Observations on Airlie and Nova Scotian boat building......

[NuSKcalB]

Setting a record straight:

As one of many 'non-couch potatos' who have viewed and commented upon the progress of Airlies restoration in a constructive manner, it is perhaps time to clarify what I believe is a general concensus of opinion.

Many of us who post in the Building/Repair Section are actively involved in the building/restoration/overhauling of wooden vessels and their systems. We have seen the results of neglect, incorrect procedures and inappropriate material choices. Often these have resulted on costly re-working for either the existing, or of an 'unknowing' new owner.

Seeing photos posted of a classic vessel under repair excites even the most 'steady' of us but it can also set alarm bells ringing. When we see things being done, that don't appear to be what is generally considered to be, the 'right' way, we are motivated to express an opinion.

I don't mean to suggest that the 'old way is the only way' and that the modern technical advances should be ignored - it's more a case that if someting is being done, it should be done in the most cost effective, and lasting way.

I am sure that many would agree that failures due to inapropriate material choices represent the majority of 'down the road issues' that we see. Seeing some of these 'issues in the making' with Airlies rebuild have lead to the many comments raised.

It is possible that Jamie has fiscal or time constraints that have determind choices or it could be that he is not supervising 24/7 - we are not to know or indeed pass judgement. Our comments are not directed at Jamie in a personal way however, Airlie is Jamies boat and he's paying to have her restored/rebuilt into his new home. Surely we would be failing in our duties if we didn't point out issues that were felt might not prevent Airlie from meeting his immediate expectaions and in the longer term, her durability?

Wooden boat building has a fine historical tradition and those of us involved in it today want the reputation and attraction of such fine vessels to carry on into perpetuity. Only through the use of the best (or most appropriate) materials, methods and practices can this happen.(hence the reason I in particular, ask some very probing questions)

I am proud to be part of that continuum - in the current 'mass produced' climate, where many ways are dying out, there is a resurgence in wooden boat building and restoration, particularly now in Nova Scotia where new, dynamic and vibrant yards, are taking up the reins being dropped by others.

In a forum such as this, we should not be afraid to question or to offer constructive advice/comment/observation - yes, we speak our minds: but from the heart, not the pocket book!

[erster]

Boy does the latest events on this issue ring a bell. If I want mud, or slime, there is a section that is filled with that each day, and seems to be at the top of its game each day. These projects matters only to two people or in the case of a new build, the one that is paying the tab. If you wait for everyones opinion to form an opinion, you will have no opinion and nothing to show for your time of indecision. Jamie, time to wonder up to the north and give up the forum for your own piece of mind..

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I try not to post too much about stuff up here in terms of right way /wrong way.... just starts an argument.

That said, I have always felt my most valuable and costly resource is my time. I don't tend to use anything but proven marine products, because I don't think I can outthing major companies that make stuff for the industry at a very high level. I also try to recognize good workmanship and materials in other peoples boats, and ask questions.

What I do question often is what I pay for said materials and shop very hard to find the best possible price. I find there is a wide variance.

[NuSKcalB]

and your point erster?

is there something wrong with expressing an opinion - esp. when something is submitted for public opinion/scrutiny?

For your info, many of us know both Jamie, and Airlie and are genuinely looking out for both their best interests.

NuS

[paladin]

Since I am a newbie to boatbuilding....in that I started with plywood and ended with strip planking and veneer....I cannot begin to give advice on the right or wrong way to build conventional wooden boats. I know what has worked for me and given me the most enjoyment and service for dollar invested...in that respect I wait for the most experienced to give their opinions. I know that if a boat has steam bent oak ribs, that the owner may prefer to replace them with steam bent oak, where I would have a tendency to laminate new ribs in place with a piece of saran wrap separating the rib and planking, and then attach using the conventional methods. To a purist this is not acceptable, even though I know in my mind, FROM MY EXPERIENCE, that my way will produce a more dimensionally stable and a stronger replacement. As said, it's the builders pocketbook and the builder's responsibility....and I just wanted to go sailing...not forever working on a boat....except to make her purty.

[erster]

and your point erster?

is there something wrong with expressing an opinion - esp. when something is submitted for public opinion/scrutiny?

For your info, many of us know both Jamie, and Airlie and are genuinely looking out for both their best interests.

NuS
Sitting in the shoes of the yard manager that is doing a job for one single payer or an individual, how does a yard manager and their workers proceed in a timely manner if he receives three dozen opinions each day or so from parties that are sitting across the earth about each detail posted for review? And further more, each area of the world does not have the benefit of the same materials.

Case in point for me was the issue of what was perceived as off the shelf pine. I haven't followed much anymore since I have personally been in his shoes on boat projects and have given up posting boat shots.

But if we also look at the board closely, I personally would have stated that it looked to me like either white cedar or even some of the new growth of cypress which is used in the south in traditional boats.

Another case in point, I was building a lapstrake hull with the highest quality materials and the owner wanted to place an engine on the boat that far exceeded what was the standard for the hull. This also brought out the wolves even without knowing how I had addressed the upgrade, added some additional supports which was also not in the character of the proven design. No one here knew the behinds the scenes conversation or details that also took place.

I have personally built several hulls of alternative methods which also was dictated by my own personal finances and desires, which was not addressed in open forum. I also received the same slams by the same folks and have finally decided to pass over his postings. The methods and materials would surely not be accepted practice but fit the occasion and desires, part of which was also dictated by my location. I put those hulls up to any other hull shots posted, also knowing that my maintainance practices far exceed the large majority of posters here. This issue is more important to the life of a hull, even with the finish money can buy, than the actual materials sometimes.

Another case in point, this website has been posted several times, with boat projects bringing about redicule to the highest denominator and drawing some of the ugliest scruntiny, while being a proven builder providing hulls in an area that pushes the envelope of boatworks and materials for more years than probably both of us have been alive, probably.


http://www.paulmanncustomboats.com/background.htm

As I have stated, if a project is to proceed, especially if its a paid project with the owner on the sidelines, armchair folks should take this in mind. I took it as Jamie was proud to post updates and posted updates as a way to share his excitement with others, especially since he is single and used his computer as a source of gaining friendships.

If I am personally doing a project, greater latitude of condemnation, or constructive comments can have have proceeded to take place, teaching me to reconsider my postings since I feel very confident in how I approach a project, which should also be considered in the case of Cecil and his shop and workmanship. Its his liability when he sends the boat out into open water.

[S.V. Airlie]

especially since he is single and used his computer as a source of gaining friendships.

What the hell do you mean with this statement erster? I do not consider the forum the "lonely hearts club".:rolleyes::rolleyes:
And yes, even I have friends who are not members of the forum. Perhaps hard for you to believe but.. wow, shyte happens.
And yes, I consider many here friends.. but I do not search the forum to make friends. Some here will like me some won't...Not my first objective for being on the forum. If friendships ensue, great.. an added plus.

[erster]

especially since he is single and used his computer as a source of gaining friendships.

What the hell do you mean with this statement erster? I do not consider the forum the "lonely hearts club".:rolleyes::rolleyes:
And yes, even I have friends who are not members of the forum. Perhaps hard for you to believe but.. wow, shyte happens.
And yes, I consider many here friends.. but I do not search the forum to make friends. Some here will like me some won't...Not my first objective for being on the forum. If friendships ensue, great.. an added plus.

I meant nothing derogatory at all. You have stated numerous times that you have gained many new friends that share your enjoyment of boats. I think your daily numbers surely reinforce this too. Damn Jamie, thats got nothing to do with a lonely hearts club. Stop sniping at each and every post or reply. :rolleyes: Go visit your boat and see whats going on, since you seem bent on biting off the heads of each and everyone lately. If you do not like what Cecil is doing, then talk to him privately, a good way for you to proceed indeed, given this climate here. Hell I defend you and defended Cecil, knowing full well what its like when disassociated Yahoos begin to pick apart every grain or screw. Delete your threads if you are not happy with repeated attacks. :eek:

[NuSKcalB]

Sitting in the shoes of the yard manager that is doing a job for one single payer or an individual, how does a yard manager .........etc.


What??? Are you agreeing/disagreeing or completely missing the point of my original post??

NuS

[erster]

Surely we would be failing in our duties if we didn't point out issues

I have missed nothing, since I sure as heck don't know your involvment in the project. What is your duty or anyone else here, armed with nothing more than photos? As far as I am concerned, the only person that has a duty to provide an explanation is Cecil about any piece of wood, screws, or primers and paints. The rest of this crowd is shooting from the hip unless you are directly involved in Jamie's project either as a payer, or a woodworker. You have no duty as a friend to condemn unless you are the project manager with hands on physical evidence of a serious problem. Still again, you have no duty for anything, only 100 opinions. Good evening.:rolleyes:

[NuSKcalB]

Rubbish!

[S.V. Airlie]

Well, there is an alternative.. Actually 2
1) I don't have to post any more pictures.... or
2) I could post more pictures and anyone with a comment that needsw my attention can e-mail me or pm their concerns.
This would draw my attention to someone's convcerns and not cause a spitting contest on the forum.
Cheers.

[emichaels]

Well one thing is certain for sure..........this thread does NOT belong in B/R. It belongs in "Boat Related" or "People and PLaces" or the "Bilge" but not in B/R. There is a purpose to the classification system.