Wood Stain to even mahogany [Archive]

mcdenny

12-10-2006, 09:28 PM

My favorite is Interlux Chris Craft red. It comes out of the can as paste so you will need the brushing thinner as well.

If there is other bright mahogany on your boat you will want to try to match that.

Sometimes stain can amplify the differences between light and dark areas, depending on how evenly the wood absorbs it.

If you like the look of the wood unstained you would save yourself some work by leaving it unstained. I don't buy the 'light spots get lighter in the sun' theory. Good marine varnish has plenty of UV protection.

Robmill0605

12-10-2006, 09:31 PM

I'd be wary about applying a satin. If the mahogany looks even then let the natural differences in the wood show. I'm building a mahogany runabout and so will be using a filler stain because that's how these boats are done.
Try wetting down the mahogany with water and see how it will look varnished. If you do have differences in the wood then you might try bleaching to even it out first.
If that fails then I'd use a filler stain. Interlux makes a good one. The reason I'm advocating not using it is that it can look too monochromatic and look painted. If you do use the filler stain seal, it with CPES before you varnish it. If you introduce varnish without it, it could make the stain look muddy as the oil in the varnish will re-liquify the stain and be blotchy.

My two cents is , bleach it, and varnish it natural.

capt jake

12-10-2006, 09:37 PM

In my experience, Mahogany darkens with age and exposure. Even under many coats of varnish, it will darken. I have some spots I am concerned about on my restoration, but chose to skip the stain and epoxy seal/varnish it. I haev had very good luck with that.

pcford

12-10-2006, 09:38 PM

In my humble opinion, mahogany should always be stained. Looks pale and washed out otherwise.

Remember, perhaps the most important purpose of stain is to accentuate the grain.

The only "natural" wood is in a forest.

Bob Smalser

12-10-2006, 10:20 PM

I don't stain H. Mahog unless I have a streak of sapwood to hide, and then I use a pigmented oil stain because they are easier to blend and hold up well in UV light. Some aniline dyes, while prettier initially, do not.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7483424/97909701.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7711190/139929543.jpg

But I do wetsand in warm linseed-turps-drier with a healthy pine tar component beneath the spar topcoats. It evens the wood color, fills the grain, and has a long-lasting beauty of it's own beneath a good, UV-resistant varnish.

Peter Malcolm Jardine

12-10-2006, 10:28 PM

I use Interlux mahogany stain, since I have a CC. It's amazing to see how it bleaches out in the sun even under 8 coats of varnish after just a few seasons. I stain based on the individual piece of wood. Phillipine mahogany looks washed out without stain as PC Ford stated. Honduras has better color.

pcford

12-10-2006, 11:01 PM

There's a lot of misunderstanding about staining. Some abjure staining because it sounds like something that happens to your tie at an Italian restaurant. Staining accents the difference between winter and summer wood. Off the top of my head, the only common marine wood which is not normally stained is teak.

Jay Greer

12-10-2006, 11:37 PM

Pigmented filler stain applied over one coat of ZSpar S-94 clear acrylic sealer or CEPS will give the most lasting, non fading, color to the wood. Mahogony can be stained with a 50/50 mixture of Z Spar 1084 Brown Mahogony stain and Red Mohogany Filler Stain. The pigments are non fading and the mix will give the color of the old Chris Craft stain. Neither of the individual stains, mentioned above, will give the deep natural color that matches fresh milled hondurous mahogany unless mixed together in equal parts. While analine dyes will give more clarity of color, unless you are using a high UV protection varnish, fading will occur. Z-spar has been bought out by Pettit so different color codes may now be in use.
JG

JimConlin

12-10-2006, 11:47 PM

What Jay said.
The corresponding Pettit sealer is #2018

pcford

12-10-2006, 11:57 PM

What Jay said.
The corresponding Pettit sealer is #2018
Isn't 2018 the slower drying sealer?

#94 was the skunky acrylic stuff...? There was 94 and 120

Bob Smalser

12-11-2006, 12:01 AM

What's the name of the gal who had the brightwork business in Seattle and took a lot of heat from the CPES crowd after writing an article on traditional varnishing for WBM?

Found it: Rebecca Wittman....Issues #81, 82, 83, 177.

Worth a look-see. She had some interesting techniques.

/Epoxy sealer:/technique for sealing wood/Rebecca Wittman, 177:55

/Finishes:/removal technique/Rebecca Wittman, 81:88

/Heat gun:/technique for using/Rebecca Wittman, 81:88

/Interior brightwork:/application technique/Rebecca Wittman, 83:66

/Oil-type finish:/removal technique/Rebecca Wittman, 81:88

/Refinishing:/brightwork/Rebecca Wittman, 81:88

/Sanding:/technique for wet-sanded oil sealer/Rebecca Wittman, 177:55

/Sandpaper:/commentary by Rebecca Wittman, 82:88

/Scraper:/technique for using/Rebecca Wittman, 81:88

/Sealers:/foundation for varnish/types discussed/Rebecca Wittman, 177:55

/Teak refinishing:/comments/Rebecca Wittman, 81:88

/TE-KA Teak Wood Cleaner:/comments on using/Rebecca Wittman, 81:88

/Varnishing:/removal technique/Rebecca Wittman, 81:88

/Varnishing:/sealing technique/Rebecca Wittman, 177:55

/Varnishing:/technique/Rebecca Wittman, 82:88, 83:66

/Wet-sanding:/technique for sealing wood/Rebecca Wittman, 177:55

/Wittman, Rebecca, author:/"Remembering Doc Freeman's...and Local Chandleries all Over," 176:34

/Wittman, Rebecca, author:/"The Art of Brightwork, Part I," 81:88

/Wittman, Rebecca, author:/"The Art of Brightwork, Part II," 82:88

/Wittman, Rebecca, author:/"The Art of Brightwork, Part III," 83:66

/Wittman, Rebecca, author:/"What Seals the Brightwork Deal?" 177:55

pcford

12-11-2006, 12:30 AM

Bob Smalser

12-11-2006, 12:46 AM

...Kim Lazare is/was my guru. A wizard. Unfortunately does not do refinishing anymore...

No results for Kim on the index search. And how much was lost all-around because the work wasn't documented?

The ones who write it down will be the ones remembered, for better or worse. Wittman also shows around 20 grand of income from the magazine articles alone.

For many, taking a camera to work can be a greater contribution than the work itself. Not being a talented writer isn't important. That's why editors are english or journalism majors, not boatbuilders or wood pros.

pcford

12-11-2006, 12:51 AM

No results for Kim on the index search. And how much was lost all-around because the work wasn't documented?

The ones who write it down will be the ones remembered, for better or worse. Wittman also shows around 20 grand of income from the magazine articles alone.

For many, taking a camera to work can be a greater contribution than the work itself. Not being a talented writer isn't important. That's why editors are english or journalism majors, not boatbuilders or wood pros.
I suppose. Amateurs are the ones that lose out. Those in the trade can find the information.

I did post a video of Kim doing a roll and tip paint job. I think it's still on the streaming server.

Lew Barrett

12-11-2006, 01:38 AM

Chris Crafts, for example, were all stained using filler stains, so following that approach is appropriate for them but not necesarily for all mahogany boats, and you will almost never see stain on teak. Other builders and designers follow their own leads. Most of the Hackers I see (and remember, he was a designer, not a builder) are unstained.
There's no one right approach to this decision. If a clear wood finish with maximum grain character is desired, a filler stain will not provide the look one seeks. If, on the other hand, an even color is desired, you will want to stain. Personally, I like the look of unstained wood if it is of good quality because I think you get more highlights and tonal interest, but that's just one man's opinion. It's very easy to go overboard with filler stain and get a monotone that to my eye is unattractive, but judicously applied a proper stain job can look attractive. The sun will bleach the color of any wood in time but if you keep up a good varnish program the UV protection will delay the change in color for a long time.
If you are just starting out in finishing and refinishing, Rebecca's books are a good place to start if only to provide a base line and a notion of method. I took her courses many years ago when she was teaching them in Seattle but no longer follow many of her leads, having developed my own apparoach, much of it appropriated from others.
Kim Lazare worked with Christine Green (Native Brightworks, my personal pick as Diva of the Lake, and apparantly PC too) and a bunch of others around here and was well known as a perfectionist finisher but I never worked with him.
My advice would be to go it without the stain but I am accepting of variations in color and recognize that the process of keeping a fine finish on a boat is just that; a process. Jay's comments about how long the finish will last over stain is probably worth considering as a benefit to that approach, but it isn't my prefered method for a new boat (I would stain a Chris though), and my boat's teak.

pcford

12-11-2006, 01:48 AM

Kim Lazare worked with Christine Green (Native Brightworks, my personal pick as Diva of the Lake, and apparantly PC too) and a bunch of others around here and was well known as a perfectionist finisher but I never worked with him.

Well yes perfectionist I suppose. But the thing that impresses me is his intimate (I stress intimate) knowledge of the behavior of wood, paint and varnish.

Kim will go on about what seems to be an extremely arcane point....I will want to just get on with things....some time later I will understand what he was talking about. And how important the point was.

Lew Barrett

12-11-2006, 01:55 AM

pcford

12-11-2006, 02:10 AM

Perfectionist in the sense that his paint jobs (I was particularly drawn to those, as I find varnish less of a challange by and large) were so perfect. Not "perfectionist" in the sense of .....anal.....

Re: Rebecca. I should mention there are some of her tips I still use, especially her cleaning tricks: being really careful in the corners and such. But I'll never again shoot (I should say "hope for") for the kind of perfect results I one time thought was the goal and that I tried to obtain myself. Life's too short, and the top coat always seems one coat away.
Yes, varnish gets the oooohs and aaaahs, but paint is more difficult. You see only the surface with paint; the eye can be fooled by the grain of the wood.

In regards to your efforts, Lew....let it be known that Rita is a darn good looking lady.

Jay Greer

12-11-2006, 10:42 AM

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid220/pdd77d4f3cd4da8c187a8a9e473d851d0/ebaba198.jpg

Ken mentioned that filler stain will kill some of the clarity of the grain.
This is true. Unless filler stain is applied over clear acrylic sealer it will muddy the wood grain. Even so, no stain will give complete eveness of color variations in the wood.
On my H28 "Bright Star" I chose to use analine dye rather than filler stain. This was to insure the greatest brilliance to the grain.
JG

Lew Barrett

12-11-2006, 11:39 AM

Ken mentioned that filler stain will kill some of the clarity of the grain.
This is true. Unless filler stain is applied over clear acrylic sealer it will muddy the wood grain. Even so, no stain will give complete eveness of color variations in the wood.
On my H28 "Bright Star" I chose to use analine dye rather than filler stain. This was to insure the greatest brilliance to the grain.
JG

Actually Jay, I think I implied that. My preference is for analine dyes/stains and not filler stains where grain variations are to be maintained, but such treatment would be inappropriate on say a Chris Craft (or Shain) to cite two examples; at least if authenticity is the point. On the crusing boats I am involved with, you don't always get points for sticking to the original staining programs, as tastes have changed. I see nicely restored Chris cruiser that have reverted to other approaches than filler stain. Everybody knows it's not "original" but it looks good and satisfies the owner, and that counts a lot. The biggest advantage for filler stains is that they even the wood and fill the grain; I'm sure it allowed the production boat builders of the era to deliver a good looking finish with fewer top coats.
One downside to dyes and stains of any type is that if the varnish does break through it can be more difficult to make local repairs that match the existing finish. Such fixes, unless done with great care can really look blotchy, thus defeating the original purpose to which one put the stain in the first place. There's no cheating time. If one wants a good looking finish on a varnished boat, one will develop and maintain a program, stain or no stain.
That's one fine looking boat Jay!

Jay Greer

12-11-2006, 01:53 PM

Sorry Lew!
It twarn't intenshunell.
I men't yew.
Jay
PS Thanks for the atta boy! We apply stain both with a spotting gun and air brush.

Jay Greer

12-11-2006, 05:56 PM

I wouldn't try staining the wood... As it would darken it time... Even after applying a clear finish, it'll darken..
I use a damp rag to wet the wood to see how dark its gonna get.. It brings out the natural beauty of that wood.. Some people would add japan color to clear finish and hope for the best match..

Sorry, but I beg to differ. There is only one mahogony that will darken with age and UV exposure! That wood is Cuban Mahogony, "Santo Domingan ", Swietinia mahogani. All others will eventualy bleach and loose their color unless dyed or stained and protected by a UV filtering finish. The old finisher's trick that was used by Chippendale and Nutting was to treat the wood with a solution of distilled water and potassium dichromate. This will further accent the grain of the wood and give it an almost 3D look.
JG

Rowdy CY6

12-12-2006, 09:58 AM

Thanks for the great information. I think I am going to stain as I have two types of wood in my cabintop. Mahogany and a lighter wood locust. With the stain I can even the two out.

Concordia...41

12-12-2006, 07:35 PM

A wise man (or woman) once pointed out that if you want your wood to be monochrome, get a can of paint. :D ;)

Seriously, the rich yellow locust and the deep maroon mahogany provide contrast. Yes, the mahogany will bleach if you allow the finish to go, but it isn't going to just spontaneous blotch. Properly refinished (protected with canvas covers as in the case of your skylights) and maintained, you'll be fine. I also think you'll be happier as you watch the character of the wood develop vs. trying to make everything even.

If you've got a repair or a damaged area to blend in, that's another story and there are several threads discussing how to match the surrounding wood and blend in a specific area.

That'll be .02 please.

Jay Greer

12-12-2006, 07:52 PM

To quote L. Francis Herreshoff:
"Most people, particularily the ladies, believe that there are only two kinds of wood in the world; one that is stained red and called mahogony and one that is not stained red and not called mahogony."
JG

Concordia...41

12-12-2006, 07:55 PM

I guess I wouldn't have made it in L. Francis' world ;)

ABACO sets an impossibly high maintenance standard, but these photos show the pleasant contrast between the locust and mahogany:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid220/pc04f711344abcd3b45015c64f971e72d/eba5f377.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid220/p2421fdf66228d218e6e6b809c2a24a97/eba5f248.jpg

And here is well-kept, unstained wood, with the grain visible even in the picture:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid220/p232e8c67016360680fe25891a1d581b4/eba5f2df.jpg

A well-cared for hatch (CAPTIVA):

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid220/p81cb5ea71f9064525ccb5a531c5298db/eba5e947.jpg

A not-so-well-cared for hatch (SARAH - when we bought her after years of neglect in the Florida sun :():

http://www.sailingwithsarah.com/images/projectpics/proj1c.jpg http://www.sailingwithsarah.com/images/projectpics/proj1e.jpg

I gotta be up to at least .04 now... ;)

Peter Malcolm Jardine

12-12-2006, 10:45 PM

I battle with stain, varnish, CPES, Linseed and Turps, etc etc etc... I always shoot for a great finish, but in large areas it's hard to get that showboat finish... and especially on a bigger boat that is outside in the weather. I'll keep trying. Smaller pieces always have that "in the shop" perfection... I'd love to get that on everything but alas...

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid201/p020214879df82e5f587a0bfcde80a63c/f03a1eed.jpg

Lew Barrett

12-12-2006, 11:08 PM

I always thoiught your work looks great from here Peter, but then....I'm in Seattle!:D It's impossible to nail the finishes every time, every coat. Impossible! Too much against it on a big boat.
That hatch of yours is over the top!

sdowney717

12-13-2006, 08:36 AM

How well do the Minwax oil stains hold the color when exposed to weather and sunlight? They have a new deep red called Sedona Red.
http://www.minwax.com/products/woodstain/woodfinish-color.cfm

Try Nyalic 100% UV proof as a top coat on the varnish.
nylonic, crystal clear, polymer resin coating. NEVER cracks crazes yellows peels, new coats melt into old. No sanding needed when putting on new coats. Lasts for years.
I think if you stop the UV damage the appearance will never change.
http://www.nyalic.co.nz/

http://www.nyalic.com/
etc......

Blackfin

05-16-2007, 07:16 PM

Jay Greer

05-16-2007, 07:59 PM

I pour a can of each into a bucket, stir and pour back into the origional cans. I thin only the amount I will use at one time. I use a cheapo brush to apply the mix and wait till it turns hazy. Then I wipe it off, cross the grain, with cheese cloth or burlap.
Jay

Mrleft8

05-16-2007, 11:04 PM

One stains cheap #3 Pine, not Mahogany.

pcford

05-17-2007, 12:28 AM

One stains cheap #3 Pine, not Mahogany.

One stains mahogany. It is not to change its color or make it look like something else. The reason is to accentuate the grain. Mahogany, especially Philipine, looks mighty flat and washed out if not stained. Even the good stuff that Chris used.

Staining is often done to fine woods in traditional woodworking. Don't understand the reluctance. A misunderstanding, I suppose.

David G

05-17-2007, 12:32 AM

Sorry, but I beg to differ. There is only one mahogony that will darken with age and UV exposure! That wood is Cuban Mahogony, "Santo Domingan ", Swietinia mahogani. All others will eventualy bleach and loose their color unless dyed or stained and protected by a UV filtering finish. -- Jay Greer

Jay - I'm confused (not unusual). I do not have anywhere near the barest hint of the depth & breadth of experience of all things nautical that you have. What little I do know generally coincides with your information and opinions. The above, however, does not match my (limited) experience. I've been in the architectural millwork biz for 30+ years. Mostly indoor work, but the occasional outdoor project. Even a bit of maritime work. Had contracts to restore/maintain the brightwork for two different boats. Didn't/don't bill myself as a "professional brightwork" guy. Over the years, did three different exterior projects that involved a varnished finish on honduras mahogany. My current boat - a 16' plywood sailing dinghy - has a bit of manogany brightwork. Always a good quality spar varnish. Never any stain. I could swear that - in each case - the mahogany darkened slightly, but never any hint of bleaching out.

Am I missing somethng? Are you actually talking about Hondo, not Cuban? Am I totally crazy? (all you Western Oregon Messabout Society members... put a cork in it, you already know the answer to the latter<G>)

Jay Greer

05-17-2007, 12:35 AM

pcford

05-17-2007, 12:19 PM

Philipine Mahogany is actualy not a mahogony but a variety of cedar.
The name was coined back in the thirties to sell the wood.

And Philipine "mahogany" is perhaps the most common mahogany used in yacht building. Practically all Chris-Crafts were built with it. Not just large run factory boats were built with it: The S&S/Nivens NY32s were built with it.

The only reason for staining of true mahogony is to enhance or to even out the grain as well as protect it from UV bleaching.
Jay

Fairly important reasons. Though I am not so sure that Hondo does not darken with age.

ron ll

05-17-2007, 01:01 PM

What is the type of mahogany that one most likely gets in Seattle when just walking into Limback Lumber and asking for "mahogany" 1 x 4's?

pcford

05-17-2007, 01:52 PM

What is the type of mahogany that one most likely gets in Seattle when just walking into Limback Lumber and asking for "mahogany" 1 x 4's?

Probably Philipine. However, the quest for good Philipine is hopeless. Used to use Hondo, but stopped after I got a some that was a lurid orange sherbert color. Now I get African. Don't know if Limbacks would have African. Try Crosscut or Compton's or Edensaw.

Hondo is a wonderful wood. Frankly, I have not used it in so long I am not sure of the current quality of the stuff.

Robmill0605

05-17-2007, 02:09 PM

Probably Philipine. However, the quest for good Philipine is hopeless. Used to use Hondo, but stopped after I got a some that was a lurid orange sherbert color. Now I get African. Don't know if Limbacks would have African. Try Crosscut or Compton's or Edensaw.

Hondo is a wonderful wood. Frankly, I have not used it in so long I am not sure of the current quality of the stuff.

The wood I'm using for my Hacker project is genuine Honduras Mahogany that I bought from Condon Lumber over 10 years ago. Back then it still pricy and I'd shudder what it would be now.I've had it stickered properly and I finally finished the planking of my runabout.
There seems to be some confusion about staining mahogany. I talked to the people at Hackercraft and they use a Pettit # 43 Dark Mahogany filler stain.
Since I'm in Florida and I prefer the stained look of this type of boat I'm about a week away from staining her. I plan to use CPES over the stain to seal and then start varnishing.
Thoughts?

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g148/robmill54/boatplanking7.jpg

David McCollum

05-17-2007, 02:41 PM

pcford

05-17-2007, 02:53 PM

The wood I'm using for my Hacker project is genuine Honduras Mahogany that I bought from Condon Lumber over 10 years ago. Back then it still pricy and I'd shudder what it would be now.I've had it stickered properly and I finally finished the planking of my runabout.
There seems to be some confusion about staining mahogany. I talked to the people at Hackercraft and they use a Pettit # 43 Dark Mahogany filler stain.
Since I'm in Florida and I prefer the stained look of this type of boat I'm about a week away from staining her. I plan to use CPES over the stain to seal and then start varnishing.
Thoughts?

Looks like a nice job. Congratulations!

I am not a CPES true believer. I prefer to follow the instructions on the can. However, I know that epoxy does not tolerate oil stain. Not sure if CPES does.

I think I have heard the magical CPES used as a sealer over the stain?? If that is the reason, you can use rattle cans of spray varnish to do the same thing. (Man O' War is available.) The spray varnish "fixes" the stain and one forgoes the risk of dissolving the stain with the abrading of a brush coat of solvent-rich primer coat of varnish.

And don't get freaked about the staining...it's pretty straightforward. Buy three times as many rags as you think you will need.

Dannenburg covers it nicely...though he is a CPES advocate. Or better said, Restore-It..its true name...made for rebuilding house porches. People don't use the real name. Perhaps because it would compromise its "magick."

Robmill0605

05-17-2007, 02:54 PM

Wouldn't CPES prevent you from ever using a chemical stripper again? CPES is not soluble in paint stripper, to my knowledge. Therefore, you will never be able to strip it down to clean bare wood again.

I'm not sure, I've never used it before. I'm following Dan Danenberg's technique from his book. He recommends CPES as a sealer, but wouldn't you have the same problem with Pettit 2018 sealer?

Robmill0605

05-17-2007, 02:57 PM

pcford
THANKS!!

After a hundred hours of long boarding this hull by HAND, I don't want to make a mistake. I'm a little freaked out about staining it as I don't it to be blotchy.
Technique tips?

pcford

05-17-2007, 03:12 PM

pcford
THANKS!!

After a hundred hours of long boarding this hull by HAND, I don't want to make a mistake. I'm a little freaked out about staining it as I don't it to be blotchy.
Technique tips?

A friend of mine calls long boarding "the misery whip." About as hard work as it gets in speedboat work.
When in doubt follow the instructions on the can.

There is not a lot to say. Like I said, buy plenty of rags...maybe a couple boxes of all cotton rags.

Worst thing you can do is let the stain set up on the hull. Work clockwise if right-handed. Don't stop tell you get to an end. Wipe off with circular motion. Finish with fore and aft very lightly. If you get residue on the surface after it dries, wipe off with dressmaker's netting. Let dry three days or so. Blow on spray can varnish. Varnish with Epifanes. Staining seems to even out after varnish. Roll and tip varnish. Very roughly 12 coats if you don't use a foam brush. More if you do. Just keep going 'til satisfied. Finally sand and buff varnish.

Skip the CPES, save money and brain cells.

Robmill0605

05-17-2007, 04:45 PM

pcford

Thank you for all your advice. Sounds like the plan. I'll post pics as soon as i recover from the " misery whip".

But, she's as fair as a baby's @$$ .....

few3

05-17-2007, 09:51 PM

Be sure to take good close-up pictures of the "before painted with stain" pictures. From where I am sitting, that looks like South American/Brazilian/Costa Rican/Nicaraguan/British Honduran/Central American/True/Peruvian ( where the majority of bigleaf comes from now ) Mahogany ( Swietenia Macrophylla ).

Mahogany ( Swietenia Macrophylla ) is a rich and yummy wood. It is an absolute joy to work with, and as it ages ( oxidizes ), it developes an even richer appearance ( Patina ). Some stain this handsome wood to make it all look the same color ( That's why man invented paint ), and to try to duplicate the color and richness found in old Mahogany furnitures etc.

They also used Red Luan, Dark Red Meranti, Dark Red Seraya, Tangile.

These woods are all called "Phillipine magohany " . Not a spelling error, I just refuse to bastardize Mahoganies (those woods coming from the Meliaceae family). Phillipine "Magohany" is the name given to wood coming from the Sub-Species "Shorea" coming from the Dipterocarpaceae Family. These woods have a tendency to turn into a faded urine color as they age. For this reason, Chris-Craft and others would stain them to Fake a Mahogany color warmth and appearance. If that is what is on your boat, go nuts, It can only help.

If it is Mahogany, and you want that "patina" color, give it some time. In fact, freshly sanded mahogany with darken some within days of being exposed to the elements. You don't have to foul it up with thinned paint ( That is all that stain is, Dye on the other hand....). You've put a lot of work into your boat, and hundreds of hours to make it "fair". So why not be fair to the wood and let it do some work for the years to come, gradually aging it's color?.

Sorry about running on, but stains/dye/and chemicals are used to try and duplicate the look of Mahogany (Swietenia Macrophylla), why try to duplicate the wood you are actually using when all you have to do is let it age?

FYI: 200,000 Board Feet of Mahogany is sitting in the ports of Peru with a destiny of firewood due to logging restrictions and CITES. Mahogany is only going to get harder to acquire. The far east is buying up every available amount of of it, And with all of it getting stained and bastardized, the next generation won't even know what aged Mahogany looks like.

few3

05-17-2007, 10:35 PM

Philipine Mahogany is actualy not a mahogony but a variety of cedar.
The name was coined back in the thirties to sell the wood. The only reason for staining of true mahogony is to enhance or to even out the grain as well as protect it from UV bleaching.
Jay

This Door is one of many doors in the 100 year old library salvaged from the Edwin Ginn estate of Winchester, MA. ( Philanthropist and founder of The World Peace Foundation http://www.worldpeacefoundation.org/). This house was built to accomodate the entire library, and certain areas are exposed to sunlight the majority of the day. Mind you, the wood is oiled every few years.

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/7119/gwhd5.jpg

They look even prettier up close!!

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/158/gw2bc9.jpg

See, Beauty with age.

pcford

05-17-2007, 11:10 PM

Sorry about running on, but stains/dye/and chemicals are used to try and duplicate the look of Mahogany (Swietenia Macrophylla), why try to duplicate the wood you are actually using when all you have to do is let it age?

Stain is not always used to make an inferior wood look like a better one. As I said above, stain accentuates the grain of the wood; it does that on hondo as well.

Stain is subject to such misunderstanding. Ain't no big deal.

Jay Greer

05-17-2007, 11:31 PM

Again, I must comment, that we are dealing with wood that is exposed to the harshest of conditions, that being the marine environment. Although many of you have refered to examples of fine wood work that is of a protected nature; some of which where, most likely color enhanced by mordants, I still must concur that mahogony that is exposed to a marine environment, if not protected by UV filtering finishes or colored a UV resistant stain will bleach out to a straw color! If you prefrer that color then teak is a logical supstitute for mahogony.
Jay

few3

05-18-2007, 01:11 AM

To some extent I agree with likely fading. Although it really is just a shallow layer of UV damaged wood. Boat interiors, if maintained can survive for quite some time before objectionable fading hits. Repeated oiling can also prevent this, although labor intensive on exteriors.

pcford

05-18-2007, 01:17 AM

few3

05-18-2007, 01:18 AM

Stain is not always used to make an inferior wood look like a better one. As I said above, stain accentuates the grain of the wood; it does that on hondo as well.

Stain is subject to such misunderstanding. Ain't no big deal.

I agree that stain can really help a piece "pop", Mottled Mahogany is one figure that is beautified by artfull dyeing. I just think staining in many cases is something that should be considered down the road, after the initial fading has occured.

I've got an opinioon, we all have them. Either way, nice boat, congrats!

few3

05-18-2007, 01:19 AM

Why would one oil hondo! Seems plum wacky to me.

How do you figure?

few3

05-18-2007, 01:25 AM

Oils ( Tung, Linseed ) fill all the pores with these juicy crystals of joy that reflect light and oxidize and amber. One of the better things about them is their ability to be wiped on in small amounts, and removed with minimal pressure ( leaving a minimal amount of oil in the wood fiber ) unlike wax that build up and collect shmeg.

pcford

05-18-2007, 01:52 AM

Either way, nice boat, congrats!

Not my boat. I just work on them every day.

Bob Smalser

05-18-2007, 08:21 AM

Philippine Mahogany is actually not a mahogany but a variety of cedar.
The name was coined back in the thirties to sell the wood.

"Philippine Mahogany" is one of the many species of genus Shorea like fabled Tanguile, or one of the Luans or Merantis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shorea

These are tropical diptocarps, not temperate cedars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipterocarpaceae

African Khaya however, in spite of often being hard as flint and difficult to work, is a true mahogany, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaya, and that may be the aberration you are thinking of.

Robmill0605

05-18-2007, 11:24 AM

OK now I'm confused, to stain or not to stain?

Anyone know if the original Hackers were stained at all?
The planking I have is vertical grain bookmatched mahogany which has now aged10 years just from my shop, before I used it. When I sand it, it's almost pink in color and it does get darker after a few days. I don't have a closeup of the wood but this gives you an idea of the quality of this planking.
So, before I stain this boat, I'd like a little survey from the board.
Stain it?
or not?http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g148/robmill54/boatplanking11.jpg

Robmill0605

05-18-2007, 11:26 AM

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g148/robmill54/boatplanking8.jpg

Jay Greer

05-18-2007, 11:42 AM

Since it is usless to offer logic to one who's head is already made up, I would suggest you forget about the mixed and personaly defended opinions us tongue waggers and use your own good common sense. However, I will humbly state that I also am, by trade, a conservator of fine wooden art objects. But then, like L. Francis once commented during a heated discussion, "I don't know anything about boats!"
Jay

Todd Bradshaw

05-18-2007, 11:52 AM

Before doing anything to the boat, I'd suggest making a few decent-sized test panels to check the compatability of the wood/stain/sealer/finish you plan to use, the application techniques and to see what color you like. I'm sure the natural urge is to get cracking and show some progress, but the next step is likely pretty difficult and quite time consuming to un-do if it turns out that you don't like the results. I stained the mahogany topsides on my Star when I rebuilt it because I wanted that redish, "old runabout" sort of color and to even it out a bit. Never regretted it. Folks are likely sick of this photo, but it's about the only one I have of the boat where you can see the wood.
http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20pix/starboat.jpg

pcford

05-18-2007, 12:00 PM

OK now I'm confused, to stain or not to stain?

Stain it.

I won't offer my opinions as pure "logic" and I can't be as vainglorious as to compare myself to a Herreshoff. On the other hand, people have been paying me to do this stuff on runabouts for nearly thirty years. I probably know a thing or two.

Jay Greer

05-18-2007, 12:18 PM

Stain it.

I won't offer my opinions as pure "logic" and I can't be as vainglorious as to compare myself to a Herreshoff. On the other hand, people have been paying me to do this stuff on runabouts for nearly thirty years. I probably know a thing or two.

Here is a man who knows what he is talking about! For gawd sake, stain it! No, I am not so vain as to even compare my self to LFH.
But I do think I have learned a thing or two over the years I have been in the trade.
When "Quiet Tune" was rebuilt, her Honduras work was truly beautiful! The owner insisted on applying clear LP to the wood, in spite of suggestions that he stain and varnish rather than using the mentioned approach. The result was that the wood eventually turned an ashen shade of light grey under the finish. The clear LP was bullet proof! The only thing that would remove it was dry scaping. Hardware such as winch pads had been bedded in 5200. The Barient bases were, literaly, bent during the efforts to remove them. It was a great lesson learned, the hard way! Yet I still find that some people still want to use that approach.

pcford

05-18-2007, 01:11 PM

The clear LP was bullet proof!

Unfortunately, I have seen LPU let go in great sheets. Some people used it about 15 years ago around here. It is not a Good Thing for wooden boats. But yet you have to talk people out of it. "It's the modern thing!"

Likewise, some people coat their boat with epoxy....what do they do regarding finish (stain..color) when the inevitable happens and repair is required?

Jay Greer

05-18-2007, 02:36 PM

Unfortunately, I have seen LPU let go in great sheets. Some people used it about 15 years ago around here. It is not a Good Thing for wooden boats. But yet you have to talk people out of it. "It's the modern thing!"

Likewise, some people coat their boat with epoxy....what do they do regarding finish (stain..color) when the inevitable happens and repair is required?

Rant, rave, curse and weep! Followed by a lot of wish I had's and shoulda's!
Jay
PS I'm not trying to pour cold water on others opinions here. Just a bit weary of seeing others create more problems than they need. Hey this is supposed to be fun, not work!

few3

05-18-2007, 06:51 PM

I am going to backtrack here,

Staining that boat could conceal the butt edges of the planks, as long as they don't absorb more stain than the planks. Your choice.

Years of experience can be good, but what is "known" and " the way I have always done it" can be bad. An example I use, is the Contractors who still use fiberglass insulation in basements.

Peter Malcolm Jardine

05-18-2007, 07:54 PM

Just to clarify, CC used mostly Tanguille, which is not cut or exported anymore. It is a fine wood for boats, but lacking in color somewhat... depends on the piece. I stain everything, using CPES over the stain, then varnish.

David G

05-18-2007, 11:33 PM

This is making me crazy. I'm still trying to reconcile my experience with Jay's comment that "mahogany" will fade to straw-colored if left unstained, and the only type that won't is Cuban.

So, I'm gonna start with more precise terminology. Few3 did a good job in post #49, and Mr. Smalzer in #59. I'll attempt to compile and clarify by listing: common name/botanical name/my shorthand name - then rephrase my question using the shorthand names.

Cuban Mahogany - Swietenia mahogani - Cuban

Honduran Mahogany - Swietenia macrophylla - Hondo

African Mahogany - Khaya nyasica, K.ivorensis, K.anthotheca - Khaya

Phillipine Mahogany - Shorea (various) - Phillo

My experience:

Cuban - I've only seen two pieces, one with finish. A lovely old antique. Clearly had not been stained or dyed. Had developed a lovely, rich dark patina

Hondo - My experience was described earlier. It darkens when exposed to ultraviolet light (UV)

Khaya - Not enough experience yet to know if it darkens, or what

Phillo - Here's the joker in the deck. I hereby propose keelhauling the Marketing Genius that decided to lump all these various, very different species together under one (very misleading) appelation. I've used Meranti (dark red) that seemed to darken slightly after UV exposure. I've used other (lighter) Phillo's - exact species unknown - that either bleached out or did nothing.

My query:

Jay, and all - is it your experience that Hondo bleaches under extreme UV exposure? Or... are you possibly talking about Phillo, or maybe Khaya?

BTW - in answer to the original post - now that I've seen the gorgeous wood in your hull, I absolutely would not stain it. However, as the above discussion illustrates, we're into the realm of aesthetics. I think the options have been teased out. First - beautiful wood such as yours will look lovely with the finishing schedule outlined by Mr. Smalzer (see his fotos). Second - a pigment stain (such as the CC finish schedule) both pops the grain a bit, and muddies it. It also contributes a bit of UV protection for the underlying wood. Third - analine dye pops the grain even more without the opacity of pigment stains. Subject to fading. Fourth - oils alone are (IMHO) not sufficient for your application, and shouldn't be included in the discussion.

Another BTW - Jay, I assume you used analine dye in a water vehicle, as opposed to alcohol, to minimize the potential fading issues. Is that correct?

Sorry for the long-winded post, but I would really like to get this straight for my own future use and sanity. I welcome any comments or clarifications.

Todd Bradshaw

05-19-2007, 12:03 AM

I don't believe the vehicle for analine dye is the deciding factor in whether or not it fades. I used alcohol/analine stain on my Star and kept it outside year-round under a Sunbrella cover. When I removed and changed the registration numbers after five years there was no shadow left from the originals, even though the varnish was still the original and hadn't been recoated. I don't know though, how many of the analine products perform like that. The one I used was a Pratt & Lambert powder that you mix yourself. It also points out the value of a good cover if it will spend much time sitting out in the weather.

There is some difference between applying the various types of stain. Water-based dries pretty quickly, but alcohol-based stuff dries almost instantly. It's quite different from oil stain where you have fifteen minutes or more when you can rub it around and blend it and you certainly want to practice on scrap before attacking the boat itself. You can, however, usually do some blending on analine stain after it has dried by rubbing it down with a dry cloth. For alcohol stain, you may also notice that if you add a second coat, it may "melt" the first coat a bit and you want to watch carefully to be sure you're not washing holes into the first coat as you apply the second one. It has wonderful clarity and really brings out the fire in mahogany, but again I'll warn you to practice first on scrap wood. Don't even think about putting it on the boat without getting used to working with it a little bit first.

pcford

05-19-2007, 01:55 AM

Years of experience can be good, but what is "known" and " the way I have always done it" can be bad.

It's not just me. My restoration techniques are quite ordinary. This is how things are done by most runabout restorers. Is everybody wrong? I don't think so.

Some people prefer to philosophize, I suppose.

few3

05-19-2007, 11:39 AM

Robmill0605

05-19-2007, 03:09 PM

Thanks everyone, I'm going to stain this boat and finish it in the traditional manner.
I'll post the results as soon as I'm done...

Paul Girouard

05-19-2007, 08:01 PM

This is making me crazy. I'm still trying to reconcile my experience with Jay's comment that "mahogany" will fade to straw-colored if left unstained, and the only type that won't is Cuban.

Honduran Mahogany - Swietenia macrophylla - Hondo

Hondo - My experience was described earlier. It darkens when exposed to ultraviolet light (UV)

Jay, and all - is it your experience that Hondo bleaches under extreme UV exposure? Or... are you possibly talking about Phillo, or maybe Khaya?

Sorry for the long-winded post, but I would really like to get this straight for my own future use and sanity. I welcome any comments or clarifications.

I'm a little late to the party here but here photo's of what Honduras Mahogany looks like if left alone / not oiled and /or stained / varnished.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept17002-2.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/May19th.jpg

These railing are Hondo , installed in 1999 or so , I used to oil them with Daly's Teak oil but no one has in at least 4 years so I'd agree with Jay.

Once the finish breaks down they turn grayish.

These rails are about 1/2 mile from Puget sound , sun is much worst them rain on them from what I've seen first hand. They are on a south east exposure , really take a beating from all the weather.

Don't wanta make ya crazy:D

Jay Greer

05-19-2007, 10:51 PM

Well, I would say that your wood is just plain weathered. The bleaching effect I spoke of is concerned with the normal boat grade Honduras that often is merely varnished without adding any grain enhancing or color intensifying stain. The wood, most often looks great for the first season, displaying the rich color of the natural wood and chattocy, irridescence of grain. However, the wood will slowly begin to turn to a color that closely resembles teak. Mind you this is not a bad thing if you don't mind the blond color. Personally, I like the look of well finished red mahogony and that is why I prefer to stain the wood. Filler stain is the simplest and most color fast of the available stains as it is made of ground natural earth tone French Chalk. Analine dyes will create a dramatic change but must be protected by good UV Varnish in order to no fade if not covered. Granted, the fading of dyed wood will take many years but it will happen. Finally, there is a manner of staining the wood by producing a chemical change within the wood itself by the use of what is called a "mordant". There are many kinds of mordants. The most commonly known one is ammonia which will turn oak chestnut brown.
In the case of Honduras, the mordant I use in furniture work as well as some boat work, is Potassium Dichromate. This chemical is an oxident and will cause honduras to take on a much deeper color depending on the strength of the applied solution. The bonus of this method of staining is that it will enhance the gain pattern to the point of giving almost a 3D effect. This is the method used by the old master furniature makers, such as Chippendale, to create that deep rich color in their pieces. It should be noted that Potassium Dichromate is a caustic poison and should be handled with due caution and respect.
Jay

Paul Girouard

05-19-2007, 11:45 PM

Well, I would say that your wood is just plain weathered.

Not mine anymore , it used to shine like a fine boats transom should :cool: , cuz I took care of it. Ya it's weathered :( thats what happens when nothing is done to Hondo Mahog for 5 or more years ita ain't pretty no mo:(

David G

05-20-2007, 02:26 PM

pcford

05-20-2007, 02:29 PM

Stain or not to stain is a preference, neither a necessity.

pcford,
I am well aware of the common coloring of wood to achieve a look, and how universally practiced it is. Runabouts are a perfect example, They all look the same.

I agree in some cases, it helps blend old with new, desirable in spot repairs.

I know that you know your business, I have no reason to argue you don't. I apologise if that is how I come across.

In my mind, my eye, my opinion, I prefer a natural finish. On exteriors, I know a natural finish could fade down the line, and at that point, coloring the wood may be desirable.

Wood stain also keeps desirable species from getting wiped out. How many times has someone shown you their Black Cherry desk, that is actually made of low grade Maple that has been doused in colorants?. We all benefit from this.

We both appreciate boats and craftsmanship, end of story

Just one more note and I'll let this horse pass away. few3 quote above leads me to believe that he still believes that the use of stain is to make wood look like something that it is not. That is certainly the case sometimes. However, in the case of boat wood it is not to make pine planking look like pattern grade hondo. It is to accentuate the beauty of the wood not to disguise it.

Often I hear people, when contemplating staining, say that they prefer the wood "natural." This is often spoken with a bit of hauteur...and an implication of perceived superiority. Some woods suffer from not being stained. Philipine mahogany will appear flat and bland if not stained.

If you want to see wood natural, go to a forest.

Robmill0605, I hope we have cleared up staining for you. There does appear to be some tonal difference in your planking. Photographs are notoriously misleading. After you stain and put a couple coats of varnish on, you will know what's up.

If you are not satisfied, strip the boat back, dye any light planks with aniline dye. Mask off with 3M chemically resistant tape, put drape around and treat the light plank. Then remove drape and stain overall with filler stain.

capt jake

05-20-2007, 03:40 PM

Some woods suffer from not being stained. Philipine mahogany will appear flat and bland if not stained.

Really????:confused::rolleyes:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p8f3cfe0b7f129dcf66fc926ac5f12a60/e9c16167.jpg

pcford

05-20-2007, 03:48 PM

Really????:confused::rolleyes:

Yes, certainly. You evidently have some meranti...which is probably the best of the lot of Phil. mahog. when it comes to looking ok when not stained.

And....if I may....using vg material on the deck will help along the illusion that there are separate planks.

few3

05-20-2007, 11:44 PM

Really????:confused::rolleyes:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p8f3cfe0b7f129dcf66fc926ac5f12a60/e9c16167.jpg

Ugghhh, How ugly!

Tear all of that wood off, and replace it with Purpleheart. Use a two-pack peroxide bleach to get rid of the ugly purple color, then stain it Chris Craft Mahogany.

capt jake

05-21-2007, 09:05 AM

I don't have a decent shot of the interior seating; no stain. I guess I should relent and scrap the whole thing.

Jay Greer

05-21-2007, 11:35 AM

Jay, Thanks for taking the time to confirm and elaborate. Educational, as always. I still find the "Hondo fading to straw" phenomenon difficult to believe, but you've got far more brightwork history than I, so I'll file it under "likely, but pending" <G> The use of mordants is interesting also. I have fumed a few pieces of (white) oak, craftsman-style furniture, but have never tried the potassium dichromate on mahogany. It sounds lovly. Can I ask why you didn't go that route on your boat? Too unwieldy?

"You're only as young as the last time you changed your mind" -- Timothy Leary
The reason for not using a mordant on the trim of "Bright Star" is that the bright work is African Mahogany. African does not react in the same manner as does Honduras to potassium dichromate. Rather than the rich red brown that it causes Honduras to turn, it causes the wood to turn an uninteresting shade of brown that is not very attractive.
Jay

sdowney717

06-14-2007, 08:27 AM

I like the look of minwax gunstock oil stain on mahogany.
Its easy to go get, its cheap, and it looks good. I then cover it with water based minwax polycrylic gloss or satin clear.

The redder minwax colors are too red, the gunstock gives it just the right amount of red color, not too heavy. Plus I have noticed that as it ages, the mahogany does darken with time. Except if its exposed to full sun. Then it can go blonde and then it goes grey. I dont care about filler stain to fill the pores, I dont care if it is not perfectly smooth.
I had good luck with a minwax stain and a minwax polycrylic INTERIOR water based poly on a transom. 5 years and the poly had not peeled. Perhaps because the boat transom is vertical to the sun and not flat on.

http://minwax.com/products/woodstain/woodfinish-color.cfm

just for some of you, I sell sanitred, durabak, nyalic, goretex shaft packing, mcfeely SB screws, pl premium construction adhesive, minwax clear polycrylic.
Have I missed any?