Restoring a 16ft Runabout - Help!

[Ragwing]

Hello,

The wife and I are mulling over purchasing a project boat. It is a 1956 Minnetoka Runabout, Lap Strake construction. It comes with a 35 hp Johnson Super Seahorse with electric start. The motor is in very good shape, no rust, it is clean and was overhauled recently.

The boat, well...harder to say.

The hull looks pretty good, no rot or damage that I could find. Much of the trim work will need to be replaced, some of the trim/seat fasteners are rusting. The whole boat needs to be stripped and re-varnished. But the paint on the hull, inside and out, has been kept up well so I believe it is in good shape.

The bad is the transom. The boat has been sitting out for the last week, but at the base of the transom on the inside the wood is wet. On the outside, the transom has several blotchy and rough spots which to my untrained eye don't look good. And there are two large cracks up on the top that cross through several of the transoms members. The cracks have been mitigated by screwing steel plates to the inside of the transom. It has run like this for years. The cracks were probably created when the boat was trailered from Minnesota out here to the Northwest.

The boat has been modified slightly, the owner says that years back the windshield was modified to block the wind/waves a bit better, and the dash doesn't quite look right. The electrical (what electrical there is anyway) works, but I would probably re-wire everything.

The boat has been in 1 family for all its life and has been stored inside during the winter. During the summer it has sat out, with a canvas cover over it and a bilge pump set to auto to keep water accumulation down.

So now for the question, the wife and I want a project, we don't know what we are getting ourselves into, but I am confident we have the skills, desire and facility's to do the work, and unlimited access to a dock on Hood Canal. Given the boats condition, how much is it worth? The owner wants $3500, I am the first in line right now, but there are others who want it. We love the look of this little boat, we are casual boaters but we love old wood boats. Would we be crazy to pay $3500 for this basket case?

Thanks in advance for the advice.

PS, I'd love to post some photos, but given the size restrictions here I'll need to find an alternate site.

In the mean time: http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/295581763.html

[Tom Lathrop]

Look up Capt Jake over on messing-about.com.

http://www.messing-about.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5212

He is finishing up on a similar project and lives near you. Also had some transom issues.

[pcford]

Would we be crazy to pay $3500 for this basket case?


mmmmMaybe. Maybe not. $3500 is a pretty generous price. If the boat were completely sound it perhaps would be justified.

It is easy to be fooled by half-way decent paint and varnish. A guy bought a late 40s Chris into the shop; it had decent varnish. By the time I was done, it was 85% new wood.

You need to get a knowledgeable person to look at it.

[capt jake]

The price seems a bit steep to me also. I paid $200 for mine, but obviously a different make and not lapstrake.

I hope to have it back in the water in April. I am in Olympia if you want to chat more about it. Where are you? Shelton?

[katiedobe]

Welcome to the forum. There are a lot of good woodenboat forumites up in the WA area.

I paid $700 for a similar style and era lapstrake with a similar aged johnson three years ago. It was completely sound with no repair work needed. Hell the oak keel and frames had no blackening from water intrusion past the varnish. Looked grea. Had a collapsable canvas top to use to drive it in the rain. All I did was remove the crappy paint that was not the correct type for the bottom, half of it peeled right off the first time I took it out on the river, looked nice in the auto lot though.

Keep looking, $3,500 is too much.
After close inspection make them an offer of about $1,500 and leave your phone number and name. They will probably end up calling you in about a month when no one else buys it.

Fun little boat.

[katiedobe]

One more thing. I replaced the old 2 stroke with a new honda 4 stroke because of my environmental beliefs. The installer told me that I should replace the cable steering system due to it's age. He said that sometimes those old cables have gone bad due to age and useage. I was skeptical that he just wanted to sell me more but he said that if the cable broke the motor turns rapidly to one side and the boat can flip over. SO I added the push/pull new steering system found on modern outboards, cost only an extra $300.

So at the very least assume that you will need to replace the cables on the cable steering system. Not dificult to do, I just had the money and I was buying a new honda engine so I thought why not. If I was restoring I would have replaced the cable myself.

[capt jake]

I also went to a newer motor, though it is a 2 stroke. I scrapped the cable steering and also upgraded to the teleflex style steering.

My problem with the transom was merely adding to the height to enable me to put a newer motor on it. Finding a short shaft morot over about 25 hp with remote steering is a bit difficult. ;)

[Ragwing]

Thanks for the welcome and all the responses! I hope to join the ranks of classic wooden boat owners before too long.

Capt Jake - Your boat is looking great. I'm in Seattle but the inlaws have property in Brinnon, so that is where the boat would live in the summer and where all the work would be done.

I made the inspection yesterday, with the hope of driving away with the boat, but I just wasn't comfortable. I think Jimmy's advice of offering $1500 and calling it good is probably the way we will go. If we got the boat we would be planning on a pretty major rebuild. Cables, Transom, trim - whatever it needed. But this is the first boat that we have seen, and we really haven't done much market research to see what else is out there. Something else will probably come along. We really like the look of this little boat, and the lapstrake construction, who knows. I'll let you guys know how it works out.

[Tom Lathrop]

Ragman,

I did not get into the price because that is so much related to the condition. As others have said $3500 is high for most similar boats this age. However, if the rebuilding work is as limited as the photos appear to show, that should be factored in. I think the $1500 offer is in order although many might suggest less.

Most similar boats I have seen for sale have an interior that doesn't look anything like that good. The boat appears to have never been left out in the weather for any extended length of time. That is what destroys a wooden boat like this.

Good luck.

[ishmael]

I tried to sell a CC Sea Skiff of the same vintage about ten years ago. It was a nice boat, 26ft, a nice flathead six that ran well, all fresh water. No major problems, and I was asking the same price as for your potential project. Not a nibble. It depends on the local market.

The modification around the dash and windshield bother me more than the transom. Replacing a transom, while not a walk in the park, is really pretty easy. Getting back original configuration can be more difficult. If that's important to you.

What is the boat planked with?

As others have said, to me the price sounds high by about two times, but I don't know the market. If you don't chomp at the bit, taking some time and looking around can be the best advice. You might find a similar boat that doesn't need any serious woodworking for half the price, though probably not quite like this one. I've always overpaid for my boats, so don't listen to me. LOL.

Those Johnson's have a good rep, from what I've heard, FWIW.

[Minnesota]

Ragwing-
You might look up and private message Andreas Jordahl Ruhl, a member of the forum. He is president and longtime member of the ACBS in Minnesota, and may be able to tell you how unusual that runabout is, the soundness of the original construction, etc. or put you in touch with someone else who can.

[Ragwing]

Thanks for the good advice. The boat interior really is in good shape, I think the owner has been very conceincious about protecting it from prolonged exposure to the weather.

We don't really see this as an investment, just something fun, so if we over pay a little it isn't such a big deal - we would still have a cute little boat.

But we do care about getting it back to it's origional condition - which seems like it might be difficult, I haven't been able to find anything more than a passing reference to this manufuacturer on the web.

Minnesota - thanks for the tip - I'll see what I can find out.

Thanks guys

[ishmael]

Others here will know better than I about the mods. PC, Andreas, one of them will be able to steer you if you want to restore the boat to original. What did they do to the dash and windshield? Sometimes things that don't look quite right are original.

It would be good before plunking down that money to have the boat looked at by someone who knows this kind of boat, especially if it isn't feeling quite right. All kinds of things could be wrong that will make the project less fun. One problem area that's common in this sort of boat is the frames in the bilge. Sometimes they cracked if the owner drove the boat hard and they often sat in fresh water. Give a good poke at the frames down low. It's probably framed with white oak, which is good stuff, but... Good looking paint doesn't mean much.

[Ragwing]

... Good looking paint doesn't mean much.

You're right.

As to what looked "wrong" to me - the dash had diagonal cuts through it on either end. Maybe that was to facilitate original installation - I don't know. There was also a tube to connect to a pitot tube for a spedometer. The dash has a couple of holes where a surface mounted instrument could have been - but I don't know if spedo's are surface mounted or mounted through the dash.

The boat shows other evidence of fiddling - there are holes that match the middle seat size and mounting locations in the middle of the boat - a foot or two from where the middle seat is mounted.

The wires for the choke and starting switch run forward behind a piece of trim, they enter through a hole in the trim. There is a second whole, same size, which has been taped over - I don't know what used to enter through that hole.

Thanks all.

[Andreas Jordahl Rhude]

Welcome. Is this a boat made by Minnetonka Boat Works of Wayzata, MN? If yes, the brand name is "Tonka Craft." Minnetonka Boat Works was an early 20th century amalgmation of several Lake Minnetonka, MN area boat builders. Inboard runabouts and utilities were one major product. They eventually added cedar strip row/fishing/motor boats and then plywood lapstrake outboards. I am not certain when they gave up boat building, but then hung on as a boat dealer, marina, and service facility into the 1980s. They were a major Chris-Craft dealer for many decades.

Their old facility is still a marina, fancy pants restaurant, and office space.

I had one of my Thompson lapstrake outboards displayed in an on-land vintage boat show a few years ago, right outside the door of the old Minnetonka Boat Works. Some eldery man came up and was eyeing that Thompson. I started chatting with him and he said that he was a boat builder "over there," pointing at the Boat Works. We conbtinued to talk and he said that the means for them getting into building lapstrake boats was as follows. The firm bought a Thompson boat and brought it back to the shop. The boss told a crew to study it, take it all apart, and make patterns and forms so they could start producing this style boat! The guy I chatted with was one of them on that crew!

I am not real familiar with TonkaCraft boats They were a very small production builder. I assume that planking is Douglas fir plywood and that it is screwed to the ribs and also bolted with machine bolts from lap to lap. The transom may be made up of one layer of vertical boards on the inside and one layer of horizontal boards on the exterior, screwed together from the inside.

$3,500 is much too much for a boat this size and type and with the condition problems you mention. If she were turn-key, that would be a different story. Half this price may still be too much.

The Iowa Great Lakes Maritime Museum in Arnolds Park, Iowa has some TonkaCraft brochures in their archives. I was there a month ago and made a brief review of those materials (searching for OTHER stuff). There is some informaiton on TonkaCraft in Volume IV of "The Real Runabouts" by Mr. Bob Speltz.

There are only six (6) Tonka Craft boats listed in the Antique & Classic Boat Society member directory (www.acbs.org). I know 5 of the owners - all local men! At least two of those are cedar strip boats.

Mr. Andreas Jordahl Rhude
Minneapolis
email: thompsonboat@msn.com

[Andreas Jordahl Rhude]

Oh, the boat probably did not come from the factory with any hardware. Or minimal hardware. The instruments on the dash may have been added at a dealership or by previous owners. It was very typical for power boat makers to NOT included much if any hardware on their boats as standard items.

Andreas

[Ragwing]

Andreas,

Thank you for the history and advice! I guess I've been searching for the wrong boat manufacturer. If things work out and we get the boat I guess I will try and contact the Museum and see if they could make copies of the brochures. Thank you for your time!

Derek

[Joe Lambert]

Ok, I just have to pipe in here. While lapstrake boats have historically been viewed as second class boats by comparison to the carvel planked mahogany counterparts I think that if you look at what prices have done in the last ~5 years some people out there may be suprised. For referance, a 15 foot lyman that would have sold for $3500 a few years back today is likely to bring closer to 6-7k. I've seen boats of that size go for 9k in bristol condition. Granted, the Lyman name is worth something but still, the trend is clear. Beyond that the market which 3 years ago was overflowing has largely dried up. for years people were giving these boats away, we picked up 3 that way, but times do seem to be changing

For a boat of that age to have a couple extra holes here and there is par for the course, no old boat escapes without somebody saying "hey, I think a compass would like real nice right here". also it's not unheard of for people to relocate things like seats when the existing mounting holes get worn out.

I think it looks like a pretty nice little boat in amazingly complete and original condition. By the way, the push button ignition pannel and motor controls are themselves getting increasingly hard to come across.

You could offer less but I don't think you'd regrett it too much at that price assuming there aren't any hidden deamons.

[Andreas Jordahl Rhude]

Don't get me wrong, I think lapstrake outboard power boats are the greatest! I have numerous in my collection and my everyday user boat is a Thompson lapstrake. I am restoring one right now as well.

Prices and value of classic lapstrake power boats are increasing and they are getting more respect at antique and classic boat shows.

I find it difficult to believe that a Lyamn outboard 15-footer would bring $6 - 7,000 or even more. Maybe an 18-19 footer in prestine, turn key condition.

Yup, addtional hardware items and instruments added to an original boat are very typical. These boats were built to be used and enjoyed and if an owner added "stuff" to make his/her use of the vessel more enjoyable, more power to 'em.

Andreas

[Joe Lambert]

Sorry, I should have posted a referance in my post.

check out http://www.lymanboat.com/brokerage.php3 to see comparable boats, they top out at $12,500 for a 15' boat. You can also check out the lyman club LSBA.ORG I think but their classified section has been pretty well picked clean.

I think they are great boats, you'd pay more than that for a new boat that wouldn't look nearly as neat, wouldn't handle big water half as well and wouldn't have one ounce of the personality. Oh yes, and I second the earlier post, transoms aren't such a huge deal that you can't do it yourself.

[Ragwing]

Well, you guys are going to think I'm out of my mind. While we were trying to make up decided about the Tonka Craft we followed up on another project boat that is in our price range - it is a 1963 Tollycraft - 17'. It was restored 15 or so years and has always been kept under a roof and up out of the water. A couple of years back, while the owner was away, the boat was knocked about a by a storm and some water got inside. The owner pumped the water out, but never felt up to the restoration project. He pulled all the seats and such out, but got no further. We went and had a look at it today, it certainly needs work, but it really looks like it is in good shape considering. We weren't dressed for a thurough inspection, but we will be returning with a deposit and proper attire to take a more methodical look at it tomorrow.

We know the engine (A "Chris Craft" 327 230hp) needs to be overhauled - so that's a couple thousand there. It needs a trailer - which is another couple of thousand if we were to go new. It needs a lot of elbow grease to bring the finish back, and proably a million other things that we haven't thought about yet. But the wife is in love with it - better to have her on my side at the beginning.

The Tonka craft had great character, I loved the rustic appearance appeals to me. In light of the new find, the wife doesn't exactly see eye to eye, she would rather put her money and effort toward the Tollycraft (even if it is a lot more money). But the acquisition cost is less - $500 less to be precise - so I feel like it is better bang for the buck.

[Ragwing]

Just as an FYI, the Tollycraft it is a Sportabout:

http://www.tolly-classified.com/63list.html

[capt jake]

Ragwing, did you see this one?
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/299635303.html

[Ragwing]

I didn't, very cute though. I see how you guys can get multiple boats in your collections - just too many deserving subjects....

[capt jake]

I didn't, very cute though. I see how you guys can get multiple boats in your collections - just too many deserving subjects....
Too many subject and with the advent of the internet... too many places to look. :eek:

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

Another great website to check current prices on classic wooden boats.


http://antiqueboat.com/boatforsale.html



This boat Just like mine (1961 16' Lyman) sold for $11,500!!!!!!


http://antiqueboat.com/boats/images/brei16-1.jpg

[Ragwing]

Thanks for the link! Very interesting browsing.....

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

Well to be truthful......mines in pieces in the garage.......not quite finished. Actually mine nothing like that........that takes talent and money and good judgement and information. I seek these all. That's why I come here. Like minded people and opinionated opinions eh?

[Ragwing]

That is a gorgeous boat, they sure did a great job on it. The modern outboard just doesn't look right though.

[Ragwing]

Well, we decided to purchase the Tollycraft. We're looking for a trailer, if anyone knows where to look in the Seattle area we would appreciate it.

Also, I was wondering if any of you could recommend any books which would address basic techniques for proper boat repair/restoration. I know there is a wooden boat school in the area, I will probably take a couple days of vacation to attend some of the "workshop" courses over the summer. But I'd like to get a head start on my studies and build a library for when I run into the un-expected.

Thanks all.

Edit, just found this thread: http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=62622&highlight=library

[capt jake]

And I just found this one. :) Too late I see.... http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/301781963.html