old boat lines

[manos]

Hi,
what was the methods that old times boat builders used to take off the lines of a boat(small or big)?Is these methods the same in Britain,Norway,
the mediteranean area,or there are diferences to the procedure?Is there someone with an approach of his own who would like to share with the forum?Pics or scetches, if any, would be helpfull to understand the procedure.What is the situation today in this "problem"?:confused:

[paladin]

Manos...check with Dave Fleming...he knows who has the Arno Day videos....I think the first video in the set shows the methodology for taking lines from an existing boat...I could write it out in detail, but I am tired right now and am going to take a rest...

[manos]

Paladin,
thanks for the suggestion.I'll check that.

[brian.cunningham]

There was a real good article in WB a while back, "Taking the Lines," Woodenboat, 19 (Nov.-Dec. 1977).

Here's a webpage that used in as a reference.
http://www.loc.gov/folklife/maritime/linesb2.html
The hardest part is coming up with a measuring jib, it kinda looks like a tool for a wood turning lathe. A measuring stick held perpendicular to the centerline of the hull.

[Barry]

See if you can find a copy of This. Great resource.
http://www.amazon.com/Boats-Manual-Documentation-Lipke-Paul/dp/0942063171

[mmd]

I think that in my dotage, I shall write a book...

I apologise for being a bit cynical, and sincere apologies to such boatbuilding luminaries as Alan Vaitses, but as one who has had to take lines off hulls in crowded boatyards, in snowstorms, in blistering heat, outdoors, indoors, and of hulls too big or too fragile to do things like "turn them over" or "level athwartships and longitudinally", there are flaws with the methods described.

- turning a hull over and sitting it on sawhorses presumes that it is relatively small (how many friends do you have who will risk back strain for you?), strong enough to withstand the abuse without changing shape (often, the poor old thing is so far gone that it bends like it has hinges somewhere in its structure), and that there is actually room where you want to work to swing a cat, much less turn a boat over

- using a laser level requires a fairly large area clear of obstructions to be able to have a good line over the whole boat, including those awkward areas under the tuck of the stern quarters, plus your set up becomes laborious when the distance between baseline and uppermost waterline exceeds the height adjustment of your laser level tripod.

Don't get me wrong; the string-and-straightedge method works fine and has for a very long time, but it has its limitations that you must be aware of or you'll get frustrated.

Anybody ever heard of the triangulation method of taking lines?

[htom]

I can imagine one, but recording and then doing the math to convert the lengths of the three measures to the point on the hull, for all of the points, would be an error-prone proces ... you've programmed your calculator, haven't you! The three distances to the point, and the three sides of the constant triangle the three tapes measure from, push go, get the three entries.

[George Ray]

What Would Chappell Do?
What did he do?

I guess the answer might be in the book on Amazon. $54 new but several copies are available used for $7.

Found via Google:
http://www.loc.gov/folklife/maritime/twoarti.html
The best way to learn is to observe an experienced person take the lines of a boat, then imitate the lines taker's actions. If such an opportunity is not available, one may learn the basics by studying published descriptions of the process, then practicing with an actual boat, preferably a boat under twenty feet in length. Fieldworkers must bear in mind that no single methodology can be used for the documentation of all vessels. Lines-taking techniques must be modified in accordance which such factors as vessel size, shape, and location. Techniques are discussed by John Gardner in his articles "Taking Lines Off Bigger Boats," "Taking Off Lines Allows Duplication of Existing Boats," and "Triangulation Method is Well Suited to Lifting Lines," by Walter J. Simmons in his book Lines, Lofting and Half Models, and by David A. Taylor in his article "Taking the Lines."2 The lofting procedure is clearly explained in Allan H. Vaitses' book Lofting.3 A concise description of how the lines of a particular small boat were taken off in the field is given in Appendix B.2 of this book. If the project's goal is merely to record the general characteristics of local boats, then fieldworkers can record key measurements and other significant details. A "Boat Documentation" form which can be used for the latter purpose is included as Appendix A.5. (http://www.loc.gov/folklife/maritime/a5.html)

[mmd]

Triangulation, yes; mathematical (geometry) calculations, no. All graphic.

[Barry]

Boats: A Manual for Their Documentation contains thorough directions for using the triangulation process to record lines.


Some sources for the articles George mentioned and some others on the topic.

Day, Arno. The Lines Plan . 3 Pts. Sea-TV: New Haven, Ct., 1990. Two 30-minute videotapes, and one 60-minute videotape.

Gardner, John. "Taking Lines Off Bigger Boats." National Fisherman 67, no.1 (May 1986): 58.

"Taking Off Lines Allows Duplication of Existing Boats." National Fisherman 66, no. 12 (April 1986): 44-5.

"Triangulation Method is Well Suited to Lifting Lines." National Fisherman 67, no. 4 (August 1986): 65-67.

Shock, Edison Irwin. "How I Took Pinkletink's Lines." In The Catboat Book , ed. John M. Leavens, 38-41. Camden, Me.: International Marine Publishing Co. for the Catboat Association, 1973.

"Taking the Lines." Woodenboat 19 (Nov.-Dec. 1977): 42-45.

[Lucky Luke]

A plumb, strings, two straight edge, a few measuring tapes and a level are all the formidable and hi-tech equipement used for doing the measurements of the most modern IOR boats. No triangulation. From the measurements taken, you could redraw the whole lines plan, although this is not the intent, but only to measure some precisely located points and give a rating. The boatyard may be crowded, the boat not level and with various supports, no problem, (although it is sometimes required to move a support in order to access a specific point, but that is because the IOR rule require a measurement at that one point). The only problem is excessive wind, of course. That is where some triangulation can become useful, but is not much used: the precision obtained with moderate wind is sufficient.

Then, answering to your question (not answering, actually), I don t think that there have been many different methods over the ages and in various regions. If someone has the possibility to rig a nice rigid frame below (or above) the boat: fine. But from the first gesture done by the builder (rig up the centerline string above the future boat and installing his jig below with necessary markings) to the taking of offsets of old boats, there is hardly any difference: parallel horizontal lines along and across the boat, and verticals to or from the hull. Period.

One thing, though, is to be noted: many builders do not give a crap about measurements, lines plans aso.... : they work by eye. That is how it is done here, in Vietnam, and in the whole Asia: make and position a keel, bow and stern pieces, all by the experience and habits of the builder, and a master frame (or template: most asian boats are framed after planking) by eye as well. No plan, no design no calculation...and they work! That is how it has been done for many centuries as well, everywhere. Then came the half models, and then the lines plans....

Does the modern Naval Architect work THAT differently? ;)

[Don Z.]

God protect us from the IOR...

[brian.cunningham]

I've got to think with modern lazer levels, that this job should be alot easier.

[paladin]

cheapest and easiest as Luke suggests....aided by nothing more than string, a plumb bob, some lengths of clear plastic tube, a gallon jug and a bottle of food coloring.......and an accurate rule....

darn....another short subject fer me book....:D

[bennieboat]

Luke’s description of Vietnamese boat building is strikingly similar with Dutch shipbuilding practice:
“they work by eye. That is how it is done here, in the Netherlands: make and position a keel, bow and stern pieces, all by the experience and habits of the builder, and a master frame (or template). Many Dutch boats were framed after (carvel) planking by eye as well...and they work! That is how it has been done for many centuries.”

(Although building ribs first and planks last is a parallel tradition throughout history in Holland. While using line plans and standardized industrial shipbuilding date back hundreds of years.)

Ben