Seagoing single?

[skuthorp]

Seagoing single?
I'm looking to build an open water version of a single scull for use on my bay which is mirror-flat on winters days. I'm thinking 16/17ft, sealed fore and aft for floatation, boyancy on the outriggers to make it possible to recover after a capsize, maybe a slipper stern for the same reason. 15 ft oars. Sort of like a rowing kayak except that I'll be sitting much higher. Any suggestions as to plans? I'm sure that I've posted this before but I couldn't find it again. Thanks in anticipation.
Jeff

[Stiletto]

I've always liked the look of the firefly.

[skuthorp]

"i thought you were looking for a date"

SWMBO would never agree...........

"Firefly" are there drawings I can look at and where from please.

[cm2ncfsu2]

Drawings are available from the WoodenBoat store and teh study plans are just 99 cents...

[rbgarr]

Fifteen foot oars are abnormally long. Nine to ten foot oars are the normal length for sculling (recreational and competition), and the Bangor Packet, also available from WB Store may be worth a look. They can be built lapstrake.

[Lance F. Gunderson]

The Merry Wherry kit boats advertized in WB look good to me; I used to row a wherry much like those out of Weld Boathouse on the Charles River many years ago; she went well but leaked like a seive. Echo Rowing offers some interesting open water rowing designs, but not in wood.

[skuthorp]

Thanks for the advice, in retrospect I think that I overestimated the oar length watching a single on the river. I've tried one once, reasonably stable on the move but like a sub in even a small chop. I'll have a lookat the WB store plans, thanks
Jeff

[Lance F. Gunderson]

Note that the Echo Rowing shells are designed for open water rowing; they have some mighty impressive videos which I'm sure they will be delighted to show you, and a demo could probably be easily arranged. Give Doug Martin or Ted Perry a call to discuss.

[skuthorp]

Very impressive, especially the recovery shots, even if they are not wood! I've looked at the prices, have to think about that though we're not so far apart these days (about 20%). No Aussie dealer but Iv'e got a mate close to the Minnesota one. I'm about to dissappear down to my beach house for the weekend. We are promised RAIN for the first time in months and we need years of it to catch up. OK for surfing if not sailing.
I've been looking at Duck Flat's range today. Not precisely what I want, self-recovery on the water is essential. I noticed the Echo boats have flat bottoms, they seem to track OK though. I thought of an Outred skiff, even though it's beamier than I wanted, half decked and sealed fore and aft, and maybe a self-draining cockpit.

[seanz]

If it was me I'd have John Welsford's Light Dory.

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/lightdory/Lightdory2.jpg


But it's not me,and you sound like you want a modern shaped rowing scull.If so,why not do away with the cockpit entirely?
There was an article a few years ago in the local paper on some fellas in this area who were doing open water rowing.I'll have a bit of a dig and see what I can come up with.
Rowing on Port Phillip Bayou.What a cool idea:)

[Ian McColgin]

The Alden is a very nice glass model that gives an idea of seaworthy, and I mean seaworthy, shape. To see what can be done with one, read an amazing little book called "Rowing for Latitude." I can't recall the author's name but she and her husband are avalanche rescue-safety pros in Alaska who's idea of a summer vacation is very high latitude.

[MAGIC's Craig]

Ermm...those were kayaks that Jill Freston and her husband Doug rowed..., still, they are similar to the Alden concept, just longer, if I recall correctly.

Craig

[garland reese]

The Maas 21 rowing shell was designed for open water rowing, and is used on some of the bays in CA. They are well made and reasonably priced, and you could probably find one nearby to look at. There was a boat of similar capacity being developed by Steve Killing some years back. I think plans may be available for it. Contact Bear Mountain Boats.

[Paul Stohlman]

Here on Port Townsend Bay the Maas 24 and Aero are popular. They are GRP, but the concept could be translated to wood. They are fast in flat water, and the hull flares out for when it gets dicey. They are fully decked, and are available with self bailers. They are also easy to get back into if you go into the drink. (I speak from experience.)

A local fellow has a 19 foot double ended clinker wherry, sliding seat, that was built in 1910 (?) that has a nice shape. I plan to build something similar in glued lap ply, and deck it the same way the wooden shells were (heat shrink fabric varnished).

[skuthorp]

At the moment Paul that is my thinking too, adapting a wherry design. I'd even thought of leaving the top plank off one to lower the profile. Thank you all for the info. I'm off to find Bear Mountain Boats now.
BTW. how would a self-bailer work on a rowing shell, would she haqve enough speed? Or am I thinking of the wrong type?

[Spokaloo]

I managed to not post this and lost everything I typed.

She has always had a desire to row after watching the Gonzaga U crews out practicing. We have a local rowing club (one of several) that puts on a clinic. They rent the GU crew training boats and teach the proper nuances of crew rowing. These are the coxed 8+ shells that are 60' long and a whopping 24" under butt. Yes, thats 60 feet. They are monsters, and they are FAST.

The 8+ boats are 8 man + 1 coxswain and rowed with sweeps (2 hands, 1 oar). Once we had that somewhat understood, we switched and had to learn the sculling technique, which is a bit different. You really need to get your rowing stroke nailed down before you go out on a regular basis to prevent injury and to not learn bad habits which are hard to break. Concept2 has a great website for that, as well as ergometer training to get the mechanics figured out.

I would love to row competitively, but that would require 4:30 wake up calls. When I heard that, I was shocked to learn there was a 4:30 in the morning as well as in the afternoon! I only see that hour when Im at work and something is burning down or a person is dying.

The wake behind the boat is decent, but she and I can run it well past hull speed. When its one person (light boat) and trimmed, she doesn't throw a wave as badly. There is very minimal turbulence, but what really comes in handy is that whitehall transom. The wineglass (which I did in purpleheart) shape is essentially a built-in skeg when trimmed correctly. It tracks like a freight train. Pretty convenient when the water gets rough and you have 8' of outboard.

Any other questions, or if you want build photos, let me know!

E

[Spokaloo]

Hah, 10:40pm here. This is what your talking about Im guessing:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/fighterama2/thames/IMG_2723.jpg

gnight

E

[Spokaloo]

Thats odd, it slid my post up halfway into the thread....

E

[Spokaloo]

Thats odd, it slid my post up halfway into the thread.... post 18?



E

[Spokaloo]

Odd, it put my last post up to #18?

Hah, 10:40pm here. This is what your talking about Im guessing:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/fighterama2/thames/IMG_2723.jpg

gnight

E

[Spokaloo]

Odd, it put my last post up to #18?
E

[Spokaloo]

I can't reccomend my Thames enough:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/fighterama2/thames/IMG_2709.jpg

Its right at your desired length, has tremendous buoyancy, the wherry shape gives tons of reserve if you get some funny seas to the stern, and rows with a pleasant turn of speed.

We regularly encounter 2'-3' boat wakes rowing double (total weight of occupants 350 lb) with nary a splash of green water. In fact I have to work at it to even get spray in the boat. It is not tippy but still has a slippery underwater profile.

Selway-Fisher designed, and he also has a couple other interesting boats that might suit you as well.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/fighterama2/thames/IMG_2705.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/fighterama2/thames/thames2002.jpg

Link to the 17, but there are some larger and smaller boats in the same family.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Rowskiffs.htm#ME

Any questions on ours, please don't hesitate. I love talking about this boat.

E

[garland reese]

As Paul said the Maas Aero (21) and the 24 are both capable boats in good hands. We have several in our boathouse. The 24 is faster, but a bit less stable in rough conditions. Both are great boats. The self bailer is a nice thing to have after a capsize, since it will elminate all but a sponge wort of water in the cockpit, once you get underway. The Aero will handle a pretty rough day with reasonable feeling of security.

The Dragonfly is a Steve Killing design. There were plans available but I don't really know if any were built by home builders. Here's a pic. Canadian Canoes built this one, I think. Anyway, the design has a lot of basic parameters of the Maas boats noted above....... probably somewhere in the middle of the two Mass designs.
http://www.canadiancanoes.com/albums/album06/aas.jpg
It looks very much along the lines of the Aero design. I think a self bailer would be a very good idea in this boat, as it appears that choppy water would easily find it's way into the footwell of the cockpit.

[skuthorp]

Garland Reese, I love the 'boomerang' outrigger, that's type I was initially thinking of but that build is beyond my skills. Strip plank maybe but I favour clinker as in old-style rowing shells.
That said Spokaloo your Thames rowing skiff is the most likely direction I will go in. It looks delicious on the water! Have a look at this boat,
http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=2445&highlight=venus
it's still there but I have been promised first option if....
I like the Selway-Fisher range, the Windrush and Waif would also be suitable as I like the sailing option and the Thames skiff a possibility as it's close to my original concept. I like the cockpit combing and the sealed compartments but I'm not convinced of it's stability for re-entry. I already have one boat that is near-impossible to re-enter flooded and I'll have to build outriggers to make it safe. Not that I wasn't warned about Macgreggors at the start!
I'll get round to some serious research now. It's not practical to import a boat and I enjoy building.
Thanks for the references everyone
Jeff

[Spokaloo]

Jeff, on a boat like my TRS, a set of paddle floats (as kayakers use) attached to the riggers at the lock pins would make reboarding a piece of cake. Of course you have a million options as far as what you decide to deck in and seal as flotation vs open storage, etc. Those are all contributing factors to your final product.

One could easily take the 17' TRS, run bulkheads to a flush deck in the position of the as-designed frames, then place a cockpit sole at the 2nd panel joint (or thereabouts), somewhere a few inches above the load waterline, poke a few flappered scuppers in, and you have a self-bailing, buoyant, anti-sinking rowboat for one that would be the cats arse for rowing.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/fighterama2/thames/thames2004.jpg

If you are feeling a bit more traditional, Paul will also whip out a set of lines to build it clinker style for a really reasonable fee.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/fighterama2/thames/IMG_2697.jpg

Sorry, just love this boat....

E

[skuthorp]

Pics are wonderful, I can almost feel her surge under me just looking at them. Her wash behaves like a racing kayak, I paddled K1's and 2's for years and still own one. Did you row competively? I learnt in the Sea Scouts on heavyweight dinghys and whalers but I find it very contemplative, rather like XC skiing or ocean swimming. You get very close to your own body and super aware.

[Spokaloo]

She has always been fascinated with rowing. Spokane has a rowing club that trains new rowers in their older boats (Vespoli 8+ trainers). We went out in the 8+ shells, which are 60' long and a beam of about 22". Yes, 60'. Learned sweeps first (both hands, one oar) in the race boats, then had to pick up the sculling technique later.

Rowing for us is addictive. We have not succeded in going out for a row and coming back within 2 hrs. The longest we pause is maybe 5 minutes unless we stop at one of our friend's houses on the lake. It is one of the few exercises that has such fluidity of motion combined with peacefulness of the surroundings and soothing water sounds.

I have to say a sculling stroke is worlds apart from a standard rowing stroke. A pulling boat with 7' oars can move well, but there is no substitute for 10' of oar, all that leg power in the water, and the insane amount of speed you can gain on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th strokes from a dead stop.

I do have a few other photos of the boat, including complete construction photos, if you like or if anyone is curious.

E

[skuthorp]

It's 3pm here, I'm off till about 7am tomorrow. I will be interested in the construction pix but not yet. I have to choose first!. I've only rowed a single scull, never been in a 4 or 8 but I'd like to try. Paddled in a K4 and a C4 though. I agree about the addiction of rowing but I just like getting out on the water. We get mirror calm days in winter and I lioke just sitting out in the bay and letting the silence wash round me.
Ah well, off to battle the traffic! I'll look again tomorrow, bye.

[Ian McColgin]

They are banned from competition as they are too efficient, but check out a sliding outrigger rather than sliding seat. There's a company in Wareham, MA that was making them but the engineering is not hard and a home-made with the strip mold boomerang look would be magnificant - get away from the agricultural look of most outriggers.

In a wherry or any boat that might be run solo or duo, a long centerbox (sealable to keep gear dry, beer cold and provide flotation) with seat latches would be the most obvious way to adapt configuration and reduce cockpit volume.

Absolutely elvstrom type self-bailers work for these boats.

What a wonderful sport for the right at least mildly athletic couple.

[JimConlin]

Gary Piantedosi makes a sliding-rigger rig. For a boat that's shorter than a racing single, keeping the rower's mass in one place is a good thing.

[skuthorp]

and before my morning coffee!! I built a sliding seat for another project with locking pins, you don't always want the seat to move about. I will look at what's available but most likely will get that down off the wall. There's a firm here makes flip-out outriggers with pin mounts so you can dismount them easily but again, I'll look about.
I don't know about a "mildly athletic couple", I'm 64 and Anne somewhat younger but not much interested in water sports. Part of the enjoyment is being out there by myself.

There's a similar discussion going on here
http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?p=1579296
on the same forum

[skuthorp]

Well I do love the Thames skiff, there's one here hung up in a barn
http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=2445&highlight=venus
so I have an idea what a clinker version would look like. Or maybe the Selway FisherMandarin http://www.selway-fisher.com/Rowskiffs.htm#ME.
So the decision now is material. Ply or plank. I can get enough Silky Oak planks (Grevillia Robusta) which would be suitable but would have to be finished or I can scout about for imported Cedar.
I've looked at several dory types and they'd certainly be easier to buils and probably cheaper, but at my age I'll probably only build one rowing skiff so what the heck!

[Spokaloo]

Do you want a boat that you can replace planks later on? Or do you want a dimensionally stable plywood boat that you can do spot repairs on? Whats most available locally and regionally? Which is the most ecologically sound to use?

So many pieces to ponder.

E

[skuthorp]

I like the clear interiors of ply boats and engineered wood is easier to work with. The Silky Oak is cut, cured and sitting in a stack awaiting some use. It was cut for a boat some years ago and never used.
Ply would be lighter and easier to bend around the transom, but I'd be buying it from a merchant. Haven't decided if I'm brave enough to attempt a planked Thames Skiff.

[Woxbox]

...hiding behind the dock. Looks interesting.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f92/Woxbox/Littleboat.jpg