Sea kayaking drowning

[rbgarr]

http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=106049

[Chan]

What's your point? They were 6 miles off Biddeford Pool in a near gale the water temp. is 43. There's nothing between Biddeford and Europe but water. Some people have death wishes.

[rbgarr]

Sounds like you're near where it happened and know more details than what the vague article revealed.

[Lance F. Gunderson]

They were very close to Wood Island, which is very close to the mainland. As to why the survivor didn't go for help and spent the night on Wood Island, well one can only wonder. I was out paddling that day at the same time, off Gerrish Island in Kittery Point, in my 18' Cape Charles; there were some gusts to around 22 knots according to the CG, but I felt in no danger and had a good time. Conditions may have been worse at Biddeford Poole about 30 miles further up the coast, but hell I've seen kayakers out in gale conditions and having a good time off Short Sands in York and other places. We all take our chances each and every time we go out. Water sports are dangerous, but no more so than investing in the stock market.

[Clinton B Chase]

I read the article and it sounds like these guys were out for a little paddle and were enticed out beyond the pool but got caught in local conditions that they were not familiar with (strong ebb tide current and offshore breeze pushing them out faster than realized). They also left for the paddle at 7pm!!! Less than an hour before sunset. That, IMHO, was one big mistake. The survivor also states that they did not have a radio or cell phone, and admits that as a big mistake. He did go to Wood I and spend the night there before searching again the next morning. I really felt for the guy -- he is pulling himself apart over this -- because I have been in an aweful situation before that got away from us and landed me in the hospital with sever injuries...we survived...and hindsight is 20-10! I hope the guy can pick up his life and move on -- he lost a dear friend.

Cheers,
Clint

[Hughman]

Water sports are dangerous, but no more so than investing in the stock market.

Stock market is rarely fatal.

This does raise questions about judgement, fer sure.

[Tom Robb]

I understand the urge to talk about what went wrong and why. It helps us to prepare mentally for our own mistakes.
But that will help neither the dead friend nor the grieving survivor who is second guessing enough for all of us.
We get in over our heads sometimes and with dumb luck, or grace, most of us survive to tell about it.
I wish them both peace.

[Tom Hunter]

I simpathize with Tom Robb's point, but I must say that I find intelligent discussion of what went wrong and how to avoid it in the future to be very helpful.

The UK report on the loss of Ouzo is a particularly good example, I am going to change my radar reflector array because of it, and make some other potentially life saving changes as well.

I am doing a lot of work that involves cognition, neurobiology and the like. One of the questions we are looking at is why people make mistakes. Errors in judgement is clearly a statement of fact in a case like this, but we don't know why people make them. We are learning about it, and may understand it eventually. The post mortems that I am interested in don't stop at error in judgement or gear failure, they start there.

Sad sad story, the survivors letter was really heartfelt.

[Kim Whitmyre]

First, my heartfelt condolences to those left behind. While this tale of two kayakers I read about several months ago is somewhat different, there are good lessons in it so I will share this link:

http://paddlingtravelers.blogspot.com/2006/09/when-sea-kayakers-are-rescued-at-sea.html

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2609/2132/1600/swimmer5.jpg

[LeeG]

I simpathize with Tom Robb's point, but I must say that I find intelligent discussion of what went wrong and how to avoid it in the future to be very helpful.

.


precisely. Analyzing what happened isn't meant to correct what happened.

[Gary Piantedosi]

Tom Hunter wrote:

I am doing a lot of work that involves cognition, neurobiology and the like. One of the questions we are looking at is why people make mistakes. Errors in judgement is clearly a statement of fact in a case like this, but we don't know why people make them. We are learning about it, and may understand it eventually. The post mortems that I am interested in don't stop at error in judgement or gear failure, they start there.

Check out this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Deep-Survival-Who-Lives-Dies/dp/0393326152/sr=1-1/qid=1171005457/ref=sr_1_1/102-8510255-0748143?ie=UTF8&s=books

http://www.deepsurvival.com/

[TimH]

Just goes to prove once again...when kayaking, dress for the water temp, not the air temp..
He obviously wasnt wearing a dry suit.

One of the first things they teach you in BCU certified classes.

[woodenkayakbuilder]

First, my heartfelt condolences to those left behind. While this tale of two kayakers I read about several months ago is somewhat different, there are good lessons in it so I will share this link:

http://paddlingtravelers.blogspot.com/2006/09/when-sea-kayakers-are-rescued-at-sea.html

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2609/2132/1600/swimmer5.jpg

Thanks for the link to my post, Kim.

I've since added video footage of a rescue swimmer/helo kayak rescue in the Pacific Northwest this winter.

The basketlifted paddlers were, according to some reports, out in winds that were gale-plus, perhaps worse than this recent evening in Maine.

The Bellingham, Washington paddlers carried vhfs and were, it seems, I think, far enough offshore that fatality by waves against rocks was not a possibility - although I'm not sure.

Open water is oftentimes a safer place to be, as many already know.

What a sad day in Maine. As sad as the much different accident off Monomoy Island, Cape Cod three or four years ago.

Video links: the second allows comments and annotations via Mojiti if anyone knows that service. I'm in the process of interviewing the flight mechanic and rescue swimmer.

http://paddlingtravelers.blogspot.com/2007/04/helicopter-kayaker-rescue-video.htm
http://paddlingtravelers.blogspot.com/2007/05/mojiti-test.html

[George Roberts]

As I read the article ...

They were both pretty much dead as soon as they hit the big water. (Being pushed into an island saved one of them.) They had no skills.

It appears that the waves could have been only 3' high (or much higher given the information).

---

I am not a very good or brave paddler, but these guys seem to have panicked.

Being in the water implies a failure to roll - a sign of panic. Trying to paddle toward a person in the water is another. Continuing to try is a third. There is a reason they are in the water. There is a reason paddling does not reduce the distance.

Take a break - 5 minutes will not make a difference. Take a broad look at the water. Find a path that limits your efforts - might not be one.

What did the survivor expect to do when he reached the guy in the water? He certainly lacked the skills/strength to paddle out with a guy hanging on his boat. They lacked the skills to get the guy in the water into a boat. They lacked the skills/materials to raft the boats together.

---

Skills that might have helped:

Knowing the difference among swells, wave reflections, and rip currents.

Knowing how to brace/roll into waves - helps when paralleling steep waves.

Knowing what skills are necessary to get a person back into a boat in these conditions.

[Tom Hunter]

Gary P.

Read the book two weeks ago, its a solid effort and certainly worth a read.

No offense intended George but have you ever read about an accident where you did not come to the conclusion that the people involved were in way over thier heads and should not be out there?

I suppose one could take the position that having an accident is proof that you are out of your depth, but all sorts of very well trained people ranging from surgeons to fighter pilots to sea captains have accidents, surely they are not ALL out of their depth?

[CK 17]

No offense intended George but have you ever read about an accident where you did not come to the conclusion that the people involved were in way over thier heads and should not be out there?


Thanks Tom! Man, I've wanted to ask that question for a long time.

[emichaels]

Accidents happen to the very best and most skilled climbers, sailors, extreme sport experts all the time. The big difference is that, knowing they are going extreme...they go extremely prepared ! There is a world of difference in thinking you will come back alive and knowing you will come back alive. And quite frankly all the reading and talking about it, won't change that fact. Not many people truly know what it is like to be in an extreme situation and what to do when they are there. It is not something you wake up one day and decide you are going to go extreme. It takes years of dealing with and knowing your body and mind and where the limits for you personally are. For what ever reason these guys were perhaps somewhat out of their personal boundaries/limits. It is exhilirating to be on the edge and that adrenaline overload can make most people weak in the knees, literally.

Reading the information that woodenkayakbuilder gave us there is a stark difference in the preparation of the two parties. One was rescued and the other didn't have a prayer of rescue. It does seem that the extreme element that put the kayakers in Bidd. Pool to the test was what I read as a complete lack of preparation for the unexpected. Which is a direct result of a lack of experience for the extreme which you are undertaking.

I feel for the guy, it will be a life changing experience for the survivor and the family of the lost boater.

But from the information presented it really seems that this was entirely preventable and survivable given the correct choices that experience brings.

Just because a person does something for a long time does not mean that they are doing it right or that they have gained any real experience that would apply to an extreme situation.

One man's extreme is another's training.

[Tom Robb]

Tom H.,
You're right. It does need discussed and analyzed for the benefit of all those who go down to the sea in those very small boats.
I was reacting to the survivors guilt and what he seemed to see as heartless nitpicking I suppose.
My cousin was married to a fighter pilot (Korea thru Vietnam) and whenever there was an incident the wives wanted to hear that it was pilot error because they had to believe that their husbands would never do anything stupid and didn't want to hear that their aircraft might be at fault - over which no degree of skill was helpful. (I'm not sure how that relates here but it seems somehow to have to do with being as prepared as possible.)
I doubt these guys were stupid or foolhardy adrenaline freaks. It's hard to know you're in over your head until it happens.

[George Roberts]

Tom Hunter ---

"No offense intended George but have you ever read about an accident where you did not come to the conclusion that the people involved were in way over their heads and should not be out there?"

It appears that is the type of people who die in accidents.

As I wrote once before ...

I drove 1400 miles to do a 2 week kayak trip. Looked at the 7' waves with their tops being blown off. I got back in my car and drove 1400 miles back home.

While I could easily paddle in those conditions, I decided that I did not need to prove anything to anyone. It feels good to not be dead.

[TimH]

George is an offshore kayaking expert. The fact that he drove 2800 miles and almost went kayaking proves this.

[George Roberts]

I never claimed to be an expert.

But I have better judgment and skills than most who don't come back.

[Tom Hunter]

Or maybe your just luckier. :D

Seriously though, George isn't claiming to be expert, just claiming (to use the neurobilogical term) to use his rational brain when others might respond to the more emotive side of themselves.

The book Gary P. mentioned goes into this in some detail, enough for a layman but not for a scientist. The author does try to explain why people often keep going even when they themselves would probably not go if they were critiquing the situation from the outside rather than living it.

I stand by my earlier criticism, I think George may jump to the conclusion that people are out of thier depth a bit too early in some cases. But that does not mean he is always wrong, and I don't recall him starting out a sentence "as an expert kayaker."

[Lance F. Gunderson]

In both the Wood Island and Plum Island incidents described above the kayakers were really quite experienced, far more so than most who are out on the water on any given day. Yet they found themselves in overwhelming conditions. Things can happen very fast. Accidents can and will happen despite good odds, even to the experienced and well trained. The famous canoist Verlin Kruger had several close calls and servived only because he was lucky enough to be rescued quickly by others. Everybody needs a bit of luck it seems. Yet most of us want to test or push our limits at some point. It's human nature.

[TimH]

Pretty impressive George. What kind of boat did you say you have?

[Ian McColgin]

I've had little reason to agree with George Roberts' political and maratime-ethical stances as expressed here, but it's been clear for years that his building is quite good and it's to b e expected that his paddling skill would be on a par with that.

I don't go quite to blame the victem but George's very blunt analysis is harsh but useful. The fellow who died showed real grit in getting back in the boat and pumping but conditions that knock you over once will likely do it again. The fellow that got to the island showed good sense. They happened to be beyond their skills.

A lot of paddlers I know don't really practice a strong roll. Certainly not a hand roll or hand paddle. It's a bit like the run of the mill street driver who is clueless about handling a four wheel drift. Or a sailor who can't gybe in a gale (Force 8, perhaps 37 knots). Or a pilot qualified for VFR who runs into a bit of fog. Or climbers on Mt Hood caught by weather . . .

My dad, by the way, as an ALPA rep in airline accident investigations. I got an early education into really blunt and searching evaluation of what went wrong.

We cannot expect everyone to be as proficient as we are at everything they do.

Along my own learning curve I have definatly been places I was not infact qualified to be. I've plunged over a horizon line on a river into a huge growler that ate my kayak. I've falled into a glacier cravass for something so stupid as persuing a wind-blown mitten. I don't want to talk about the number of falls I took learning to jump my horse. I am not at all boastful about the seven dismastings - only one of which had nothing to do with personal stupidity and/or bravado - I've survived.

Each time I promice god that, should I live through this, I'll not do it again. And I've not. Instead, I do something different but just as dumb.

So perhaps I have a broader tolerance that George Roberts but I also think that the most searching evaluation - not about blame but about reality - is most important. That means sometimes we must recognize that people err.

Part of "survivor's guilt" is failing to accept our full responsibility for our errors, especially tragic errors. Full responsibility is not just 'feeling badly' about what happened, but is moving on to doing, to living, with fuller knowledge. That means learning from what happened. It's much easier if there's only property damage and recoverable physical injury. So, in that respect I've thus far been much luckier than the survivor of this thread starter. Should I or any forum member have the misfortune to not be so lucky in the future, I hope as a community we can grow. As we learn from all too many from Tangvald to Taberly, even super-experts make basic mistakes.