Am I Crazy? (careful now)

[True Love]

This a 1950 danish built 22 sq meter, 41 feet long, allegedly rebuilt in 1985ish but no survey or list of "things repaired" is known to exist. They're asking $2500.

I'd appreciate your input!

[True Love]

I must be crazy 'cuz I forgot to post the photo link: http://www.ofoto.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?UV=12744605950_10059324503&US=0&collid=28635424503

[Rich VanValkenburg]

Maybe not :D Looks like the auction is closed.

Rich

[True Love]

Rich - yes the auction is closed but the boat is still for sale - these are the pics the owner sent me.

By the way, I talked to Don yesterday and Trident is still for sale. He says he was offered $16k and turned it down. He also says that he has someone interested in some of her "parts" -- I assume that means sails. He also says he has her listed w/a broker in Wisconsin.

TL

[Noah]

Funny, I just got the same set of Pics. The seller must have a couple of us thinking about biting. I will be heading out that way in Sept if it is still for sale to take a look.

In my opinion this boat has major problems. Many of the floors have seperated from the planking, leading me to think that the deck beams must not be doing their job (or maybe something else). At the least it would take many new floors and keel bolts to make right, and that might be the tip of the ice burge. It is pretty hard to tell if the Keel, Stem, and Sternpost are still ok or not.

That said, I'm still kinda interested.

Noah

[True Love]

Noah, it's hard to tell from the pics, but is she true to the centerline? In the masthead support photo, it looks like the support board is off center. And some of the keel boats look off center. I can't tell if that's due to the angle the photo was shot at or not.

I doubt I'll take much more interest in her but if you see her, let me know what you find. The floors do look to be in bad shape.

[True Love]

keel BOLTS, not boats - sheesh the mind sure goes after 40.

[rkrough]

That boat is in rough shape to be just 17 years old. Looks like it has been on the hard for a long time.

[Rich VanValkenburg]

I think it's just the angle the photo was taken. Also looks like it's been glassed above the waterline. Lots of goop-looking stuff hanging around the floors, and maybe even some kind of goop used as fileting on each frame in her belly. (hard to tell)

Check this link out. Go to the 'Bildgalleri'. Lots of boat porn to show you what you can end up with, and that's what will drive you to buy or not. http://surf.to/22klubben

Rich

[Noah]

The pictures I got sent are much larger, so it is easier to see what is going on.

It looks to me like someone tried to put 5200 between the floors and the planks in an effort to keep everything together. I don't think that it worked.

I don't believe that the topsides were fiberglassed, and the present seller didn't mention it on the phone.

The boat was last in the water 3 years ago, and was raced pretty seriously about 8-10 years ago.

I still don't know why the floors would be "shrinking" or why the planking would be getting wider. The seller said that all the ribs were in good condition with no cracks or rot.

He also said she didn't leak at the mooring but undersail she took on some water. No doubt from the crappy floors that aren't doing anything.

Here is a close up of one of the worst.

http://www.morebutter.com/stick/22sqmfloor.jpg

Oh well, it would be a good winter project.

Noah

[paladin]

uh..yup...a coupla dozen loooonnng winters.... :D

[True Love]

Noah, may I come sailing on her when you get her finished? Burlington is one of my favorite towns - such a beautiful place.

[Noah]

Well replacing floors isn't such a bad job, but if there are other problems...then it can get nasty. I got through a whole bunch of floors and keel bolts in my Folkboat this spring. I found the easiest way to build them was in laminates. I would fit each 4" piece of black locust to the hull, then go on to the next that lay on top of it. Once I had the 5 pieces fit (floors were about 17” high) , I would draw a line down both sides indicating where I should put the new keel bolt. I then took all 5 pieces home and drilled them in the drill press. After that I brought them all back to the boat, mixed the epoxy fitted them on to the bolt, and tightened the bolt. I got a great glue job in place, and the fitting was perfect. Making the whole thing out of the hull then fitting it would have been harder, especially for the lapstrake hull, with the steps that are different depending on the side of the hull.

Anyway, my real question about this boat isn't the work it would take to rebuild, but is this the boat that I want? I'm planning to keep my Folkboat for cruising and fun sailing, but I want a competitive PHRF boat that is still classic. I really like sailboat racing, and I think that it makes me a much better sailor.

It seems that Wednesday nights are doomed to light air, so I want a classic boat that can move in 5-10 knots happily. I already have the Folkboat that kicks butt in 10-30 knots of breeze.

Rich and others, how do these boats handle light air? It doesn't have all that much wetted surface area, but still it is a small rig for a boat of that size. I wouldn't feel too terrible giving it a larger main (I already did the with the Folkboat while still retaining the ability to use the original sails) but I don't want another dog. Chances are that I would also have an Asymmetrical Spinnaker built, as they are easy to handle, and fun to sail.

Do others have a recommendation for a fast good PHRF boat? I have looked at the 5-meter boats and it seems that some of them do well, but I want a bit more room and a more "social" cockpit. Ultimately I want to be able to race the boat with 3, and sail with 5-6 friends on weekends.

Noah

[Rich VanValkenburg]

Noah, some of the most fun I've had on Sonja was in light air with a big, 170 genoa. Only drawback is downwind. She's a dog without a kite, and I never had one of those.
The long overhangs are there for heavier air windward performance, and in light air the 27' or so of waterline length make it scoot like the old Soverel 26 I raced on.

You don't want to mess with a bigger main on these boats, either. The competion back then to produce the fastest hull to the 1925 sq m rule wound up seeing something like pencils with sails. Check the beam measurements on the www.sskf.se (http://www.sskf.se) web site under 'Matrikel'. Sonja is 38'4" x 6'5". A larger main will hurt you or the boat, or both. Weather helm on Sonja as she is now gets pretty violent when approaching 8 knots hull speed. It scares the crap outta ya. It's really a headsail-driven design.

I'm wondering how in heck can a floor do that? Are they all like that? Something serious went wrong there. Those boats were light-built for the most part and it's possible that it sagged it's draft some and pulled loose from the floors. I've seen a few 30 sqm's where every third frame was steel to counteract that sagging action.

And I agree with the several long winters comment. Been there...and still.

Rich

[ 08-18-2002, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: Rich VanValkenburg ]

[Noah]

Rich thanks for the info. I'm not totally sure what boat is going to be the one that I want. Your comments definately helped though. Interesting to hear about the weatherhelm. My Folkboat has very little, so it isn't something that I think about that much. Infact, my Folkboat is almost totally a "mainsail" boat, while the 22's are "headsail" boats.

Maybe in a month I will be able to see the boat and figure out what the hell is going on with it. BTW, it is a tight seamed boat, built like many
of the dragons. No caulking is supposed to be used.

Noah

[John B]

Might be a lemon, might be the find of your life.
A boat like that for 2500.!!Worth a serious/proper look surely.

[Bayboat]

To Noah and others interested in that 22 square advertised recently on ebay: Those photos may well only show the "tip of the iceberg" as far as needed repairs and rebuilding are concerned. As I told True Love in an email, before any commitment and before you fall irreversibly in love with the boat, have a survey by someone competent in surveying old wooden boats. It will give you an idea of just what and how much will be involved in putting her in safe, seaworthy condition.
In that gallery of pictures by the 22Klubben is "Lalla," now in Milwaukee. The pictures were taken before the rebuild started. Her rebuild and conversion to a 30 square is just about complete, a beautiful job by very able professionals.

[True Love]

Thank you for your insights, Bayboat. I appreciate it very much. -- TL

[SCOTTY]

The 22 square meter that you are taking about is a very sailable boat. The reason it has to be sold is that its owned by a SEA EXPLOYER ORGIN. that has been at its location for almost 45 years. The City of Milwaukee has decided in its stupid reasons that they want there land back. the scouting unit is losing its building and its land to store the boat, as well as all there boats. There are few people out here that can handle what it takes to maintain a wooden boat and that is the reason for the sale at that price. She was racing great in Chicago when she was donated to the unit, she came with all the go fast items there were out there. She does have a check in the keel timber that leaks under heavy sail pressure. But she is a great deal.. My reasons for not buying her is that i have a 22 square meter and a univ Q in my back yard and shed now and that more than i can handle