Japanese Whaling Ship on Fire

[WillW]

WELLINGTON, NEW ZEALAND — Officials warned of a potential environmental disaster in Antarctica after fire erupted Thursday on a Japanese whaling ship, leaving it crippled and drifting near penguin breeding grounds on the frozen continent's coast.

New Zealand Conservation Minister Chris Carter, whose country was leading efforts to help the stricken ship, said it was carrying 500,000 litres of heavy oil and 800,000 litres of furnace oil and was starting to list from water pumped aboard to fight the fire.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070215.wwhaling0215/BNStory/International/home

This is the ship emblazoned with the words "Research" that Greenpeace has been chasing around.

[Flying Orca]

Serves the unprintable fsckers right.

[Bruce Hooke]

This fire helps nobody, and one of the biggest casualties is likely to be the environment (as usual). With no oil spill cleanup gear anywhere nearby, any oil spill is likely to be left to do whatever damage it is going to do, and never really get cleaned up.

[TimH]

They shouldnt be out there anyway...Research my ass.

[Matt J.]

While I agree with Bruce - the damage is worse than justified by the loss of a few bastard whalers or their ship - the initial reaction is "wonderful!"

Surely there must be a way to stop whaling and shark finning besides hoping their ships sink from under them?

[rufustr]

Hope they have to come here so summons can be served.
This is from news.com.au.

A FIRE on the factory ship Nisshin Maru that may have cost a sailor's life also looks to have ended the Japanese whaling fleet's Antarctic hunt this summer, sparing more than 400 whales.
Nisshin Maru is the fleet's sole processing ship and, with the Antarctic hunt due to finish in late March, there is not enough time for it to be docked, repaired and returned.
The fleet had killed 50 per cent of its scientific whaling quota, set by Japan at a maximum 945 whales for this summer, a source at whaling company Kyodo Senpaku Company said.
If the Nisshin Maru puts in to an Australian port, its officers face being served with a summons for Kyodo Senpaku to face a Humane Society International lawsuit in the Federal Court.
The Federal Court granted the animal welfare group leave last July to take legal action against the company for hunting in an area Australia has designated a whale sanctuary, in contravention of the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act.
The factory ship is the same vessel that collided with a Sea Shepherd Conservation Society vessel harrying the whaling fleet on Monday.
It put out distress calls just after 5am yesterday and 126 crew were transferred to three other Japanese vessels, leaving about 20 aboard to fight the fire.
But 27-year-old Kazutaka Makita is missing. The Japan Fisheries Agency said last night it was unsure if he had gone overboard or remained undetected on the crippled vessel.
Japanese authorities appealed for help from the Australian and New Zealand Governments, both bitterly opposed to Japan's so-called "lethal research".
Last Friday, the fleet joined a search for two Sea Shepherd activists who went missing in an inflatable boat while harassing the Nisshin Maru, and they were rescued by a Japanese whale catcher.
The Australian understands the Nisshin Maru has suffered damage to its engines, generating system and communications gear but the owner has not decided whether it could make its own way or would need to be towed into port.
Commercial whaling is forbidden under a 20-year-old International Whaling Commission moratorium.
However, Japan uses a loophole that allows whaling for the purpose of scientific research. It sells the meat from its research - about 5300 tonnes last year - for eating.

[Tom Robb]

Karma.

[brian.cunningham]

You have to wonder if the fire wasn't set.

If it was set, bad place to do it. Right next to the breeding grounds they're trying to protect.

Best of luck ... to the wildlife.

[WillW]

I'm surprised that they had so much fuel on board, 1.3 million litres. What were they doing, running an oil tanker as well?

[Gary E]

Surely there must be a way to stop whaling and shark finning besides hoping their ships sink from under them?

Why HOPE ???

There is a better way... use one of these......
It's for sale...

http://www.maritimesales.com/images/Others/PI12-2.jpg

http://www.maritimesales.com/PI12.htm

[JimD]

Why HOPE ???

There is a better way... use one of these......
It's for sale...

http://www.maritimesales.com/images/Others/PI12-2.jpg

http://www.maritimesales.com/PI12.htm

Looks expensive. Maybe we could just rent it.

[Matt J.]

For the price of admission with the sub, we could just put some of those southeast asian pirates to better use... "why harass yotties when you can rob, steal, and destroy those buggars on the whaling and shark finning boats?"

Besides, the submarine is sold.

[seanz]

This should be interesting.If it's decided to tow the ship (and I really hope they do decide that),where do they tow it to?

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2007/02/15/Whaleshipfire__2_,0.gif
from'The Age'

Noises have been made in the media about the possible arrest of the crew after all commercial whaling is an illegal activity.
I'm sorry one of the crew died.I've got a lot of respect for commercial fishermen but right now the schadenfreude is overwhelming

[Phillip Allen]

I'm surprised that they had so much fuel on board, 1.3 million litres. What were they doing, running an oil tanker as well?


might that not be for rendering the blubber?

[Paul Pless]

If it's decided to tow the ship (and I really hope they do decide that),where do they tow it to?I can think of a few convenient iceshelves nearby where the crew could be dropped off for a while.

[rufustr]

ABC news on line.


Greenpeace says stricken whaler open to offer of help

Environmental campaigner Greenpeace says a stricken Japanese whaler off the Antarctic coast has asked its protest ship Esperanza to stay close, as fears of an ecological disaster mount.
The Japanese previously said they would not accept help from Greenpeace, describing the organisation as "eco-terrorists".
The Nisshin Maru, a whaling factory ship, has had no propulsion since a fire erupted below decks on Thursday.
The Esperanza, a former Soviet tug, is within sight of the whaler.
"We can see them now and we are here to offer any assistance they need," Greenpeace spokeswoman Karli Thomas said from Esperanza.
"As far as we are concerned the Nisshin Maru is not a whaling ship now, it is a vessel in distress."
Ms Thomas said they had been in direct contact with the Japanese skipper to assure him they were there to help.
"He received our offer and basically said yes, please stand by. They know we are here and on stand-by," she said.
There are fears 1.3 million litres of fuel could leak into the ocean if the ship founders, leading to an ecological disaster.
Ms Thomas said Esperanza was the most suitable towing ship in the area and its Dutch skipper, Frank Kamp, had 10 years' experience as a salvage skipper.
There is sufficient equipment on board to tow the whaling ship.
"The logical choice would be to the nearest port - the nearest port would be somewhere in New Zealand," she said.
Ms Thomas said conditions were reasonably calm but they were not expected to last.
"Conditions down here can be extremely hostile and the main thing is to secure the ship, make sure everyone is okay and get the ship out of the area," she said. "It is a pristine environment down here and we can't risk any damage to that."
New Zealand's Conservation Minister, Chris Carter, has said it is imperative to move the stricken ship before the existing window of fine weather closes at the end of the weekend.
The cause of the fire was not known, but authorities ruled out any connection with recent protest action by the anti-whaling group Sea Shepherd, one of whose ships collided with a whaler this week.
- AFP
http://www.greenpeace.org/raw/image_big_teaser/international/photosvideos/photos/esperanza-near-flushing-harbou (http://www.greenpeace.org/international/photosvideos/photos/esperanza-near-flushing-harbou)

[Lucky Luke]

Hope they tow theship to NZ, have it seized and re-converted never given back!), and that the crew gets a good lot of rotten tomatoes and eggs on their faces before they board..and no water iin the plane to clean themselves!

That would be enough for the crew, ...but I don t want to say what i would like to be done to the owner of the ship or to these who commercialize whale meat in Japan, Norway and Iceland (Denmark)!:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Matt J.]

Awww, Lucky. You're being too kind. I liked the idea of dumping the crew on a bergy bit for a "little while."

Bring the ship back to NZ, Aussie, or elsewhere and use its contents as evidence in the case against the people financing this as well as the government permitting it.

[seanz]

The Japanese government has instructed the captain to not accept help.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/3966286a11.html
not that they're doing anything wrong or breaking any laws you understand.
Looks like they want to use other ships from the whaling fleet for towing not the Greenpeace ship.
Can anyone explain why the Japanese government is so keen on whaling?

[Matt J.]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[seanz]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I heard that the whale meat was piling up in warehouses,it's not really selling.So why go after more?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

The strength of the pro-whaling lobby in Japan is a little strange, isn't it?

I suspect, on the basis of a little acquaintance with Norwegian whalers, that fairly extreme nationalism has a lot to do with it.

Hope they get towed to New Zealand and arrested.

Mind you, given the IWC meeting currently going on, the timing is fairly brilliant from the whales' point of view.:D

[Bob Smalser]

I suspect, on the basis of a little acquaintance with Norwegian whalers, that fairly extreme nationalism has a lot to do with it.




You mean like my local Makahs and the Canadian, Greenlandic and Alaskan Inuit whalers? How are several millennia of tradition different between aboriginals and Norwegians, Icelanders, and Japanese?

How civilized and enlightened is one group of mariners wishing harm come to another group of legitimate mariners?

[TimH]

The Makahs kill whales, then dont even eat the meat cause it tastes like crap.

[PeterSibley]

I think Andrew has it ....an expression of nationalism and the Japanese are pretty good at that ....but then they're not alone !

[Bob Smalser]

The Makahs kill whales, then dont even eat the meat cause it tastes like crap.

According to Greenpeace, you mean. I saw that article. Like much of the anti-Makah press, it was a plant.

http://www.makah.com/whaling.htm

[TimH]

According to Greenpeace, you mean. I saw that article. Like much of the anti-Makah press, it was a plant.

http://www.makah.com/whaling.htm

It was in the PI. Where the story came from I have no idea.

[Flying Orca]

You mean like my local Makahs and the Canadian, Greenlandic and Alaskan Inuit whalers? How are several millennia of tradition different between aboriginals and Norwegians, Icelanders, and Japanese?

How civilized and enlightened is one group of mariners wishing harm come to another group of legitimate mariners?

Because both species are plentiful where I've seen them hunted, I don't have a problem with a few Inuit taking a few beluga or narwhal. Bowhead, which are taken less frequently IIRC, are also in relatively decent shape. Every Inuit whale hunt I've seen or heard about involved nothing more sophisticated than half a dozen guys with small motorboats (usually freight canoes), rifles, and hand harpoons.

Commercial (or "research" :cool: ) whaling vessels with explosive harpoon guns going after great whales are a different story. The populations are still low, the economic benefit is marginal, and tradition is no excuse. Frankly, the Inuit do a better job of managing their wildlife.

[WX]

I watched some footage of Japanese whalers harpooning whales, and found it sickening. As has been said, there is no humane way to kill a large whale.

[boylesboats]

Ain't whales are protected by global laws?:confused: :confused:

[seanz]

You mean like my local Makahs and the Canadian, Greenlandic and Alaskan Inuit whalers? How are several millennia of tradition different between aboriginals and Norwegians, Icelanders, and Japanese?

How civilized and enlightened is one group of mariners wishing harm come to another group of legitimate mariners?

Well you got me stumped with that one.So,what is traditional and legitimate about Japanese whaling in the Southern Ocean.

[The Bigfella]

Funnilly enough, the Japanese insistence on hunting whales was strengthened by WW2 - meat was in short supply after '45 and whale hunting increased dramatically. Since then, they seem to want to stick it to anyone who tells them it aint so nice anymore.

[Lucky Luke]

You mean like my local Makahs and the Canadian, Greenlandic and Alaskan Inuit whalers? How are several millennia of tradition different between aboriginals and Norwegians, Icelanders, and Japanese?

How civilized and enlightened is one group of mariners wishing harm come to another group of legitimate mariners?

Bob:eek: !!!! Milleniums of tradiditon???...A few decades of murderous technology you mean!!!!

I always regard your posts with attention: they are well thougt, documented and useful. But this is not in the same range! how the hell can you say that!!!????!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

http://www.americaswhalealliance.org/Images/norway_harpoon.jpg
http://oceans.greenpeace.org/raw/image_full/en/photo-audio-video/photos/crew-of-the-japanese-whaling-s.jpg
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/images/0112/1d3c6b033d6c67e5fc61.jpeg
That is the STUPIDEST thing you ever wrote here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[George.]

I don't extend sympathy to anyone strictly on the basis of being a mariner. Pirates are mariners. Smugglers of drugs, arms, and people by sea are mariners.

Mariners that illegally destroy something that belongs to all of us, in violation of treaties that their nation signed, will elicit little sympathy from most of us. We may not wish them bodily harm, but we do hope that their misfortune results in the seizing or scrapping of their ship, and in damages to their pathetic enterprise.

[Bob Smalser]

....how the hell can you say that!!!????!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

That is the STUPIDEST thing you ever wrote here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



About modern hunting methods? Hardly.

Nobody makes or expects aboriginal hunters to use stone-tipped harpoons thrown from skin-clad kayaks anymore, either, just like they use modern methods today to take other species. Traditional hunters using the old methods lost and wasted at least three critters for every one they brought in. If you're going to hunt them, efficient methods are kinder to the species.


It was in the PI. Where the story came from I have no idea.

For wanting one, non-endangered whale to revive and ancient part of their Neah Bay culture, a tribe with a treaty dating to 1855 and never so much as a cross word with their Anglo neighbors were screwed, blued and tatooed in an astounding feeding frenzie of harassment and fabrication.

From the radical groups I can understand. But from their Seattle neighbors? Disgraceful.

I'm not promoting whaling. Quite the opposite. I'm promoting responsible behavior and fair play.

Want to slam the Japanese? Then slam the Icelanders, Norwegians and aboriginals too. Icelanders and hunting in non-native waters are arguable points, but you don't think today's Japanese have been on their islands long enough to qualify as natives with ancient native traditions?

Moreover, if you take any satisfaction in the death of some young whaling crewman, you should ask yourself just who the pirate is? And if you find you can villify the Japanese and Makah but not the Norwegians, then you might ask yourself why that is, too?

[George.]

Traditional methods also prevented "traditional" hunters from hunting species all over the globe.

The Japanese sail to my hemisphere and kill whales which never go anywhere near Japan, but that do come my way. Whales which I see, and immensely admire. Whales which my clients see, and also admire, and which are part of what draws people to my business.

They have signed a treaty, which Brazil has also signed, which makes what they are doing illegal. They keep doing it. Killing, not only their whales - in fact, whale populations that did go near Japan, and which they traditionally hunted, are all EXTINCT - but my whales. Our whales. All of us.

What gives them the right to my sympathy?

[Flying Orca]

You're not all wrong there. I've long thought (and I'd love to see it enacted in law, but good luck) that aboriginal hunters claiming traditional rights should be granted exemption from hunting regulations only if practicing pre-contact hunting techniques and technology.

In other words, if you want to hunt with the fruits of foreign science, you follow the game management principles and regulations arising from that science, too.

Regulations like this seem to make sense and would probably solve some resource conflicts, so you'll probably never see them in the real world...:rolleyes:

[George.]

And if you want to hunt or fish in international waters because you overdid it close to home, and particularly if you target species that spend part of their lives in the EEZ of third countries...

...you should respect international treaties designed to keep what you did in your home waters from happening all over the world.

[Lucky Luke]

Nobody makes or expects aboriginal hunters to use stone-tipped harpoons thrown from skin-clad kayaks anymore, either, just like they use modern methods today to take other species.
We know aboriginal hunters don t use stone tipped harpoons. So what? What does it demonstrate, but that there are now less human lifes lost for every (few) whales they kill. Fine! Half a dozen whales a year for a few thousand people. But that is not what we are talking about! We are talking about Japan [and Norway, and Denmark (= Iceland)] high tech ships and canons, not a few dozen whales killed with stone (or uranium) tipped harpoons but thousands of whales killed with satellite information and sonar detection! Get real!

For wanting one, non-endangered whale to revive and ancient part of their Neah Bay culture, a tribe with a treaty dating to 1855 and never so much as a cross word with their Anglo neighbors were screwed, blued and tatooed in an astounding feeding frenzie of harassment and fabrication.
Bob: you are defending a (almost historical) group of people who have been treated unfairly. Maybe they have. But what about the whales??? How fair is it????? We are talking thousands of whales killed vs. hundreds of people *feeling uncomfortable* about the way they have been treated...????

Want to slam the Japanese? Then slam the Icelanders, Norwegians and aboriginals too.
Yes I do! And not only do I feel reluctant buying anything made in Japan nowadays, but also from Denmark and Norway. Aboriginals: not much on the market from them....

Icelanders and hunting in non-native waters are arguable points, but you don't think today's Japanese have been on their islands long enough to qualify as natives with ancient native traditions?
Wrong as wrong can be! Bob: you are loosing your points. Not only do Japanes hunt in waters FAR away from their homeland, but WHY does the fact that some group of people have been living for whatever length of time in some area give them the right to do whatever they want to whatever lives in *their* surrounding?

Moreover, if you take any satisfaction in the death of some young whaling crewman, you should ask yourself just who the pirate is?

With rotten tomatoes and eggs...???? Not really lethal wapons unless thrown at a few hundred m/s (I leave you the odds... :you are the specialist, after all...)

[Bob Smalser]

....that aboriginal hunters claiming traditional rights should be granted exemption from hunting regulations only if practicing pre-contact hunting techniques and technology.



Around here, those treaties were hammered out in the 1850's, can't be revisited, and generally talk to quotas rather than methods. Where they do talk to methods, they encourage modern methods.

Treaty of Medicine Creek (1854) includes the following language: "The right of taking fish, at all usual and accustomed grounds and stations, is further secured to said Indians in common with all citizens of the Territory." Most of the treaties negotiated by Territorial Governor Isaac Stevens included this, or very similar, language.

Of this, Judge Boldt wrote: "By dictionary definition and as intended and used in the Indian treaties and in this decision, 'in common with' means sharing equally the opportunity to take fish ... therefore, non-treaty fishermen shall have the opportunity to take up to 50% of the harvestable number of fish ... and treaty right fishermen shall have the opportunity to take up to the same percentage."



Prior to entering into negotiations with the Makah, the United States government was well aware that our people had lived around Cape Flattery for several thousand years and that we subsisted primarily on whale, seal, and fish. They knew that we hunted whales and that we had a thriving commerce in whale oil. When the United States territorial Governor, Isaac Stevens arrived at Neah Bay in December of 1855, he entered into three days of negotiations with our leaders. They made it clear to him that while they were prepared to cede their lands to the United States, they wanted guarantees of their traditional rights on the ocean and specifically of the right to take whale. The Treaty minutes record Governor Stevens as saying to the Makahs: "The Great Father knows what whalers you are—how you go far to sea to take whale. Far from wanting to stop you, he will help you—sending implements and barrels to try the oil." Stevens presented the written treaty to the Makahs and explained, through an interpreter, that the Treaty contained an express guarantee by the United States of the right to continue to take whales. The Treaty was then accepted by the Tribe.


It remains a mixed bag. Traditional weir fishing didn't have the destructive bycatch of modern nets, but if you're going to hunt whales, it makes more sense to kill and recover one harpooned whale with a .50 caliber rifle than to maim and lose three or four for every one recovered using harpoon and lance alone.

It's also a bad assumption that responsible adults aren't at the helm of native fisheries. My two neighboring tribes taking salmon in Hood Canal, for example, employ their own fish biologists working closely with state biologists to set and enforce catch limits.

It's not a perfect world....we just continue to work at it. Just make sure your rotten tomatoes are directed equally at the Norwegians as well as the Japanese. When I see the gentlest native tribe in existence get the snot kicked out of them by neighboring urbanites whose parents were charter members of The Sons of Norway, I can only wonder at how few think past their nose.

[geeman]

I find myself agreeing with George here.The Japanese signed a "contract" agreeing NOT to hunt,they continue to do so.Thats a problem for me.
And their not hunting for NEEDED food, their hunting because they like whale meat,and hunting far from home because they have killed all the whales close to home.
They DO NOT have the RIGHT to kill outside their area as far as I am concerned.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Bob, I wonder if perhaps you misunderstood my post, earlier?

When I said, above:

The strength of the pro-whaling lobby in Japan is a little strange, isn't it?

I suspect, on the basis of a little acquaintance with Norwegian whalers, that fairly extreme nationalism has a lot to do with it.

Hope they get towed to New Zealand and arrested.

Mind you, given the IWC meeting currently going on, the timing is fairly brilliant from the whales' point of view.


I was in no way whatsoever condoning Norwegian whalers, or indeed "fairly extreme nationalism"

I don't know anything about whaling as a cultural tradition of native peoples in your part of the world, nor do I know anything about the treaties that you mention.

I do know quite a bit, possibly more than you do, about past commercial whaling in Britain, Norway and Japan and current "scientific" whaling in Japan and Norway.

There is nothing "cultural" about this whatsoever; steam whaling started rather over 100 years ago in response to demand for cheap hydrogenated fats to feed the working classes of the industrialised nations with something cheaper than butter, and demand for soap.

Think Procter and Gamble and Unilever, not "traditional customs".

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

At the end of the sixties we used to buy frozen whale as dog meat - the smell is really quite distinctive - you'd want to be very hungry indeed to eat that.

Edited to add:

There are men on that ship, and its afire.
Nil nisi bonum and all that.

[carioca1232001]

George,

Is it only the whales that the Japanese are after?

Many a small fishing community, from Rio´s Jurujuba right up to Paraíba State in the remote North East, is winding up operations due to the Japanese fleet severely depleting the local fish count.

Not enough Brazilian naval infrastructure, perhaps, to enforce the 200-mile limit ?

The Norwegians have enough whales in their waters not to need to fish elsewhere ?

Just curious.

[ewan]

and don't forget japanese foreign aid to pacific/oceania countries which is tied to fishery access. but then there are internal governance issues in the pacific which make these topics more interesting but takes them way off topic.......

[Lew Barrett]

What the Makah hunting has to do with the factory ship hunting of any nation is obscure. Civility and common sense demand not taking pleasure in the loss of the ship or lives of the crew, but as to the practice of the Japanese or Scanadanavian whalers, and comparing that to aboriginal hunting, it's simply a stretch too far.

[Bob Smalser]

What the Makah hunting has to do with the factory ship hunting of any nation is obscure. Civility and common sense demand not taking pleasure in the loss of the ship or lives of the crew, but as to the practice of the Japanese or Scandinavian whalers, and comparing that to aboriginal hunting, it's simply a stretch too far.

Not so when you consider that the level of hatred directed toward the whalers is the same, regardless of whether they are commercial or subsistence hunters.

Moreover, my distinct impression is when the whalers are some other race than white, the hatred is worse. Blind hatred in the eyes of a 20-something Sea Shepherd jet skier or a Darfur Jangaweed militiaman is remarkably the same. Such is my point with comparisons to Japanese and Norwegian whalers.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2001-07-12/news/resurrection/full

The IWC granted the Makah permission to conduct such a hunt in 1997, issuing a quota of 20 whales that could be harvested from 1998 through 2002.

The Makahs' first whale hunt in more than seven decades would have to be conducted from a canoe paddled by eight men. The Makah were required to first harpoon their target before a sharpshooter in a motorized support boat would shoot the whale in the skull with a high-powered rifle to minimize its suffering.

The IWC decision triggered a worldwide outburst from animal rights and anti-whaling groups that vowed to stop the Makah tribal hunt at any cost.

The Makah soon became the focus of a well-funded and frequently vicious anti-whaling campaign highlighted by hundreds of death threats, the blockade of the only highway into town and virtual siege of its harbor by a fleet of anti-whaling boats.

Protesters equipped with jet skis and high-powered inflatable Zodiacs accompanied by a converted Coast Guard cutter vowed to block the Makah hunt by coming between the Makah whaling canoe and any targeted gray whale. If necessary, they would sink the canoe.

Anti-whaling groups brushed aside the Makahs' claim that whaling was an essential part of their culture, dismissing it as irrelevant to modern life.

"A society can never evolve by adopting archaic and inhumane rituals," says Michael Kundu, a spokesman for the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society, which spearheaded the anti-whaling campaign.

"No legitimate argument can be made that the Makah, or any other ethnic group, can move their culture forward through ritual killing."

Protesters were largely successful in focusing media attention on a simplistic battle between anti-whaling groups portrayed as valiantly striving to prevent the needless death of gray whales versus a bloodthirsty band of savages in a ruthless pursuit of a conscious and trusting whale.

The Makahs' rich, whaling-based culture -- which is on vivid display at the Makah Cultural and Research Center that was dedicated in 1979 to house the Ozette artifacts -- was barely mentioned in the hundreds of news articles generated by the tribe's return to whaling.

The anti-whaling public relations campaign soon unleashed a wave of racism directed at the tribe, and at Northwest Indians in general, with a ferocity reminiscent of the civil rights movement of the 1960s in the Deep South.



Is it a further stretch to compare the treatment of the Makah to the Civil Rights Movement of previous decades? Perhaps, but not for one key point....sitting back and ignoring the unjust vilification of your neighbors is little different than abusing them yourself.

[Tom Galyen]

I find it strange indeed that all you "whale lovers" want to see the deaths of legitimate whaling mariners while overlooking the fact that it was the whalers who saved the lives of two of the very people who hate them the most.

It seems that the whalers are more civilized then the anti-whalers and know the customs of the sea and honor it more than the hate filled humanist, whale loving PCers I see even here.

I hope they bring their ship safely to Japan and every man Jack on board is safe.

Tom G. (Seaweed)

[Lew Barrett]

Not so when you consider that the level of hatred directed toward the whalers is the same, regardless of whether they are commercial or subsistence hunters. .

I wasn't arguing against Makah whaling but now that you mention it, are the Makah subsitence hunters?
I see it, and it has been widely described, as a return to ritual and/or tradition. Certainly, there's plenty of food around here. These are the first hunts in decades. If the Makah are hunting because they are hungry then there certainly are issues to be addressed, but presenting the Makah as subsistance hunters is not as I have seen it portrayed, and certainly, eating whale in Western Washington for lack of other suitable foods is hard to contenance.

Moreover, my distinct impression is when the whalers are some other race than white, the hatred is worse. Blind hatred in the eyes of a 20-something Sea Shepherd jet skier or a Darfur Jangaweed militiaman is remarkably the same. Such is my point with comparisons to Japanese and Norwegian whalers..

I'm happy to vilify the Faroe Islanders in equal measure, but nobody in these poages attacked the Makah in the first place. Obviously one can't speak to the motives of everyone responding, but I don't see people here objecting to Japanese (or Makah) whaling on a racial basis. To suggest that's the case is purely speculative at best, but in fact is more like throwing a red herring into the ring. The harvesting of the great whales is widely and wildly unpopular regardless who does it. To be clear, I don't get whaling either. It's not based on race, it's based on the fact that harvesting these animals is disagreeable for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that they are by and large endangered. Perhaps not the case with the Makah's grays, but then, I didn't bum rap the Makah's hunt. Not that I find it appealing behavior. Let's be clear though; it's the hunt that is unappealing. The Makah have the right, I say let them have at it then. Playing the racist card because some find the behavior disagreeable is without basis.

Edited to add: Without basis, that is, within the context of this page, not as a blanket to cover the behavior of those who may have attacked the Makah more broadly on the basis of this practice.


Is it a further stretch to compare the treatment of the Makah to the Civil Rights Movement of previous decades? Perhaps, but not for one key point....sitting back and ignoring the unjust vilification of your neighbors is little different than abusing them yourself.

No, it's not a stretch to compare their treatment when they are attacked because they are Makah. If they are criticised on the basis of being whalers, well them's the breaks. Whaling is broadly unpopular. You may agree, you may disagree, that whaling isn't nice, but then, argue about the whaling. Labeling those who find the whaler's behavior objectionable as "racists" misses the point.
Let me be clear. I won't stand up for Makah whaling because I am opposed to the behavior. I am equally opposed to attacking the Makah as savages because they whale. Logically, the Makah don't need the whales to eat. It's part of the Makah tradition. Good for them. By treaty they have every right to practice it. I don't have to like it, and I'm no racist if I don't. The Japanese and Norwegian factory whaling has nothing to do with the decision to allow the Makah to whale. A pure red herring.

[Bob Smalser]

...are the Makah subsidence hunters?
I see it, and it has been widely described, as a return to ritual and/or tradition.



Read the material first. Simple googling will show it ain't just my opinion that a big part of the basis of the hate campaign against the Makahs is racial....and racism of your own circle, not the usual Idaho crackpot flavor looked at with disdain in the Seattle papers.

"Subsistence" hunting is the only IWC category for "aboriginals", as opposed to "research" or "commercial" hunting for the Norwegians. The Makah and other local tribes here make a worthy case that the white man's biology has had more time to adapt to the processed supermarket foods that cause Native Americans to die at younger ages from diabetes, heart disease, and other health problems.

But it sounds like "aboriginals" is apparently the same thing as "savages" in Seattle parlance. That's if their tradition is whaling as opposed to selling baskets at Pike Place like "nice" indians....or later running your casinos. Cows apparently don't actually get killed to supply Seattle supermarkets when Walt Disney is your chief environmental scientist.

Either way, these tribes are your neighbors...and they've been good neighbors for 150 years. They deserve something better than your ignorance and indifference, let alone disdain and hatred.

[Lew Barrett]

What has this to do with Japanese whaling practice Bob? Are cows endangered?

[Bob Smalser]

Are cows endangered?

About as endangered as Grey Whales. And racism in Seattle.

[George.]

Funny you mention grey whales. There used to be lots of grey whales and right whales in Japanese waters. They were hunted to near extinction. In fact, they are the two most endangered whale populations in the world today. A handful left, and almost none go to Japan.

So now that they killed practically every last whale in their home waters, they want to come to my side of the world to kill my whales, and I am a racist for opposing them?

Norwegians, Icelanders, and North American Indians did not drive the whales in their home waters to near extinction. They do not kill whales far from their home waters. And they do not thumb their nose at international law. No racism - just facts.

PS: Japanese ships regularly claim to have a "sick crewman" on board in order to get permission to come into the port of Angra. They fish on the way in and on the way out - illegally, of course. They resupply while docked. And the "sick crewman" invariable turns out to be fine. It is a well known scam, and it is typical of how Japan's fishing industry operates.

I find it strange indeed that all you "whale lovers" want to see the deaths of legitimate whaling mariners ...

I believe no one has posted anything like that on this thread. What we want is to see the failure of their enterprise.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

:eek: :eek: :eek: HELLO !!!!

Since, as mariners who love the sea and the bounty it offers, how do we as a group condone the wholesale slaughter of one of the seas most beautiful creatures ?

Since when do we support a ship carrying 500,000 litres of heavy oil and 800,000 litres of furnace oil burning while in the pursuit of shooting explosive harpoons into gentle wales. WHY because its their traditional rights. PLEASE :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Let them grow some real freaking GRONICAL and climb into a skin kayak and use a traditional harpoon if they really have the BALLS to live their traditional rights. But Bob come on man a whaling factory ship carrying 500,000 litres of heavy oil and 800,000 litres of furnace oil blasting hundreds of wales is OBSCENE and it makes me sick to see you attempt to support such utter nonsense. Ewwww I just threw up a lil in mouth :(

[Matt J.]

I find it strange indeed that all you "whale lovers" want to see the deaths of legitimate whaling mariners while overlooking the fact that it was the whalers who saved the lives of two of the very people who hate them the most.

It seems that the whalers are more civilized then the anti-whalers and know the customs of the sea and honor it more than the hate filled humanist, whale loving PCers I see even here.

I hope they bring their ship safely to Japan and every man Jack on board is safe.

Tom G. (Seaweed)


Uh, Tom, the fact that they are NOT "legitimate" is the point! They're breaking laws their government agreed to abide by.

[WillW]

Like Bob Smalser, the Japanese whaling industry has sought to legitimize their operations by supporting native whaling such as the Makah. They were even providing financial assistance to the Makah.

[TimH]

These arent "legitimate whaling mariners ". What they are doing is illegal under international law. They should be stopped. doesnt matter if its the Japanese or Norwegians. The Makah are a different story and cannot be compared. Whether or not the Makahs take 5 or 10 whales a year is completely different than slaughter of hundreds of whales by one of the most modern societies in the world. They are the real "eco-terrorists"
I have been within 6 feet of a grey whale while out kayaking. These are incredibly beautiful and intelligent animals. Killing them just for dog food or cosmetics is utterly disgusting.

[George Roberts]

I believe that the Japanese are complying with the law: they are conducting research.

While the research might not be in the style we would like, it is their right to do it.

---

Change the law.

[Matt J.]

George do you mean to tell me you actually believe it's research into anything more than how long we'll sit on our asses and do nothing?

Personally? I like the older social models that permitted a realistic solution to this problem: stop them by force if talking doesn't impress them.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

These arent "legitimate whaling mariners ". What they are doing is illegal under international law. ...

Chapter and verse please.

Which law is being broken? - by whom was it enacted? and by whom might it be enforced?

A.F.A.I.C.S. They are not even in breach of their treaty obligations.

[Matt J.]

p.i.,
From Greenpeace's website:
"Japan’s Antarctic whaling programme is in violation of articles 65 and 120 of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Seas, (UNCLOS – adopted in 1982) that requires all states to co-operate with the International Whaling Commission (IWC) in the matter of whale protection. Despite repeated annual requests from the IWC to cancel the programme, Japanese whalers began hunting in the Sanctuary last November and intend to kill 440 Minke whales this year (up from 389 last year). ":

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

The IWC has a "Moratorium" on commercial whaling, - the japanese have long claimed to be doing "Scientific" whaling.

And are slowly trying to build a majority on the IWC so as to end the moratorium.

That'll make it right.

[carioca1232001]

Quoting P I Stazzer Newt:

".....That'll make it right...."

In Wales perhaps, but not anywhere else !

[Lew Barrett]

About as endangered as Grey Whales. And racism in Seattle.


Out of line, out of step and a red herring. Naming the broad lack of support for whaling racism will not not alter the general trend. I would neither stop the Makah nor support them in the effort. Not my cause, you're welcomed to it.

[TimH]

This Japanese whaling operation is in violation of many international laws and regulations, including:


• They are violating the Southern Ocean Sanctuary• They are violating the International Whaling Commission (http://www.iwcoffice.org/) (IWC) moratorium on commercial whaling. • They are targeting endangered fin and humpback whales that are protected under the Convention on IFauna and Flora (http://www.cites.org/index.html). • The Japanese whalers are also in violation of the Australian laws protecting the Australian Antarctic Territorial waters.

I dont see how anyone can think its ok to slaughter a highly intelligent creature that we dont even understand. There are some who claim that whales are more intelligent than humans. This may be true. The sperm whale brain is the largest brain to have ever evolved on the planet. It is about 9,000 cubic centimeters and weighs 7.8 kilos or 17 lbs 3 oz. The orca brain is about 5 kilos. By comparison the human brain is 1300 grams and is about 1300 cubic centimeters. All mammals from mice to men have three lobes to the brain whereas cetaceans have a fourth lobe. The convulsions on the neo-cortex area of the brain are more pronounced on cetacean brains than on humans. So overall, the brain of a sperm whale and orca are larger, and more complex than human brains.However, they don't have technology — and it is technology that humanity uses as the primary indicator of intelligence. We have essentially dismissed non-manipulative intelligences from our definition of intelligence.

killing these whales is just WRONG




http://switchboard.real.com/player/email.html?PV=6.0.12&&title=Operation%5FLeviathan%5Fvideo&link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.seashepherd.org%2Fleviathan% 2Fvideo%2FOperation%5FLeviathan%5Fvideo.wmv (http://switchboard.real.com/player/email.html?PV=6.0.12&&title=Operation%5FLeviathan%5Fvideo&link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.seashepherd.org%2Fleviathan% 2Fvideo%2FOperation%5FLeviathan%5Fvideo.wmv)

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

TimH, that really drives the point home.

I have to say I'm not as touchy feelie as environmental wackos or animal militant as PETA. I mean I love my dog, don't like cats and basically don't see the point of hunting ever. I do however enjoy a good streak, chicken, fish, whatever.

But I have to say there is just something about whales that gets me in the gut. They just seem like such noble creatures and as Tim pointed out they have massive brains. It seems more like murder to me to harm them. I know they are just animals but I don't know I guess I have a soft spot for them and I think the Whalers loose their souls hunting these majestic animals.

[TimH]

Japanese Negligence Threatens Antarctic Ecosystem

The Japanese whale processing ship Nisshin Maru caught fire on Thursday (Auckland, NZ, time) in icy waters near Antarctica.
The 8,000 ton factory ship is no stranger to negligent safety procedures. The fire that forced the evacuation of the crew of the Nisshin Maru is the second major conflagration suffered by this ship.
The last time disaster struck was November 23, 1998, when the Nisshin Maru was on the way down to Antarctica. The factory ship caught fire and sustained great damage. It was towed to New Caledonia for repairs.
The Japanese government is being irresponsible in sending a ship down to remote and hostile environments without eliminating the potential for fire. Obviously, their sprinkler systems and fire response systems are inadequate, and they have not improved their equipment or response since the last accident.
In addition to the threat posed to their own crew, the potential for environmental damage and lethal impact on wildlife is significant. The Nisshin Maru carries very large quantity of fuel. A fuel spill into the pristine waters of the region could kill whales, seals, penguins, and other marine birds and other marine species.
The Associated Press is reporting:
New Zealand Conservation Minister Chris Carter, whose country is leading efforts to help the stricken ship, said it was carrying 132,000 gallons of heavy oil and 211,000 gallons of furnace oil and was starting to list from water pumped aboard to fight the fire.

"It is a serious situation ... a ship badly damaged and full of toxic oil," Carter told National Radio.
The Nisshin Maru is a floating slaughterhouse factory and carries large volumes of ammonia used for freezing whale meat. The boilers and the machinery used to process whales present many opportunities for fire and explosions.

[Lew Barrett]

Bob,
I googled per your suggestion, and indeed there are many links, these being but a few:


The Makah Position:
http://www.makah.com/makahwhalingqa.pdf

An independent view:
http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~mmoss/makah.htm


A position against the hunt:
http://www.hsus.org/marine_mammals/marine_mammals_news/federal_appeals_court_bars_makah_tribe_from_whalin g.html

The Makah have done a good (meaning sensitive) job of explaining their position in my view, and if the google search is any indication, their position has a prominent place in the search engine.
As regards the Makah position that various diseases may result from a change in diet, specifically eating processed foods, it's my suggestion that processed foods are an equal menace to all. The cultural basis of Makah whaling is clearly indicated, if you want to refute the opposition to Makah whaling on the basis of nutritional grounds, their position statement seems to identify the cultural first, and they devote more ink to those. Probably the most compelling cultural argument to my mind is the use of whaling as a link to the past, and the unity it offers in tying youth to Makah culture as a positive benefit. Their position is well stated and I found it worth reading. I'm not familiar with how the current Makah diet varies form the traditional one, certainly it's probably nothing like the traditional diet, and I'd be inclined to think that the traditional approach would be more healthful; both for the Makah, and probably anybody else. I can't comment on the differences between Makah physiology and my own European based brand; likely there are distinctions. If those differences make it more healthful for me to eat Cheetos than for anyone else is a question in my mind.
The value of whale meat as a way of preserving traditional diet to the benefit of health is a question that I don't havethe information to argue but I still don't believe that the argument against whaling in general has at it's core a racial bias. It doesn't with me despite your firm assertions to the contrary.
When you can see into my heart, let me know.

[George Roberts]

Matt J ---

I would suggest that the laws be changed, but then military force would be needed to protect a few whales.

Military force seldom is cost effective.

---

I am not familiar with the laws referenced. (I am not even familiar with the laws allowing research.) I suspect that since they are not being enforced, the governments in charge of enforcement see no violation.

[TimH]

The law doesnt have to be changed. The law is already there.
The problem is like you said...lack of enforcement.
The Japanese started calling it research in order to sideskirt US sanctions that were imposed against them for breaking the laws on whaling.
They found a loophole to avoid the sanctions.
So I guess maybe the law should be changed to include "research". But then they will stop calling it research and start calling it something else.
But whatever they call it, its still the same.

[Oyvind Snibsoer]

...That would be enough for the crew, ...but I don t want to say what i would like to be done to the owner of the ship or to these who commercialize whale meat in Japan, Norway and Iceland (Denmark)!:mad: :mad: :mad:

Why do you keep banging on the Danes? Iceland's been totally independent of Denmark since 1944. Although Iceland does catch a limited number of mink whales, Denmark has absolutely NOTHING to do with it.

[George.]

While the research might not be in the style we would like, it is their right to do it.---



In fact, the "research" is not in the style of any bona fide scientist, anywhere - even in Japan.

You would never get a grant from any science-funding agency to carry out such "research," even if the species in question were not whales - because it is pure BS.

Of course, some people also did "research" on humans in concentration camps, humans who would be killed anyway, and actually learned something from it. Which shows that not everything that might generate some data qualifies as legitimate research.

The sort of "research" the Japs claim to do - killing hundreds of whales to get the population "data," when the only point of having such data would be to protect the same population you just decimated - is a bald-faced lie, a transparent attempt to circumvent a legal obligation. And since they sell all they kill for profit, and this profit actually funds 100% of the "research," they cannot even claim that it is non-commercial - which would be a requirement for it even to be considered as an exemption to IWC rules.

I want to do some such "research" too. I want to see how Japan's economy is affected by whaling. I suggest we start with a control - stop all Japanese whaling and see how their GNP reacts. :D

[carioca1232001]

Have they managed to stop the stricken Japanese vessel from listing further, which otherwise could lead to a massive spill of fuel in the Antartica region ?

This is not the first time that this particular vessel has had a fire on board, as has been pointed out above.

A rather poorly conceived "research" vessel for one flying the Japanese flag !

[George Roberts]

One man's loophole is another man's source of research funds.

The US has a marine preserve in the Pacific. Very soon only researchers will be allowed access.

I expect a lot of those researchers will finance their work by allowing others to visit. (Researchers will have unlimited fishing rights. No one else gets fishing rights - or even the right to visit.)

---

I expect the whale researchers fall into the above "research" class.

---

I am in favor of banning whaling. But until whaling is banned, we need to respect the rights of people to do research.

One form of research is to look at the population that is being harvested. I think most DNR's do that with deer. While I might not like their approach, other scientists use it.

[sandingblock]

As for the 'traditional' defence of this sort of thing - I'm of Anglo-Saxon stock and we used to (among other things) run around, while painted blue, worshipping rocks. We stopped doing this, why? Because it was stupid s**t.

All traditions are open for revision.

[seanz]

As for the 'traditional' defence of this sort of thing - I'm of Anglo-Saxon stock and we used to (among other things) run around, while painted blue, worshipping rocks. We stopped doing this, why? Because it was stupid s**t.


Please keep your religious beliefs to yourself.This thread is for whale lovin racists only.:p
Anyhow wasn't it the Picts that had the early Blue Man thing going on?

[Lucky Luke]

Why do you keep banging on the Danes? Iceland's been totally independent of Denmark since 1944. Although Iceland does catch a limited number of mink whales, Denmark has absolutely NOTHING to do with it.

Sorry! I thought that Denmark having, historically, ruled Iceland which although now independant has a very small population and needs many imported goods, Denmark was still very much involved in Iceland Republic s activities.

As for the(officially) *limited* number of mink whales, its a disguise similar (although effectively smaller scale) similar to japanes BS about their pretended *scientific* hunting. Hope George roberts stops believing that crap! As for Bob Smalser, that was the first time I saw him telling such nonsenses....

And THAT is NOT a mink whale!:mad: :mad: :mad:

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/ap/09da831d-093b-4fef-aa07-b0dc931ea937.h2.jpg

[seanz]

And THAT is NOT a mink whale!:mad: :mad: :mad:

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/ap/09da831d-093b-4fef-aa07-b0dc931ea937.h2.jpg

The Japanese are also 'researching' a small number of Fin Whales,perhaps that's the photo shows.
Personally I favour 'tag and release'.

[werner]

Do you own nature or are you part of it?

No one can get the rights to destroy these wild animals even if it were possible to "own" them.
Hey, that whale swims to close to japan...that must be a japanese whale, lets kill it... wait , no no ... it's one of these tourist whales from America.

And as far as so called cultural rights go beeing european and based on the hystorical facts ,I could claim the right to hunt, kill and destroy , well come to think of it.... almost everything...realy?

[George.]

One man's loophole is another man's source of research funds.

The US has a marine preserve in the Pacific. Very soon only researchers will be allowed access.

I expect a lot of those researchers will finance their work by allowing others to visit. (Researchers will have unlimited fishing rights. No one else gets fishing rights - or even the right to visit.)

---

I expect the whale researchers fall into the above "research" class.


They do not.

Unless you believe for a moment that if some "researchers" start to go to the new preserve every year, catch tens of thousands of tons of fish and sell it for profit, and produce little or nothing of valid science in the process, the reserve's managers will tolerate it.

The Japanese research is pure crap. It used to be that the only way to get accurate population data was mark-and-recapture - and "recapture" for a whale used to mean kill. But now it is done by sampling a whale's DNA, which is obtained through a dart that grabs a tiny bit of skin and doesn't harm the whale.

But perhaps Japan is such a backwards nation that it doesn't have access to this technology (hint - we do it in Brazil). Or perhaps it is that "tradition" hing again - they prefer to do their research as their ancestors did. :rolleyes:

[Lucky Luke]

The Japanese are also 'researching' a small number of Fin Whales,perhaps that's the photo shows.
.

No: this photo has been taken in Iceland...!!!
You know: these gentle vikings who take *only* 20 minke whales per year...:rolleyes:
Ooooooh, nothing else, Sir, nothing, I swear!:mad:

[Lucky Luke]

They do not.

But perhaps Japan is such a backwards nation that it doesn't have access to this technology (hint - we do it in Brazil). Or perhaps it is that "tradition" hing again - they prefer to do their research as their ancestors did. :rolleyes:

Japan is simply and still the brutal nation it has always been!

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

An old sailors’ lament of sailing in the Great Southern Ocean is that south of forty degrees there is no law, south of fifty degrees there is no god.

Does anyone here intend doing anything, or do you just like to moan and beat your breasts?.


Save the whales, Collect the entire set.

[George.]

Well, Newt, what can be done by non-Japanese takes place in the diplomatic arena. In that arena, public opinion affects both Japan's position and the position of anti-whaling nations that might apply pressure upon Japan (and others).

So we are doing something about it. We are discussing it in a public forum. If enough people take notice, and learn, as some here might have, that it is indeed illegal, that the alleged "research" has no scientific merit, and that it even directly affect many of us - whales we might see and appreciate, economic opportunities in whale watching, etc. - public opposition to such whaling will grow.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

And you think that that will be as effective as the long game the Japanese have been playing?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Not-terribly-distant ancestors, at that!

This took a bit of finding - Britain's last whale factories:


http://website.lineone.net/~d.ord/So%20Shields%20Web%20pics/Ships%20&%20Tugs/Southern%20Whalers%20Mill%20Dam.jpg
Owned by Salvesens, under contract to Unilever. Note the home port - Leith (i.e. Edinburgh)

I once served under a Master who had been second Mate on the "Harvester" in the 1950's. The catchers were Norwegian manned.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Save the whales, Collect the entire set.

I was responsible for the presence, in the Norwegian Museum of Whaling in Sandefjord (that's Gokstad if you're a Viking) of a T shirt, once very popular in Hong Kong, with the legend:

SAVE THE WHALES - HARPOON A NORWEGIAN!

[George.]

And you think that that will be as effective as the long game the Japanese have been playing?

Well, lessee. In the past thirty years or so, we managed to extend total protection (including from Japanese "research") to all but three or four great whale species. And we got the IWC to approve a moratorium on whaling. Japan keeps trying to undermine all of this, but their whaling fleet has shrunk over the decades, and the number of whales killed per year is far lower than it was back when "we" (the international conservation movement) started.

I'd say our efforts are hardly futile or short-sighted.

I'd say that it is the whales have been playing the longest game of all. And if they lose, we all lose - even the Japanese.

[George.]

PS: Andrew, I thought that was "save the whales - harpoon a fat chick". :D

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

...

I'd say our efforts are hardly futile or short-sighted.

I'd say that it is the whales have been playing the longest game of all. And if they lose, we all lose - even the Japanese.

The Independent (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article1096046.ece) last June.

Its a long game, but those in the west, who might count themselves civilised, are not really playing it seriously enough.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Spot on:

Environmentalists in Japan say the drive to end the 1986 ban is backed by a group of nationalist politicians who have invested more than £54.9m in public money since 2000 on six Caribbean nations, despite indifference at home to whaling. An internet survey released last week claimed that more than 70 per cent of Japanese people oppose a return to commercial whaling. Whale eating has been declining in Japan since the 1960s and is eaten regularly by less than 1 per cent of the population.

The government's campaign has flown largely beneath the Japanese media's radar. The conference, for instance, to which Japan sent 59 delegates - nearly five times as many as the UK - received scant coverage until the vote was announced. Conservative newspapers have since hailed the result as a victory for Japanese negotiators.

The aid question was tabled by Shokichi Kina, a member of the opposition Democratic Party. "Japanese people don't even eat whales or dolphins any more but still the government is pressing ahead," he said. "It's ridiculous to hear the fisheries ministry say stocks are increasing when nobody really knows if that's true."

[WillW]

I'm thinking that the most effective to put pressure on the Japanese would be a letter-writing campaign to Toyota, Honda, etc. They're dependent on affluent worldwide consumers worldwide, most of whom are would be violently opposed to whaling.

[TimH]

The oceans of the world were the home of big blue
He was the greatest monster that the world ever knew
And the place that he loved best
Was the waters to the west
Around the blue pacific he did roam

Big blue moved alone for a mighty blue was he
And the battles of the whales was an awesome sight to see
And he took them one by one and he drove them all away
In the mating of the day he was the king

Big blue had fifty wives and he sired forty sons
Though most of them feel victim to the cruel harpoon guns
Ah but he was too much wise to get caught by the gunners eyes
And so he lived at sea a hundred years

His mouth was as large as a tunnel so they say
His hide was thick as leather and his eyes quick and small
And his back was all scarred by the times he got away
And he knew the smell of whalers did big blue

Big blue passed away to his natural decay
Beside the arctic circle as he travelled up that way
And there never was a man who was born with a gunners hand
Who ever took a pan to big blue

Now the gray whale has run and the sperm is almost done
The finbacks and the greenland rights have all passed and gone
Theyve been taken by the men for the money they could spend
And the killing never ends, it just goes on

The oceans of the earth were the home of big blue
He was the greatest monster that the world ever knew
And the place that he loved best was the waters to the west
Around the blue pacific he did roam

-Gordon Lightfoot

[carioca1232001]

Quoting Lucky Luke:

"...Japan is simply and still the brutal nation it has always been..! "

"Simply", yes, by all means !

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

But its not so simple!

Probably (and acording to the Internet poll cited in the "Independent" article) most Japanese people think "industrial" whaling is wrong.

Japan is in some respects a slightly different sort of place, but not so very different, and the whaling lobby in Japan is just that - a lobby, consisting of a bunch of far-Right nut cases, who happen to have the ear of the governing Party thanks to, surprise surprise, their political contributions.

The solution is to campaign in Japan against the pro-whaling lobby, who are acting, not in the interest of science, or even in the interest of feeding people on whale meat, but in the interest of promoting a bit of Japanese flag-waving and defiance of the "international community" as an end in itself, and spending probably one tenth, if that, of the amount that the Japanese Government, thanks to their lobbying, is spending on buying the votes of rather small and impoverished places.

Treating "Japan Inc" as some sort of monstruous entity plays right into the hands of the pro-whaling lobby in Japan - they want Japanese people to think that all foreigners hate them!

[lagspiller]

There is a lot of bullshit here. Some amazing incompetance.

Not that it matters to any of you.... but whaling of specie that are proven not threatened is not illegal. It is no different than hunting or capturing any other form of mammal.

It is done for food. Humans are part of the natural chain. Whatever stockpiles of meat or blubber that are not being sold are due to international campaigns and acceptance of restrictions on sale of whale until it is deemed legal.

Hunting mink whales is no more and no less brutal than any other form of killing animals for food.

People with little or no connection to the sea or marine research believe a whale is a whale is a whale. That is not so. Whales are as different as pigs and chimpanse.

The present campaign against small industry within sustainable harvest quotas is a multi-million dollar industry. It is a battle between david and goliath, waged on a world wide stage. Scientists and small time fishermen on one side... big capital, prestige and people living far from primary industry.

Otherwise the INTERNATIONAL WHALING COMMISSION, with it's huge anti-whaling element would never approbate hunting of qutoas of mink whale. It is PC incorrect - but is good animal husbandry. It is NOT illegal. Despite continual false information. Numbers, sustainable development and humane methods have been continually researched for more than 15 years. In the end, it was not possible for the IWC to continue to ban mink whale hunting. There was no scientific basis - and it had to be allowed if the IWC was to retain any scientific integrity at all.

That of course is not acceptibale to those who do not care for science and whales. If all whaling is bad - then it doesn't matter.
If you believe that - then be honest. IT is a far more honerable attituce than all the posturing about whales and whaling.
PC people piss me off to no end.

Want something really impossible to defend ethically???
Catch and release.
Playing with pain and torturing animals for no other reason than 'having fun' is deplorable. Disgusting.
If you catch it... EAT IT.
Otherwise, DON'T.

[TimH]

save a whale, harpoon a what?

[George.]

Not that it matters to any of you.... but whaling of specie that are proven not threatened is not illegal.

Norway's whaling may not be, technically. Japan's is.


It is no different than hunting or capturing any other form of mammal.


It is. No other mammal is hunted or captured in international waters, or even the EEZ of nations that oppose such hunting.

And all fish and game species that migrate between the territorry of different sovereign states are treated differently than ordinary hunting or fishing of local species. All affected states have a legitimate stake in their management. And restricting uses to non-lethal ones is legitimate and sound management of species with small populations and low reproductive rates.


The present campaign against small industry within sustainable harvest quotas is a multi-million dollar industry.

Tell us how "sustainable" is this "small industry," which suceeded in driving every species it ever targeted to commercial extinction, and nearly to biological extinction. Northern right whales, southern right whales, blue whales, grey whales, humpback whales... none have fully recovered from IWC "management," although they have been protected for decades.

Sustainable, my ass. :mad:

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I was in no way whatsoever condoning Norwegian whalers.....There is nothing "cultural" about this whatsoever; steam whaling started rather over 100 years ago in response to demand for cheap hydrogenated fats to feed the working classes of the industrialised nations with something cheaper than butter, and demand for soap.

Think Procter and Gamble and Unilever, not "traditional customs".

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Well, I certainly hope Bob Smalser supports all the aboriginal land claims in the USA... That would certainly be fair play as well.

[George.]

The first species targeted by this "sustainable small industry" - modern industrial whaling - was the blue whale. The harpoon gun and catcher boat were designed specifically to get them.

At the peak of hunting in the 1930s, whalers were killing about 30,000 a year in Antarctica.

Mind you, that's maybe three million tons of whale a year being killed and processed by this "small" industry. And that is just one species.

By 1960, they had to stop hunting blue whales - there were almost none left. Today, over forty years later, there still are almost none left - less than 1% of the original population. Thanks to this "sustainable" industry, most of us have never seen a blue whale - once one of the most common whales - and most of our children will probably never see one.

[TimH]

For a while they (Blues) were declared extinct. but then people started seeing them again. Their new emminent danger is not whalers, but the effects of climate change. Of course climate change is ominous for all species...exept of course humans. We are immune to environmental things.

[Tom Robb]

Arguments about commercial sustainability and aboriginal rights are BS.
Ought I claim my aboriginal Scottish right to kill Englishmen, or perhaps just the Campbells?
Arguments as to the beauty and wonder of the great beasts are beside the point.
Given the brain size of whales, it seems likely that they are intellegent, if perhaps in a way differing from how our alleged intellegence operates. That makes killing them, for any reason, as immoral as killing chimps, and gorrillas, or our fellow human beings.
If there are other intellegent beings in the universe, I'd advise them to stay clear of planet Earth. We'd harvest them for their meat,for cosmetics, and for fertilizer.
God, when are we ever going to grow up?

[Lew Barrett]

I was conciliatory under the circumstances of the attack regarding racism. I'm gratified to see that the general opinion here is to view such labeling as hogwash.

[George.]

There is a bay near my home called Baia da Ribeira. Its mouth is blocked by a large island, so its waters are calm. We always sail through it on the way to Paraty.

Back in the late 18th century, an official from Rio was taken to Paraty by boat, and they went outside the bay. He asked why, as this passage was longer and crossed a wicked winter swell.

He was told that going inside was much riskier, because there were so many whales with calves (Southern right whales) that boats could not keep a straight course without running into them. He recorded this in his official report.

This bay is perhaps five miles across. It used to be literally choked full of whales. Today, if you dive there near the main whaling beach, the sea bottom is covered in right whale vertebrae.

No whales have been seen there for nearly a hundred years.

[carioca1232001]

So was Guanbara Bay in Rio de Janeiro packed with whales.

Some of the earlier posts on this subject may have smacked of " I am an Anglo-phile who knows it better than all ..." at least for those not so accustomed to decipher such written sentiment.

This may have triggered off references to aboriginal peoples, noble as they are, who of all on this planet, have had the distinction to give nature it s due

That could have tken some notewirthy people off balance

[Tom Robb]

Noting that aboriginal status does not automatically confer sainthood is not racism. Noble Savage notions are only tarted up Noblise Oblige.
We are all human and all subject to the same faults and failings. In these things one's ancestry matters not at all.
Some years ago I was surprised to learn that North American First Nations folks were in the habit of driving entire herds of bison off cliffs in order to harvest them, and one may well wonder at the nearly overnight demise of most of the megafauna in N. America coinciding with our arrival from Asia. Of course it took modern railroads and rifles to complete that grisly task.
Mere coincidence perhaps.
I wonder too if aboriginal cannibals ought to be encouraged to resume their harvest of long pig. It was religious after all, and culture trumps reason does it not?
Playing the race card is an underhanded attempt to short circuit debate.

[werner]

an interesting idea
if the non Whaling nations would claim their part of the estimated living whales per species these would become their property and hunting these would be theft.If the whaling nations killed their part wich they ,i assume they have long since done, they can hardly even put a claim on the offspring of other people "livestock" So lets all buy a Whale only problem would be who are we gooing to pay ?
It has become in my idea a very primitive point of view to think that if you kill a free animal at that moment it becomes your property just because it belonged to no one or for that mather to everyone.
the cultural "right" to hunt a certain quota of endangered species could be tollerated but I am afraid most of these activities belong to the folklorej ust the memory of a life style long gone. and are not needed no more to keep those culture alive

[carioca1232001]

Quoting Tom Robb

"Playing the race card is an underhanded attempt to short circuit debate."

In the context of a 2-way street, yes !

[Lucky Luke]

But its not so simple!

Probably (and acording to the Internet poll cited in the "Independent" article) most Japanese people think "industrial" whaling is wrong.

Japan is in some respects a slightly different sort of place, but not so very different, and the whaling lobby in Japan is just that - a lobby, consisting of a bunch of far-Right nut cases, who happen to have the ear of the governing Party thanks to, surprise surprise, their political contributions.

The solution is to campaign in Japan against the pro-whaling lobby, who are acting, not in the interest of science, or even in the interest of feeding people on whale meat, but in the interest of promoting a bit of Japanese flag-waving and defiance of the "international community" as an end in itself, and spending probably one tenth, if that, of the amount that the Japanese Government, thanks to their lobbying, is spending on buying the votes of rather small and impoverished places.

Treating "Japan Inc" as some sort of monstruous entity plays right into the hands of the pro-whaling lobby in Japan - they want Japanese people to think that all foreigners hate them!

OK, Andrew: not that simple!

We know that the ulrtra- nationalist Japanese groups are happy to see the western world bullying Japan, as it gives then a point for their isolationnist aspirations.

We also know that the young people of Japan are against whaling.

We also know that the traditionnal Japanese culture is extremely harsh and - I dare say - brutal. No matter how all the *samurai* films may have made it a glorious legend!

But , to be realistic, campaigning in Japan against whaling would be VERY dificult for foreigners, although Japanese (at least the young ones), are VERY sensitive about world opinion on their country. They know that they carry the burden of many not very bright moments in their history, and they feel embarassed about it. And the young ones do not want to live as their parents, whether as servants of a conglomerate or of a war lord. They want to join the international community.

So, showing an international blame of the whaling companies will have (some) efficiency.

[Lucky Luke]

There is a lot of bullshit here. Some amazing incompetance.
What follows from you does not show extremely high competence!

Not that it matters to any of you.... but whaling of specie that are proven not threatened is not illegal. It is no different than hunting or capturing any other form of mammal.

It is done for food. Humans are part of the natural chain. Whatever stockpiles of meat or blubber that are not being sold are due to international campaigns and acceptance of restrictions on sale of whale until it is deemed legal.
The *legality* of it is NOT the point. You see whales as just a big chunk of meat, *we* see them differently.

People with little or no connection to the sea or marine research believe a whale is a whale is a whale. That is not so. Whales are as different as pigs and chimpanse.
That is where you show your incompetence!

.....but is good animal husbandry....
Animal husbandry!!!:eek: THAT disgusts me!!!!!

That of course is not acceptibale to those who do not care for science and whales.
*science and whales!*: In your case, that does not relate very well!
If all whaling is bad - then it doesn't matter.
If you believe that - then be honest.
Yes: ALL whaling is bad! Just plain bad! Somewhere a line has to be drawn: *we* do not eat human babies, nor gorillas, nor beautiful parrots, neither whales. They are just too noble creatures NO, NO, and NO!!!! Got it?:mad: :mad: :mad:

Want something really impossible to defend ethically???
Catch and release.
Playing with pain and torturing animals for no other reason than 'having fun' is deplorable. Disgusting.
If you catch it... EAT IT.
Otherwise, DON'T.

At least, THAT: I agree upon!!!!

[George.]

Many things can be effective besides campaigning in Japan, which is certainly important.

One project we are involved with begins by measuring the economic value of whale watching in areas where they have come back (Santa Catarina, Bahia), as well as estimating the lost potential income due to whale populations being locally extinct (Rio, Sao Paulo).

In this way, we can demonstrate that Brazil produces more income from using these whales than Antarctic whalers would. We can also show that killing these whales while they are in international waters imposes a direct cost to the Brazilian whale watching industry, and prevents it from expanding.

But more important, in the diplomatic arena, Brazil is building a case for "claiming" these whale populations for our whale watching industry in the context of the IWC and other treaty frameworks - just like other countries claim the right to let their whalers harvest them.

It is a slow process, involving biology, economics, and diplomacy. Maintaining public support for it - and thus ensuring that it will remain the official position of the Brazilian government at the IWC - is absolutely critical.

That is the point of threads like this, among other things that keep the issue of whaling in the public's consciousness. Like Newt said, it is a long run thing...

[Lucky Luke]

George,

You may be right in insisting on the positive economical aspect of condeming whale hunting. If it stops, or even limits it, hurrah!

But how ugly is it to consider the economics as the ONLY rightful, meaningful value? How can YOU?

Just as some of you discussing the *legal* or *more or less legal*, or *totally illegal*...blah blah blah... Whose law anyway? the strongest? the greediest? Also does the hunting of these marvelous creatures, whether it is the small minke or the giant rorqual only has to be considered on the sustainability of the specie?
Can t we draw a line based on higher values than: *how much do I have left in the bank*?

That makes killing them, for any reason, as immoral as killing chimps, and gorrillas, or our fellow human beings.
If there are other intellegent beings in the universe, I'd advise them to stay clear of planet Earth. We'd harvest them for their meat, for cosmetics, and for fertilizer.
God, when are we ever going to grow up?

[George.]

Luke: think of me as a cynical but effective lawyer. I completely empathize with my client. I know he deserves to win the case by any moral or ethical standard. But I am practicing law, and need to find a legal reasoning to state his case, or he will lose.

I don't care if I have to make economic arguments to convince people of things that they should understand through philosophical reflection. I am far past believing that the majority of people has the time or inclination for that.

PS: the economic argument is not ethically neutral. The only reason whale watching generates money is because people assign existence value to whales. Nothing else explains the money, time, and often discomfort that people exchange for a brief glimpse of a spout and a tail fin. And yet it is undeniable that people do find utility in it - they pay for it with money and precious vacation time.

[Lucky Luke]

George: as I said: if it stops or even limits it: hurrah!

But still...:(

[TimH]

if the rest of the world makes whaling unpleasant for the people doing the whaling, they will stop.

[George.]

You work with the laws and treaties you have, not the ones you wish you had.

[Lucky Luke]

You work with the laws and treaties you have, not the ones you wish you had.

Sorry my dear George! You do not ONLY work with the laws and treaties you have, otherwise we would still be in the stone ages, ruled by Mr. Big Fist (....although, admitedly, it has not changed that much:rolleyes: )

News laws are created daily because people wished they had them.

Then, although I admit that laws are the fundament of democracy, when legal actions are not possible, because laws are just too long to come (or still under the rule of Mr. Big Fist), or not yet percieved as necesary, illegal action must sometimes be taken. One, of course, should be extremely precautionous before doing this, because this is the open door to fanatism, or to easy excuses.

I do not always approve Greenpeace actions, which are often pure propaganda for themselves, but when they take a collision route with a whaler (this, I approve!:) ), it s illegal. When I once boarded a boat and took a gun fitted with a harpoon (for dolphin *fun* hunting) and threw it in the water, and then pulled out my knife with the determined intention to use it if they wanted to engage in a fight , it s VERY illegal....but they probably did not kill many other dolphins that summer;)

Of course, I much approve actions like yours, wanting to stay in pure legality, and exposing the economic benefits of whale preservation. Anything (or almost anything, excepted killing people, but eventually wounding them...although better with rotten tomatoes and eggs...) that would save even ONE whale, I do approve:)

Though, essential discussion remains whether, on the long run, it is sticking strictly to existing legality of forcing it that will be the more efficient. I personally think both methods have to co-exist.

[TimH]

GreenPeace has become more "politically correct".
The ones taking things into their own hands these days is the sea sheperds.

http://www.seashepherd.org/news/media_070217_1.html

[py]

I choose to drive an English car rather than a Japanese one, partly due to my abhorrence of whaling. Now that's putting my money where my mouth is, every single time the bloody thing breaks down!

[rufustr]

TimH thanks for that link.

[seanz]

Looks like the show is over:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/2/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10425690
The engines have been restarted.As yet no decision has been made regarding the resumption of whaling this season.

[TimH]

Nice...
"Mr Innwood hinted that it was likely they would stay and carry on whaling"

[George.]

And we will go on opposing them, and containing the damage.

Someday they will listen to their children...

[TimH]

Sometimes there is only one thing these people understand...

Good job Sea Sheperds;)

This year's protests, led by the Sea Shepherd group, were particularly heated.
Japanese officials on Tuesday showed videos of protesters aboard a Sea Shepherd ship - flying a skull-and-crossbones pirate flag - launching smoke canisters, throwing containers filled with chemicals, and dropping ropes and nets to try to entangle the ships' propellors.
One video also showed a protest ship ramming a whaling vessel.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1104AP_Japan_Whaling_Ship.html


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1106AP_whale_pirate.html

[BrianW]

An old sailors’ lament of sailing in the Great Southern Ocean is that

south of forty degrees there is no law, south of fifty degrees there is no god.



Does that work to the north, as well as the south?

[George.]

No. North is North and South is South, and the gods never travel between them.