ssb antenna

[SV Papillon]

Any ideas for rigging a semi permanent anntena on a Marconi main gaff foresail schooner. Preferably something that could be left in place under way. Had limited luck with the insulated backstay approach, not sure if there are better ways to go without making the boat look like a space ship

Thanks

Jake

[chuckm]

Have you ever heard of an Inverted V antenna? It might be what your looking for. If you have tuner with your radio you could tune to different bands if necessary. If not The Inverted V Antenna is cut to a specific Frequency. Are you a Ham Radio Operator? If your not, you also might think about getting your license. The FCC has dropped the Morse Code requirment and all you need to due is study theory. Due a Search for inverted v type antennas. I think alot of people that are hams with sailboats operate these type antennas.

These antennas are simple to build. Buy a Simple 100', 50' or 25' extension cord (depending on what freq your going to operate on) Longer is better if you have a tuner. Strip the extension cord for its wire. There is a formula to use to calculate length depending on operation Frequency. Build a feed point that has to legs and a connector for the coax (I build mine out of PVC) Attach your wire to each leg and your coax to the connector (usually SO-239 i beleive) hoist the feed point on the center mast of your boat and tie one end off to the fornt of the boat and the other off at the rear (Not a sailor I don't know proper boat terms sorry) And there you have it. The only limitation is the length of your boat and the heigth of your mast. This may dictate what size inverted v you can use.

[Tom Robb]

It's been a very long time since I've given a hoot about this, but SSB doesn't care about the sort of antenna one uses. The frequency band does. Antennas come in all sorts of sizes and styles, some omnidirectional, some highly directional. Some claim some sort of "gain." There's no gain from an antenna. The supposed "gain" is signal strength over and above some minimal omnidirectional antenna.
In the Air Force, back in the early 60s, we worked the 10 meter band w/ SSB and used everything from beams to rhomboids. It depended on how much space was available and what the budget supported.
Since you don't know where the station you want to communicate with is, and omnidirectional antenna like a whip at the top of the mast would be useful. Matching the transmitter output impedence to the impedence of the antenna is a must.
Were I you, I'd get a comm. expert to devise a system for your app.
What Chuck said probably would work, but at sea, I'd opt for something less cobbled up, high school science fair-ish, and go for a system rather more likely to survive the elements in better shape.
BTW, communications via radio is often a matter of luck. Our expensive radios, lengthy training and constant maintenance was subject to atmospheric conditions, cooperative sun spots, and who knows what other unknown variables, and we were not at sea sprayed with corrosive salt water on a pitching, yawing, rolling ship.
If you want something you can count on, become a competent seaman, take good care of your boat, and be careful. Even then it's good to be lucky.

[paladin]

What kind of SSB....are you using a tuner....is the tuner automatic.....and the best antenna in the world ain't no good if you don't have a damn good counterpoise.....sorta a "ground" to most folks, but it goes beyond that.....and I talked all over the world with 35 watts from a sailboat and from southeast asia......most commercial SSB's are around 150 watts...

[chuckm]

Were I you, I'd get a comm. expert to devise a system for your app.

What Chuck said probably would work, but at sea, I'd opt for something less cobbled up, high school science fair-ish, and go for a system rather more likely to survive the elements in better shape.

BTW, communications via radio is often a matter of luck. Our expensive radios, lengthy training and constant maintenance was subject to atmospheric conditions, cooperative sun spots, and who knows what other unknown variables, and we were not at sea sprayed with corrosive salt water on a pitching, yawing, rolling ship.

If you want something you can count on, become a competent seaman, take good care of your boat, and be careful. Even then it's good to be lucky.

Before I comment on anything let me first start off and say this is not Chuck, I am his co-worker. I am a liciensed Amateur Radio operator call sign KC5YZD.

Anything at sea could, would and might be a matter of luck. After all you are at sea. Even in your last paragraph you comment on how good it is to be lucky. I am not a seaman but I do build, operate and play with Amateur Radio like yall do boats. The invertered v is not a cobbled or High School Farish antenna. It is a very basic and simple design that has been around for ages. I personally know of several people that Sail that use that set up. I tried to keep my answer very simple as I did not know his background with radio. Like with anything else I could give a million different scenarios on what antenna could do what, physics of it, formulas and on and on. But a whip design is not going to work without and equal ground or couterpoise. You dont have the space for a beam antenna. your best bet would be a inverted V it would be unoticable and very unobtrusive. I am sure 47 years ago in the air force it might have been different and I have no idea what they taught you. But I do know what I am operating have operated and seen operated on land and sea. there is not going to be any fool proof communciaton system at sea. Even Satallite phones fail to operarte or get a signal.

[Tom Robb]

Well, he sounds like he doesn't want to look like Roger Ramjet, and yes, a groundplane helps a lot. Still I'd not be making my antenna system from scratch if I planned to go to sea and just maybe my life and safety depended on it. But that's me. I'd buy off the shelf sea proven stuff before I made one from extension cord. You or others may do as it pleases you to do and don't need my aproval.
BTW, I didn't recomend a beam, much less a massive full wave rombic suitable only/mostly for fixed sites' comm. And 47 years ago our stone age radios were seen to be state of the art. I'm sure the art has moved forward some since the Cold War.

[paladin]

An inverted "V" on a sailboat is not practical.....end fed arrays are practical, and I still have an SB-34 ssb that I used 40 years ago on a 27 foot plywood boat, which I did sail around the world....The second trip around I used a pair of Collins KWM-2A's, and more recently completed the third circumnavigation with a pair of ICOM 735's, all with either manual or automatic tuners, all using end fed long wires to the top of the mast......but the antenna is only HALF the system.....and does not work worth a doodle if the counterpoise isn't there...so the antenna tuner will constantly hunt, never finding resonance......My call sign during those years was K5LMA, HS3AJH, WA4QGG and 2A2TZ...presently N4EZV. You'll find me in the call book and the old handbooks under spread spectrum, AMRAD, and a few books on the subject....and before retiring owned 4 of the largest aviation and marine electronics installation/repair shops in southeast asia...

[Mike Keers]

Pap,
What do you mean by 'limited success' with the insulated backstay? It's a pretty standard method on many sailboats. I had one on my 29 and talked all over the world. That was an Icom 710 with the 130 automatic tuner. The boat came with big ugly brown high-wire type insulators installed with Nicopress sleeves. I put a new backstay on, and had the sleeker 'storebought' long type installed. Did the installation all myself per Gordon West and a book or two, and couldn't have asked for better performance.

As Chuck has said several times, your ground plane or counterpoise is just as important as the antenna, since in effect it's the other half of it. Those bronze ground plates aren't really enough, I had about 100' of copper foil in the bilge, plus I grounded to the 4500 pounds of lead in the keel. I was talking to Tahiti from Mexico and they said I was blowing them away.

SSB can be pretty hit or miss, the propagation can be all over the place.

[paladin]

additionally.....you may need a MUF chart (maximum Usable Frequency) available through several sources and the American radio relay league......it will tell you what frequency band to use near your particular location during a particular hour of the day...and what works best during a particular month....based on sunspot cycles....I have had conversations with the east coast of the U.S. from the Indian ocean and California from the Black Sea. If you have a SWR meter to check the forward transmit power between your antenna and transmitter, it may also give you a reflected power reading to tell you how inefficient your antenna is.....it could be corroded wires, bad connections, no counterpoise.....you have to check lotsa things...

[kc8pql]

Had limited luck with the insulated backstay approach,

HF radio isn't plug and play. As others have said, if your not getting good results with your backstay there's something wrong with your installation or as Chuck said, you may just be on the wrong frequency for the propagation at the time.

[paladin]

give me some details and I'll try to help......need the assets and details...:D

[MAGIC's Craig]

To go back to your original question: We use the starboard upper foremast shroud on MAGIC (topmast shroud? Do not have a topmast though) with the lower insulator about 6 ' above deck and the upper about 12" below the upper mast band. The antenna "bends" at the spreader. We use an "auto-tuner" (SGC) located directly belowdecks from the antenna feed. Copper strapping in the bilge to the big metal bits and then up to the tuner (there is also a strap under the deck from tuner to transceiver (currently a Kenwood). The senior Ham aboard (KO6XK) tells me that she gets through well and clear. If you look carefully in this image, you can make out the insulators.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid166/pd22c5137600ca5c20fa72e3392a485cb/f4582906.jpg

I do agree that if you are not comfortable working the antenna/radio installation design stuff, a pro can be worth the dollars to get a sound installation. (Sorry about that! ;))

Cheers,

Craig and Vicky Johnsen

[chuckm]

Actually the Extension cord Idea was just a suggestion. If you dont have enough common sense to build your own Antenna for Marine use out of marine grade material well, then maybe your right. Just go buy it. But hmmm lets see amateur radio is about building your own or at least thats what I was taught about its origins. Seems like no matter what you do to try and help people there is always someone that wants to shoot you down. I am bowing out on this. I don't want to mar chucks sign on or his name.

Dustin KC5YZD

[Tom Robb]

Dustin,
If your SSB radio is for the fun of working interesting people over long distances from remote parts of the planet, I'd say go for it. Use any sort of equipment you can beg, borrow, scroung or make from coffee cans and safety pins. More power to ya. I'm sure Hams have scratch built some wonderful stuff that any commercial manufacturer would be proud of.
While I don't watch what y'all are up to much these days, I've noted that the Hams I am aware of use commercial gear,not home made stuff.
My perspective is/was military. We had different goals, but even so, I've spent a number of happy hours assembling the old Heathkit stuff just so I could avoid spending too much money and for the pride of it. Still, it wasn't scratch built, so big deal. Your scratch built gear was probably more pride worthy.
My responses presupposed that the guy wants a radio for non entertainment uses.
We can differ in our opinions without making it personally insulting.
Sorry if you felt attacked personally. I just have a different perspective.
Tom

[SV Papillon]

Hello All,

Thanks for the input, had to go to work up north and missed the replies , so I'm a bit late here. Craig, using a shroud seems to be a good way for a long wire, I've seen a couple older boats rigged like this since posting. I wasn't sure if it made a difference having the angle that acute.

As to the planned instillation I am planning on putting in a Furuno FS1503 with a auto tuner, use it on the boats in AK. We had one on our last boat and were pretty happy with it. For a ground plane I was going to put in a dyno plate or tie the ground to a couple keel bolts. I went round and round on our last boat trying to figure out the grounding, as we had lots of advise on how to set it up, I ended up hooking the strap to the rudder quadrant and it worked fine.

My wife and I have technician licenses and will get our generals when time allows. Even if it doesn't always work I like having the ssb to keep in touch with friends and fam. low tech and free is nice.

thanks again for the input

Jake

[paladin]

Jake...I would check out the upgrade to general since the written exams are the same and the code has been eliminated......and a couple of keel bolts may get you some rf burns when the autotuner can't find the counterpoise....it will make the radio chassis hot...

[kc8pql]

.....and a couple of keel boats may get you some rf burns when the autotuner can't find the counterpoise....it will make the radio chassis hot...

Agreed. A couple of keel bolts and a DynaPlate is a pretty poor groundplane. It will work but you'll get much better results if you add some foil or radials.

[paladin]

My apologies....just use some copper screen or bronze screen as much as you can tack around inside the boat, solder all the edges to make a continuous piece as corrosion will cause the strands to separate...or use a lot of copper foil, all soldered at one place and use that point as the attachement point for the counterpoise (ground)..

[SV Papillon]

My apologies....just use some copper screen or bronze screen as much as you can tack around inside the boat, solder all the edges to make a continuous piece as corrosion will cause the strands to separate...or use a lot of copper foil, all soldered at one place and use that point as the attachement point for the counterpoise (ground)..

Can you give a little more detail on the RF burn etc?? I have a cast Iron keel, should I leave it out of the ground? We are definately looking into the General after the post from Chuckm, I think, said they dumped the morse requirement. When we got our technicians my wife passed the general too after about a day of cramming. We lost all the paper work in the boat to house to boat shuffle so we will start fresh with two new generals. There is plenty of room to put down copper. interior (http://picasaweb.google.com/svpapillon/CabinTop/photo#5052383081674617218)

Jake

[paladin]

a quarter wave vertical antenna, end fed, must have a "refelctive" counterpart....which some folks erroneously call a ground....in fact it must be a electrical image of the antenna. If the tuner cannot see this reflection, it will seek the closest possible balance point, which actually leaves the antenna unbalanced and the reflective rf energy is roughly equal to that radiated......and if your hands are touching the "ground"....of which one wire in the mike is attached...you may feel a little "bite" or burn....which the intensity of which is proportional to your transmit power.......the difference being that the burn will be like a microwave burn, from the inside out...a tiny little burn in your hand will actually be a burn all the way through, and will become much more noticeable as the days go by.......I have the scars to prove it.....

[John B]

Chuck, I've inherited an ssb with this new boat. It seems very well ( professionally)set up, has the aerials and a box that says automatic tuner etc.
The only problem really is that I have no idea what its for.
Well, I know its a radio for 'offshore' because it has better range but for a non communicative ( radio) type , whats the primary reason for it? Can you get weather reports and the like or is it mainly for distress... or is it for just chatting?

[paladin]

John...write down all the information that you can find on the radio and tuner, send to me by private e-mail...and with your snail mail/e-mail address...I'll check all data and send back the recommended hook-up for you.....also describe the boat that you intend to put it in, especially the rigging...

[John B]

Its all in Chuck. Its in my ketch and If I turn it on it goes on.:eek:
My question is really an ssb 101 I guess. I have no idea how to use it . I can find out , maybe I'll need to do a course but I thought I'd ask the gurus here first.:D
Never been a ham, never used the vhf except for forecasts ,so I just don't know anything about it.

[paladin]

give me the make and model number and I may have an instruction manual...

[Tom Robb]

It's a 2-way radio. You talk to other other people with similar SSB radios.
SSb simply puts all of your available output power into one sideband of the signal more or less effectively doubling your power output. Ordinary, less fancy, radios put the power in both sidebands.
Is that what you were asking?
The engineering minds here can no doubt give a more accurate explanation.

[paladin]

I think he was looking for info on what could be found on the different "channels", who was there to listen and talk to...maybe....

[kc8pql]

but for a non communicative ( radio) type , whats the primary reason for it? Can you get weather reports and the like or is it mainly for distress... or is it for just chatting?

Yes, you can receive voice weather reports from various agencies and nets, time signals for navigation and solar information to predict radio propagation from WWV . With computer and a simple interface you can receive weather fax charts. Add a Pactor TNC and you can send and receive email and download computer modeled weather and sea state charts for any location at any time.

[John B]

Thanks for that. There is something else on the boat. Some sort of wire connection dohickey that has weatherfax written on it. I'll take a photo of it and perhaps someone can tell me actually what it connects to. If its a laptop to ssb connection that would make some sense.

[paladin]

Just invite a well experienced ham out for a sail...and by the time you get back, you should know how to do it all...but do you have a shipboard license?????:D

[John B]

I actually do have a radio licence. I got that about 15 or 20 years ago. I have no idea what else I need if anything for ssb. Honestly, I haven't really even looked at the electronics much yet. I've been learning about
docking a 12 '6"ft wide boat at night, or in 30 knots and why it doesn't turn like I'm used to.
setting a mizzen spinnaker
setting an 850 or 900 ft gennaker
sailing a ketch in general
running an 80 hp turbo diesel engine
how it ( the boat)stores and feeds diesel to the engine
how on earth( no pun intended) this thing runs and maintains 5 batteries
how the water system works.
how a self tailing winch works ( never had one before) and why it ate my sheet with a sail set on it.

oh, and where the rum is kept.:D

[SV Papillon]

Hey John

Try tuning one of these in


Tony's Net. New Zealand (ZL1ATE). Position reports from South Pacific & Australia region (weather contact vk9ja). 14.315Mhz @ 2100hrs zulu.
Russell Radio. (SSB) New Zealand. Covers Bora Bora to Australia. 12.359Mhz @ 0830hrs & 1630hrs zulu.
There are probably alot more in your neck of the woods.
In my basic understanding, read, much room for error:)
All radios use a portion of the radio spectrum. All of the radio spectrum is spoken for by someone or thing.
VHF or very high frequency is effective at line of sight, essentially it works as long as the two stations are within the same horizon or close to that, about 25-30 miles usually, longer on coastal towers etc. I got noaa weather 70 miles off the california coast. In AK we sometimes pick up AIS, automated identification system, signals from boats on really calm days 90 miles away, these are broadcast via VHF. Soooo VHF is rather effective as a marine radio for most uses. Two meter radios are somewhat similar and you may see people using them, work boat guys use them around hear. But that is something else, anyway.
A marine SSB is made specifically for a marine environment and in my limited experience comes set up to utilize the marine single side bands, in other words you can only access portions of the radio spectrum that are allocated to marine side band use. On some frequencies you can talk or listen "transmit & receive", on others you can only receive or listen. Ham radios are able to access many more frequencies. There are specific frequencies set aside for amature radio use with their own restrictions. Some marine ssb's are capable of being unlocked and operating as a Ham radio. To use the amature radio frequencies you have to have a ham radio license. If you googled "amature radio class Auckland" you would probably find one being held nearby. Different licenses allow different privileges and access.
For practical purposes you can think of the ssb on your boat as being used for things within hundreds of miles rather than tens of miles. For example your sailing to some where and you want to know what the weather is like so you call your buddy who you happen to know is there and find out. They would have to be listening of course which takes some setting up. There are nets too where people sometimes listen for wx, gossip and all things nautical, think :) woodboat forum on the radio:)

There is alot more than that but the kiddo is here with a stack of books and I have to go.

Jake

[John B]

Thanks Jake :D

[py]

Hi John. I had the same sort of caper a few years ago when I got myself a 52' steel boat. (Since sold) It was like learning how to run a small town. 2 big diesel tanks, big engine, lotsa batteries, pumps, hot and cold running water, a couple of crappers, complicated fridges, electric winches, a whole seperate generator with its own engine, vhf and ssb radio etc etc. ssb radio is for when you are out of range of your usual shore stations and repeaters. Around the aussie coast vhf coverage is pretty good, but there are some long stretches with no repeaters and no stations, and of course once you get more than 40 miles or so off shore you are out of vhf range anyway. That's when ssb can be good to pick up regular weather forecasts broadcast by the met bureau, and potentially for scheds with one of the established services such as those mentioned above (there's a similar one operated out of eastern oz somewhere, or your own network if you set something up. eg when we sailed from oz to png we arranged a daily sched with a friend with a ssb on board. Personaly I prefer not to get tied to regular scheds, just results in mass panic ashore if you happen to miss a sched. And as noted above, if you want you can get a thing in a computer which will pick up a ssb signal transmitted by the met bureau and turn that into a weather map, which is pretty cool, and you can send and recieve email, also pretty cool, if you are into that sort of stuff. I go sailing to get away from email. if say you were going to sail over to fiji you'd find the ssb pretty handy for weather forecasts on the way, and to keep in touch with people back home if you wish to. other than that, probly not much use.

[John B]

Thanks py, thats exactly what interests me. I've been badly burnt by weather forecasts before now,usually the withholding of information that allows you to strategically plan .The famous one being in the late 1990's when NZ metservice deliberately withheld the fact that therewas a TC coming down from the tropics because their brief only went 24 hours for coastal forecasting:mad: We got our warning from bush telegraph and AM radio:mad: :mad: .I'd much rather be able to add the isobars in a visual form and make a calculated guesstimate( alongside what the experts are saying of course)

[paladin]

John...14.313 and 14.315 are used all over the area from Hong Kong to Tasmania.....14.313 is the Southeast asia net.....comes on with one guy working as net control and everyone waits for an opening and logs in.....ususally at 1900 zulu on Sundays. It's short and sweet....you just give your boats name and position, and tell someone that you want a message passed to another person....and it usually gets there rather mysteriously.....
It will work like......
BONG!......this is HS3AJH, Hotel Sierra Three Alpha Juliet Hotel, Net control for the south east asia net. There will be carrier for 30 seconds to zero beat.
(at this point you adjust the "clarifier" on your radio for the best sounding voice, it walks the channel adjustment onto frequency)
It is time to check in. Do we have any one wishing to check in for the south china sea area?...and folks come on and say "this is N4EZV, yacht Tanamari with traffic for Manila"
And you will be acknowledged. If he doesn't hear you he will ask for another check and so on.....just listen...sorta like lurking on the forum...and you'll get the idea....

[John B]

Thanks Chuck, noted and added to my new file for the nav station.:D
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p2c21f356ad62be5c52afb645a6a6bea1/e9e16767.jpg
man cave.;)

[SV Papillon]

Sweeet nav station:D:D

[John B]

Its mine all mine, the girls don't even try to sidle on in there. Sloping table isn't very good for a beer bottle though:D