Saving a 65 foot classic. Traditionalists beware

[neiltd]

Hi,

I've taken on a bit of a project and would appreciate any good advice.

I've acquired a 65 foot 1930's classic sailing boat (Marconi ketch rigged). Great design and a stunning vessel - worth saving. Construction - Pitch Pine on Oak with long keel (Lead). I have the original plans.

The previous owner bought her in the Caribbean after many years in a boatyard. He routered plank seams to 3/8th inch and epoxied in hardwood splines. When launched, the boat 'took up' and many frames cracked. Other frames suffer from 'Iron sickness' due to iron through bolts in doubled frames. Oak stem also suffers from iron sickness from iron floors. Planking is generally excellent and original but could not be re-caulked without major work (due to splines) but the boat has kept its shape well.

Basically, to restore the boat back to it's original traditional condition is beyond my means. I've decided to sheath the boat with a cold molded skin and I want to do it right. I'm prepared to replace every frame with new frames, laminated in place and bonded/bolted to planking (double frames at chain plates). I will also laminate in a new stem and floors. This way, I can encapsulate each plank after moisture testing. The boat is stored under cover in the Caribbean and has been out of water for the last six years.

My Questions:

Is it a good idea to encapsulate the keel? ie. Cold Mold to bottom of lead and encapsulate with glass fiber.
Should I glass inside of planking and bilges to prevent future water ingress?
Would stainless steel bolts be ok for bolting planking and stem to frames?
Are there any good books/other resources that can help me? (Any good websites? Has anyone completed a similar project? (Like Curlew)
Approximate quantities of epoxy resin required per Sq. foot of each layer of cold molding.
Would 3 layers of 3/16th cross diagonal plus outer glassfiber be enough? (Cedar or Mahogany or other?)
Does anyone know of suitable Guyanese hardwoods suitable for laminating frames and stem?I am a reasonably competent carpenter with some experience working on wooden boats (I have replaced frames, planking and mast step in my 40 foot classic). My profession is construction management so I am realistic of the amount of work involved.

Thanks in advance for your advice.
Regards, Neil

[paladin]

This is just general info......a boat that size will have many more...."depends".......
Adding 3/8ths of an inch overall in the hull will drastically change volume......I would make sure that the boat is out in the air well ventilated to help dry the hull. Then clean to bare wood.......coat entire hull with cpes. then laminate 3 layers of 1/8th inch mahogany or similar, first layer 45 degrees forward, second layer 45 degrees aft, third layer fore and aft. I would not use fiberglas....2 layers of epoxy and xynole fabric would be preferred. Do not add laminations to keel or deadwood. Clean to bare wood and metal and coat with cpes. and then 4 layers of xynole to turn of keel/deadwood/hull....
the deck is a different matter......I would strip and clean the interior and cpes the entire interior.....but I'm just a hacker.....more qualified folks will come along shortly.....like Lucky Luke and Michael (MMD)...

[Nicholas Carey]

Adding 3/8ths of an inch overall in the hull will drastically change volumeConsider a half-cylinder 65 x 10 feet. Adding 3/8th of an inch increases the volume by more than 32 cubic feet. At 62.31 pounds per cubic foot, that works out to about 2,000 pounds of [fresh] water.

[Bob (oh, THAT Bob)]

Consider a half-cylinder 65 x 10 feet. Adding 3/8th of an inch increases the volume by more than 32 cubic feet. At 62.31 pounds per cubic foot, that works out to about 2,000 pounds of [fresh] water.

Yes but how much weight will be added as well? What is the density (specific gravity relative to water) of the added materials? If close to that of water, I would think it's a wash (no pun intended). The boat floats due to the volume enclosed, not the low density of the materials, I'll bet it may come out close. I wouldn't think that righting moments, drag, etc, would be effected that much if the waterline stays the same. Now, added weight on deck, if your intention, where it does not displace additional volume, and raises the center of gravity, that might be more of an issue. Definitely run the numbers before investing a minute of work. I'm also just a hack, so better authorities may dispute any or all of the above.

Bob

[Gary E]

And that might make it float how much higher? or lower?
My guess, is it wont matter, nobody is gona care.

Sounds like you have a long term project on your hands...
Hope it works out for you.

Good luck

[Don Z.]

There was an article on this very subject in an older WoodenBoat. I believe the work in the article was done by Jespersen's, in BC, and I hear they know a thing or two about cold molding. Do a search in the archives, I believe the boat's name was Falcon.

I thought, if splines were installed correctly, they would not crack the frame? I know only what I've read of this method, but I recall they are glued on only one side, thus allowing room for expansion. Perhaps re-routing and re-installing correctly would be better than adding three layers?

Edited to add:

Here it is: Looks like way back to issue number 61. I guess if you can track down information on that boat today, you'll have some idea of its long term success or failure!

Cold-molded hull repair: Owens cutter FALCON/Bent Jespersen, 60:76, 61:104

[Jay Greer]

They tried a similar method to restore the 8 meter "Angelita" just prior to the America's Cup races in San Diego. The boat looked stunning! After a few years all hell broke loose and the hull developed more problems than a basket of snakes. The Nick Potter designed boat is so famous and such a classic that Wym. Cannell was commisioned to build a replica using a few components of the origional. Think of the money they would have saved if they had taken that route to begin with!
JG

[Mike Vogdes]

This sounds like this could be a monster of a project.
Do have any sort of budget nailed down? I'm guessing this could run in the hundreds of thousands.

[Woxbox]

Does anyone know of suitable Guyanese hardwoods suitable for laminating frames and stem?


Massive quantities of Courbaril - South American Locust - were purchased down there to build the Kalmar Nyckel. The price was decent and it's got all the qualities you'd want, except that it is pretty heavy stuff. But in limited quantities it should fill the bill. It's hard as rock and looks beautiful when finished bright where it shows. The hull of the Kalmar Nyckel has more courbaril in it than any other wood. The balance is a mix of purpleheart, greenheart and a few other odds and ends. (From the deck on up, she's fir and spruce.)

[Hwyl]

This was also done to the Carr's "Curlew". Also an article in WB if I remember correctly.
I also think she floated marginally higher.

I did some rigging work on "Angelita" it was a really poor job, the epoxy was just poured into her.

[webfoot]

I'm in the same boat (so to speak), having bought a boat that had been fiberglassed, but not done well.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2103260729

I stripped all the fiberglass off with the intention of keeping her wood. But after getting some good local advice, I will be resheathing using a diagnal glass from Brunswick Technologies. I am repairing all the cracked, rotten frames and totally refastening in bronze. So I will have a GOO-den Boat. There are two great articles to read 1) Alternative Repair stategies for wooden boats, WB #168 pg.40. 2) A Cold-Mold Rebuild: Covering an Old Wooden Hull with New Wood by Fritz Seyfarfh.

Good Luck, Chris

[Paul Scheuer]

Welcome Neil. Got any Pics ?

[Brian Palmer]

I don't get it.

You are going to replace all the frames (and we assume the fastenings).

You say the planking is in excellent shape except for the splines. You will replace the stem and floors as well.

And then, because of "limited means," you are going to sheath the hull with a very expensive layer of veneers laminated with epoxy and covered with dynel and more epoxy.

I honestly think that a good yard that could replace the frames could also correct the planks and preserve the original integity of the boat for the same money as the cold molding approach. You could take all the money and labor spent on the veneers and epoxy and correct the splines. After all the other work you are proposing, it seems that is the only thing left to fix.

Even if you are doing the work yourself, routing out the splines and putting new edges on the planks sounds like a lot less in time and materials than covering the whole hull with veneers and epoxy and dynel.

-- Brian

[JimD]

I'm in the same boat (so to speak), having bought a boat that had been fiberglassed, but not done well.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2103260729

Good Luck, Chris

Chris, what a beauty!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid211/pe042ff2d54e2b688801f3f382dc96a5a/ed9adf95.jpg (javascript:viewExifData())

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid211/pc8943b735fda5d4dfd6bb54720e4c282/ed9adf42.jpg (javascript:viewExifData())

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid211/p94b263880479fbd73f4a2a69f86f08c5/ed9a7b34.jpg (javascript:viewExifData())

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid211/p5c827e2001ee2d95d8aaa9ad0d8d73fe/ed97e49a.jpg (javascript:viewExifData())

[py]

I'm in the "I don't get it" camp. Why not route out the splines, and replace them with softwood splines, which is pretty well established practice, or recaulk as per original construction, which is even more established practice. Anytime anyone other than the curlew people put an inflexible layer of stuff on a hull made of stuff that is going to move, there will be tears before bedtime.

[lannig]

I agree with PY, routed out the stuff and replace with soft wood or recaulk !
I recaulk mine with 5200 :D Lots of controversies on this question :D
You should have seen some of the shouting match we get from some peoples :D Even me at the begining !!
Personally, fiberglassing a wooden boat is a big NO NO :p
It might be a quick solution but after a few years you see the boat for sale at pretty cheap price :rolleyes:
There is a nice schooner for sale at the moment : Malabar VI 1924 Alden
At $ 180,000.00 ,cheap !! Sure enough she has been fiberglassed a few years ago :o
Anyway, best of luck in your project !!
Photos please :D

Lannig
www.mavourneen-mary.com (http://www.mavourneen-mary.com)

[Excalibur]

I have to chime in even tho I'm still a kid (woodwise). Py is right. If the boat is "worth saving", save it. Do not cold mold the hull. If you do, your boat will be dead in a decade as rigid cold molding fights with the rest of your more flexible 70 year old boat, cracks form, and water/mold goes in for the kill. Router out the splines and replace them correctly. That way, she can be replanked in 10 years instead of sawn up. Doing it this way may be more labor, but will not be more expensive than cold molding. :rolleyes:

[OEX]

The guy from Wooden Boat Rescue Foundation is yelling...."do not do it. It will cost more and will spell the end of the boat."

Bruce

[Robmill0605]

I'm in the "I don't get it" camp. Why not route out the splines, and replace them with softwood splines, which is pretty well established practice, or recaulk as per original construction, which is even more established practice. Anytime anyone other than the curlew people put an inflexible layer of stuff on a hull made of stuff that is going to move, there will be tears before bedtime.


I have to agree with the others here. When I started my modest project, I bought into the epoxy " miracle".
It isn't.
If I had it to do all over again I wouldn't.I'd of used traditional construction.
With epoxy at around $50 bucks a gallon x 65 ft of BIG boat , plus the cost of veneers ( read expensive) plus the cost of xynol,( expensive) more epoxy, fairing, more epoxy and more labor and in the end more money than just fixing it right to begin with.
That's my2 cents.http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/images/icons/icon10.gif

"Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how'd you enjoy the play"?

[paladin]

so that my remarks are not misunderstood......I wasn't agreeing with the methodology....I was suggesting IF it was going to be done, that the proposed method was overkill.....that said......
I don't think I would ever recommend veneering a planked boat.....except possibly....as a means of maintaining hull shape if all else was lost. I would prefer building a new hull and deck and transferring hardware etc to the "new" boat where practical. I do not remember any real "successes" using this, except that info published on Curlew.....

[Thad Van Gilder]

you are crazy if you think it is cheaper to cold molt than to just fix the planking. A friend of mine, Billy, is glassing a 63 foot Hand Motor sailor. Its a double ended ketch.

Including the Imron on the glass, and rebuilding the engine. Oh, and the new brronze screws, he has $150,000 in the boat. It still has not had the interior put back in.

Doubt me? He is in the marina opposite from Shore memorial hospitol on Bay ave in Somer's Point, NJ. It used to be Garden State Marina, but it changed recently.You can talk to the man himself.

You can replank a boat like that for much, much less money. a square foot of 8/4 doug fir is what? 12 bucks. a square foot of the veneers, epoxy and glass you are describing... 40 bucks maybe?

-Thad

[Sacrboroughsloop]

Got to agree, do't go down that route. Router out the splines and re-caulk.

[neiltd]

Thanks for all the advice so far...

The feedback I'm getting is generally negative to the idea of cold molding, which is understandable, but the Carrs did manage it with Curlew - with long lasting results. Is anyone aware of a boat as large as mine that has also achieved this? I am starting to have a re-think about this process now though, although the idea of cold molding does appeal to me on this project because:

1 - Replacing the stem would be easier if the boat was cold-molded. (less accuracy with the rebate etc.)
2 - Additional work required to the planking in order for the boat to be caulked.
3 - Boat is very dry, and gaps in deadwood (oak) are large enough to fit my hand into.
4 - Frames are easier to replace by laminating in-situ in my experience. This also fits in well with bonding frames to planking.
5 - Because fastenings will not be exposed to water (with cold molded skin) S/S could be used (cheaper)
6 - Lack of skilled shipwright labour where boat is located. (there are plenty of good cheap carpeneters though)

My intention was to try to convert the construction to monocoque through bonding/fastening planking, frames, stem and keelson and stabilise moisture content by glassing inside. However, if the general feelings are that this process would not work, I'll need to employ a team of shiprights to do the job traditionally.

This to me would cost much more than myself and other resonable carpenters laminating components. (Costs of materials are not so great due to proximity to Guyana)

Thanks again, Neil

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

It seems to me that part of the "fun and games" here is due to the original planking material.

Pitch Pine is "all over the place" when it is allowed to dry out, and it takes up extremely slowly - but powerfully.

It is about the last wood that I would choose to veneer over.

But dealing with nailsick and cracked frames is not such a big thing - I'd bet that most of us have done some of that.

[Matt J.]

Wow.

I'm in the don't do it camp. If her planking is strong, and you're going to affect the repairs anyway to the framing... then doing the stem "right" will be long-term easier and less expensive than cold moulding an entire hull never designed for that.

I've been where you are with a 34' and threw in the towel ( :( )... now we've got a 24' yawl that needs re-framing and I'm getting delayed time after time. Lots of people ahve suggested everything from reasonable (laminated frames in lieu of the steam bent) to ridiculous (cold molded or plastic frames or fibreglass the hull).

I'm not even qualified as a wood butcher, but I managed to make a slab of timber into a respectable new wood keel for the 34 footer.

When looking at boats - the first ones we scratched off the list were glassed or molded.

Don't kill the boat while saving her. But, sincerely, best of luck to you... I'm in a not too different boat, as it were.

[neiltd]

I will post photo's of the boat soon when I can get them digitalised

Thanks again to everyone, Neil

[Noah]

Go take a look at:

http://classifieds.woodenboats4sale.com/hsx/classifieds.hsx?db=boats;website=;language=;sessio n_key=;search_and_display_db_button=on;results_for mat=long;db_id=33;query=retrieval

This is a listing for a local boat that was cold molded and reviewed in Wooden Boat. I can tell you that the keel, floors and probably a bunch of the deadwood is slowly dribbling out the bottom of the boat in big brown streaks.

Don't do it. Fixing this boat properly is going to cost less than trying to stick on a ton of wood on the outside.

[neiltd]

Hi Luke,
The boat was out of the water for about six years or more before the old owner epoxied in hardwood splines. The sawn oak frames have more parted through the grain than snapped (snapped was a bad term to use)... but all doubled frames have iron sickness because of iron through bolts. Some of these have effectively snapped here due to weakness. Basically all frames need replacing. Fastenings have also worked loose. The full stem also needs replacing - this finishes as the mast step. I am not yet sure of the state of the keelson (Elm) under the mast step, but I suspect there may be some damage/rot there. Basically a very big job.

Hope this clarifies the issue slightly...

Thanks again, Neil

[Lucky Luke]

Hi Neil,

Having been *nicely* (GRRRR...so much work to do!!!) invited by Chuc/ Paladin to do so, I feel compelled to put in my two cents. But I am afraid that I have simply not understood the extend of the problem!!!

From what I undesrtand, one of the problems is the broken frames, and you say that this is due to the swelling of the planking after she got hardwood splines. In most cases, it is the fastening (unless oversized = it happens!) which would have gone loose , or have been broken, not the frames that would have cracked.

You say that she is pitchpine on oak. If oak, that would normally be sawn oak frames, and they would almost certainely not have cracked, but steam bent ones (which would probably not be oak but perhaps ash ) would have effectively cracked due to over-caulking or too powerful swelling of the planking after those splines had been put it. The thing I would like to know is : how is the crack? In most cases, it would be along grain, not across. It would be useful to know.

Pitch pine is a beautiful, most rot resistant wood, but also has quite some *temperament*, as Andrew mentionned here-above. Then, you can simply question yourself: *if* it has been able to crack the frames, wont it be able to part from your cold molding? My impression is that it definitely will, no matter what glue you will use: it will crack not in the glued joint but besides it.

Then a most important problem to be adressed is the iron sickness (the one due to the bolting of the sister frames =take them all out), apparently mainly at the stem. Aren t all the other floors made of steel (iron?) ? How good are they? What about the fastening of these to the frames? What about your keel bolts ? You MUST check these.

If I get it right, you may have to replace these floors. Stainless steel :316 if you can afford it (price of nickel is going crazy!). 304 =not really recommendable, but...... Bolting: 316L as much as possible. Could you afford bronze/ monel?

As far as the planking is concerned (and, excuse me, but this sounds like a minor problem), routering-off the hardwood is not that easy: better the soft wood just besides. Anyway, a router is, to my opinion, not the right machine, but better use a circular saw: faster, and since it goes almost straight allows a narrower cut (just wide enough!) than the smallest router s cutter. Needs a good guiding, just the same. Dangerous though. Then prime, caulk, filler up, and paint. Will feel like miles of work!!!

Then, if the condition of your boat really needs it, and if you decide to cold mold over the present planking (????) may I say that you will, anyway, have to open the seams: I do not think that a rigid cold molding will accept the (unavoidable after sometimes, no matter what * encapsulation* you do) swelling up of the original pitchpine planking if retaining the present splines. But then: why not caulk?

Besides that: glassing the bottom inside and outside is a sure recepy for rot.

Last: encapsulating the lead keel ? If cold molding, you will effectively have to cover the end grain, and it will not be posible to rely on that short distance between ballast/ keel junction and rabbet.

Somehow, I feel reluctant to all this encapsulation, though. Sound like she is a good boat, that no money was spared in her construction....but she surely has been really dryed out: that gaps in the deadwood are so large that you can put your hand through is really worrying. Then, it might be a little bit silly to say: launch her (with good bilge pump) , let her swell up, and see what really happens....might be just too late!

Please let us know.

Detail: 3 x 3/16th. = 9/16th = nearly 1/2 inch. Right? But don t worry: no one (unless designing racing boats to a certain rule) is really sure of what lines he should do within 1/2 inch :rolleyes:....and as the density of your cold molding will already be around 0.7..........Bof!

[Lucky Luke]

Hi Luke,
The boat was out of the water for about six years or more before the old owner epoxied in hardwood splines.
...and still is...:rolleyes:
The sawn oak frames have more parted through the grain than snapped (snapped was a bad term to use)
wat do you mean by snapped/ not snapped??? (sorry, i am not English)
... but all doubled frames have iron sickness because of iron through bolts.
Do you mean all frames are douuble sawn ? ...and all iron sick?...pretty bad, New frames, yes.
Fastenings have also worked loose. The full stem also needs replacing - this finishes as the mast step. I am not yet sure of the state of the keelson (Elm) under the mast step, but I suspect there may be some damage/rot there. Basically a very big job.

Big job! You said it! Basically: replacing all frames, whole stem, perhaps keelson (all this needing *opening* the planking), most or all fastening....

Definitely needs pictures. Reports from expert before buying?

[Tom Robb]

One of the fun things about the forum is when someone asks for advice about a project and then ignores the advice given.
Another good boat on its way to the chainsaw and the dump.

[neiltd]

Hi again.
The frames are double sawn, butted with iron fastenings and through bolted also with iron. Floors are also iron and also in a bad state, hence problem with stem.
The old owner bought her after being in a boatyard for years, got someone to fix her up to sail. After launching her, he discovered the real problems then. The boat has since been out of the water for another 6 years since last launched.
Sorry, but I'm in UK at the moment so detailed photos not available. I should be able to post some external photos soon though.
Thanks again, Neil

[Gary E]

Another good boat on its way to the chainsaw and the dump.

What makes you think this is a GOOD boat now?

I dont understand when ALL the Xperts chime in with opinios on somethng they have never even seen... Ohh you've see somethng like it?... maybe, but NOBODY has seen THIS boat.

Doncha feel like spending a couple hunnerd on wieenies, beer and marsh mellows about now?


I dont know anything about the intended use of this completed project, but if Charter is the goal, I'd look real carefully at the requirements for that. If just a personal boat, yikes its gona be a big one.

How about making a Ceement and re bar skin on it? .. I've seens big ones that seem to do ok, and if you make the skin thick enough you have built in strength and who cares what shape the wood inside is...

Ok... FLAME AWAY... remember... YOU aint seen it either...

Edit to add....
Take a look at this....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=015&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=250095033305&rd=1

http://i9.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/92/a5/d352_12.JPG

[donald branscom]

For $60,000 you could have this boat built in steel. You said you have the plans. The Coast Guard would like that. Use all the wood planking for the interior of the steel boat version. Think about it.
Lots of wood for the interior.

Same boat- same fittings- steel hull. Or sell the planking of the wood boat to pay for the steel hull.

[Lucky Luke]

Doncha feel like spending a couple hunnerd on wieenies, beer and marsh mellows about now?

:D
Let s have a beer, right;)

[lannig]

Very interesting thread !
But , is the boat worth saving ??
What I mean by that is : Is it not too late ??
It comes a time when an old wooden boat has been derelict for so long that to restore her to her former glory is impossible short of rebuilding her completely !!
It might be cheaper and faster to just do that !
Replanking a boat this size will take about 4 months for 2 persons !!
I was lucky with mine, 2 or 3 years more and it was the scrap !!
But even now, I wish I would have replanked her completely instead of doing about 40% !!!
Now I know that every few years I will have to replace some planks !!
I find it easier also to replace with new than trying to repair the old !
Get us some pictures and I am shure our resident experts will be more than helpfull !
Best of luck.

Lannig
www.mavourneen-mary.com (http://www.mavourneen-mary.com)

[NealmCarter]

A local yard needed to keep their crew busy during the off season. There was a rotten Consolidated in the yard. They stripped the hull to bare wood, then they troweled on 3M 5200 (they bought a 55 gallon drum of the goop)...then they covered the still wet 5200 with C-Flex, they shot stainless staples thru the C-Flex ...let the whole thing set up for a few weeks, then faired it with vinylester & micro ballons....its not 15 years later and theres cobwebs in the bilge! I thought it was stupid, but seeing is believing!

[Rick Starr]

...cold molt...

There may be something to that...

[neiltd]

Hi
Yes the boat is definitely worth saving, as I'm sure you'll agree when I eventually get around to posting some photos - but I'm not sure if it's worth saving traditionally.

Gary, I did think about concrete sheathing. A friend of mine recently finished concreting a 50' trawler and it looks good... but not sure for my boat.

Donald, Interesting what you say about rebuilding her in steel. One of my original ideas was to rebuild the boat using a tried and tested composite construction method. From what I understand, forces on the boat when sailing are directed through mast and rigging (via chainplates) to mast step (resulting on an enormous force - up to 10*mass of boat on step i'm told). If I were to build a strong internal iron/steel structure to accommodate these loads, and cold mold the outside, could this be a way of saving the boat? I do have detailed sketches/ideas on this concept and can post sketches of what my plans were if anyone is interested. The boat should be able take this extra weight as I've already dug about 4 tons of concrete out of the bilges...

Also interesting hearing of other alternative methods...
Neil

[Gary E]

Neil,
If I was you, and considering the project that you are, that would mean I'd have a bank acct really really full of money I really dont need for anything other than play. What I'd do is buy that boat I pictured in the above photo and have something to play with NOW. Then if I still wanted to restore that "project" after playing with the above boat, I'd still have my toy to play with as the "project" was in process... it's gona be a long long long process.

Good luck

[neiltd]

Gary,
Yes, the above is a great boat. But I already do have a play boat. It's a 40' double ender from 1949. I sailed it transatlantic two years ago and still play on it regularly. My project is going to be a long process. I'm allowing 4 years or more after I start next year. Still saving...
Neil

[Bob Smalser]

Hi
Yes the boat is definitely worth saving, as I'm sure you'll agree when I eventually get around to posting some photos - but I'm not sure if it's worth saving traditionally.




Have any idea what the moisture content swings are from season to season down there in the (I presume) humid tropics? Have you taken any seasonal moisture content readings of cold-molded, encapsulated boats moored locally? If you don't, you won't be able to predict at all whether your 8/4 (?) yellow pine planking will be held in check by a few thin layers of veneer and epoxy.

Is the planking flatsawn or VG? Your planking isn't of a stable species like mahogany, teak or most cedars.....in fact, it will move almost twice as much seasonally as mahogany. Every 10 crossgrain feet of your yellow pine planking from sheer to keel can move 3/4" with a 2% swing in moisture content, 1 1/2" with a 4% swing, and 2 1/4" with a (typical) 6% swing. Picture the center lams of a 10' sheet of plywood moving an inch or more in opposition to immovable surface lams every 6 months, and it's not difficult to picture the plywood disintegrating in the course of a couple cycles. And you have to factor in the tremendous force solid 8/4 stock moves with compared to a few veneer laminations.

Can you even bring this bare hull down to the 10% EMC optimum for epoxy in your climate and the season you plan to work in?

You may wind up with major problems anyway, but without this level of research and preparation, you are surely inviting them.

[donald branscom]

Hi
Yes the boat is definitely worth saving, as I'm sure you'll agree when I eventually get around to posting some photos - but I'm not sure if it's worth saving traditionally.

Gary, I did think about concrete sheathing. A friend of mine recently finished concreting a 50' trawler and it looks good... but not sure for my boat.

Donald, Interesting what you say about rebuilding her in steel. One of my original ideas was to rebuild the boat using a tried and tested composite construction method. From what I understand, forces on the boat when sailing are directed through mast and rigging (via chainplates) to mast step (resulting on an enormous force - up to 10*mass of boat on step i'm told). If I were to build a strong internal iron/steel structure to accommodate these loads, and cold mold the outside, could this be a way of saving the boat? I do have detailed sketches/ideas on this concept and can post sketches of what my plans were if anyone is interested. The boat should be able take this extra weight as I've already dug about 4 tons of concrete out of the bilges...

Also interesting hearing of other alternative methods...
Neil

Building the Frame and deck beam at the position where the mast is located would not be diffacult at all.
USE STEEL NOT stainless. you could have the whole weldment hot dip galvinized.
It would take a lot of the stress off of the hull but the forestay and back stay tension would still be there.
Try to get a pin thru the mast at the deck beam so that the deck beam cannot flex up and down.
The side stays and mast with corresponding frame and deck beam is like a bow and arrow when viewed from fore or aft views.
Draw that on a piece of paper if you cannot visualize it.
Good luck with your project. It is a beautiful boat.
I think the real challenge is to keep the repairs economical and timely so you do not get discouraged.
Replace those "iron" bolts with steel. DO NOT USE stainless!
Also if you coat the bolts with epoxy and let them dry before pounding them it will keep the oxygen away from them.

Oh that thing about just buying another boat that is already finished.
I can imagine an Australian saying something like "But where's the sport?"

[donald branscom]

I just thought of a way you can save a lot of MONEY and time on your project.
Instead of REMOVING the old bolts and pounding in new bolts
just drill a hole next to the old one, then drill a few inches away
and put in the new bolt. Removing those old bolts could take a lot of time and coat a lot in labor. Just skip that completely.
If you do not like the look of the old bolt just cut off (cut off blade) and paint over it.

[paladin]

old bolts left in wood...especially fasteners that are corroded...will create/accelerate rot/iron sickness.....or so I've been told....

[Hughman]

I think yellow pine will overpower the sheathing as described. Your belief that it won't get wet is a long shot, I'm thinking - quite a risk.

You say you need frames, floors, fastenings, stem, deadwood(?), keel bolts(it's a given). Only the planking is salvageable, and it is compromised with an incompatible material glued to it -( I am suggesting the hardwood will move differently than the pine).

Your solution, being based on the idea that the boat could be slathered with goo in a short time using cheap untrained labor- because you live a half a world away- would be cheaper than a traditional fix.

Do I have the situation in hand, here?

I recognise the skill/time dilemma, but it is the critical problem to be solved in this case. Applying goo will cost a lot, and in the end will be a financial loss (noting, of course, that boats are not investments anyway), as the boat will not be saleable after being so treated.

If it were me, I'd remove all the planking, replace the framing, etc. and cut the splines off and re plank edge-to edge, and add a new pine plank as a shutter. How iron sick is the pine anyway? probably not as bad as the oak!

[Pericles]

Has any consideration been given to using the hull as a mould and cold moulding a copy using marine ply in strips and epoxy resin to form the basic hull. Then finish the outside with mahogany veneers laid parallel and increase the scantlings by further cold moulding inside the hull. That way a number of hulls could be constructed that would the prospect of longer life than the repaired original. Help the parent vessel breed.:):):)

Pericles

[Bob Smalser]

I don't believe you have the planking species tied down either, 'pitch" being a generic name applying to all Southern Yellow Pines of the period.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Pinus_rigida_NOAA.jpg/240px-Pinus_rigida_NOAA.jpg

Even in the 1930's, the real Pitch Pine (Pinus rigida) was a relatively small, twisted, knotty tree unlikely to produce long runs of thick, clear planking stock for a 65' boat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_pine

The big southern timber trees of the 1930's producing durable planking stock were primarily Longleaf and Slash Pine, with Longleaf being longer-lived and more common. We can key out a sample and see, but your planking is most likely to be Longleaf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longleaf_pine

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/silvics_manual/Volume_1/pinus/palustris.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slash_pine

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

In support of what Bob has written, the "standard spec" for good pine planking in British yards at the time was "Pensacola long leaf pitch pine".

Old British boatbuilders' specs for imported timber are often at a slight tangent to reality as perceived in the lands where the trees grew
(cf "Oregon Pine", "British Colombian Pine", "Canadian Rock Elm", "Rangoon Teak", etc!) but I reckon what was happening here was that boatbuilders were asking for pitch pine and getting long leaf pine - which is very good stuff!

[Gary E]

Ok... how bout this... it's STEEL and 70 ft long
Transplant whatever you want from the old wood one and maybe even the rig will fit...

http://i22.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/94/2d/8e22_12.JPG

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=010&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=200092498708&rd=1&rd=1

[neiltd]

Hi,
I've just been away for the weekend and unable to view internet, so,
good to have some positive feedback on a composite construction method. Thanks Donald for the constructive advice. All old iron would be removed anyway as part of the process. Planking on plans is shown as pitch pine but I'm not sure what species... Boat was built in England in 1937. Planks do not have any form of iron sickness, just the oak.
Waiting for a friend to send me some digital photos so I can post them.
I'm very interested in the steel frame composite method so any more experiences or sources of research would be appreciated. Thanks again, Neil

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Well, 1937 was a good year for boatbuilding in England - the economy had recovered enough for plenty of boats to be built and there were ample supplies of good material and the boatbuilders to use them.

My boat was built in England in 1937; teak planked on oak frames.

If she retains her shape, and the shelves, clamps and stringers are good, I would not be too concerned about renewing frames.

[neiltd]

photos of my boat. The masts have been taken out and are now in storage, and I have built a long term cover since taking these. I hope you agree she's worth saving...

http://64.4.19.250/cgi-bin/getmsg/Neilsboat1.jpg?&msg=E598D526-6D69-4953-8C97-79AC0D15A610&start=0&len=422211&mimepart=8&curmbox=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&b=de5bdfcd7fa879a32cf56989d6fcf5a5&disk=10.1.106.207_d2871&login=ntppd&domain=hotmail%2ecom&hm___sig=ca888d9c01c770a2ff6428b35a3ca2ff7c9f95fe3 342ea5b


http://64.4.19.250/cgi-bin/getmsg/Neilsboat2.jpg?&msg=E598D526-6D69-4953-8C97-79AC0D15A610&start=0&len=422211&mimepart=9&curmbox=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&b=de5bdfcd7fa879a32cf56989d6fcf5a5&disk=10.1.106.207_d2871&login=ntppd&domain=hotmail%2ecom&hm___sig=ca888d9c01c770a20508bb606f1e913b94f3d2d3d c7cb535


http://64.4.19.250/cgi-bin/getmsg/neilsboat3.jpg?&msg=E598D526-6D69-4953-8C97-79AC0D15A610&start=0&len=422211&mimepart=10&curmbox=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&b=de5bdfcd7fa879a32cf56989d6fcf5a5&disk=10.1.106.207_d2871&login=ntppd&domain=hotmail%2ecom&hm___sig=ca888d9c01c770a2be6f29012326e385a33fb077e fb066cf

http://64.4.19.250/cgi-bin/getmsg/neilsboat4.jpg?&msg=E598D526-6D69-4953-8C97-79AC0D15A610&start=0&len=422211&mimepart=11&curmbox=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&b=de5bdfcd7fa879a32cf56989d6fcf5a5&disk=10.1.106.207_d2871&login=ntppd&domain=hotmail%2ecom&hm___sig=ca888d9c01c770a20c4e6f77047e2ad1455e0d7c7 d99dd26

[neiltd]

OK I'll try again. I did a copy and paste last time but for some reason they didn't show up

http://64.4.19.250/cgi-bin/getmsg/Neilsboat1.jpg?&msg=E598D526-6D69-4953-8C97-79AC0D15A610&start=0&len=422211&mimepart=8&curmbox=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&b=8bf8dbd9e9c7b5d50ef88829a81eb0cc&disk=10.1.106.207_d2871&login=ntppd&domain=hotmail%2ecom&hm___sig=77b61c9301c770a4388591ab76b56528a3585e02a 205a0a9


http://64.4.19.250/cgi-bin/getmsg/Neilsboat2.jpg?&msg=E598D526-6D69-4953-8C97-79AC0D15A610&start=0&len=422211&mimepart=9&curmbox=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&b=8bf8dbd9e9c7b5d50ef88829a81eb0cc&disk=10.1.106.207_d2871&login=ntppd&domain=hotmail%2ecom&hm___sig=77b61c9301c770a4e795dc3e013ccc99b08d57795 88ee4cb


http://64.4.19.250/cgi-bin/getmsg/neilsboat3.jpg?&msg=E598D526-6D69-4953-8C97-79AC0D15A610&start=0&len=422211&mimepart=10&curmbox=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&b=8bf8dbd9e9c7b5d50ef88829a81eb0cc&disk=10.1.106.207_d2871&login=ntppd&domain=hotmail%2ecom&hm___sig=77b61c9301c770a42cdbd776546c7474692d13838 d849127


http://64.4.19.250/cgi-bin/getmsg/neilsboat4.jpg?&msg=E598D526-6D69-4953-8C97-79AC0D15A610&start=0&len=422211&mimepart=11&curmbox=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&b=8bf8dbd9e9c7b5d50ef88829a81eb0cc&disk=10.1.106.207_d2871&login=ntppd&domain=hotmail%2ecom&hm___sig=77b61c9301c770a48ef8edebb91cf6efd274ac389 e5f83ea

[Excalibur]

I can't see the pics, but it may be the firewall I live behind, all web based mail sites like hotmail are denied me. I know that you are convinced the composite solution is the way to go, but I still think you will spend more money going that route. If you do the frame and floors first (which you are going to do anyway) couldn't you use low skilled carpentry labor to remove the good planking, rip off the splines, and put the planking back on? You could then respine correctly and Bob's your uncle.

[Tom Robb]

His mind was made up before he asked.
Sage advice and reason have nothing to do with it.
This seems to be a sort of quasi-troll.
Keep-em coming with yes-buts.
Remember Games People Play which was a hipster psycho-babble read back in the 70s?
Remember the guy who wanted to buy a derelict wood boat to live on while in college?
Pity about the boat.

[John B]

plenty of old boats have been skinned historically.timber, glass or concrete.. I can think of three local boats to each method just off the top of my head.
I don't see it as a troll.
I hate the idea of concrete though. You have to be able to sleep at night and that just turns my stomach.

Iris, reputably 1870 ish Bristol Channel pilot cutter type( I've seen it described as a revenue cutter as well)
concrete sheathed in the 80's some time .
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid148/pf4eca52d2ff317d2c8bf2b2f7a1f8580/f61b77e1.jpg
Arcturus, the Alden 390 was suffering badly from fastening on top of resfasting etc. she was perforated like a roll of toilet paper.
cold moulded and glassed on most of her original plugged planks. Its a magnificent boat. I'd have it like a shot.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid17/pd4dc53ad86f85dbc100ad165ca8b5876/fdf6b79b.jpg

[Mad Scientist]

Here's a reply, possibly without merit...

Choose a Naval Architect (NA) of your choice...

Send the drawings to your NA...

Explain that you want to change your 'plank-on-frame' boat to a 'cold-molder' style...

Forget about salvging the planks...

Your NA will generate a 'framing schedule' for a cold-molder.

(I assume that the frame spacing/style might vary between these hull types...)

Rebuild this boat as a 'cold-molder'.

Well, it's worth a try...I hope that this posting will generate many replies fron NA's - every time I am proven wrong, I learn something...

[Lucky Luke]

John B: I thought Arcturus was built in steel...! She is a gorgeous boat, for sure (and she loves wind;)!)

There have been many boats, effectively, whose planking (and structure) was so bad that they had to be sheated (concrete, glass, cold molding...)
The most famous French one is Pen Duick (the first of the name): she was the boat of Eric Tabarly s father, and was in a realy bad condition, and Eric s father wanted to get rid of her, but Eric loved that boat so much that he showed all the bad spots to every customer to discourage them from buying her. Finally, he bought the boat from his father, glassed her over (actually made a fiberglass boat over the old hull)...and she is still sailing....without her master, alas....:(
http://www.pixsail.com/photos/ecolenavale/_U5U4823g.jpg

Then, in the present case, the planking is described as good (when will the pictures be visible?), while the fastenings, frames, stem, (and floors?) are finished. So why do something that would/ could be prejudiciable to this good part of the boat instead of repairing/ replacing the bad ones???

Did I miss something?

[John B]

Hi Luke.I'm about 95% certain that Pen Duick actually had a hull moulded over the old boat in glass and then the wooden boat was removed and destroyed. Of course all the fittings etc carried over.
She's a glass replica AFAIK.
I think that like any job, that there is levels of quality and workmanship that apply.
A professional quality job of cold moulding over an existing hull can be very successful.
But I agree, if its repairs done in the traditional way that can save it then thats the best option ultimately.

[Lucky Luke]

This seems to be a sort of quasi-troll.


A sort of quasi...

At least: THAT is a troll:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pe4d4659fc0923d0aeaab22c07d26e3e0/ea2765e8.jpg

(Sorry folks to deviate from this thread, but this troll/ not trooll thing makes me open my trolling valve!)

[Lucky Luke]

Hi Luke.I'm about 95% certain that Pen Duick actually had a hull moulded over the old boat in glass and then the wooden boat was removed and destroyed. Of course all the fittings etc carried over.
She's a glass replica AFAIK.


You can be 100% sure then: the hull of Pen Duick is 15mm. thick, made of 7 layers of heavy guage FRP (+ stiffeners), and the old wood has been discarded, only leaving the ballast in the FRP. Old hull was used as a male mold only. That is why I say that Eric actually made a figerglass boat over the old one. Besides the ballast, all that was good: the fittings, interior, spars, aso...were kept. One must always have in mind that the hull is only 10 to 20% of the price of a whole boat!

When that was done, Pen Duick became the largest FRP boat at that time! An other thing Eric dared doing was to launch the (new) boat upside down and turn her over in the water. Easier sometimes!

That s just an other way to save a boat: re-build her completely. Take for example J class Endeavour: to be able to say that she is the old Endeavour (refit), Huisman only kept the original mast step (700 Kg.!!!). All the rest is new! Not cheap way to do, but good!;)

To summarize: what is good: keep it. What is not good: replace it. It really impossible to repair: do what you can!

[neiltd]

Hello
Well Can't upload my photos on to this site - not really sure what I'm doing... But attached is an url to view them at. If anyone can get them on to this page please feel free...

http://www.imagestation.com/8553857/3928425494

Neil

[Lucky Luke]

Neil:
I can see only one (small!) photo!
To post pics here, do the following:
- Click on the small yellow icon showing like two little mountains
- If your browser asks you if you allow a pop up window, authorize it and cliclk on the icon again. A small pop up window will apprear, prompting you to enter the URL of your picture.
- open your imagestation album, open the picture you want to send, and right click for properties. Then copy/ paste the URL in the pop up window. A line saying: [IMG][...... will appear in the text of your post. Done.

[Hwyl]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p83ff85913f42bc03566bf515aba79195/ea270416.jpg

[neiltd]

http://www.imagestation.com/mypictures/inbox/view.html?id=3928425495&url=http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pdd05924c99ea437a45bc9256eae8e3e9/ea270417.jpg.orig.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/mypictures/inbox/view.html?id=3928425497&url=http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p5ceebbd753d5c9e0cb08493f59de0cc7/ea270419.jpg.orig.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/mypictures/inbox/view.html?id=3928425501&url=http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pec6b7f723eb3d4e209be28fbfc3a62bc/ea27041d.jpg.orig.jpg

Thanks, Still can't paste pictures, but these should be correct links to photos. Neil

[neiltd]

Try again
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pdd05924c99ea437a45bc9256eae8e3e9/ea270417.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p5ceebbd753d5c9e0cb08493f59de0cc7/ea270419.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pec6b7f723eb3d4e209be28fbfc3a62bc/ea27041d.jpg

[Gary E]

Neil,

That sure looks good from here... it's hard to imagine it needs so much repair.

Good luck

[neiltd]

Hi
Andrew, when you say you wouldn't be too bothered about renewing frames - do you mean when cold molding the boat or keeping traditional? Shelves, clamps and stringers are good, along with planking, deck structure and keel. Frames, floors, stem and maybe keelson (needs more investigation) are not good....

Mad scientist, I have considered approaching a naval architect, but want to find someone who understands composite construction. Anyone have any ideas? Weight and strengthwise though, I think keeping planking could be a good option???

Tom, Take a look at the title of this thread again please. I'm not ignoring good advice, just trying to find a sensible way of fixing her that won't require a team of shipwrights working on her for years. If all else fails I will sheath her in concrete...

Luke, Although it does look good, there's lots going on beneath... I'll be over at the boat in May, so will take more detailed photos of problem areas then.

Thanks, Neil

[Lucky Luke]

Hi
... I'll be over at the boat in May, so will take more detailed photos of problem areas then.



Please do...and post them in larger size, please.

[lannig]

Yep ! Definitively worth saving :D :D :D
Keep us posted !

Lannig
www.mavourneen-mary.com (http://www.mavourneen-mary.com)

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Neil,

I was thinking of staying traditional, but you would have to "do" them either way.

So far as I can judge from the pictures, she hasn't lost shape, so things are not so bad.

My first move would be to get the sticks down and get a good all over cover made and fitted, before the dreaded rainwater gets to work.

Your mention of a keelson makes me ask whether she has wood floors? And are the bilges cemented? You may be in for a pleasant surprise.

The frames can be tackled one by one; the worst part of the job (by far!) is removing the cabin fittings (carefully!) to get at them.

[Lucky Luke]

Neil,
Your mention of a keelson makes me ask whether she has wood floors? And are the bilges cemented? You may be in for a pleasant surprise.


sorry my dear, but I think these question have already been answered:
(from Neil s first post): Oak stem also suffers from iron sickness from iron floors.
(from Neil post 03-23-07): The boat should be able take this extra weight as I've already dug about 4 tons of concrete out of the bilges...

[neiltd]

Also,
masts are down and stored under cover. I've built a bamboo structure on top of the boat and made a very dry and strong full length cover (7' headroom). I've gutted the interior (drawing of each section and labelled) so when I'm on the boat I live on deck. Keelson doesn't look too bad, but not so sure where stem sits on keelson - stem ends as mast step.
Neil

[Stephen]

Nice looking boat. Definitely looks worth restoring and will be a rewarding project. You say you have plans - do you know who the designer or builder is? What do you know of her history?
As for the necessary repairs - I would stick to the original construction methods of the boat and would only look to sheathing the bottom as a very last resort. Looks like there is much to work with - judging from your photos. Got any photos of the frames/keel/pieces in question?
You might also consider draping some tarps or sheets down to keep the heat off the bottom - or slap some temporary white paint over that black antifoul.
Sounds like so far you are on the right track of covering/protecting her.

[Puka]

Neil, I identify with your delemma.
We are still wrestling with ours after 3yrs! (One trying to dry her out) Pukka is only half the size!
Most all the labour is our own, and on weekends.

If Pukka had been caulked plank on frame, I would not have gone down the road I did. It was a marginal decision anyway. I do have to believe in the physics.
Knowing where to "draw the line" on a rebuild is, difficult.

Pukka will sail again. ( I keep telling myself.)

http://www.imagestation.com/album/index.html?id=2120245606

[John B]

I've been trying to think which boats she reminds me of. She's like a heavier Latifa or a much bigger Maud.. both Fifes.
What design is she?

[neiltd]

Pukka, Nice boat - I can see why it's taken so long... Not so sure if I could turn my boat over to cold mold though - also don't really want to remove the keel. I'm trying to find a naval architect at the moment who could tell me if composite is a viable option and how to procede - if it is viable.

Stephen/john, the designer is Fred Shepherd - He's done a few well known boats including Arthur Ransome's 'Selina King'. I can see resemblance to some Fifes though.

I'm lokking forward to getting started though...

Neil

[Puka]

Phoenix is way prettier. Still, Pukka is family, warts an all.
Just gotta look at the right profile.
Good luck with the project.....and do listen to the NA. ;) (Or 2!)

[pipefitter]

I saw once where they took an old pine planked shrimper,replaced the frames and then left the shape or transition planks in place and bucked and regapped the planks and put stealers in. The stealers ended up the correct shape as the rest of the planks. Anywhere else,they made up the space,splitting the difference by enlarging the original stealers that were in the boat.Took a crew of 3, nine months to get it done and caulked. The boat was then heavily fished for over 10 years and then resold in as near restored condition minus some paint and recaulking.I wish that back then,that I thought documentation of such processes would be a novel thing to have.

[py]

Maybe you could fibreglass the hull, then pour in some sort of acid to dissolve all the wood up to just below the sheer?

[Excalibur]

Or if he went concrete, he could just burn the wood out.

[neiltd]

Pipefitter, sorry, but what exactly are stealers? Never came accross that term before...

[Figmental]

Have you read , "How to Cover Wooden Boats with Fiberglass", by Allan Vaitses? It is very well written by a man who did the work for years and covers vessels he rated as proven to work.
Vaitses said that if well done, the process will dry out a wet hull and slow down the spread of rot. His overlays were thick reinforced hulls built over and mechanically attached to the original hull. Most folks here will pooh pooh the idea but the book will give you an education not to be found anywhere else. If you Google, " Vaitses Overlay", you will find that the USCG has recognized the technique in it's reports as an alternative repair method.
Vaitses would put 10-12 layers of mat sometimes resulting in 3/4" on the hull and wrapped the keel to get up to 1 1/2". The book also gives ways to do a ruddertube, propshaft tube, and centerboard trunk liner. Not a quick and dirty job at all, but well planned and executed.
Burn me at a stake if you will. but I think at times it's the right thing to do with certain boats.
David

[John B]

They've just done that to Windhaven here.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid156/p43972cd0f2224a5ec04221e8ed2213a8/f54569c1.jpg

[pipefitter]

Stealers,from my understanding(remember I am in the South and there is a whole other language here) were odd shaped filler planks that may not have gone from stem to stern and could end in a point between planks. In the instance of the shrimper I mentioned,the bottom section of planking from chine to keel could not easily be worked out evenly to arrive at the sheer and it was because of an extreme flair near the stem. They opted to have evenly spiled planking as far as they could and then filled in the transition between the sections with a stealer or cheater so that the planking above were true from stem to stern or that so the rest of the planks could be the same size. The old man that explained the process to me(over 30 yrs now) said that now that the planking had shrunk as much as it was ever going to,felt that the boat would enjoy a better life and hold caulking better than it ever had.As far as he was concerned,those were all proven planks and worth their weight in gold. The boat looked no different than when it had been originally built. Between rejointing some plank edges and resetting all the caulk lands,they were able to absorb it with a whole extra plank or so if I recall correctly and any new wood was up near the sheer.

[warwick]

Neil, can sympathise with you, I am 3/4 the way through a sheathing project, it's a lot of work, seriously consider rotating the hull, more efficient work method and faster, let gravity be your friend. Removing the ballast helps with drying the keel and an opportunity to ream out the keel bolt holes to allow an epoxy bed around the bolts, I would think that perhaps you have read up the Wooden Boat Repair by the Gougeon brothers.