first sail boat

[3pepper]

hi
what would be a good choice for a first sail boat , i want to learn more about them , jon boats are fun but ...

trailerable 16' or less
traditional plank construction prefered but not mandatory
fast or at least quick , but dry
for day trips , light camping , mainly freshwater use
2 to 4 people

thanks
stephen / 3pepper

[David G]

Having built one myself, I'm biased - but the Goat Island Skiff by Michael Storer would fit the bill with one exception. It's not traditional plank on frame construction. It's plywood, chine logs, and epoxy. For your stated use, that might be preferable anyway.

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~storerm/GIS/GISplan.html

http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/GISintro.htm

"Happiness is not a goal. It is a by-product" -- Eleanor Roosevelt

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Sailing has little relation to motorboating. It is not intuative. It takes time to get comfortable with the basics. Here are some things to ponder before you choose a design.
Sailboats are not commodious. Because they are wind powered they require a good hydrodynamic shape which usually means not a maximum of interior space for a given length. Sailboats also, require elements like daggerbord/centerboard, tiller, mast, boom,rigging that use up some of the interior space you do have. So, a modest sized boat may carry 4 people for short trips but would be crowded and uncomfortable on an all-day sail.
Another consideration is a sailboat may accomodate 4 adults but won't sail well with more than two. Smaller boats are more weight sensative. There is more. The bigger the boat is the more complicated the sail and rigging get. It is usually necessary to clamber around the boat to untangle lines and sails when things go wrong so it is better not to fill the boat with people until you know how to make everything go.
Your desire for speed may collide with everything else you want. Longer waterline lengths, usually give more speed. But if the boat is glue-and-screw lumber rather than stich-and-glue plywood it will be heavier and a bit slower. And, as you fill it with people and camping gear it will get slower yet. With a 16' limit you may have to accept whatever speed the boat is capable of on any given day.

[dredbob]

Tell us a little more about where you intend to use the boat. Small inland lakes where the wind is always light, or large lakes that can breeze up and get rough, etc. Are the 4 people all adults, or are some children? Are you young and gung ho, and want an athletic, hiking out on the rail, wild ride, or do you want a more sedate and laid back ride?

Bob

[ken connors]

http://www.stevproj.com/

Check out the Weekender and see if it suits the conditions youll be sailing in.

[3pepper]

thanks
i will be sailing in sheltered waters of a large river and medium size lakes , but with sailing lessons and more expierience i would like to go to the coast , outerbanks of nc and charlston sc area .

i am 45 but fit and active , i'm a house carpenter and custom wood worker . and yes i like to cruise slow and relaxed , but i have my jon boat for that . i mountain climbed for 17 years as my only hobbie , so a white knuckled ride with the wind would be great fun , but not mandatory .
i don't mind compromise , and will probably sail with only my wife on board.


the skipjack plans looked great , lots of style and looks fast. and shallow draft would be a plus

i think i need to read up on the various types of sail riggs and types of small sail boats , any good books to recomend ?

what size of sail boat is comfortably trailered

thanks again
stephen

[Garth Jones]

As you are looking around at boat designs, take a look at Iain Oughtred. His double ended glued lapstrake boats are relatively easy to build, light, great fun to sail, and really attractive (I'm biased, since I built and sail a Ness Yawl). The biggest are about 19'. The Ness Yawl is fine for 2 people all day, 3 or 4 for a shorter sail and the Caladonia Yawl, which is much beamier, is still fast, but can also haul a lot of gear/people.

Here is Rowan built by my friend James McMullen. She's very close to a Ness Yawl (actually a stretched Arctic Tern). He sails her all over Puget Sound and goes camp cruising in her for a week at a time.

http://www.slaughterhousegallery.com/Ness%20Yawl/Images/rowan7.jpg

The lug yawl rig is very traditional, easy to set up, and dead simple to sail. Oughtred's larger boats can also be built as sloops. Here is my Goldberry:

http://www.slaughterhousegallery.com/Ness%20Yawl/Images/SS4thumb.jpg

In my experience, the difference in trailering a 16' boat versus a 19' boat is not much if the boat is light (and these are - about 400 lbs) but the longer waterline length gives much more speed and carrying capacity. Iain Oughtred has a how-to book on building his boats - very helpful. Some of the plans are available from WoodenBoat. For the rest, or a catalog, write him (no email!) at:

Iain Oughtred, Boat Designer
Struan Cottage
Bernisdale
Isle of Skye IV51 9NS Scotland

Hope this helps.

Garth

[Thorne]

Pick up a few of the standard ply (and non-ply) boatbuilding manuals from our hosts and see what you think -- much of the books material also applies for the more standard plank-on-frame style of boats, particularly building spars, rigging details, etc.

I have a restored fir over oak dory that I trailer and daysail, and despite my best efforts, it DOES leak a bit. And of course it is three times the weight of a similar ply boat -- all things to consider, with varying benefits for both construction methods.

http://www.woodenboatbooks.com/images/325111.jpg (http://www.woodenboatstore.com/Prodinfo.asp?number=325-111&item=1) http://www.woodenboatbooks.com/images/325075.jpg (http://www.woodenboatstore.com/Prodinfo.asp?number=325-075&item=1) http://www.woodenboatbooks.com/images/325120.jpg (http://www.woodenboatstore.com/Prodinfo.asp?number=325-120&item=1)
http://www.woodenboatbooks.com/images/325116.jpg (http://www.woodenboatstore.com/Prodinfo.asp?number=325-116&item=1)

http://www.woodenboatbooks.com/

[merlinron]

you can't go wrong with a "Hartley 16", plans from duckworks magazine.com, or a glen-l 17, plans from glen-l. both are super easy to build ply plank on frame and well proven designs. the hartley has quite a large web site and thousands are sailing in aussie waters. both designed to be very easily trailered as well.

[merlinron]

you can't go wrong with a "Hartley 16", plans from duckworks magazine.com, or a glen-l 17, plans from glen-l. both are super easy to build ply plank on frame and well proven designs. the hartley has quite a large web site and thousands are sailing in aussie waters. both designed to be very easily trailered as well.

i assume by "traditional", you mean wood construction more than anything else. if you mean traditional,as in carvel planked, i would suggest to stay away from anything carvel planked. trailering them generally doesn't work well, other than seasonal.

[Daniel Noyes]

Stephen
When you mention exciting sailing and fresh water the first thing that comes to mind is the sailing scow, they ahve been raced and daysailed on lakes for over 100 yrs.
Some scows have a sharp bow and are generally better for large lakes or saltwater as they perform better in chop, while the flat bowed type were considered better for flat water speed.
a sunfish hull is an example of a modified "sharp bow" scow type hull.
A scow will sail faster with less sail area, fewer crew, shoaler draft and no ballast than any other monohull type.
I was influenced by lake scows (traveled to Ohio to look one over) when I drew the Ipswich Bay 18
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com
http://dansdories.googlepages.com/Slide13.JPG/Slide13-large.jpg (http://dansdories.googlepages.com/Slide13.JPG/Slide13-full.jpg)http://dansdories.googlepages.com/Slide30.JPG/Slide30-large.jpg (http://dansdories.googlepages.com/Slide30.JPG/Slide30-full.jpg)

[ProaRotorhead]

As a first boat built, I say go for something as easy to build as possible. It'll get you in the water faster and demonstrate some of the points in posts above firsthand. Secondly it will provide insight and skill in construction (epoxy and glass work, etc). Finally, since the minute we complete a craft most of us are thinking about what we would have done differently and what we'd like to do next, you'll have a better idea of what YOU want. Then you can settle in during the fall to build your dream. For now, maybe a 16' ply sharpie? I'm a proa man myself, there's not many of us, but the best plans around are at http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/garyd/.

[Tom Hunter]

As a first step I would check our sponsors site for two things:

Museums in your area that have a collection that you can try out.

Events where a bunch of boats will be gathered.

Then go, introduce yourself and tell people why you came. You will get a chance to try some boats, have a good time, meet some nice folks and leave better informed.

[3pepper]

great advice , thanks to everyone
i'm glad i won't start my sail boat untill fall , gives me more time to research . this a great hobbie
i realy like the looks of the traditionaly built scandanavian designs , and i may trade speed and weight for trad construction and style . i lean toward plank on frame construction because i have a solar dry kiln and a very cheap source for very nice wood all local . at .20 to .40 cents per brd ft and 30 days in the kiln , its hard to consider plywood . my 4' x 16' jon boat took about $40.00 in yellow pine and $100 in fasteners and glue (hard to beat those numbers)
but i realy don't know enough about sail boats to know what i want ... so the adventure begins .
thanks again
stephen

[3pepper]

and another problem ...

they are all beautiful

the sight of a well built wooden boat is the only thing that comes close to a pretty girl and the deep woods

[Thorne]

Well one issue on building plank on frame is that the wood should be air-dried, and often can take over a year for this process. You could try a really slow dry in your kiln if you can get green/wet wood...

You don't list a location but we can assume you are in the coastal area of the Carolinas -- so the average humidity should be reasonably high. Try a search of this forum for Bob Smalser's and others advice on how to test for moisture content in wood, and how to build plank on frame boats to avoid swelling and crushing (aka 'edge set') once they hit the water.

If you like the Faering styles, many of the current small open wooden boat designers have related designs (Oughtred, Welsford, etc), although few would be plank on frame. You should be able to find proper plank-on-frame plans from Mystic Seaport Museum, sources in Norway and Sweden, or other places if you look hard enough.

[classicboats turkiye]

You can also visit this web site. Good ideas for first sailing & rowing boats.
http://www.classicboats-turkiye.com/yelken_en.php

[Daniel Noyes]

If you like the Faering styles, many of the current small open wooden boat designers have related designs (Oughtred, Welsford, etc), although few would be plank on frame.

great observation Thorne!
many of the new plywood Vikeing ship style designs would be nearly unbuildable in traditional plank construction, due to the shape of their planks. It is possible to cut almost any shape out of two pices of ply scarfed together, but to get planks to form a seaworthy, resillient and fast hull is tricky, the plank width must be factored into how the boat is shaped. kind of makes one look on the masters such as Camberlin and his incredible dories with a that much more respect.

Stephen
you are right that building a traditional plank on frame is often cheaper than building with plywood and epoxies. (epoxy and plywood are not cheap)
Pictured below is a swampscot type dory called and Alpha. very fast (as far as small open boats go) and also buildable with relatively obtainable plank lumber.
Take a look at the thread on this forum
"Indian dory vs Caledonia Yawl" or something along those lines.
Also get Gardners Dory Book from your local library. full of boats you can build with real planking. Also look at some of your local types, they were developed over decades and centuries to perform well in your local conditions!
happy building
Dan
http://www.geocities.com/garylambda/AlphaBeach04.jpg

[James McMullen]

"Traditional plank construction" and "trailerable" are not really the very best fit, unfortunately. Most traditionally built wooden boats would really prefer to stay in the water for the whole season to ensure that the planks stay swelled up and tight. Traditional lapstrake tends to work better for this than carvel planking if you have to keep her on a trailer. . . . .but glued plywood lapstrake doesn't need to soak up at all to be watertight. I enjoy the craftsmanship involved in building traditional lapstrake boats, but I have found that the glued lapstrake is much more practical for a boat that lives on a trailer instead of at a slip or mooring.

(BTW--love the pictures, Garth!)

[Killick]

...to a design.

Since you won't be starting the build before the fall anyway, over the summer take the opportunity to get as much experience as you can in different boats in your target size range. If you take lessons at a local sailing club you should be able to get out on a bunch of different classes and styles of boat.

Speaking from personal experience, you may find that your target requirements change as you gain more sailing experience, and/or your emphasis on certain design attributes may increase/decrease.

Cheers,
Tony

[mdh]

Sailing lessons would be a good way to go. A few years back, I got the itch when I moved into a house on the lake. I wanted a boat, and thought sailing was the way I wanted to go. I started reading everything I could about it while shopping for a boat. I bought "Sailing for Dummies". The sailing clubs and marinas around here were no help at all. They were locked up, uninterested in talking to anybody who didn't already belong to their club, or come recommended by a member. Armed with the knowledge I gained from my book, I began calling on boats for sail. It must have been a buyers market, for most were anxious to meet at the boat and go for a test drive. Being honest with them and telling them that I was new to the game, most were happy to teach me all they could. It soon became obvious that one could sail all summer on other peoples boats, without the expense of owning one. I sailed on three different lakes on one weeekend. I've been hooked on sailing ever since, and now I'm hooked on wooden sailboats, and buiilding them. Good luck fella, hope you have as much fun at it as I do. By the way, I did buy a sailboat that summer. It proved to be the wrong one, but I made the most of it, and that's another story.

[Axel]

mdh's comments are very appropiate for a begginer. Looking around and asking boat people will give you first hand knowledge and experience. Size, on the other hand, is not so relevant. By keping things simple, you have more time to enjoy sailing. My fondest memories about sailing are the five years I sailed with my sons and friends in Italy in a 16' french-made trailerable sailboat.

The suggestion to build the Glen-L 17 is a good one: I purchased the plans some years ago, and altough for family reasons I did not built it, it is a simple and nice sailboat. Other fact is that Glen-L has all the hardware, etc. you may need for you specific model and also some advice in their products. Keep dreaming about sailing and hope that your dream comes true.