Plans subcription

[kharee]

Is it possible for a group, say 100 forumites, to subscribe $50.00 each to have a design drawn up by a licensed designer? Each subcriber then being able to purchase plans for one build at a nominal or moderate price. Maybe even set up a nonprofit for working class wooden boat lovers. Subscribers could put in their .02 cents worth as the design goes through its iterations on the forum just as with the great boat TR is presently designing on the forum. If $50.00 is'nt enough $100.00 is still a small sum for beer drinkers.

[JimD]

Is it possible for 100 forumites to reach a compromise as to what the design ends up being?

[Ron Carter]

I can't imagine a naval architect working with a committee of 100 on a design. It is difficult enough with one client to get absolute agreement.

[mmd]

Yes, it is possible, and has beeen for a long time. A number of the classic one-designs came about by a club commissioning a design. The process would require that the club (WBF participants) agrees on a design brief that describes the boat desired. There then has to be a formalized structure (a committee, usually) set up to work with the designer and to administer the funds raised. The designer takes the design brief and creates a cartoon (the drawings that Tad has bee posting here recently) to confirm that he and the club are on the same wavelength. He submits the cartoons & supporting documents to the design committee for approval. Presumably the design committee reports to the club, and with the approval of the whole, returns the cartoon package to the designer with a list of comments and permission to continue. The designer does a preliminary design and submits it to the design committee for review. Upon successful review the final design activity is carried out. To my knowledge, the process is then that the plans become available to the club for printing costs, and license to build is available at a nominal fee per hull. Plans and license to build is commonly available to the general public at normal rates.

The pitfalls in this type of commission are:

1.) The in-fighting among club members. Somebody always gets angry about something and quits. Don't let them take their money. Have the club extract its dues up front so that when the designer's bill comes due there is cash in the bank to pay it.
2.) As Ron mentions above, the designer won't work with the whole group - he will want one or two contact people who are able to speak for the group.
3.) Once a design feature is agreed on and the designer set to work on it, you can't go back without penalty - the extra work involved to correct a "we changed our mind" event can be expensive and the club is responsible for it.

To end on a positive note, this past summer a restored boat was re-launched from the beach where it had been originally launched in 1946. This was the S-Class sloop Valkyrie, one of five remaining of the original six built by David Stevens in the winter of 1945-46. The design and building of the class was commissioned by a consortium of businessmen who wanted a new class of boat to race in celebration of the end of the hostilities of WWII. So, yes, a committee can design a boat that is both timelss and beautiful...

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d19/mmd_ns/profileafterlaunch.jpg

[Pierre LaRochelle]

We may need a separate committe to decide on a designer. I say we use Phil Bolger exclusively and skip that lengthy process. I take it we are each going to build the final design?

PL

[kc8pql]

Well, someone is getting rich today..

Actually, I'd say 5k for a custom design is pretty cheap. I doubt you could get something like that S-Class sloop for that.

[Hwyl]

Actually the people over at Sailing Anarchy, gave Robert perry insight into the Flying Tiger, it's a production boat and a not to the concensus of taste on this forum. A great boat nevertheless and designed in a forum not dissimilar to this one http://www1.ft10class.info/

[kharee]

That is an excellent development and summation of what I had in mind, MMD. Wishing and hoping and dreaming is great but it takes money. I am interested in a powerboat/70-30 motorsailer type design. Live-aboard/cruiser, two people. Wood of course. Most forumites seem to want first a hands on building experience and secondly some input from their "inner design genie"in the design. I am willing to work through committe just as long as I cruise before I die.

[JimD]

Question: If you're after a boat that might cost six digits to build why would you want to go through all the hassle and compromise of a commitee just so the plans only cost you $50?

[J. Spira]

If you're after a boat that might cost six digits to build why would you want to go through all the hassle and compromise of a commitee just so the plans only cost you $50?

... and weren't EXACTLY what you wanted, but were what whoever politicked his way to having the most influence on the comittee wanted.

- Jeff

[JimConlin]

... I am interested in a powerboat/70-30 motorsailer type design. Live-aboard/cruiser, two people. Wood of course. ...
That might narrow the market down to the point where you'll end up bearing a larger fraction of the design cost.

[Nanoose]

That might narrow the market down to the point where you'll end up bearing a larger fraction of the design cost.

...or the WHOLE cost!

[kharee]

The $50-$100 is the cost of a subcription share. The price of plans are nominal or moderate as set out in the earlier post. Nominal or moderate could range from $500 to $1000+, depending on the actual initial accord with the designer and the design process. Please re-read the post by MMD for clarity and understanding. As he said this is nothing new. Its a good way to get work by our great designers of the present day into a wider audience by making their work a little more affordable. And to support those new designers whose talent and empirical skills deserve a wider venue. And we forumites, whether subscribers or not would learn from and enjoy the process just as much as we are now learning and enjoying watching TR develop his present project on-lin on the forum.

[Nanoose]

Kharee - I got MDM's post. My understanding was that the finished design would be something most of, if not all of, the participants would be interested in building/owning. The example used was of various 'one class' designs. I'm just not sure there is a large number of forumites sharing your interest.

If "we forumites, whether subscribers or not would learn from and enjoy the process" - if this is happening as with TR's plans, we'll share in it anyway! Why pay $50-100 bucks for something we'd already get?

And, as MDM said, the work would go from designer to committee, so we wouldn't see a lot of the process anyway.

[kharee]

The subscription pays the initial costs. The market, the desires of the subscribers determine the final product. A design has several iterations which by the very nature of the design process broadens the market for the design in its different versions. Its the nature of the design spiral layed out in many books on the design process. Input equals output. Instead of putting in your two cents worth , you put in $50-$100 and get more for your money . You get the experience of the design process, committe style, depending on your level of involvement. You get to purchase a custom design ,at a moderate price, which may one day have historical significance. And you get a shot at building your dream if you live and persevere. Please re-read the initial post by MMD for clarity.

[rbgarr]

As has been said before, the cost of the design is a very small percentage of the cost of the boat. The cost vs. hassle 'benefit ratio' of the committee approach doesn't seem to work out as I see it (except for the case of a one-design sailboat class for a particular club), but try advertising your idea in Woodenboat! It might be something that a number of current subscribers would appreciate (and pay for by separate subscription) as an ongoing set of articles.

[JimD]

I want an inexpensive quick and easy to build 20 foot sheet plywood pocket cruiser to cross an ocean with. Anyone else want in?

[Tom Robb]

No.

[paladin]

actually....the last boat that was designed for me was a 60 footer, and in 1984 dollars was over 20K and it was for the boat, less systems with a designer who was considerably cheaper than most...

[Rick Starr]

I want an inexpensive quick and easy to build 20 foot sheet plywood pocket cruiser to cross an ocean with. Anyone else want in?


...Catboat cockpit
...long overhangs
...accomodations for 4
...goes to windward "like a scared 8-metre"
...Trailerable.

Am I missing anything?

Oh, and 'no lofting required', LOL!

[JimConlin]

Add:
...can be built with low-cost materials like lauan underlay plywood. Certainly no epoxy.

[JimD]

Hahaha, gentlemen :D

Ok, we all pretty much know the drill here. How about:

Near plumb ends.
Moderate beam, even a little on the narrow side.
Hull form could be as simple as a single chine dory/sharpie but multichine could be worth the extra work but must be for sheet plywood, not interested in coldmold or strip.
Small self draining cockpit.
Spartan accomodation for two.
Comfortable sitting headroom inside but not an inch more.
Draft around three feet with a fair amount of weight on the bottom, say 1500#s or so on a fixed keel. No centerboard and definitely no freakin' leeboards.
And last but not least a junk rig, either a single sail or with a small mizzen cat ketch.

Sound about right?

[Hwyl]

Jim, it's time to stop dreaming. You're posts are all about Welsfords Swagman, I hate it, but if you want to build it, get off the keyboard and start making some sawdust.

[paladin]

on a practical side....If it is to be a sailboat, plywood, for extensive cruising, and perhaps trailerable, the beam will be the limiting factor....
To keep the craft at 8'6" or narrower for road touring, the overall length may dictate a boat 22 to 24 feet in length. By building multichine you can use plywood or strip planks for the skin. A cutter rig may be dictate for simplicity and efficiency.......

[JimD]

Jim, it's time to stop dreaming. You're posts are all about Welsfords Swagman, I hate it, but if you want to build it, get off the keyboard and start making some sawdust.

Au contraire, mon ami. Swaggie was eliminated from the short list a long time ago. Too short, too wide, and not designed for sheet plywood.

[JimD]

on a practical side....If it is to be a sailboat, plywood, for extensive cruising, and perhaps trailerable, the beam will be the limiting factor....
To keep the craft at 8'6" or narrower for road touring, the overall length may dictate a boat 22 to 24 feet in length. By building multichine you can use plywood or strip planks for the skin. A cutter rig may be dictate for simplicity and efficiency.......

I'm looking at 20 feet long by 7 feet wide. Nothing wider. Anything much wider would be too stable upside down which would make her dangerous, and too shallow draft which could give her an uncomfortable motion and limit pointing.

The short list now is all Selway Fisher.

[Hwyl]

A little light hearted chain rattling.

I personally like this Jack Holt design

http://www.bluelightning.co.uk/Lively/lively08.jpg

[JimD]

Isn't that a Blue Lightning by Keith Callaghan? Not a bad performance day boat from what I hear. Now about that 1,000 pounds of ballast...:D

[Hwyl]

It's the boat that inspired Blue Lightning. A Jack Holt design with a cabin added.