnut. That transom was going to be bright on both sides.

[emichaels]

Well here is a little info on walnut:

e: Walnut (Juglans nigraa American walnut)
Distribution: Black walnut is native to the eastern United States, from southern Minnesota east to Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York; south to South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Alabama; west to Texas; and north through Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, and South Dakota.

General Characteristics: The sapwood of black walnut is nearly white, while the heartwood is light brown to dark, chocolate brown, often with a purplish cast and darker streaks. The wood is heavy, hard, and stiff and has high shock resistance.

Working Properties: Black walnut is straight grained and easily worked with hand tools and by machine. It finishes beautifully and holds paint and stain exceptionally well. It also glues and polishes well.

Durability: Rated as very resistant to heartwood decay—one of the most durable woods, even under conditions favorable to decay.

Uses: Furniture, fixtures, cabinets, gunstocks, novelties, interior paneling, veneer.


My question is why layup vertical to the water and not horizontal to the water. Seems the transom would live a little more amicablely with the planking.....

[Mrleft8]

Bob Smalser is better at describing the differences that I am... Just shooting from the hip, I'd say you have some sapwood there... About the only thing I can suggest, and I might be completely out in left field here.... is to treat it with a solution of Borate in a polyethlyne gycol base... I use "Bora-Care" to keep critters out of some of my lumber stacks, and to kill ones that may already be in there.
It's going to be very pretty, so lets cross our fingers....

[Mrleft8]

My question is why layup vertical to the water and not horizontal to the water. Seems the transom would live a little more amicablely with the planking.....
A lot of Wherries and Dorries use the vertical grain transom....I believe it's called "Tombstone"... In theory the narrow bottom of the transome barely moves at all, and the wider upper portion of the hull is flexible enough to move with the expanding transom...

[colestyron]

Emichaels: Vertically so that I wasn't driving a bunch of screws into endgrain, also because the hull is to be painted, so the alignment wasn't of much concern aesthetically. Thanks for the walnut info.
Left: You're speaking Greek to me about the treatment, unfortunately. Can you be a little more instructive? Where do I acquire Borate and polyethylene glycol? Is "Bora-care" your term, or a trade name? Thanks.

[emichaels]

Well I can knock off for the day now that I have learned something new, ie the grain direction orientation on wherrys and such. I don't tend to try to learn more than one thing a day, pacing myself you know, don't want to run out of disk space in the ole noggin'...

[Mrleft8]

Bora-Care is a trade name. I'll see if I can locate it....www.pestproducts.com

[colestyron]

Thanks for the info. I'm going to start a new thread concerning on sapwood so people won't be mislead by the Lumber Search title. I went home at lunch and looked at the WO stem. I think it's got some sapwood, too.

[Mrleft8]

Thanks for the info. I'm going to start a new thread concerning on sapwood so people won't be mislead by the Lumber Search title. I went home at lunch and looked at the WO stem. I think it's got some sapwood, too.
(Cue the "JAWS" shark about to attack music please.....) ;)