Nexus Marine St. Pierre Dory

[Pierre LaRochelle]

I purchased the plans for the St. Pierre Dory designed by David Roberts of Nexus Marine with the intent of making this (perhaps, maybe , possibly...?) my next Boat project. I feel it is very suitable for exploring the Puget Sound, the Canadian Gulf Islands, and beyond. The one thing that is troubling me is the designed beam of 8'-9" (2.67M). I originally thought that towing made sense, however, the max. beam for a boat in tow in Wa. is 8'-6" (2.59M) otherwise you need to get an oversize permit which restricts when (time of day) that you can tow your vessel.

I haven't discussed this issue with Nexus Marine, and I'm sure that David Roberts can adjust the designed beam down to 8'-6". My question is this: should I fuss over the extra 3" Beam? Of course I'm not implying that I plan to disregard Washington boat trailering regulations here, I'm just wondering if a boat this size should only be delivered to a summer moorage on a seasonal basis and then dry stored over the winter, rather than attempting to drag this +/- 3000#, 27 foot long by nearly 9 foot wide dory on what may only be short week-end or week day excursions.

Is this boat too big to trailer? I'm not looking for a full time moorage either.

PL

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid222/pc846aa9deabaa99e608a7a3da17ac552/eb27b4bc.jpg

[paladin]

you may get away with it, and you could get a ticket the first time out but I would build it, trailer it, and fein ignorance if I was stopped and measured. With the stuff being dragged all over today I dunno if three inches will make a difference.

[Thorne]

As above I wouldn't sweat the width requirements, as you probably won't get cited unless you get in an accident.

I'd worry more about the intended use -- do you have any experience in towing and launching boats this size? Do you have the honkin' big truck to tow with, and will you be comfortable driving and parking said truck when not towing?

If you don't have any experience, I'd see about getting some -- find someone with a boat or horse trailer of about the correct size and weight and tow it around a parking lot or country road. If you don't have the big truck, rent or borrow one and try driving it around also.

[Pierre LaRochelle]

I've towed a 16' boston whaler pulled by a BIg A@$ dodge power wagon. I do realize that we are talking about a large boat here. I agree about getting some experience towing something comparable before jumping off the ledge. Right now I drive a GMC sonoma (4 banger) two wheel drive. The St. Pierre will be a bit much for that truck.

Thanks for the objective input and advice as this will factor in to my decision to go or no go on this venture.

PL

[pipefitter]

It's hard to tell because the bottom of that boat is narrow so the trailer wheel base may not hog the lanes. Thats only 1½" per side over. I think the narrow stern may give the illusion of a narrower boat or they will be too busy drooling to notice.

[Pierre LaRochelle]

St. Pierre In New Zealand on Trailer

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid222/p3abe2a4ec56c98f0ea8c8360d1591ec1/eb26ebca.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid222/p5e1873e85e56111f31bbc9db64830ecd/eb26ebc6.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid222/pdac6ae0281e95e7e4a26a9ccdd7c9d37/eb26ebbf.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid222/pbedbb04c668ae2e3823765314202a307/eb26ebbc.jpg

PL

[boylesboats]

It's hard to tell because the bottom of that boat is narrow so the trailer wheel base may not hog the lanes. Thats only 1½" per side over. I think the narrow stern may give the illusion of a narrower boat or they will be too busy drooling to notice.

You know what?
You just give me an idea..

[JimD]

Bet it would be quiet a straight forward modification to add a chine about 8" below the sheer and lose that extra inch and a half on either side.

No thread drift intended but what were the design criteria that lead you to this dory? For example Glen-L has a similar dory 26 feet long and just under 8 feet at the beam. Still plenty of room and a little more practical for trailering.

[boylesboats]

Bet it would be quiet a straight forward modification to add a chine about 8" below the sheer and lose that extra inch and a half on either side.

No thread drift intended but what were the design criteria that lead you to this dory? For example Glen-L has a similar dory 26 feet long and just under 8 feet at the beam. Still plenty of room and a little more practical for trailering.

That's true... I seen at Glen-L too.... Both Nexus and Glen-L have good designs... Nexus have stated that St. Pierre Dory beam can be narrowed if the width is the issue, a simple trick of shorten each frames a few inches

[Thorne]

For most mid-size or mini-trucks/SUV's, you will need a 4x4 to get a boat that size and weight up the ramp without burning up the clutch. Don't ask me how I know this...

;0 )

[Pierre LaRochelle]

My decision to go with the Nexus verses Glen-L are purely aesthetic. The Glen-L St. Pierre is more traditional in form with minor modifications, the Nexus model is a real looker re-engineered for visual acceptance and pleasure use. I actually would go with John Gardners' St. Pierre over the Glen-L and modify to suit. No offense to Glen-L affectionadoes, but to me, Glen - L is very much like Bruce Roberts, strictly a dream vendor (Plans Mill)

PL

[JimD]

No offense to Glen-L affectionadoes, but to me, Glen - L is ... strictly a dream vendor (Plans Mill)

PL

Well they sure have made a lot of dreams come true ;)

[Mike Keers]

This is a Glen-L St. Pierre, shown berthed on Tancook Island, N.S.. My friend built it here in Arizona and towed it up to Chester, N.S. It's the 'goin to town' boat. I made the trip from Tancook to Chester several times in it. It's tender, a real roller. The local builders and fishermen say it needs about 1000 pounds of fish in it to stiffen it up. It's designed to be tender for hauling nets over the side I'm told , but it can be alarming until you get used to it.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/149/353966300_c76c295cef.jpg

[Spokaloo]

Firstly, I know and work with SPD, Spo Sheriffs office, WSP, etc etc. I can wholeheartedly guarantee they will not call you on this 6". The only place you would get noticed is either at a weigh station (which you will not drive through anyways) or an inspection office, which is the feigning ignorance part. Have absolutely no worries driving down the highway or the byway, as they will not notice this.

Secondly, well... What I thought I was going to find wasnt there, so enjoy the firstly doubly.

E

[JimD]

It's tender, a real roller. The local builders and fishermen say it needs about 1000 pounds of fish in it to stiffen it up. It's designed to be tender for hauling nets over the side I'm told , but it can be alarming until you get used to it.

Interesting. Glen-L has it in their 'Workboat' category but I wonder how many builders actually hang nets over the side. Probably most are used as recreational touring around boats not realizing how cranky dories can be without that 1,000#s of fish in the bottom.

[Mike Keers]

I have no doubts the design is very seaworthy and burdensome, and would make a great workboat, but working my way forward underway on the narrow side deck in some modest swells my feet were getting wet. :p

The Glen-L / Hankinson design is based closely on the designs in the Gardiner book, adopted for ply on frame amateur building, and the originals are legendary boats. Not a bad choice as a recreational boat all things considered, but not a very comfortable ride high on its lines as my friend's is. It tends to pound as well. Note I'm only speaking of my experience with the essentially empty boat shown--the Nexus boat (beautiful, as are all their boats IMO) and other versions may have design differences like the flare of the sides, the amount of rocker, whether fitted with a skeg or not, etc. that could influence handling and seakeeping.

To the original question of towability, and again speaking only of the G-L, it was towed thousands of miles to NS behind a mid-70's Mercury Marquis. I'd suspect it's somewhat lighter than the Nexus tho.

[JimD]

Hanknison has (had) a slightly larger ballasted sailing version, too. I wonder if the his plans will become available again sometime? And McNaughton has a 29er for sailing. Beam is close to ten feet, though.

[boylesboats]

Maybe someday that I will build a St. Pierre Dory... They are sweet looking...

[Spokaloo]

Jim, Hankinson has pretty militantly said no about opening his plans up again. BUT, if you want, he does live over here just outside spokane.

E

[dm_scott]

Did you look in Sucher's Simpliefied Boatbuilding, The Flat Bottom Boat. There are a couple of different St Pierre Dory designs there.

[Pierre LaRochelle]

Speaking of Sucher's Simplified Boatbuilding, when I returned to school to finish my bachelors degree, I sold both the "Flat Bottom" and The "Vee Bottom" simplified Boatbuilding books by Sucher for a few bucks. Now they sell for $125.00 or more. Many other now spendy boat books were haucked for the cause as well.

Oh, and yes I am familiar with the dorys discussed and shown in that book. And yes, I'm always in the market for good boat building books as long as they are not about one-off fiberglass and Ferro-Cement Boatbuilding!

PL

[Robert W. Long]

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i223/rubjohnson/pics027.jpgHi All: Is this a thread hijcak? If so I'm sorry. I saw this boat at 2004 Port Townsend boat show with the harbour master driving around in it. Is it a St. Pierre? Thanks, Robert.

[paladin]

Two things....first...I do not want to disparage Mr. Hankinson personally, but I have it on very good authority that he has some legal problems with his plans sales.......

and two...that Nexas design looks exactly like Jay Benfords 32 foot dory, and he has sail and power versions...

[Pierre LaRochelle]

The Dory shown in the 2004 Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival is a very good example of a St. Pierre Dory...Sweeeeeeeet is the proper adjective for that boat!

In terms of the Jay Benford look alike comment, I think that there is a similarity with the 32' Sailing Dory "Shoestring" which is quite a nice looking sailing dory at that. I do not, however, think that Nexus Marine designed a direct copy of J. Benford's. The raised pilot house is similar, in fact they are both well proportioned to a dory hull. The Benford sailing dory is double ended with a fin keel and yes a relatively flat bottom. The variations to the dory theme whether for sail or power seem extremely limited and it does not surprise me to see so much in common between two different designers. I believe that Jay R. Benford designed the 32' sailing dory back in the 1960's and the Nexus version of the St. Pierre is a more recent design.

I actually like the looks and design philosophy founded on simplicity and economy that both designers bring to the table in the form of a sailboat and the other a power boat.

You may want to take a look at Jay R. Benford's 32 and 36 foot St. Pierre dories...they are not as nice as the Nexus version IMHO. Benford clearly did the sailing dory well, Nexus mastered the power version!

I suppose it should go without saying but I will; afterall, aren't we merely comparing various compromises here in terms of ecomomy, and simplicity of form within the reach of the average boat builder/dreamer like myself?

I do not sense plagerism here, just good enomomic sense in a boating world up to its eyeballs in high price nautical fashion.

PL

[JimD]

Not surprisingly, there's only so many ways you can draw a specific traditional hull type and not have them look like one another.

[AlanL]

Hi Pierre,

The St Pierre Dory shown from NZ is mine, so I can offer some direct experience with her. You can also see more at http://www.alphabyte.co.nz/beatrice

First thing, about the towing. Beatrice is fairly heavy on the road. She weighs in at about 2500kg (incl. fuel, fishing gear, etc.), the trailer weighs 500kg, so I tow about 3000kg. The vehicle that was shown above (the Mitsi L200) isn't around anymore. Beatrice killed two engines in it, so I bought a new LR Disco TD5 instead. The Disco weighs ~2700kg, so the combined weight is roughly 5700kg, which means a heavy traffic license here (I already have one of those), not sure what your limitations are there though.

Whatever you choose to use, make certain it can handle hills. Ramps are not the issue. I have never had a problem on a ramp when the Mitsi was in 2WD (the LR is permanent 4WD), but I only ever launch her on a good concrete or bitumen ramp, never on sand.

Width-wise I think regulations vary from state to state in the US. In NZ she is overwidth (hence the hazard signs on the trailer), but falls inside the width that would require a permit. The restrictions are that I cannot tow during peak traffic periods in the morning and afternoon and I must display hazard signs. The other thing you need to consider is the length. On the trailer she measures 9.5m, so make certain you come within that range.

There is no real comparison between Beatrice and the Glen-L dories. I have found her to be very stable and not at all corky. That attribute in the Glen-L ones may be due to the materials (ply instead of heavy planks). And I think you are right, Dave got the numbers right with the use of the outboard well. and the broad transom.

So far as narrowing her. Well I ain't no designer but my inclination is to say no, don't do it. She needs the wider footprint in the water for the cabin. Also, when you are travelling at speed (over 12 knots) you don't want something that is likely to snake around.

She's a great boat and it took only 9 months from loft to launch.

Alan

[Thorne]

Alan -

Glad to see your post, as that provides a lot of essential info on both the specific design and general issues with towing boats that size and weight.

Having put three transmissions in my 4x4 minitruck due to towing boats, I'm glad to see that you are using a larger and heavier tow vehicle -- which is why I suggested to Pierre that he needs a "honkin' big truck".

And you are SO right about not modifying plans, particularly width on dories. My first dory was a 12' (15 LOA) Banks dory and had been pulled off the bottom of Richardson Bay before I bought her, and in retrospect should have been left there.

Someone had thought they'd be clever and build it 4" narrower than the plans called for on the bottom -- which resulted in the loss of more than 12" at the gunwales, producing a fatally tender boat. Even with 300lbs of wet sand in the bottom, the boat was very tender and quite challenging to operate on dead flat water.

Pierre - find a design you like and that meets your needs (and towing capabilities) and stick with the plan, man.

;0 )

[boylesboats]

Hi Pierre,

The St Pierre Dory shown from NZ is mine, so I can offer some direct experience with her. You can also see more at http://www.alphabyte.co.nz/beatrice

First thing, about the towing. Beatrice is fairly heavy on the road. She weighs in at about 2500kg (incl. fuel, fishing gear, etc.), the trailer weighs 500kg, so I tow about 3000kg. The vehicle that was shown above (the Mitsi L200) isn't around anymore. Beatrice killed two engines in it, so I bought a new LR Disco TD5 instead. The Disco weighs ~2700kg, so the combined weight is roughly 5700kg, which means a heavy traffic license here (I already have one of those), not sure what your limitations are there though.

Whatever you choose to use, make certain it can handle hills. Ramps are not the issue. I have never had a problem on a ramp when the Mitsi was in 2WD (the LR is permanent 4WD), but I only ever launch her on a good concrete or bitumen ramp, never on sand.

Width-wise I think regulations vary from state to state in the US. In NZ she is overwidth (hence the hazard signs on the trailer), but falls inside the width that would require a permit. The restrictions are that I cannot tow during peak traffic periods in the morning and afternoon and I must display hazard signs. The other thing you need to consider is the length. On the trailer she measures 9.5m, so make certain you come within that range.

There is no real comparison between Beatrice and the Glen-L dories. I have found her to be very stable and not at all corky. That attribute in the Glen-L ones may be due to the materials (ply instead of heavy planks). And I think you are right, Dave got the numbers right with the use of the outboard well. and the broad transom.

So far as narrowing her. Well I ain't no designer but my inclination is to say no, don't do it. She needs the wider footprint in the water for the cabin. Also, when you are travelling at speed (over 12 knots) you don't want something that is likely to snake around.

She's a great boat and it took only 9 months from loft to launch.

Alan

Alan,
Now that's is a great piece of information... I have dreamt of building St. Pierre Dory.. I seen your site from Nexus Marine links... I visited every pages that you have created, enjoyed seeing all the picture(s) that you had posted... It gives me the confidence in Nexus Marine designs...:)

[Pierre LaRochelle]

Alan,
I also want to thank you for the experienced advice on that wonderful watercraft. Brent in Windsor Ontario has given me a wealth of information as well, based on his personal experience building, towing, and operating his own custom built 32' St. Pierre Dory. I have no doubt at this time that the modified St. Pierre Dory makes for an excellent capable and economic cruising vessel. Although it can be burdensome to tow, what isn't, the ability to transport a boat with such amenities is a real plus since one can launch an adventure just about anywhere without having to spend an excessive amount of travel time on the water to get there.

Right now I am in the long term planning mode for such a project. I'm just nearing completion of a Devlin Egret and I have a house remodel/rebuild in store...you can see that I'm a ways out right now. The building of the Egret has taught me a great lesson in patience; planning such a build is as important as executing its construction.

By the way, I can't wait for the next installation of your travel photos. You wouldn't happen to have additional un-published construction photos? I noticed that the construction was staged differently than David Roberts suggests; in particular, the cockpit sole installation prior to planking was not done with your boat. I personally think that doing the sole and framing together per D. Roberts advice seems cumbersome. I think the builders experience (David Roberts) may have dictated that for expediancy. I also noticed that the beam on your St. Pierre per your buildiers spec. is 2.9M (9.5')? I would expect it to be 2.7M (8.75') as designed unless it was widened.

Again, thanks for the information!

PL

[AlanL]

I visited every pages that you have created, enjoyed seeing all the picture(s) that you had posted... It gives me the confidence in Nexus Marine designs..

Nexus do make it relatively easy with their designs. Dave is a very good designer. That couts for a lot when you are building something you have never tackled before.

Although it can be burdensome to tow, what isn't,

One of the reasons I went with the St Pierre was the weight factor. Yes, it is heavy and large, but the equivalent weight in something made from glass or aluminium would be even heavier. That would have meant a more robust (expensive) trailer, electronic brakes on all four wheels, etc. For her size, Beatrice is relatively svelt ;)

You wouldn't happen to have additional un-published construction photos?

There are lots of them, but the ones posted on the site tell the story best. And yes, we did change some of the ways from Daves instructions. Instead of using a strong back we glued the frames to the floor. After looking carefully at Nexus' construction techniques we thought their style of construction was geared to building with jigs, which we didn't have. In the end we tok great lengths to keep the actual hull shape the same as the offsets defined on the plans.

A couple of other variations:

A bulkhead on the rear of the dodger, which added weight above the WL, but the weather here can be very changeable and snotty and I wanted to close in the dodger, also we tend to go boating all year and not just in the summer months;
moved the galley from down in the cabin to the dodger and removed the portside passenger seat, which again raised the centre of gravity, but I didn't want the galley in such a cramped place;
installed a navigation centre where the galley was going to be installed;
raised the dodger roofline by an inch or so because we ran the beams cross-wise instead of length-wise;
removed the hanging locker and head wall in the cabin to open the cabin up a bit;
widened the outboard well by an inch each side to accomodate a larger engine (60hp Yamaha High Thrust);
installed a larger fuel tank below the cabin sole, partly to lower the centre of gravity after making the other chnages;
when first built, we omitted the spray rails but I added these early this summer. The improvement in performance and stability is noticeable, but they can be a little noisy.
Some of the changes Dave was not happy about, but we made efforts to counter the effect of any changes we made. Before making any changes I queried Dave first. Overall I think Beatrice is probably heavier than designed, but the extra weight is quite beneficial when you are in lumpy waters (say 3-5 foot chop and wind blowing at 25-30 knots).


The extra width comes courtesy of wider rubbing strakes. We did not alter the hull shape at all. This adds stiffness and something to bash against when you are coming up to piles or a wharf. I think they add a certain older world quality too (my first launch, when I was 15, was 80 years old and had great big lumps of rimu for rubbing strakes - she was a working boat through and through).

Alan

[Pierre LaRochelle]

Alan,
Thank you for the clarification and additional insights. I will in deed contact Dave regarding any changes if so made or proposed. I really do like to modifications that were made to yours; it appears to be very substantial not to mention the obvious eye catching appeal as well. I also like the all-season creature comforts of a fully enclosed pilot house...why limit cruising to only the summer months?

I hope you didn't think I was prying or asking too many questions. There is a small group of St. Pierre owners out there to fill in the missing details and exchange experiences with. I'm fortunate that Nexus Marine is less than one hour from my home...I have a good source from the designer indeed.

Best regards,

Pierre

[AlanL]

I hope you didn't think I was prying or asking too many questions. There is a small group of St. Pierre owners out there to fill in the missing details and exchange experiences with. I'm fortunate that Nexus Marine is less than one hour from my home...I have a good source from the designer indeed.


Not at all :) Always happy to spread the good word.

You are lucky having them so close. I'd really like to have a look at some of the production models they do there. Beautiful classic lines with subtle updates to suit new materials and motive power. Especially the Odyssey. That style of picnic launch is only recently becoming popular here but those that are built are hugely expensive (half a mill. average).

Alan

[David Roberts]

Hi all. One of my clients told me that this thread was running here, so I thought I should drop by. The Nexus Marine St. Pierre design is a completely new design, not copied or altered from some other design. It's supposed to look very like a St. Pierre Dory, even though it doesn't have traditional St. Pierre lines. The major differences are in the bottom rocker which is quite modified from the traditional and the sheer line, which is de-emphasized. It's also a light displacement boat if built as designed. D/L=146. GM is about 3.5' and the righting moment at 1° is 250 ft-lbs. Design geeks among you will recognize those numbers as the numbers of a normal boat of this size, in fact better than most deep-Vs. A journey forward along the side deck is without drama.

She does express her dory nature in a large chop, as her great flare causes her to move away from the water. That's a nice way of saying that she'll roll some in a beam sea. Not because she's tender, but because her motion is excited by that flare. On the other hand, that's the deal with dories: they're very seaworthy because it's almost impossible for water to board them. One of our owners described being in standing 15' wind-against-tide waves where in the troughs nothing was visible through the pilothouse windows except the surface of the surrounding waves. That was in a narrow passage in Alaska. No water in the cockpit. I think one can usually divide quoted wave heights in half. Still, a decent performance.

As far as trailering goes, if built as designed she'll weigh about 2700 lbs. with power, dry and empty. So she's light, but still quite an imposing package to have behind one's truck.

Alan added quite a bit of beautiful work to get her up to the weight he quotes. I think it's nice to know that the dory design handled the additional weight very well, and it's also a tribute to Alan and his builder that they arranged it so well.

[AlanL]

Hi Dave :)

Thank you for the compliments. I know we gave you cause for pause with our irritating questions :o

I want to confirm some of the things you mentioned. We have been out in some fairly horrible stuff and so far I have never shipped a wave over the bow (green water) and on only a few occasions has anything run up onto the side decks. Nothing into the cockpit, ever. Usually the wind around here seems to be 15-25 knots during the day, sometimes less and often more, with the sea conditions matching.

On the other hand, as you say, she does respond very quickly in a beam sea. Which is something one kind of gets used to, and is easily alleviated by putting the waves onto a quarter. And there is a tendency for spray in a chop of 2 feet and above to come over the wind screen. Those things are minor and the greater scheme, I think.


A journey forward along the side deck is without drama.

Sure is...
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz/200602/20060206/20060206Beatrice63.jpg
Alan