Cutty Sark is on fire in London dry dock [Archive]

seanz

05-21-2007, 04:16 AM

According to JimD's link the fire is now out.
and

"Chris Livett, Chairman of Cutty Sark Enterprises, speaking at the scene said: "We had removed 50% of the planking, so 50% of the planking wasn't on site and that's safe and secure.
"And from where I stand there is not a huge amount of damage to the planking that was left on. "There are pockets of charred planking and some have gone, but it doesn't look as bad as first envisaged.""

This might slow down the 25 million pound renovation.
25 million :eek:
What would it cost to build a new one?

JimD

05-21-2007, 04:28 AM

...25 million :eek: What would it cost to build a new one?

Best not to over analize it.

BrianW

05-21-2007, 05:15 AM

Wonder if I should scratch visiting the Cutty Sark off the list for next week?

P.I. Stazzer-Newt

05-21-2007, 05:29 AM

Wonder if I should scratch visiting the Cutty Sark off the list for next week?

I wouldn't, this may be the last chance you get - It will take a month or two to reach a conclusion - but the TV is saying that the cast iron (is it cast?) framework has buckled - if this is the case then that could be THE END.

Andrew Craig-Bennett

05-21-2007, 05:44 AM

It's wrought iron, of course.

English elm (not, as some clot stated, teak) over wrought iron, Muntz metal sheathed. Rain water trapped between the sheathing and the frames had accelerated decay.

Par for the course with the English Heritage spokesman who told the BBC this morning that the ship was famous for setting records bringing tea from India (she set no records in the tea trade, and it was China tea loaded at Shanghai...)

Richard Doughty and the other blithering idiots who have overseen the decay of the ship over the past half century were not attempting a proper rebuild; this was "conservation of the original fabric".

There's not a lot of that left now.

"Suspicious fire" - nonsense - anyone who, like me, has investigated ship fires will start with piles of oily and paint soaked rags and any use of a blowtorch last week.

The Cutty Sark Trust could not even knock the hatch wedges in the right way round - the masts were stepped through the keel onto the dock bottom.

Bulldoze the lot into the dock and forget this national disgrace.

JimD

05-21-2007, 05:47 AM

Wonder if I should scratch visiting the Cutty Sark off the list for next week?

You might get lucky and she could catch fire again while you're there.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt

05-21-2007, 05:55 AM

Thank you - I know not to trust everything on the telly - but that really was a fine example of why not to.

Found this (http://hnsa.org/conf2004/papers/davies.htm) report, which makes ugly reading.

I guess the next question is, "What do we put there to replace it?"

sawcutmill

05-21-2007, 07:00 AM

Pelagic , Has a pintle for her rudder made from a 15/16th (or metric equiv) Bronze hull fastener from the Cutty Sark. Robert W. Davis who built Pelagic ,visited her (CS) in the 1940's, he knew a shipwright there at the time they were doing some rebuilding, and personally told me of this fact . Stephen

ishmael

05-21-2007, 08:15 AM

P.I. Stazzer-Newt

05-21-2007, 08:31 AM

Hm. It sounds like it was past time for her to go. Was Cuttysark the last remaining clipper? I can't think of another one. There's probably some billionaire gearing up to build a replica. The Gilded Age redux.

Not the last, nor even the last on the Clyde, but the last Clyde built.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6676245.stm

outofthenorm

05-21-2007, 08:31 AM

Bulldoze the lot into the dock and forget this national disgrace.

Harsh words Andrew. Where can I go to read about the preservation? The real stuff I mean, not the pap for public consumption.

- Norm

TimH

05-21-2007, 09:08 AM

For the cost of one day in Iraq we could restore both clippers to original condition. What a tragedy for mankind....

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41384000/jpg/_41384847_carrickmore203.jpg

TimH

05-21-2007, 09:09 AM

Ill bet if the Italians had a clipper ship, she would be in mint condition and sailing...

martin schulz

05-21-2007, 09:25 AM

I am just happy that we don't have such "national pride" ships (one could count the PASSAT, but she is afloat in Travemünde), because once self appointed experts, politicians and trustee commitees get a hold of a boat that is able to inspire large masses the failure is sure.

Just the idea of preserving "original fabric" is utter crap. "wrongly" citing Gertrude Stein I'd say: A ship is a ship is a ship... Meaning a ship is not furniture and ceases to be a ship once it is not fit to be a ship.

And what kind of valuable education about boatbuilding can be archieved when a Mast is stepped through the keel?

Presuming Ed

05-21-2007, 09:49 AM

Richard Doughty and the other blithering idiots who have overseen the decay of the ship over the past half century were not attempting a proper rebuild; this was "conservation of the original fabric".

Andrew, thought your article in CB this month was very interesting.

I wonder how many other sports/hobbies/pastimes have an "original fabric" ethos, or a subset of players/hobbyists with an "original fabric" bent.

Cyclists? I belive that a lot of people like original groupsets on period frames. Golf? Don't know. Are there people who play with hickory shafts, wood woods and gutta percha balls? With cars, of course, as you say, provenance is all.

Vince Brennan

05-21-2007, 11:01 AM

Latest report on NPR is that she's a "total loss" but where they're getting their info from is unknown. Anyone have something definitive and attributable?

Presuming Ed

05-21-2007, 11:34 AM

Latest from the Beeb:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6675381.stm

TimH

05-21-2007, 11:37 AM

http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/photoessay_1759_images/0521070939_M_052107_sark6.jpg

http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/photoessay_1759_images/0521070638_M_052107_sark4.jpg

http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/photoessay_1759_images/0521070638_M_052107_sark5.jpg

http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/photoessay_1759_images/0521070939_M_052107_sark7.jpg

TimH

05-21-2007, 11:38 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/uk_enl_1179752114/img/1.jpg

TimH

05-21-2007, 11:39 AM

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42952000/gif/_42952661_cuty_sark_cs416.gif

TimH

05-21-2007, 11:41 AM

Chris Livett, chairman of Cutty Sark Enterprises which is repairing the clipper, said at the scene: "From where I stand there is not a huge amount of damage to the planking that was left on.
"There are pockets of charred planking and some have gone, but it doesn't look as bad as first envisaged."
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42950000/jpg/_42950647_flames203pa.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/inline_dashed_line.gif

In Pictures: Cutty Sark fire (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/6675593.stm)
'History itself has been lost' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6675915.stm)

The chief executive of the charitable Cutty Sark Trust, Richard Doughty, said: "What is special about Cutty Sark is the timbers, the iron frames that went to the South China Seas, and to think that that is threatened in any way is unbelievable, it's an unimaginable shock."
Following an inspection of the site on Monday afternoon, Mr Doughty said: "Buckling of the hull remains a big fear but until we do the measurements we are not going to know. "With my naked eye, as far as I have been able to see, the structure of the ship seems to be intact."

Bob Adams

05-21-2007, 11:57 AM

For the cost of one day in Iraq we could restore both clippers to original condition. What a tragedy for mankind....

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41384000/jpg/_41384847_carrickmore203.jpg

Please Sir, this is NOT the bilge.

Bruce Hooke

05-21-2007, 12:16 PM

I wonder how many other sports/hobbies/pastimes have an "original fabric" ethos, or a subset of players/hobbyists with an "original fabric" bent.

I don't know enough about the specifics of this situation to say anything about what the right choice is in this particular case, but I do think it is important to note that we are talking about here is essentially a museum piece rather than an object used for sports, hobbies, etc. In museum conservation, whether you are talking about paintings or furniture or ..., preserving the "original fabric" is a normally very high priority. The basic reason is that for doing real historical research it is MUCH more helpful to have the original material rather than a modern replacement. Some detail of the original material (from cellular level stuff to tool marks to...) can be critical in figuring out some bit of the past that had been lost.

Of course there are times when preserving the overall object has to take precedence over preserving the original fabric. It is also quite possible that with ships it makes sense to bend the "original fabric" rule more than one would for easier to preserve objects and that this is part of the problem with how Cutty Sark has been handled. Stepping the mast through the keel also sounds like a pretty questionable idea if the goal is preserve the original fabric.

My primary point is that I don't think it makes sense to trash the whole idea of preserving the original fabric.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt

05-21-2007, 12:39 PM

The reason that the "preserving the original fabric" is poor thinking - is that the thing is stored outdoors - in the rain, not too clever in our climate. - More accurately "preserving the original fabric" is better done seriously, or not at all - the serious version needs a rather large building - perhaps we can use this to test whether Brown is serious about streamlining the planning process.

This fire is likely to ask some the Brits some hard questions;
Do we want to remember our maritime heritage?
How much? - and what is that in cash?
Is this best served by the static display of the ruin of a ship?
If not, how?

TimH

05-21-2007, 12:49 PM

China should step up to the plate with some cash for this. If it wasnt for the opening of the tea trade, they would probably not be where they are today.
And the other Clipper I would think Australia would have some interest in.

martin schulz

05-21-2007, 02:59 PM

"With my naked eye, as far as I have been able to see, the structure of the ship seems to be intact."

The structure is intact???

If the structure were intact the boat would be able to sail!

martin schulz

05-21-2007, 03:03 PM

Although the PASSAT is not in the condition to sail, I think this is the least possible way to present maritime heritage.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/46/060715_Passat.jpg/800px-060715_Passat.jpg

J. Dillon

05-21-2007, 04:35 PM

The following from "The Log of The Cutty Sark"

I sure hope she can be rebuilt.

Perhaps the Royal Family can hock the Crown Jewels to rebuild her

http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/6200/cuttysark22zh0.jpg

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4486/cuttysark33yl3.jpg

skuthorp

05-21-2007, 05:51 PM

We are lucky enough and had the passionate people at the right time to push for the preservation of 2 iron Barquentines, one static and one sailing. Polly Woodside isfull of concrete cores and still afloat though she needs a fair amount of replating and this may now be done. As a kid I used to visit her as the Rona in rotten row on a local river. there was a wooden Barque, the Laira, and the hull of one of the German Kaisers 'Meteors'. All had been used as coal barges. A old watchman lived aboard and burnt timber from the Laira to keep himself warm. He was a drunk, but harmless and tolerated us kids climbing round the ships.

http://www.whitehat.com.au/Melbourne/Museums/PollyW.asp

http://www.sailaustralia.com.au/James%20Craig.htm

I last visited the Cutty Sark about 12 years ago and the debate between the preservers and the maintainers was just as hot then. It's a shame she burnt, but if the basic framing structure is still sound it may decide the argument. I think the state seems willing to spend the money, from the lottery I understand, and as a tourist site at Grenwich the ship is the most visible attraction. Still, I'm glad I saw her as she was.

Tom Robb

05-21-2007, 06:14 PM

The Queen could foot the bill from petty cash couldn't she?

skuthorp

05-21-2007, 06:22 PM

More to the point, do the skills exist any more?

brian.cunningham

05-21-2007, 06:58 PM

I couldn't believe my eyes when I read the news this morning. I've always dreamed of visiting the ship. My father and I built a 3ft model of her when I was a child. It truely inspired my interest in sailing ships.

At least there seems to be hope :(

Since the frames are made of iron, perhaps there's a better chance of it coming through this tragedy. Also lucky that it was 50% apart.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41384000/jpg/_41384847_carrickmore203.jpg

Didn't know there was another surviving clipper.
Great to know. I hope it sees fairer days.

Andrew Craig-Bennett

05-21-2007, 09:10 PM

More to the point, do the skills exist any more?

Yes, certainly.

Look here; this is the real business:

http://www.rupert.marks.btinternet.co.uk/

TimH

05-21-2007, 10:08 PM

Didn't know there was another surviving clipper.
Great to know. I hope it sees fairer days.

From the BBC article, this other one is schedued for demolishon because they dont have the funds to maintain it.:(

05-22-2007, 12:23 AM

http://www.australianheritagefleet.com.au/JCraig/jcPtBow.jpg

http://www.australianheritagefleet.com.au/JCraig/JCraig.html
We are doing our bit towards ship restoration. I imagine though we could donate some good timber towards it; not me personally mind but our pollies might think it's a good idea:D

skuthorp

05-22-2007, 12:43 AM

http://www.flickr.com/photos/philgyford/sets/72057594050723733/

70 odd wrecks around Stanley in the Falkland Islands. Anne's forebear arrived ther from Denmark as a chippy in a ship that was condemned in 1813. Married an Irish girl, generations of shipwrights followed. We have her grandfathers tools and I use them often.
Some are more restorable than others. The Great Britain was salvaged from here some years ago and is restored in Liverpool.
http://www.ssgreatbritain.org/

werner

05-22-2007, 06:45 AM

working on a multi milion pound historical ship (wood tar oil paint....) was there even a decent fire prevention or sprinkler installation??? Ever wich way you look at it this is a loss for us all.

Thinking about fire prevention, even working on your small boat is a must a smoke alarm extinguisher and waterhose could save your multi dollar non funded restoration project.

Andrew Craig-Bennett

05-22-2007, 06:47 AM

I was at a shipping industry dinner last night as the guest of a Classification Society; there was a lot of backchat along the lines of:

1. Where was the permit to work system?

2. Where was the fire watch?

Art Read

05-22-2007, 11:35 AM

I'd be very suprised if "CUTTY SARK" doesn't rise from the ashes. And hugely dissapointed if she doesn't. I couldn't care less if "original fabric" is strictly retained for archival purposes. It's a ship, not an oil painting. The ship is the thing, not the parts. Is your own little "classic" diminished just because you renew your jib sheets? A rub rail? Keelbolts? The spars? The engine? A few planks or frames?

The United States Supreme Court has ruled (for insurance purposes) that a ship becomes an entity unto it's own upon her launching and christening ceremony. She is transformed from a "congery of metal, wood and fabric into a unique entity." The transposition of several, or indeed, ALL parts of her structure does not create a "new" entity. The vessel exists, as a unique artifact, until it is lost, in it's entirety, by irrecoverable casuality.

I've read somewhere that a human being routinely replaces every cell in their body every seven years. Does that mean I am no longer the same man who first signed on to this forum in '98?

"Cutty Sark" has not been "lost". Perhaps she has been "jump started" into a new, more appropriate, role as Great Britan's ambassador of your nautical heritage. Rebuild her. Properly. Sail her again! We did it a few years ago with "CONSTITUTION". (Would that we had saved "FLYING CLOUD"...) Yes, it will cost a lot. We spent a fortune on "Old Ironsides". Yes, there are probably more "pressing" uses for public monies. But few that will have such symbolic impact. Wouldn't she look alot better afloat on the Thames, tugging at her moorings, than in that godforsaken "parking lot" you've had her in for so long? Landlocked, dreamy young boys, and experienced, jaded, old men, both yearning for the sea, have probably built more models built of that ship than any other in history. You're not really considering bulldozing that are you?

(And please, for God's sake, check the smoke alarms on "VICTORY"!)

Andrew Craig-Bennett

05-22-2007, 11:48 AM

The chief executive of the charitable Cutty Sark Trust, Richard Doughty, said: "What is special about Cutty Sark is the timbers, the iron frames that went to the South China Seas, and to think that that is threatened in any way is unbelievable, it's an unimaginable shock."

That, alas, is the mindset of the Cutty Sark Trust.

To most of us, there is nothing special about "..the timbers, the iron frames that went to the South Seas.." - they can all be replicated, we have no shortage of good craftsmen and we have the materials - even the wrought iron.

To us, what is special about an old ship, like other old industrial artefacts, is to see how she actually worked, by keeping her in action.

But they don't think that way. They'll collect the insurance money and their Lottery grant and build a Disney clipper ship on a glass pond.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt

05-22-2007, 12:02 PM

....

To most of us, there is nothing special about "..the timbers, the iron frames that went to the South Seas.." - they can all be replicated, we have no shortage of good craftsmen and we have the materials - even the wrought iron.

To us, what is special about an old ship, like other old industrial artefacts, is to see how she actually worked, by keeping her in action.

But they don't think that way. They'll collect the insurance money and their Lottery grant and build a Disney clipper ship on a glass pond.

Did you catch the today program this morning where Naughty had not one but two philosophers discussing how much of the fabric could change (my grandfather's axe and all that..) before it became something other than the original craft.

Apparently unaware of the Slocum quote.

Now, it is a law in Lloyd's that the _Jane_ repaired all out of the
old until she is entirely new is still the _Jane_. The _Spray_ changed
her being so gradually that it was hard to say at what point the old
died or the new took birth, and it was no matter.
Text (http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/slgln10.txt)

That said, a symbol stands for whatever you want it to - and that ship was docked there as a memorial to the ships and the men - though not specifically the clippers.

Every time I see one of these I am reminded of somethin my father said - "As soon as a thing is perfected - it becomes irrelevant".

Art Read

05-22-2007, 12:20 PM

That would be a shame, Andrew. I hope you'll write a "Letter to the Editor" expressing your views.

Andrew Craig-Bennett

05-22-2007, 12:45 PM

As a memorial to the ships and the men, she failed, because professional seamen coming aboard her were often disgusted by what they saw - there were many incorrect details, such as the hatch wedges being back to front, which offended them. When your life has depended on the hatch wedges being right, you don't want to see them done wrong.

She became irrelevant with the opening of the Suez Canal.

Oddly, there is no preserved example of a British 'tweendeck cargo liner - the sort of ship that replaced the Cutty Sark and which flourished for the next hundred years.

Bruce Keefauver

05-23-2007, 05:15 PM

John B

05-23-2007, 05:33 PM

What vessel would be a good example of that type?

Andrew Craig-Bennett

05-23-2007, 06:17 PM

ACB - Didn't you mention a few (probably more than a few; too many?) years back, that an old Brit tween-decker cargo-liner was located in China and that there might be some sort of attempt at saving her?

Bruce, I spent quite a while on that wild goose chase in 1998 - there was a bunch of people, with some funding, looking for a ship of the type to preserve and they found that Lloyds Register showed that Cosco still owned the ex Glen Line "Glenogle". But that was simply because in the bad old days my colleagues never bothered to fill in the forms. My friend and collegue Zhang Jing tracked her down and found we had sold her in early '96 to a local company and she had been scrapped at Nantong a few months later.

Shame, as she was indeed an excellent example of the type, and was indeed the last.

martin schulz

05-24-2007, 12:23 PM

Just an example:

JENSINE
http://www.tallship-fan.de/images/segl399a.jpg
1852 built, still sails!

VANADIS
http://www.tallship-fan.de/images/segl201i.jpg
1868 built, still sails (just TWO original ribs)

NORDEN
http://www.tallship-fan.de/images/segl148e.jpg
1870 built, still sails

Oh yes, ALL of them were cared for by private people WITHOUT any founding, subsidies or other means to get public money!

Andrew Craig-Bennett

05-24-2007, 12:32 PM

1808:

http://www.atmg93.dsl.pipex.com/003.JPG

http://www.atmg93.dsl.pipex.com/PICTURES/smackdocument..jpg

martin schulz

05-24-2007, 12:43 PM

1808:

http://www.atmg93.dsl.pipex.com/003.JPG

I knew about the BOADICEA of course and I am quite sure there are other boats around which a also quite old.
Andrew, what do you think? How much "original fabric" is still in the BOADICEA?

Kestrel1891

05-24-2007, 02:30 PM

Note that Boadicea's build is describrd as "Clencher" (Lapstrake). Today she is carvel planked. Still the same boat though.

Andrew may be able to confirm but I think Boadicea has been rebuilt twice, so not only is there no "original fabric", but there isn't any of the rebuilt boat either. Still the same boat though I reckon.

The best thing they could do with Cutty Sark is rebuild it properly and take it sailing. I fear though she will be preserved as a heap of burnt metal and a container full of planks. Original Fabric!

Andrew Craig-Bennett

05-24-2007, 05:45 PM

I entirely agree.

Yes, Boadicea has been rebuilt twice; once in the 1870's and once in the 1970's.

Actually, I happen to know, because Michael Frost said so, that there is one section of deadwood in Boadicea that dates from 1808! He kept it on purpose! He rebuilt her to an incredibly high spec., with greenheart planking, etc., and took out the last of her old grown frames, which were joggled to take the clinker planks, at that time.

Thirty-odd years ago, when I sailed from Walton, there were two boats there that had been "doubled over" over the original clinker planking - "Alan II" and "Good Intent". Both have now been rebuilt with new planking. I don't know "Alan II"'s age but "Good Intent" was built in 1862.