Next question...Shop Heating [Archive]

Beowolf

12-21-2006, 12:33 PM

All right fellas...Keep the good info/dialogue coming...

Next up is the issue of heating...

As mentioned in the lighting post, the barn is 30x40 with about 3/4's of it decked above for an upstairs. Of that upstairs portion, the back 16 feet is enclosed to be a library/studio/office...whatever...the rest (15x24) is a storage loft, open to below. The space that is open from floor to rafters is where the truck is parked (North East quadrant), the shop is in the downstairs area that has an 8 foot ceiling.

I'd like to use a combination of gas and wood to heat the barn. My intention to to keep it at about 55 degrees throughout the cold season. Here's my proposal....

The workbenches and handtools will be located in the front corner of the barn (South East). That is where I'd locate the thermostat (55 degrees) I'd like to install a small, preferably wall/ceiling hung forced air gas furnace on the back wall (West wall) with a single run of ductwork from the back wall to the front wall (East) with vents opening along the South side of it (Towards the shop area).

In addition, I'd like to install a small wood stove (Ex. Vermont Castings Aspen stove (18,000 btu)) in the upstairs room. I even thought about mounting a fan in the wall to move air over the stove and into the barn but I'm concerned that might effect the draft/air control of the wood stove.

Just curious to hear what all of you have done.

Thanks in advance

Jeff

Editted to add: The walls will have 6 inch Fiberglass insulation and the ceiling will have 8 inch Fiberglass insulation.

WillW

12-21-2006, 03:29 PM

I've been using a barn/shop, and the one thing that really worries me is the possiblity of fire. The barn was built in 1890, and it's actually 3 barns in one, almost 100x100. If that thing every went up, it would probably take the house and the nearby forest too.

So, I've pondered a separate building altogether, or an outdoor wood furnace. The furnace could use pipes run under the concrete floor, and a radiator/forced air, plus send extra heat to house as well.

Dan Lindberg

12-21-2006, 06:10 PM

Be very carefull with the wood heat.

Almost all the old wood canoe makers had a fire at one time or the other.

My place isn't as large as yours but I hope/plan to hang a gas furnace for heat. For me, while wood burning sounds attractive, I don't know I generate enough scrap to make it worthwhile.

Dan

capt jake

12-21-2006, 06:53 PM

I use a ceiling mounted Reznor natural gas heater. Works sweet! :) Walk in, turn up the thermostat and relax. ;)

merlinron

12-21-2006, 07:13 PM

the only problem with any kind of hydronic heat is tha recovery is slow. it is designed for steady state heat, not being turned on or off / up or down as outside temps or shop use varies. as you stated forced air of some sort is the best method of quick heat, but not good for certain shop operations. wood heat is way too dangerous, many fires have started when the door is opened to stoke up. unless it is outsidetype, seperated from the shop.... and the vicious circle continues.
watch out with modine types, many of them have open flames and will ignite dust as easily as a wood stove.
depending on the size of your shop that you want heated, one alternate is to build in- floor heat by laying the tubing on the exhisting floor and building a new plywood or osb. floor just over the top of it.

capt jake

12-21-2006, 07:15 PM

It has a fan that forces are through the heat exchanger. Mine is like this http://www.rezspec.com/images/mod_catalog/f.png But the new slim line units would be the way to go. I may buy another unit for the space adjoining my present shop.

djswan

12-21-2006, 08:24 PM

The best shop heat doesn't leave a well insulated shop. Is spray urethane out of the question? Wood heat still rules. There's nothing like backing your butt up to a wood burning stove. It can take pain away. Derek

Paul Girouard

12-21-2006, 10:17 PM

I use wood , I've worked in shops with heaters like Jake showed. Forced air blows dust just like it moves air , so if fine finish's are in your future you'd need a clean room / filtered air area, with a forced air system , more than likely to work effeicently.

If your elect. pnl is big enough radiant ceiling heat panels might be sweet , no flame / pilot light so no explosion issues with finishes / P. Lam glue / contact bond, no forced / blowing air / dust.

We have used them on houses , nice even heat , they come in different sizes / widths / lengths / watts .

http://www.toolbase.org/Technology-Inventory/Interior-Partitions-Ceilings/radiant-ceiling-panels

There plus and minuses to every heat known to man , even the sun;)

capt jake

12-21-2006, 11:00 PM

Forced air blows dust just like it moves air

Paul, that's a 'different' type of hot air. ;) :D You must have made it through the storm OK.?

Paul Girouard

12-21-2006, 11:40 PM

You must have made it through the storm OK.?

What storm ?? Livin on Whidbey ya gotta like the wind ;) Other than a 26 hour period without power and a few shingle tabs off the shop roof , it's all good.

capt jake

12-22-2006, 10:30 AM

What storm ?? Livin on Whidbey ya gotta like the wind ;) Other than a 26 hour period without power and a few shingle tabs off the shop roof , it's all good.

Better than the nearly 5 days here.:eek: I'm still cold. ;) Got some firewood for a fellow builder though. ;)

Beowolf

12-22-2006, 10:50 AM

I too was a little concerned about the fire issue with a woodstove which is why I'm looking at a small one in the room upstairs, separated from the main shop area. I know that dust will make it up in there, but I'm hoping to keep it somewhat under control. Really, the small stove will only be for getting rid of scraps and "ambiance" while spending time upstairs.

I also understand what you guys are saying about forced air spreading dust about, but I can't see myself being able to foot the bill for radiant heat (Did the article say something about $400 - $500 per panel?)

Keep the good info coming, I appreciate it.

Jeff

capt jake

12-22-2006, 11:01 AM

little concerned about the fire issue with a woodstove

Not to make this sound like a non-issue; but a lot of people are totally afraid of 'dust-explosions'. Truth is, the concentrations required to propogate a dust explosion are pretty high. Of course it is quite dependant upon the dust that is in suspension. It would need to be airborne and dusty to the point of obscuring you vision a lot (as a relative measure of concentration). I personally don't worry about it. Flammable vapors need to be properly vented in any case. ;)

Now dust settling on any heating device will eventually burn. Burn to what point is dependant upon how much is there. I blow out my heater a couple of times a year, just depending upon how much stuff setles in there. ;)

Paul Girouard

12-23-2006, 12:32 AM

I also understand what you guys are saying about forced air spreading dust about, but I can't see myself being able to foot the bill for radiant heat (Did the article say something about $400 - $500 per panel?)

Keep the good info coming, I appreciate it.

Jeff

I think it said $200.00 and up . IIRC the ones we used where closer to the low # than the high. I can make a call or two and see what brand we used. Let me know I'll only do this if your interested, there are some "funkie" brand heaters on the market , or so sez the guy who sold us the ones we used. Both folks we used them for seem to like um , and they both are the type to "let ya know " if they arn't happy:rolleyes: Say no more , eh:o

The sell point is nice even heat , cost less than a forced air syst. going in , it's a zone type heat so places that are used more can be heated and those that arn't used can be lowered / shut off.

So it's really a good deal for a shop , and buy in cost will be more or less the same with any system , even a new wood stove , a nice one will cost ya $300.00 buck easy, unless you go the barrel stove route .

So I wouldn't write them off till you compare , check out your elec. pnl. , etc.

Ron Williamson

12-23-2006, 07:27 AM

Jeff
You could put woodstove on the ground floor to keep the bark and crud down there and run a single wall chimney pipe, through a thimble, into your upstairs office space.
Lots of heat,little ambiance though.
Regarding explosions,I know a guy who sprays lacquer in his garage with a woodstove roaring away.He's been doing it for years,but even with the doors open and a fan running,I still couldn't wait to get outta there.
R

capt jake

12-23-2006, 09:06 AM

The gas fired radiant ceiling heaters are also very nice. Propane or NG. Spendy when new, but sometimes they pop up used. Get the ones that are vented (flue to the outside). The un-vented ones require an enormous amount of make-up air.

Beowolf

12-23-2006, 10:37 AM

O.k.

So the "West Coast Contingent" has peaked my curiosity on this radiant heating. I've got a NG line run out to the barn, so both options may be viable.

Tell me where to look for more.

Thanks

Jeff

capt jake

12-23-2006, 10:58 AM

Real spendy, but Devlin picked up some of these used a few yers ago for only a few hundred. Poke around the Grainger site to get an idea of what is available. I recently spotted a couple of infra-red radiant gas heaters on Craigslist for only $125/pr. They retail for over $600 each. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/itemDetailsRender.shtml?ItemId=1612528977

Not radiant, but I just found this. http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/tls/251804728.html

Paul Girouard

12-23-2006, 11:56 AM

Jeesh the forums being slow and kicking back posts here on my end . I hope it's the system and not my equipment.

theses are the panels I've used / worked with , contact point is on their site ,, http://www.infraredheaters.com/ceiling.htm;;

Good luck , Paul

Paul Girouard

12-23-2006, 12:59 PM

You can mount them on walls as well , must be nice for drying lam glue . I should get a 110 V. for over my old crappy work bench eh Jim:D

Tom Hoffman

12-23-2006, 01:00 PM

Paul Girouard

12-23-2006, 01:06 PM

Here in Iowa, many farmers are going to in floor (concrete) radiant floor heat for their pole building shops. It is very inexpensive, and can be run using a simple pump system and a hot water heater. I know farmers who heat a shop 60 feet long and 40 feet wide with one hot water heater with 14 feet of head room, granted they are well insulated. But heating a shop that large with a hot water heater is really very inexpensive.

Could you pour a new concrete floor over your existing one?? It would also solve any concerns about combustion of shop dust.

Tom.....

Tom It's basically a brand new shop Jeff's got , with already 8' ceiling heights in some sections . In floor heat would IMO not be player at this time for this shop , to much going backwards / added cost / issues .

And for a shop water radient heat wouldn't be a good option unless it was a pro shop / used almost every day . Water radient heat makes since when the temp you want will be maintained for long periods , as it can't be turned on and off , it needs a mass to hold the heat and is slow in adjusting to "new" temps.

merlinron

12-23-2006, 06:12 PM

as stated by others, hydronic doesn't cost much to install, especially when using a water heater ( and they do work good), but there are things you have to do to keep them from cycling themselves to death. particularly, anything biggerr than a regular 2-car garage should have 2 water heaters on seperate zones. they aren't designed to handle the "call for heat" load like a boiler is. and lots of blue dow under the slab. the longer burn times of having a large surface to heat will burn them out fast.

Tom Robb

12-23-2006, 08:29 PM

How about hot water baseboard heat? Way less mass to contend with, but still may be slow to heat up for irregular use.

capt jake

12-23-2006, 08:34 PM

Interesting to see the different perspectives on this topic provided by the two different coasts. Not saying one is better than the other, but definitely two differnet points of view. ;)

merlinron

12-23-2006, 11:29 PM

baseboard is also a form of hydronic, maybe slightly quicker in responce and recovery than in-floor, but being only convection, it is still much slower than any form of forced air. it's increase in responce and slight improvement in recovery is because the radiators do create somewhat of a thermal, making the warmed air slowly circulate the room, but it still works best (operating cost wise) if left alone to creat a steady state of warmth. there isn't allot of installation cost difference between "fin" (trade nickname for hot water baseboard) and in-floor and only a very small increase in responce and recovery and any one considering using fin in a building on a concrete slab is better off putting lines in the slab and gaining the superb comfort of a warm floor.... "when your feet are warm, your whole body is warm" is the saying. the popularity of fin is because it is super easy to install in just about any situation. if you have no basement /crawl space to run the supply loops/zones in they can be simply run in the corner of the wall/floor and hidden under either fake register, built out baseboard, or layed on the subfloor with the underlayment cut to keep it in the corner, right under the regular baseboard.

Tylerdurden

12-24-2006, 07:49 AM

Paul Girouard

12-24-2006, 08:56 AM

I must say Hydronic in a shop envroment is the best heat I have experienced. We added 6k to the shop were I work and its proving economical and the most comfortable. I do intend to use this method for my shop with a woodfired boiler for daily use and oilfired for backup.

Sure would be if a guy worked in the building 5 or more days a week, Jeff's a school teacher so it's unlikely he'll be in the building even weekly for any period of time . Hydronic :rolleyes: jeesh my Dad installed water base board heat back in the early 60's , it was called "oil heat" cuz that what fired the boiler, add the hydronic word and now it's some "new super duper wiz bang "Wersbo" / Uplong " heat to save the world :rolleyes:

Tylerdurden

12-24-2006, 10:17 AM

Sure would be if a guy worked in the building 5 or more days a week, Jeff's a school teacher so it's unlikely he'll be in the building even weekly for any period of time . Hydronic :rolleyes: jeesh my Dad installed water base board heat back in the early 60's , it was called "oil heat" cuz that what fired the boiler, add the hydronic word and now it's some "new super duper wiz bang "Wersbo" / Uplong " heat to save the world :rolleyes:

Your right, I don't see it being useful for part time use unless the shop were super insulated. For home use nothing beats it though.
Set the t-stat at 68 and never worry about it and always feel warm.
In a shop when you open the garage door all the heat leaves but with radiant floor heat you zoom right back to comfort.
Our shop plans include 4" of blown foam insulation covered by shotcrete on steel frames. Even with just weekend use the fuel costs would be about the same as firing just on use days. Its all a matter of what you want. A friend nearby heats an oversized duplex, about 5k' of shop space and his full sized swimming pool with a wood fired boiler (LP for backup) . He burns mostly used pallets and about any scrap wood he can get a hold of. Its all hydronic and thermal mass with a heat exchanger for the pool.
When power was out for about a week two winters ago he had most of his neighbors sheltering there. Sometimes the planning and minor additional expense makes sense in the long run.

merlinron

12-24-2006, 10:36 AM

there's nothing new about hydronic heat, it's been around for a long, long time. it's actually a spill-over from commercial construction. big buildings were hydronically heated before the turn of the century and residential shortly after.

Terry Rhoads

12-24-2006, 12:10 PM

Are those electric radiant panels suitable for use in flamable (e.g. spray paint) environments? The links above don't seem to address that one way or the other. Some units I've seen specificly say no. Those ones mentioned by Jim Ledger sound like they get pretty hot. How could you tell the difference, based on wattage or construction?
-Terry

capt jake

12-24-2006, 12:13 PM

Spotted this on the bottom of the page.
CERTIFICATION AND SAFETY
FIRE RATING - Heating panels do not have a fire rating, but construction is of fire retardant materials. Panels normally are treated like light fixtures. If necessary, acoustical tile can be placed on top of the panels.
HAZARDOUS AREAS - Heating panels do not have a hazardous rating.

A spray environment would be considered a hazordous area, technically speaking. ;)

Paul Girouard

12-24-2006, 01:37 PM

I give up , he's not running a commerical spray booth , he heating a friggin home owner used barn / shop . A space generally not used / heated unless he's in the shop.

Oh well thread drift is good right:rolleyes:

Merry Christmas lads :) Jeff you've got more than enought info here to make a decision , good luck , Paul

capt jake

12-24-2006, 01:54 PM

That's why I said, "technically speaking". ;) Profesionally, I have to advise against it, personally I wouldn't worry about it. ;)

Terry Rhoads

12-24-2006, 02:20 PM

Thanks, Capt., you've got better eyes than I. And thanks for differentiating between your professional (fire capt.) and personal opinions. I asked for my own information, not necessarily as an answer to Jeff's situation. If that created thread drift, I apologize. -Terry

Paul Girouard

12-24-2006, 05:06 PM

I asked for my own information, not necessarily as an answer to Jeff's situation. If that created thread drift, I apologize. -Terry

Ah no worries Terry . It is a bit fustrating when your keying in on a issue and " other ideas / situations" get introduced , so my apolgizes are in order, I guess , if I have to :D

Indeed the elec. panels/ heaters , nor most "common lighting" / fans / heaters would be non-conforming in a"legal" spray booth. Like Jake said "almost every time " they would be OK , it's that once , special instance when the right amount of dust , the exact amount of suspended laquer , static elec. in the air , the shop door 1/2 open / closed , the 50 other almost unimagineable planets lined up , etc etc that cause a explosion when a light switch is flipped that ruin a life time .

Have a great Christmas , Paul