White Oak glued with Epoxy, PL, Gorilla Glue, Resorcinal

[few3]

There was a discussion in the "My day in the Boatyard" thread that started drifting into White Oak and adhesives used to glue it. I have used it in laminating strips 3/16" by 1 3/4" after extensive preparation to ensure adhesion. This included using a stiff SS brush to remove Tyloses at the surface pores, 80 Grit sanding ( with grain ), and "two step" bonding procedures. Before any of this even occured, I had contacted Gougeon about the concern amongst many regarding the use of the species. The tech., who shall remain name-less, stated the use of thinner stock is recommended, possibly due to the strong dimensional shifts of White Oak through seasonal changes.

At this stage, One has to ask "Why not use Resorcinal", or " Why bother with White Oak ". I still don't know why I spent so much time on a questioned adhesive/lumber combination.

I have had Resorcinal fail twice out of the few times I have used it. Both times were user errors. The first was using an expired batch ( yes it expires ), and the other was not using it in the target temperature range. These were user errors. However, I am also at the tail end of rebuilding/restoring a 1958 sloop where Aero-Lite was the adhesive used ( strip-planking, plywood blkhds, deck, everything ). Aero-Lite is almost identical (Phenol-Formaldehyde base) to Resorcinal ( The Chemist could have told us how similar, or how dissimilar ). Aero-Lite becomes brittle with age. The most notable example of this failure is in a fleet of boats called Cherubs. Unlike Resorcinal, Aero-Lite actually has some gap filling abilities although nothing compared to epoxies. The boat, A Mount Desert Yacht Yard design, was built at Vator-Oy in Finland in 1958. Aero-lite was commonly used in Europe as an adhesive for boat construction.

When Aero-Lite breaks down (temperature shifts and general movement) it looks just like broken down Hide Glue you would find in everything from older ( and better ) furniture to player piano valves. I have seen similar (very few) failures in older Resorcinal bonds. After removing the hundreds of bunged-over #8 ( metric equivalent ) screws from the deck, I was able to lift the sheets right off the deck beams with no effort, and 99% of the glue-lines failed. This bit the "Big Chaloo", but it brought to light the failures of Phenol-Formaldehyde glues (water activated or component).

Back to the point. After going through extensive preparation for the bonds, my test strips held. I have heard of White Oak/Epoxy glue-line failing when you hammer a chisel into the glue-line, but with the thin strips I can't repeat the result. I also question whether or not this "chisel test" is even reasonable considering the tear strength of White Oak and the peel strength of epoxy when hundreds if not thousands of PSI are created at the very edge of the chisels edge.

If the Acidity ( Tannins/Tannic Acid )of White Oak was causing the failure, Douglas Fir, Mahogany, Walnut, and Western Red Cedar (WRC can have a Tannin content as high as 50%) also would fail in that they have high tannic acid contents.

Anybody want to chime in with their experience of success or failures ( failures that can conclusively be attributed to the epoxy/White Oak matrix and not user error )

[Mrleft8]

I'd use Titebond 2 on above the waterline applications. (Ducking, covering head with arms, and running like hell) I haven't had a single issue with it in all the years I've used it for exterior applications....Including marine laminations.

[raymacke]

(Ducking, covering head with arms, and running like hell) !! Mrleft8 - Since you were brave enough to risk scorn let me add a little. My Cabin Skiff hull was built using exterior plywood, white oak and epoxy. Because of my allergic reaction to epoxy I switched to Titebond II for her berth and cabin, still using the exterior ply. I have had no problems I can contribute to either the epoxy / white oak conbination or the Titebond. Although this is a trailered boat and kept in the dry it has been run long, hard and pounded through more choppy water than I care to remember.

[few3]

What was, and how bad the reaction?

[Tom Hoffman]

Having missed all the forum discussion on White Oak and problems making it play well with glue. I charged blindly ahead and glued up several laminated strip curves for my bow interior and exterior. I used Titebond III which claims to be a one part waterproof glue. So far so good. I did nothing about preparing the surface of the wood, just ripped it and glued it around the form. Oh well, only time and the tide will tell if it is truly waterproof......

[raymacke]

While building the Skiff I developed a serious reaction to the epoxy. Between my fingers and on my wrist I broke out like poison ivy and it itched like crazy. I developed big red blotches on my face and my eye lids dried out then cracked and bled. No fun at all! Photo below is when it was clearing up.

http://egyptian.net/~raymacke/w7wrist.jpg

[Jay Greer]

So far as the dependibility of Aerolite glue is concerned, we once did mast replacement on a sixty foot ketch that was built in England and cruised via the canal to California. Both masts were over fifty percent delaminated and held together with screws by the time the boat arrived at our shop. The remaining seams resisted all efforts to separate the glue lines and we had no choice but to build new sticks for the boat. At that time we used Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue gluing up the new masts. Although I now have an allergy to this glue, it has never failed on any mast I have ever built.

One of my co-workers developed a very distressing allergy to epoxy during the time we were doing work for a major theme park in S.CA.
His distress was that his scrotum swelled up to the size of a soccer ball and he spent a week in the hospital with his legs in parentheses!
Ever after that time he was so allergic to epoxy that even smelling the fumes put him into extreme breathing difficulties.

I have a sensitivity to phenol resin glue due to my early days of working with plywood. The gassing of formaldehyde resin glue in plywood puts me into extreme respiratory distress. So I wonder if it is wise to use plywood in home or building construction where air circulation is restricted.

I hear that polyurathane glue can also cause allergic reactions. But I also hear that, with proper protection, it is safe to use. The main plus factor of this glue is that it is reported to be 100% waterproof and will glue, white oak as well as oily woods permantly!
JG

[JimD]

I've epoxied white oak to cedar that have so far held up a few years no problem but they are low stress joints.

[Thad Van Gilder]

I have used titebond 2 succesfully for deckbeams and other "inside" Parts.

I admit it.

-Thad

[cbob]

Epoxy and White Oak. Seems like we are flogging the same dead horse (again and again). I have used different epoxy brands on white oak and red (sometimes) oak over the past 30 years. 1 3/8" x about 3/16' x as many as it takess to get about 1 3/8" again. 2' to 6', sisters and new frames, and dish pieces. Formed and laminated in place on freshly sawn surfaces. Wet out and put on the thickened, or sometimes just wetted out. Delamination (failure?) due to failing to wait out the cure time is not a failure but unacceptable workmanship. Did this once with a brand that cured quickly and the in place lamination was taking place before final setup.
About 40 or so of these (over 30 years). Zero Failure! I wrote extensivly on my erxperiences about this before, (a year or so back) so you might be able to read more, under the subject. Just follow the instructions.
Splitting laminations with a hammer and chisel? Happy Laminating cbob

[TimothyB]

I think a lot of this has more to do with appropriate prep and workmanship than the materials involved. We don't know why the glue lines failed on various old glued joints, except for them 'breaking down', but I have seen old glued joints absolutely perfect in condition, and so it leads me to wonder how much of 'breaking down' has to do with appropriate use.

A mast, for example, is a very harsh use of glue. Saltwater, elements, sun, etc. Even the best glues won't hold up for the long haul with that kind of treatment, so I'm not surprised that lots of people have delaminating mast tales. On the other hand, I've seen totally encapsulated masts that have lasted 20 years without issue, beyond the semi annual varnish, and I believe recoated with epoxy sealant every 5 years or so.

This leads me to wonder how long a mast laminated with Resorcinol and then saturated in epoxy would last.

Breaking down could also result from wood movement over time. Oak does tend to move. If you cycle it often between dry and wet, does that stress the joint enough over time to delam? I've seen the 'drop it in a bucket' test, but that does not test moisture cycling. This would tend to mean that boats kept in the water year round would fare better than those drysailed, or those used in the tropics exclusively (due to the rainy/dry seasons).

Maybe the trouble Oak is the stuff that has the worst grain patterns in addition to the acid problem.. perhaps the better the grain, and its orientation, the better the bond.

[pcford]

Epoxy and White Oak. Seems like we are flogging the same dead horse (again and again). I have used different epoxy brands on white oak and red (sometimes) oak over the past 30 years. 1 3/8" x about 3/16' x as many as it takess to get about 1 3/8" again. 2' to 6', sisters and new frames, and dish pieces. Formed and laminated in place on freshly sawn surfaces. Wet out and put on the thickened, or sometimes just wetted out. Delamination (failure?) due to failing to wait out the cure time is not a failure but unacceptable workmanship. Did this once with a brand that cured quickly and the in place lamination was taking place before final setup.
About 40 or so of these (over 30 years). Zero Failure! I wrote extensivly on my erxperiences about this before, (a year or so back) so you might be able to read more, under the subject. Just follow the instructions.
Splitting laminations with a hammer and chisel? Happy Laminating cbob

So you say there is not a problem. How do you explain consistent problems with users and epoxy formulators producing special epoxies for use with white oak. Why would they produce a product if there is not a problem?

I am not doubting your stated results. Epoxy with _sometimes_ glue white oak successfully. Maybe you've been extemely lucky.

[Lazy Jack]

Why would they produce a product if there is not a problem?

Because people will buy it. Its all about money.


My gunnng dory is going six years old with the rails laminated with white oak and epoxy. Not a highly stressed joint, but so far no problem. The hull is 3/8ths AC ply from the orange big-box store, covered with xynole and epoxy. I've painted it twice since building it (Exo-rust alkyd enamel) The thwarts are white oak glued up with Titebond II. I'm still waiting for disaster to strike....

[pcford]

Why would they produce a product if there is not a problem?

Because people will buy it. Its all about money.


My gunnng dory is going six years old with the rails laminated with white oak and epoxy. Not a highly stressed joint, but so far no problem. The hull is 3/8ths AC ply from the orange big-box store, covered with xynole and epoxy. I've painted it twice since building it (Exo-rust alkyd enamel) The thwarts are white oak glued up with Titebond II. I'm still waiting for disaster to strike....

You can make a boat out of 1/8 th inch doorskins. It's been done many times.

For me, building with materials that _might_ work is not very satisfying.

[Bob Smalser]

...Aero-Lite is almost identical (Phenol-Formaldehyde base) to Resorcinal ....temperature shifts and general movement...it looks just like broken down Hide Glue....

Aero-Lite is a urea-formaldehyde glue, and your residue description is identical to Weldwood, DAP, and the other UF glues, which need good UV and moisture protection to survive outdoors. Resorcinol, in turn, is a man-made resin mixed with formaldehyde to make glue with a distinctive hard purple glue line that looks nothing like UF. Phenol-formaldehyde glues require high heat and pressure that generally limits their use to factories...like plywood and OSB mills....while resorcinol-formaldehyde glues have the same characteristics and can be used at room temperature.

....I'd use Titebond 2 on above the waterline applications..... haven't had a single issue with it in all the years I've used it for exterior applications....Including marine laminations.

...I switched to Titebond II for her berth and cabin, still using the exterior ply. I have had no problems...

...I used Titebond III which claims to be a one part waterproof glue. So far so good. I did nothing about preparing the surface of the wood, just ripped it and glued it around the form. Oh well, only time and the tide will tell if it is truly waterproof......

...I have used titebond 2 succesfully for deckbeams and other "inside" Parts.


The issue with Titebond has nothing to do with whether it glues successfully....it's that you can't repair it. Nothing sticks to it....even itself. That's not true for epoxy, U-F, resorcinol or poly...they are fully repairable using epoxy.

I think a lot of this has more to do with appropriate prep and workmanship than the materials involved.....

Assuming the collective experience of those professionals who've shared their experience with glue failures is less than yours, is probably wrong.

[TimothyB]

Assuming the collective experience of those professionals who've shared their experience with glue failures is less than yours, is probably wrong.

Bob, I am not talking about professionals here. Best bet is that most real pros don't make materials and or prep errors, so of course they would have a much lower rate of failure.

I am just talking about the overall anecdotal weight being higher than you would expect from JUST one cause, so I surmise that the fact that so many people do report failures is because of more than 1 reason, aka acidity plus movement exacerbated by grain orientation and being put to purpose in an environment that constantly cycle moisture and in which the members have not been other wise protected from that.

Such as in an unencapsulated boat frame, pierced by screws, driven along in weather for a few years and having been made from crappy stock to begin with (which is why it was laminated up in the first place).

See what I mean?

[Bob Smalser]

Bob, I am not talking about professionals here.

Yes, we are.

The first warnings we had years ago about WO and epoxy were from boat yards. The unreliability of WO and epoxy is as old as the commercial use of epoxy. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Some have just entered the game later than others. Why fool around with techniques when a can of resorcinol and a heat blanket makes for good sleep?

[TimothyB]

Oh jees. And here I thought you were disagreeing with me :-) durn you and yer double negatives.

I see what you are saying now... sorry for not getting it earlier. Well, then I stand corrected and the case for -not- using it is stronger than I had thought.

In fact, I said almost the exact same thing you did about using Resorcinol in the other thread. :)

[Nicholas Carey]

I've always suspected that oak/epoxy issues had more to do with the fact that oak is ring porous (you can just aboutblow through the end grain). Some grain runout, not enough epoxy -- the stuff just gets slurped into the pores. Compound that with the tendency to overclamp epoxy and you have a recipe for glue-starved joints: epoxy doesn't like a thin glue line. Just my suspicion.

I'll let you guys get back to arguing about the merits of different glues :D

[few3]

I've always suspected that oak/epoxy issues had more to do with the fact that oak is ring porous (you can just aboutblow through the end grain). Some grain runout, not enough epoxy -- the stuff just gets slurped into the pores. Compound that with the tendency to overclamp epoxy and you have a recipe for glue-starved joints: epoxy doesn't like a thin glue line. Just my suspicion.

I'll let you guys get back to arguing about the merits of different glues :D

On the Contrary, though appreciate the opinion, White Oak can be differentiated from Red Oak by the presence of Tyloses in the pores of White Oak. These are excellent at blocking water absorption and adding to the longevity and rot-resistance of WO.

However, these Tyloses are also responsible for WO long dry times and frequent case hardening.

Overclamping is one thing I had done before with expected results, but by going with a "two-step" bond and using less less pressure cured that. I believe, the problem with over-clamping creating a resin-starved joint is manly a result of the would absorbing too much resin from the joint before the epoxy hardens.

[few3]

Yes, we are.

The first warnings we had years ago about WO and epoxy were from boat yards. The unreliability of WO and epoxy is as old as the commercial use of epoxy. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Some have just entered the game later than others. Why fool around with techniques when a can of resorcinol and a heat blanket makes for good sleep?

Bob, I absolutely agree with you on this. I also feel that it shouldn't have to be us ( end-users ) that should try to definitively answer this question.

"When in doubt, throw it out"

[few3]

So far as the dependibility of Aerolite glue is concerned, we once did mast replacement on a sixty foot ketch that was built in England and cruised via the canal to California. Both masts were over fifty percent delaminated and held together with screws by the time the boat arrived at our shop. The remaining seams resisted all efforts to separate the glue lines and we had no choice but to build new sticks for the boat. At that time we used Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue gluing up the new masts. Although I now have an allergy to this glue, it has never failed on any mast I have ever built.

One of my co-workers developed a very distressing allergy to epoxy during the time we were doing work for a major theme park in S.CA.
His distress was that his scrotum swelled up to the size of a soccer ball and he spent a week in the hospital with his legs in parentheses!
Ever after that time he was so allergic to epoxy that even smelling the fumes put him into extreme breathing difficulties.

I have a sensitivity to phenol resin glue due to my early days of working with plywood. The gassing of formaldehyde resin glue in plywood puts me into extreme respiratory distress. So I wonder if it is wise to use plywood in home or building construction where air circulation is restricted.

I hear that polyurathane glue can also cause allergic reactions. But I also hear that, with proper protection, it is safe to use. The main plus factor of this glue is that it is reported to be 100% waterproof and will glue, white oak as well as oily woods permantly!
JG

Damn you Jay!!!, I keep imagining my nether-region is itching. It is a psychosomatic nightmare you have plagued me with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bob Smalser]

I've always suspected that oak/epoxy issues had more to do with the fact that oak is ring porous (you can just about blow through the end grain).....

Nicholas was kidding.

Ring porous must explain why ash, locust, red oak and hickory also don't glue reliably with epoxy. ;) Plus none of them have tyloses clogging the pores, so the glue can seep all the way through those species.

An unreliable but common test to differentiate white oak from red is to split off soda-straw-sized slivers and see if you can blow bubbles through them into a glass of water. The red oaks generally make bubbles because there are no tyloses clogging the pores. The white oaks generally won't blow bubbles, and as already noted, lack of water pathways is one of the reasons the white oaks are more durable than the red oaks.

[donald branscom]

Yes, we are.

The first warnings we had years ago about WO and epoxy were from boat yards. The unreliability of WO and epoxy is as old as the commercial use of epoxy. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Some have just entered the game later than others. Why fool around with techniques when a can of resorcinol and a heat blanket makes for good sleep?

Bob, what would you use in California where Resorcinal is not legal?
Can't get it shipped here.

[Thorne]

Donald -- did you try calling the Home Depot in the Sacto area that was listed on their website as carrying Resorcinal?

There are many holes in the 'eco-net' -- some small outfits will still ship stuff here as long as it isn't listed as explosive or actively dangerous like acid or flammable. Alternately get some handy out-of-state forumite to ship you some via FedEx or UPS...

[Bob Smalser]

Bob, what would you use in California where Resorcinal is not legal?
Can't get it shipped here.

Didn't know that. I guess that's what friends are for.

Want me to mail you a kit? I think I have some with shelf life yet I likely won't use before it goes bad.

Much as I've been using the newer poly glues and adhesives lately, I'd want to test them thoroughly on various WO applications for a couple of years before using them for anything critical in a boat.

[pipefitter]

I was always told that with white oak, that lams should be coarsely roughed cross grain to create a key and more inlets into the pores.I thought it good practice to do that with most woods anyway,except where maybe for brightwork that required invisible gluelines.I don't know about resorcinol but it seems to make sense to do so with epoxy.

[Jay Greer]

One rule of thumb we use is: if we are using epoxy laminated sister frames of white oak, we use copper rivets for fastening.
JG

[few3]

Nicholas was kidding.

Ring porous must explain why ash, locust, red oak and hickory also don't glue reliably with epoxy. ;) Plus none of them have tyloses clogging the pores, so the glue can seep all the way through those species.

An unreliable but common test to differentiate white oak from red is to split off soda-straw-sized slivers and see if you can blow bubbles through them into a glass of water. The red oaks generally make bubbles because there are no tyloses clogging the pores. The white oaks generally won't blow bubbles, and as already noted, lack of water pathways is one of the reasons the white oaks are more durable than the red oaks.

also ring-porous

Elm
Chestnut
Catalpa
Black Locust

Semi-ring porous:
Black Walnut
Butternut

ABS plastics, and Glass ( fibers ) aren't exactly porous but can be bonded with epoxy. Just a thought.

[few3]

Donald -- did you try calling the Home Depot in the Sacto area that was listed on their website as carrying Resorcinal?

There are many holes in the 'eco-net' -- some small outfits will still ship stuff here as long as it isn't listed as explosive or actively dangerous like acid or flammable. Alternately get some handy out-of-state forumite to ship you some via FedEx or UPS...

I heard it wasn't an environmental issue, just that those California kids will dip their smokes into anything to get high.

[Thorne]

Really - are you serious? I didn't find anything on the web about that. It does show mention as an industrial 'pollutant' in various sites, and being found in tobacco smoke --

from http://www.ryandrum.com/thyroidpart1.htm -
Resorcinal, Dihydroxybenzene, has been used therapeutically as an alleged starting molecule for catechols. Industrially, it is used in the production of Rayon and Nylon, and the superb resorcinol/formaldehyde glues, particularly in plywood, chipboard, and sawdust composites for fake wood furniture.
As these products are abraided,scuffed, cut, or broken, tiny amounts or resorcinol polymer dust particles are released into our living spaces and are inhaled, where they rest on mucous membrane surfaces where nano amounts are continually absorbed and may be thyrodisruptive. The EPA hearings were especially opaque seemingly non-conclusive. In part, I suspect because of the huge world-wide human exposure to resorcinol polymer fragments. The effects of resorcinol on human thyroids is still being investigated.
I believe these resorcinol-sourced particles may be a significant factor in the increasing thyroid epidemic, particularly in the countries where the most resorcinol has been used.

Dermatitis in tire manufacturing -
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/rubberhr.html

From http://www.smoke-free.ca/Health/etschemssmokers.htm
*1-aminonaphthalene, 2-aminonaphthalene, 3-aminobiphenyl, 4-aminobiphenyl, benzo[a]pyrene, mercury, nickel, lead, cadmium, chromium, resorcinal, NNN, NNK and NAT are all listed in nanograms. The presence of these chemicals at the amounts found in tobacco smoke remains an important health hazard.

[Tylerdurden]

Yes, we are.

The first warnings we had years ago about WO and epoxy were from boat yards. The unreliability of WO and epoxy is as old as the commercial use of epoxy. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Some have just entered the game later than others. Why fool around with techniques when a can of resorcinol and a heat blanket makes for good sleep?

I am building a Rescue minor which calls for white oak in the build. been toying with going to fir just because this is a winter build and getting 70 during the cure is questionable. Any ideas Bob?

[Bob Smalser]

I am building a Rescue minor which calls for white oak in the build. been toying with going to fir just because this is a winter build and getting 70 during the cure is questionable.

I've had no problems getting 70 degrees localized for 12 hours in 30-degree weather using heat blankets, heat pads and tarps. In 10 degrees I'd add a fiberglass batt or two beneath the tarp, and I'd test my solution before committing myself.

[Bob Smalser]

I was always told that with white oak, that lams should be coarsely roughed cross grain to create a key and more inlets into the pores.

I've played around with WO and epoxy enough to lean toward a conclusion that the problem is chemical, not mechanical. Smooth or rough makes little difference, but whether it's a freshly-machined or weathered surface seems to.

[Tylerdurden]

I've had no problems getting 70 degrees localized for 12 hours in 30-degree weather using heat blankets, heat pads and tarps. In 10 degrees I'd add a fiberglass batt or two beneath the tarp, and I'd test my solution before committing myself.

Well then I will proceed, I have a couple of calrods with a t-stat for under the hull, with blankets on top I guess I should be fine then.
Thanks Bob.

[pipefitter]

I've played around with WO and epoxy enough to lean toward a conclusion that the problem is chemical, not mechanical. Smooth or rough makes little difference, but whether it's a freshly-machined or weathered surface seems to.

From my experiences with WO,I feel that all of the above is suspect. My thought was that in roughing,that every little bit helps. I would not feel confident in using WO where it is dependant on glue even though it has been glued successfully "sometimes".

D-fir would have to be the favorite with glued lams from a structural standpoint and I would feel more confident using this in place of WO just knowing it's predictabilty and added peace of mind in this respect.

I think WO has had issues in crossing over from traditional to modern boat construction practices. I also think too much is weighed on it's rot resistance to make it the correct choice for dry sailed,composite constructions. If I had my choice,I would be more likely to adapt DF in it's place. If the extra weight,density or strength of WO was also considered as necessary components in the design of scantling sizes,I would tend to look to other places in the build to compensate.

There are reasons in modern architecture that they don't use WO for lams and beams,even though it might be financially and locally available. I think alot of these considerations could be lended to modern boat construction as well.

[JimD]

I am building a Rescue minor which calls for white oak in the build.

Older boat plans seem to almost always call for white oak framing and never called for epoxy gluing (obviously because there wasn't any). If I were building from old plans I'd keep in mind that designers were following the customs of the day which in some ways was a long time ago.

Edited to add. It might come down to do you want to make a sort of replica faithful to the methods of the time or do you want to take the plans as a jump off point and use contemporary materials and methods. If the latter then glue with epoxy because it's so good for so many reasons and forget the oak and use another wood.

[Excalibur]

And now for a completely different question: Smith markets "oak and teak epoxy glue" Anyone know anything about it? Is it actually different than other epoxys? Has anyone tried it? I would try calling Smith, but the ad on their website already tells me more than I understand!

[Stiletto]

Excalibur, a complete digression. What is that in your avatar picture? I cant make it out.

[Thorne]

Excalibur -

Go ahead and call Smiths -- they are very good at explaining glues and other stuff. I haven't talked to Steve Smith about the oak & teak epoxy, but have asked them about other products and concepts.

Just ignore the stuff that goes over your head and go for the rest -- I asked about mixing their dyes for the epoxy fairing compound, and Steve drew me a 3D diagram of color space and mentioned Avagadro's number in the second sentence...

;0 )

Bottom line would be to buy a small amount and test. But if you've got the temps and clamps to use the more trad glues, why not take that route?

[Excalibur]

Well, the first thing I have to do is sister a frame made of white oak... good thing all are in agreement on how to do that! :)
On the plus side (big plus), I've discovered that all of the boats at the Calvert Marine Museum near me are maintained by the Patuxent Small Craft Guild, and they offer free wooden boat building courses! The Museum currently has 7 old wood boats, ranging from a Pocquoson 3 log canoe (sloop rigged), to the William B Tennison, which has been cruising the Bay since 1899. My picture, by the way, is me in a very shiny helmet (bascinet) with a grill. I'm holding a wooden tournement sword over my head. The black thing in the lower left corner is my leather pauldron riding up. I just changed it. Is the new one any clearer?

[Stiletto]

Yes indeed:D