Pooduck Questions

[sinneD]

greetings all-

i am thinking of building a pooduck skiff from plans i got from wooden boat. before i start, i have a few questions i hope other builders can answer.

1. plan errors- i have read that there is a mistake on the plans, but i have not been able to figure it out. can someone give more info?

2. outboard use- i would like to put a small outboard on it. has anyone put an outboard on it? how big would you recommend?

3. i hope to also use it to fish sheltered waters. how stable would the boat be to stand up and say fight and land a fish?

4. building space access- the space i have to build the boat has a 36" door i need to negotiate to get the hull out. i think its doable, but i wanted to ask if anyone has moved their hull through a door.

5. floatation- i have read in a few posts about people adding floatation to the boat. is it needed?

i am sure that there will be more questions as i go.

thanks in advance

dennis
chicago, il

[Thorne]

Sounds to me like you are trying to turn a VW Beetle into a Mack truck, but I'd try the various Pooduck builders, search for groups on Yahoo, and especially search Duckworks Magazine for the boat design.

Here's a link to a recent thread on a good outboard fishing boat -
http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=60711

If you want a small stable outboard fishing boat, there are lots of great plans around, but trying to cram rowing/sailing/motoring into one small boat will result in something that may do nothing really well...

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/

http://www.boats.rkstarr.com/skiff/pooduck.html

http://www.shoddynet.org/pootle/?cat=5

http://www.woodenboatparade.co.nz/post%201979.htm
(this last link shows one with a motor well)

[Rick Starr]

I sent him a pm but for the benefit of others I'll post here the gist of my thoughts about his Q's.




1. plan errors-... can someone give more info?

I talk about that on my site--it's not so much an error in the plan as a distortion in the reproduction of the plans which is quite common. The perpendicular and the baseline are not quite 90 deg from one another, so plotting points from offsets vs taking patterns from the drawings allows error to creep in. Stick with measurements.

2. outboard use-...

Pooduck was deliberately designed so as not to accomodate an outboard. She is strictly a sail-and-oars boat. The transom is too high and too raked to accomodate an ob, and there is not enough buoyancy aft to float the boat on trim and support a motor and operator. That said, one fellow very successfully made a spare rudder in which he fitted a trolling motor which runs from batteries under the center thwart--a very sensible plan.

3. ...how stable would the boat be to stand up and say fight and land a fish?

Not very. Pooduck is somewhat tender, which is why she rows so well. I stand up and sail mine from time to time, but there are simply much better choices in this size range for fishing.

4. building space access- the space i have to build the boat has a 36" door i need to negotiate to get the hull out. i think its doable, but i wanted to ask if anyone has moved their hull through a door.

I think you could do it, particularly if you left the skeg off till after you moved outside.

5. floatation- i have read in a few posts about people adding floatation to the boat. is it needed?

I think flotation arguments are for worriers. I built flotation into mine(being a worrier), I sail mine in the ocean, I've tipped her over a bit and she bounces back before the flotation even gets close to the waterline. It doesn't take much effort to add it in, but frankly I don't think it's necessary. One of these days I'll swamp mine just for fun and see what happens. I'll even have my wife take pics, for comic value if nothing else.

Good luck.

[Rick Starr]

To Dennis I should add that the shellback and pooduck, from what I've read everywhere I can find, were designed to be fun and able tenders which performed well under both oars and sail and looked classy to the new england waterfront eye, either on their own or towed behind a classic yacht. These qualities they both perform nearly perfectly. But none of these qualities is among your stated list of requirements, so I might suggest you are in for a lot of fun hunting through plans collections for a better fit!

[sinneD]

i should have propably been more specific/clear in my desires for a boat- a boat to primarily sail and when the urge arises, throwing on a small outboard to motor up some of the smaller rivers that feed into the greatlakes to fish for salmon and steelhead. i am not looking for a driftboat.

i have not seen many designs for a sailing/outboard skiff boat. maybe i am not looking in the right places. perhaps i should start a new thread to get plan suggestions?

dennis

[Thorne]

It appears that what you are looking for is a stable sailboat with a transom that can take an outboard -- nothing that will row well, but a compromise between sailing and outboard power.

For river use you'll want at least a slight V-hull forward, as flat bottom boats aren't kind when under power in a chop or swell. Possibly an unstayed rig for ease of striking/setup when switching from dacron to steel jib...and to avoid tangling with the fishing rods and lines.

Lots of plans meet these specs -- can you be more specific about other uses? Trailered or in the water always, 1 or 6 people, super-trad or modern design, workboat or fancy boat, etc.

[sinneD]

Thorne et all-

first off- my apologies for not formulating my needs and desires properly.

second- thank you for your patience and helpfulness.

yes, i am looking for a small stable boat that would sail and that could take a small outboard. i realize that combining the two will nescessitate some compromises, but i am ok with that.

a bit of history-i bought the pooduck plans almost 15 years ago with the aspirations to build a sail only boat. but as it usually happens, with one's youthful master plans, my career took me in directions that would not lend themselves to building a boat. now i have the time, space and monies to properly devote to building a boat. (at the time, i did buy 6 sheets of 9mm (iirc) okume plywood and an 8/4 x12' sapele plank that have been tucked away safely. i would like to use these materials if possible, but am not limited to them.) i am not worried if i do not use the pooduck plans.

the boat will be trailered. i have a full size pickup, so trailering is not a concern.

waterways: the great lakes, mostly southern lake michigan with weekend trailerings to northern wisconsin and michigan.

primarily, my criteria is a boat that I could sail. its secondary use would be to leave the sail rigging at home and put on a small outboard to gain access and fish some of the tributaries on the great lakes for salmon and steelhead. i could also see using it in smaller inland lakes. i drift and fly fish- no trolling or downrigging.

sailing: i learned to sail years ago in small 2 person boats and their size i think suits me. i want a boat in the range of 12-15 feet with enough room and capacity for 2 adults comfortably, or solo with maybe a dog or small child someday. though, i have not sailed in years, i think it will be like learning all over again.

outboard- 10hp or less. more like 5-8hp.

fishing: i would leave the sail rigging at home. i imagine launching the boat, and running up-river to get to spots that hold fish. i would then either beach the boat or anchor and fish. i drift fish by floating bait or fly cast from the boat. that or put into small to medium sized inland lakes and motoring around.

skills and equipment: i have what can be described as ole arn disease. i have plenty of tools and tooling both old and new. in a previous life i worked as a framer and have worked in cabinet shops, so i am not intimidated by the works i have seen in wooden boat.

as far as style of boat or construction methods, i am open to most of them. i am more partial to glued lapstrake construction, strip building or stich an glue.

i guess i am focusing on skiff type boats in the 12-15 foot range.

so thanks again for your patience and your guidance. i look forward to your suggestions.

dennis

[DJM]

I think the "Rogue" by John Welsford would be well suited to your needs, and you can row it also.

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/rogue/index.htm

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/rogue/roguez.jpg

[David G]

Dennis, I'm biased because I chose this boat to build myself, but I think I can honestly say that she fits your stated (but not yet, perhaps, fully developed) design brief. The Goat Island Skiff by Michael Storer:

"http://members.ozemail.com.au/~storerm/GIS/GISplan.html"

At his site you'll see reports from myself and other builders. In brief, she's a 15'-6" X 5'-0" flat bottomed plywood sharpie skiff. She's weighted toward sailing, but rows nicely, and motors fairly well too. She's a big boat for the size, and very stable for groups of teenage boys, or a pair of older, overweight, not always graceful fishermen. She trailers easily, but we cartopped ours for the first year. We've even turned her upside down and use the hull as a rain shelter.

I absolutely love John Welsford's designs (I suspect I'll build one at some point) but the GIS is simpler to build (though not as salty/lovely). Though I'm a professional woodworker, I was building w/two sons and a buddy who's an accountant, not a woodworker. Simple was a definite must. Partly, it depends on what your intent is. If you want to enjoy and settle into the process of building a boat, especially if you know that this is exactly the boat you'll be wanting for a fairly long time, then I recommend a Welsford boat - he's got several similar boats of slightly different sizes. I'd be proud indeed to say I'd built one, or be seen sailing one.

If you're more interested in simply Having/Using a boat than in the process of building one, I would recommend the GIS. Not to say that those are your only choices. There are tons of options, and I suspect you'll get lots of suggestions. For me, doing the research, and using the knowledge I was gathering to inform my choice of design, and anticipating the joys of rowing, motoring, sailing, fishing, picnics, camping, swimming, etc. was a wonderful part of the process. Enjoy.

"The most humane thing we can do is comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable" -- Clarence Darrow

[Thorne]

From lots of experience with small sailboats and outboards, plan on sometimes carrying the outboard while sailing -- as the winds don't always last, tides can go against you, and weather can often determine whether you complete your trip under sail or power.

So consider a boat (both the above are good choices) that can carry a 2-horsepower outboard (larger isn't needed) either on the transom or on the floorboards while sailing. If the boat can be rowed into the wind with the sailing rig up, oars are an option, but outboard power is better for true sailboat hulls for any distance in any wind. "Don't ask me how I know this..."

;0 )

If you have door width limitations, what is the overall size of your building space? From experience, it is very easy to underestimate just how much space a boat takes when under construction.

[sinneD]

thanks for the links to the other deisgns. i will look into them.

i have a couple of choices for building space- the basement and the garage. the basement is conditioned and where most of the wood tools are. after more thought, i don't think it is going to be a problem. i think i will start things in the basement, then move into the garage.

i am thinking that i will start building the parts and pieces in basement, things like the building jig/strongback, frames, scarfed planks, etc and then assemble in the garage. that way, all the wood dust i can handle with the existing dust collection and keep the epoxy and paint fumes outside.

thanks again for the collective help.

dennis

[Rick Starr]

i am thinking that i will start building the parts and pieces in basement, things like the building jig/strongback, frames, scarfed planks, etc and then assemble in the garage. that way, all the wood dust i can handle with the existing dust collection and keep the epoxy and paint fumes outside.

That is an excellent way to proceed.

I would also think anything from Chesapeake Marine Design would be a hit--easily built and driven hulls with simple rigs.

http://www.cmdboats.com/index.htm

Take for example the windward 15...

http://www.cmdboats.com/images/w15sail.gif

Although you might like the challenge of the Welsford designs like the rogue mentioned above or the navigator. Storers are good too...so many choices.

[sinneD]

i have been looking at Welsford designs. the interesting thing that I noticed from the pictures of his boats being built was that they seem to be built right side up! the methodology is interesting to me. I am checking out the yahoo lists for welsfords designs in the meantime.

i did call CMD and left a message and am waiting to hear back from them.

thanks again

dennis

[Thorne]

Welsford Yahoo group -
Subscribe: jwbuilders-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

JW's website -
http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/

[Bob Ketterling]

The Pooduck will handle two large adults when sailing but it is a tight fit for the guy in the front. There is a lot more room if you are just rowing or have the sail tied up. I think built in floatation is a good idea, I didn’t build it in but if I were to do it again I would. Having said that, I have sailed for several seasons and haven’t managed to dump it yet. The general construction of the boat is heavy enough to provide reasonable stability. The bottom is ¾ inch ply which is probably over kill as far as strength but works well.
As far as a motor, I saw a really cool design for mounting an electric trolling motor in the rudder. Above the water you can’t see any part of the motor. It is a very nice design, I joy it a lot.

[Ross Faneuf]

Which I built as a tender. It's a large tender, but extremely successful, and I've had as many as 5 adults in the boat, or (on other occasions), my wife, myself, and the all the gear and supplies for 1-week cruise.

The boat rows beautifully, and has lots of capacity, as you can see.

I've never completed the sailing rig, so can't comment on that. I hear from others that 1-2 adults is the limit for sailing, as you sit on the bottom, not the thwarts, and there isn't a lot of room.

I've also heard the comment that Joel White deliberately designed the boat to be impossible to add an outboard. you could do it with some kind of extension, but you would destroy the boat's looks, and I doubt it would power well. It's narrow aft (which is why it rows well), but would squat badly. All that bow in the air would mean poor visibility and steering. If power is part of you plan, I'd choose a different design.

The boat is a bit tender. We stand up in it all the time, particularly to board our boat, but we're careful to keep our weight toward the centerline. This is not a boat you'd try the Adirondack Guide boat trick, of standing on the gunwale.

I'm actually working on a design for myself based on the Pooduck & Shellback, as follows:

- 12 ' long - just halfway between the two
- 4 strakes intead of 3, and a harder bilge (fuller section) for more stiffness. Go to 5 strakes if necessary to get the right section.
- Slightly different stem and transom angles
- More biased towards rowing, but with dagger board and smallish rig. Goal is to assist in longer trips as tender - say, to a distant landing - not to be a primary sailing boat.