Logs in the river

[djswan]

I can see logs, branches and Misc. Boat Related debris:D If I had to pick a wood boat to go up the river during spring run off in Montana what boats might handle it.

Thanks
Derek

[outofthenorm]

A drift boat, for sure. You can buy one in modern space age materials or build one like Bob Smalser has. Finest kind.

- Norm

[Spokaloo]

I hate this stupid window sometimes. Browser picks the wrong one and POOF! everything you say is gone....

Pacific power dories are a great choice. They can be inboard or outboard, prop or pump. Made for ROUGH water and heavy debris off the Oregon coast, they have to be good for rugged service, and the severe abuse laid upon them in the coastal salmon fishery. Most are also designed to be run fully up the beach.

http://www.boatdesigns.com/products.asp?dept=531
http://www.tracyobrien.com/moreinfo.asp?id=43
http://www.spirainternational.com/hp_pdories.html
http://www.nexusmarine.com/san_juan_dory.html

Me personally Id either go outboard with a prop (hit debris, swing up, drop back down, keep going) carrying spares (2-5), or with an inboard pump setup, possibly raped from a jetski or if you can find one of the small 60-80 hp pumps available, and a small 4 stroke engine like a subaru or an ATV engine of that HP.

Maybe a 100hp sit down jetski motor, hacked into the bottom of a 17' dory hull, thatd go anywhere!

E

[htom]

Logs are a danger. I'm inclined to think that the operator is more important than the boat, though.

[djswan]

Nice stuff Spokaloo, Once again your staring at the same weather I am.

So a outboard with prop and be careful. Carry some spare parts.

Or a jet motor.

I'll try to avoid the logs.

[Spokaloo]

DJ, I used to live in Bozeman, and I remember the rivers in western Montaner look alot like the ones in the Cascades of Or/Wa. Lotta dory hulls, modified pacific dories, and skiff type boats work long hours in those rivers. Keep in mind that a nice McKenzie river drift boat is a hyperbole of the old coastal rowing dories, and that Ive rafted that river MANY times.....

What rivers are you going to run over there?

E

[brad9798]

My 1964 Chris Craft ... with some sense ... :rolleyes:

[djswan]

Karma is good. I got up. logged in. no pun intended. Read the thread. Looked out the window to see the Stillwater river and spot a log floating down the river. I can just see the Flathead river through the trees. I lived for years along the Swan river too.

'64 Chris Craft

How 'bout an old Lee Craft?

[djswan]

I took some pics the other sunny day of my gramps old boat. It's not wood but has some wood on it. I remember hitting a sunken log a time or two as a kid in it. Any help to get me started fixing it up would be great.
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i172/swanwood/Miscboatrelated007.jpg
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i172/swanwood/Miscboatrelated008.jpg
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i172/swanwood/Miscboatrelated010.jpg

[Spokaloo]

DJ you could have that ol girl in the drink in a week!

E

[Bruce Hooke]

Keep in mind that if there are logs floating in the river then the river is likely to be up in the flood stage range. If that is the case, there are other hazards to consider as well, for example the current will be flowing faster and it may be hard to find places to get out of the current to land without running into partially submerged riverside trees or bushes.

Rivers in flood are always more dangerous and should be treated with considerable caution...

[djswan]

A Week! Nooooo. I must find some ways to over complicate this project.

Bruce, there is the most remote of chances that someday I will be using this boat off my roof.:D Is that a piece of dock that just went by.

Some paint and some new wood I know for sure. What else to think about?

[cjp63]

Seen any refrigerators yet today?

[kengrome]

A tunnel stern Seabright Skiff would be just as good as -- if not better than -- a jet drive because it won't clog in moss or weeds, and the prop, shaft and rudder won't be damaged when running over logs and such. These boats were designed to run in shallow water and through the surf and be beached constantly without damage to the drive system.

[djswan]

I have an idea for a Grandpa Munster Dragula coffin boat. What did Herman drive?

A tunnel stern and jet drive. I could see that. How do you bullet proof the bottom of a wood boat?

[Spokaloo]

Ken, Im curious as well.

Im sure your talking about an Atkin/Gerr/Tolman style seabright, as the old Jersey's aren't particularly shallow drafted (they are when compared to the boats of the day, but not compared to the later Atkin types).

How can you put a pump on it that won't clog? I live in an area that jet skis and all pump boats have trouble due to lilly pads and eurasian milfoil. If you can tell me how the pump wont clog, Ill take two!

Ive been fascinated by the tunnel seabrights, but the complexity of the hull shape for building in ply and the engine placement/type/cost have been limiting factors. Have some ideas on the Atkin boat for powering, but want to see a Tolman built and tested before I try to modify Rescue Minor's bilge twist.

DJ, A little wood, a little paint, check the rivets and tighten any seams, replace the knees and breasthook with something meaty, and make sure the sprayrails on the sides are strong, they give some quality lift to those boats.

E

[djswan]

I have to put this one on my list.:)


http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Utilities/RescueMinor.html


I'm on it Spok. Good advise. "Grandpa's little boat" is currently the only boat I have to take my family fishing. I wish we still had the "big one"

[Spokaloo]

Ive got plans for RM, and know a guy up north that has all the frames and the jig finished, but gave up because Dave Gerr showed him that it might not function as one would think. Check out the Renn Tolman version as well, it has very similar lines.

E

[kengrome]

Im sure your talking about an Atkin/Gerr/Tolman style seabright, as the old Jersey's aren't particularly shallow drafted ...Yes this is the type of boat I'm referring to. Apparently I failed to use the term "tunnel-stern" to distinguish between these particular versions of Seabright Skiffs and the older classic versions. Sorry about that.

How can you put a pump on it that won't clog? I live in an area that jet skis and all pump boats have trouble due to lilly pads and eurasian milfoil. If you can tell me how the pump wont clog, Ill take two!I was not suggesting the use of a pump on these boats, I was suggesting these boats INSTEAD of boats that use pumps ... :)

The props, shafts and rudders of tunnel-stern Seabright skiffs are already protected from damage by a stainless steel shoe that runs from the bottom aft end of the box keel to the bottom of the rudder. In the case of Atkins' Shoals Runner this steel shoe extends beyond the end of the rudder and bends upward to attach to the transom, thus providing even better protection than on Rescue Minor. I attached the profiles of both these boats so you can see the difference here.

Ive been fascinated by the tunnel seabrights, but the complexity of the hull shape for building in ply and the engine placement/type/cost have been limiting factors.You're right about these issues, especially the building effort. The bends in the plywood are severe in the aft bottom portion of a tunnel-stern Seabright skiff hull, so this part of the construction is not easy. Strip planking of this section would be far easier.

Regarding the engine issue, it is not that hard to deal with but it does take more time, effort and 'thinking' than just plunking down several thousand dollars for a new outboard and bolting it to your transom. This is probably why most home builders favor outboard powered boats -- regardless of the fact that inboard power is much cheaper when using small industrial engines in small boats.

[kengrome]

Ive got plans for RM, and know a guy up north that has all the frames and the jig finished, but gave up because Dave Gerr showed him that it might not function as one would think. Check out the Renn Tolman version as well, it has very similar lines. I'm curious what Dave Gerr had to say about Rescue Minor that convinced your friend to abandon his build -- especially when Robb White built one and reported tremendous success with his boat!

[kengrome]

Note that I designed a small 12 foot version of a tunnel-stern Seabright skiff to be powered by a cheap and easily repaired or replaced 4-7 HP industrial engine such as a Honda GX or one of those little Yanmar diesels commonly used in construction equipment. Here's a link to a thread with the details, my post is #37 on the page:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16643&page=3

I hope to build it some day soon so I can learn more about how these boats function on a small scale, but I'm busy with the Tolman at the moment.

[Spokaloo]

Ken, I have actually been lurking on boatdesign.net for quite a while, and have not only read that thread, but pulled your drawings and compared them to the RM plans. Nice work BTW. The bow is a little funky to me, but I think in 3 dimensions it might make more sense.

Thanks for the concise reply, I love to share and debate ideas. My bad on the misunderstanding of the pump on the boat.

I have looked at various ways to recreate the bottom shape without using full ply sheets. I think the answer lies in double diagonal. You get the stability and thickness of the ply, while getting the requisite shapes. Robb's boat was an interpretation of the lines of RM, it is not an actual RM. He, as well as most people who have seen the boat, agree that it isn't a representation of Atkin's plans, but more an idea of them. Robb used FAR more curvature in the boat, change dimensions, etc. Its draft and the overall layout are similar, as he kept the proportions of the box keel v. the tunnel v. the wetted area per plan.

Gerr noted that RM's tunnel isnt the appropriate size for the prop. In 3rd person conversations I was told that the prop is too close to the top of the tunnel to work as efficiently as it could, and also would cause a good deal of vibration due to the close proximity. Something about the blades pressurizing the water in front of the blade would be felt through the keel. Guy ( the fellah that was building the boat) is a retired engineer, and has a pretty keen sense of what works, so he held off.

I am absolutely dying to see this Tolman iteration happen. Is it going to be diesel inboard with a transmission? Some have speculated that it will be outboard powered due to the transom notch in the photos, but it wouldn't work that way. Sal's Dad has a very interesting approach with his lower unit idea, will love to see that one come to fruition as well.

Did you get the lines for the Tolman Seabright from the book? From him?

The area in which I live has some shallows and weed beds that are perfectly suited to that boat. I planned on building an RM, but the NINA project came first.

This enough info yet DJ?

E

[kengrome]

Ken, I have actually been lurking on boatdesign.net for quite a while, and have not only read that thread, but pulled your drawings and compared them to the RM plans. Nice work BTW. The bow is a little funky to me, but I think in 3 dimensions it might make more sense.You're right, in the rendered images the curved lower bow panels (Renn calls them 'garboards') looks squished in and concave -- but only in some views. I'm not sure why it looks like this but it won't look that way when I build it. I'm pretty sure of this because I used nearly the same relative dimensions on the bow of this little boat as in my real build of the Tolman Seabright Skiff and the ply naturally bent outward in that section of the Tolman just like it should. It might just be that I need more time using the design software to make it produce better images ... :)

I have looked at various ways to recreate the bottom shape without using full ply sheets. I think the answer lies in double diagonal. You get the stability and thickness of the ply, while getting the requisite shapes.That would certainly work. For me personally, I already solved the plywood twisting problem so I will stick with the plywood.

Gerr noted that RM's tunnel isnt the appropriate size for the prop. In 3rd person conversations I was told that the prop is too close to the top of the tunnel to work as efficiently as it could, and also would cause a good deal of vibration due to the close proximity. Something about the blades pressurizing the water in front of the blade would be felt through the keel. Guy ( the fellah that was building the boat) is a retired engineer, and has a pretty keen sense of what works, so he held off.Thanks for this info, I was concerned that there was a bigger issue involved here that I did not know about. I am well aware of this potential problem myself, it has been in my mind from the beginning. A smaller diameter higher pitch prop will probably eliminate the problem, so I'm not worried about it. If it vibrates I can build the next one a little different, that's all ... :)

I am absolutely dying to see this Tolman iteration happen.Apparently others are too. Personally I think it's about time Americans had a choice of better boats like this, and not just the "If you want one you have to build it yourself" option. I'm hoping there will be enough buyers of these boats to make building them worth my time.

Is it going to be diesel inboard with a transmission?Yes.

Some have speculated that it will be outboard powered due to the transom notch in the photos, but it wouldn't work that way.Renn added the transom notch to his personal boat (the prototype in the pix you're referring to) probably because he wants an outboard kicker. The plans I got from Renn do NOT have a transom notch. Believe me, this boat is designed to be driven by a low power inboard engine -- not an outboard -- and Renn is specifying a diesel of 20-25 HP.

Sal's Dad has a very interesting approach with his lower unit idea, will love to see that one come to fruition as well.He wants to weld an outboard lower unit to his boat, doesn't he? I wouldn't do it that way myself but he has a reason since he already has the lower unit, so it will be interesting to see how well it works.

Did you get the lines for the Tolman Seabright from the book? From him?The book has nothing in it about his new Seabright Skiff. This is a brand new design for Renn, and it is a radical departure from his other three skiffs, all of which are outboards. I got the plans directly from Renn. He and I had been discussing my building his other boats anyways, so when I learned about his new Seabright skiff I decided to build this one instead of the others.

The area in which I live has some shallows and weed beds that are perfectly suited to that boat. I planned on building an RM, but the NINA project came first.Renn's Tolman Seabright Skiff is 22 feet long and he designed it to be offshore capable, just like his other boats. But personally I think there's an opportunity here for someone to design and sell similar boats and/or plans in smaller sizes ... :)

[djswan]

Yes Spok. I am well absorbed with information from this thread.:)

I just had a bad vision of the jerk going upstream amonst the driftboats.:mad:

I remember a few years ago almost snagging a jet skier with big hopper at the end of my flyline. I almost got him but I hurried my cast and the line didn't lay as flat as it should have. So it was a bit short.:D

I could see the practical and respectful use of a boat like this too.:)

Derek

[Spokaloo]

Ken, I am intrigued. Have you wiggled those lines out to about 16'? Say 15'10" or so? Where are you at currently with the skiff? In many states if you have a boat less than 16' and less than 10 hp, you dont have to license it. Thats a helluva niche for a boat like this.

Id like to prototype one of your skiffs after I finish the big boat. Do a little proofing. The water here is about 6" deep in places, and muddy bottomed, so its a prime test bed. PM me if your interested.

Derek, are you starting to lean any direction on a boat?

E

[djswan]

I started leaning today. I cut some wood for the first time in my life going on a boat. It's clamped into place.:D :D Taking stuff off boats has been my forte until today. I feel like a new me.

I think I would like to buy a set of plans for the first time. I'm assuming one could flyfish off Rescue Minor or something similiar.:)

[Spokaloo]

You know, if you are looking to flyfish, check out the lutra laker or the Sportboat from Robb White:

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/nichols/laker/index.htm

http://www.robbwhite.com/sportboat.html

Im esp fond of the sportboat, as it planes with next to no power.

E

[kengrome]

Ken, I am intrigued. Have you wiggled those lines out to about 16'? Say 15'10" or so?As a matter of fact I did. I also narrowed the width to 36 inches at the gunwales, and I made the sides higher, and I put a deck and coaming on it, too. In other words, this particular boat has a new and very different design goal -- a modern replacement for the traditional banca boats used here in the Philippines for offshore fishing.

These renderings should give you an idea of where I'm headed with this particular design, but you will have to imagine the amas (outrigger floats) because I have not added them to the design software yet:

http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/www.bagacayboatworks.com/images/linkfiles/bancaxbb1.png (http://www.incebu.com/bagacayboatworks/images/forumpix/bancaxbb1.png)http://www.bagacayboatworks.com/linkfiles/bancaxbb.png

The covered aft end is where the engine, fuel, etc. will be installed / stored. The weight of these items won't matter because tunnel-stern Seabright hulls lift their aft ends when power is applied instead of squatting like most other power boats. I always appreciate having the engine behind me too since it means less noise, fumes, heat. etc. so I figure others will appreciate this feature as well.

A modification I have in mind for this particular boat (for the American market mostly) is to mount the amas on folding cross beams so they can be fully extended to a width of 8-10 feet for extreme stability in rough seas (like their Philippine banca counterparts) -- yet at other times they can be pulled in tight against the hull thus making the boat only 4 feet wide and capable of sneaking into very narrow channels.

Where are you at currently with the skiff?I took a few new pix of my Tolman Seabright Skiff yesterday and put them online this morning:

www.bagacayboatworks.com/images/seabright02/ (http://bagacayboatworks.com/images/seabright02/)

The shiny parts are places where the glass and epoxy was applied but has not yet been washed or sanded. The older pix are still online on my other web site:

www.tolmanskiffs.com/seabright/ (http://www.tolmanskiffs.com/seabright/)

In many states if you have a boat less than 16' and less than 10 hp, you dont have to license it. Thats a helluva niche for a boat like this.This sounds like good news. Maybe there is a market for boats like these after all ... :)

[Spokaloo]

While I can see how that would be a great boat out in the phillipines with amas, Im thinking its an overgrown canoe for my purposes. Have you tried throwing a 5' beam on it with some wider bilge panels? The outriggers would be a bit excessive here, but a slender boat is an easily driven boat, which I like. If you can put a bit more beam on it, and have it as open as a true RM, I might be interested in picking up a set of plans from you. Panel developments, frame locations, bulkheads, deadwood, etc, itd be a fun build. Im also doing a bit of rapid prototyping when I get done with the big boat, so this would be fun.

I am looking at Renn's hull concept, and RM's side by side. Renn REALLY folded those bilges TIGHT. The RM lines are longer, so I am really curious how well it will flow water. Id say Atkin gave the turn of the bilge 30-40% of the LOA to turn the bilge panels into a tunnel. Renn gave it about 20%. It might almost be like a pocket drive, but we won't know till its done, right?

Keep up the good work. Do you have a motor yet?

How are you liking this threadjack Derek?

E

[djswan]

Thread hijacking is good for my knowledge.:D

Pretty boat Ken, Nice quiet motor at my back. I can see it.:)

[kengrome]

Have you tried throwing a 5' beam on it with some wider bilge panels?Not yet, but I will eventually.

I am looking at Renn's hull concept, and RM's side by side. Renn REALLY folded those bilges TIGHT. The RM lines are longer, so I am really curious how well it will flow water.Renn said he started with the RM bottom just as it is, then he added two feet to the length, most in the bow so he could keep his "Tolman Skiff" bow appearance, and the rest at the stern so he could give the transom its "Tolman Skiff" degree of pitch. I never compared the two myself, I just built according to Renn's plans.

Id say Atkin gave the turn of the bilge 30-40% of the LOA to turn the bilge panels into a tunnel. Renn gave it about 20%.This would seem to be compatible with the fact that Renn lengthened the boat by adding to the ends without otherwise changing the bottom. Or maybe he did change it otherwise and just didn't mention it to me ... ?

Keep up the good work. Do you have a motor yet?No, the EPA likes to regulate imported engines and it looks like some of the best new diesel engines made in China these days are not available for import because the manufacturers are too small to "jump through the hoops" required by EPA for certification of their engines, or they do not have the funds for it, or if they have the funds they see no reason to pursue EPA certification when they can sell as many engines as they can manufacture right here in Asia.

Unless I can get an 'exception' for one of these engines Americans might well be stuck using the few engines that are already EPA approved and cost 3-5 times as much as the newer and better engineered models available today. But Americans really do not mind spending lots of money for what they think are 'better' products anyways, so I probably shouldn't be concerned about the cost of the engines going into these boats.

How are you liking this threadjack Derek?Yes Derek, I apologize for participating in the hijacking of your thread! At first I posted only to suggest a different type of boat that should be able to handle running over underwater obstacles without damage. Then I got so wrapped up in the conversation about these particular boats that I never thought about it again.

I think it's time for me to go away now ... ;)

[Spokaloo]

Ken, have you looked at a gasoline version? There might be a market there as well. I know there are a substantial number of grey market diesels coming through, as well as a handful of others that are certified. Have you considered marinizing Kubotas?

Whats your timeline like on the Tolman setup?

E

[kengrome]

Ken, have you looked at a gasoline version?Yes, and apparently there are more certified gas than diesel engines, so I may go with a gas engine instead, especially on the smaller boats. I would like to use a diesel on the Tolman however, since that's what Renn specifies.

Have you considered marinizing Kubotas?Yes, but they are not common over here so I was hoping to use a different engine, one that puts out the same HP but costs about 1/4 the price and appears to be extremely well engineered. Unfortunately the EPA will probably see to it that I cannot use this engine.

Whats your timeline like on the Tolman setup?This is the first one I have built so I am doing as much as I can every day. I will probably have it finished and ready to ship in a month or two, assuming the engine issue doesn't hold me up -- and assuming Renn has finished the prototype and sent me the final installment of the plans soon enough so I can get everything else finished by then.

[Spokaloo]

Well good luck with the building. I think your in the same situation I am with my boat. Get as much done each and every day as physically possible. If you could, keep us informed on this project as much as you can. I think theres probably 50 or so of us that have really been interested in the tunnel stern boats.

I need a shallow draft (6") but powerful boat where I live for pulling idiots off the mud flats when they get stuck not paying attention. If Renn's hull works out as well as RM, I think I might pick up a set of plans. I also am quite interested in your 15' boat, if you can poke the sides out to that 5'ish range.

Take care

E

[ProaRotorhead]

I don't know much about rivers, but I'm always driving my wooden proa up onto coral heads, rocky beaches and such. Stout construction and a thick layer of truck bed liner on the bottom (yes, truck bed liner...I know, very untraditional, but it is easy to use, available, and easy to re-coat). Have fun, I know I do...
http://home.hawaii.rr.com/rotorheadland/8003/94549.jpg