"Pilgrim" Sailboat: what do you know about her?

[Axel]

After visiting many, many web sites offering stock plans for sailboats, I have located one that meets most of my standards for a beautiful sailboat around 20-22’. Since all of you fellows offer good advice and comments on questons posted here, I will welcome all your inputs regarding my idea of building the “Pilgrim” sailboat that appears in D. N. Goodchild’s page (http://www.dngoodchild.com/divide_for_sail_boats.htm). where you may see a picture of the boat. The pic of the boat lines will show what she looks like. (sorry: After many tries to include the image from Imagestation, I have failed!!)

This is a traditional design, open boat 21’ 6” LOA, round bottom (vs. hard chine), real transom (vs. canoe stern or double ended boats), nice sheer line and not-so-difficult to build. I would think of building her upside-down, strip planked over plywood bulkheads and frames.

I wonder why most of the stock plans available include a cabin for sailboats 17’ or bigger, as if open boats had less charm. This is why I was happy to find “Pilgrim” that may be built as open boat (or with a cabin as an alternative).

My dream sailboat is the “Flatfish” from Joel White, absolutely beautiful but quite difficult to build. I am good with tools and wood, but reckon that I cannot accomplish the task by myself, so I plan to get professional assistance.

Having said so, do you have any more information about this boat? The leaflet and plates indicate a “North Shore Class Auxiliary Sloop”, that gave me no answers on the Internet. What do you think of her, how difficult seems to be and any other comments you may have. I will appreciate your advice. In the meantime, I will try to master the way to post pictures.

[rbgarr]

That Pilgrim design is probably as difficult to build as the Flatfish and the Flatfish comes with complete plans. There are also numerous websites by Haven builders, which is pretty much a smaller version of the Flatfish.

[Daniel Noyes]

Axel
I like your idea! some real great boats in the goodchild catalog!
check out DN goodchild design 5423 labeled "17' sloop". also a real beauty.
Donald Brascom is building a hard chine sloop to DN G.C. plans.
I was heavily influenced by decked knockabout sloops when I designed the Ipswich Bay 18.
The IB 18 uses extremely simple dory construction to produce a smooth, fair and fast hull. you might use a similar building technique in puting together a 22-24 footer. I have done drawings for a 28 ft'er of similar construction to the IB 18 so 22' should be relatively simple for you to build and sail.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

http://dansdories.googlepages.com/Slide30.JPG/Slide30-large.jpg (http://dansdories.googlepages.com/Slide30.JPG/Slide30-full.jpg)
http://dansdories.googlepages.com/Slide13.JPG/Slide13-large.jpg (http://dansdories.googlepages.com/Slide13.JPG/Slide13-full.jpg)

[Axel]

Hi! Thanks rbgarr for yor comments. One point I did not mention in my first description of the Pilgrim Sailboat is that I would prefer a design that does not have running backstays, as the pretty Flatfish has. My sailing has been always lazy, enjoying every minute of the day and for this reason, I would try to select a boat easier to handle. You are right that the Flatfish has complete drawings and books with instructions to look for. And Daniel, thanks for the pic of your design: Nice boat indeed. The Pilgrim has definitely a heavier displacement than yours and many other more modern boats. I wil post a picture of the lines very soon for you to see.

Is there anybody with some info about this boat and about the "North Shore Class Auxiliary Sloop" that appears in the booklet? Any ideas?

[Axel]

You may visit this site to look for this sailboat lines: http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2091831822

[Daniel Noyes]

This is a traditional design, open boat 21’ 6” LOA, round bottom (vs. hard chine), real transom (vs. canoe stern or double ended boats), nice sheer line and not-so-difficult to build. I would think of building her upside-down, strip planked over plywood bulkheads and frames.

I wonder why most of the stock plans available include a cabin for sailboats 17’ or bigger, as if open boats had less charm. This is why I was happy to find “Pilgrim” that may be built as open boat (or with a cabin as an alternative).



Hi Axel
Wow!! you werent kidding when you said the Pilgrim was heavier displacement than my Ipswich Bay 18' knockabout sailing dory. From the photo on Dn Good's page and the lack of a cabin I assumed she was a a little lighter craft. The lack of a cabin usually has to do with fast sailing. From looking at the lines you posted it seems the Pilgrim design is quite burdensome, mabey the added weight, windage, and lost working deck space would be a practical trade off for the overnight and stowage capabilities of a cabin.
It seems that if you could live with a little lighter boat you might gain a lot in terms of sailing performance and ease of ownership, you can easily trailer a light displacment 22 ft.er but not Pilgrim has a full keel. Im glad to see you looking for a transom hull, much more boat for a given length and a much more powerfull hull in terms of it's ability to stand up to a press of sail.
Dan

[Axel]

Hi! Thank you Daniel for your comments. I had my ideas and doubts about the "weight" of the boat but wanted to get comments from the experts.

Perhaps I have limited myself too much regarding specs, since good looks are for me very important. Considering the details ( rather, limitations) of design I have included in my previous posts, which sailboats would come to your mind?

Other reader's suggestions, also very welcomed.

[kenjamin]

I was going to say Caledonia Yawl but it's probably too easy to trailer and she's an efficient double-ender but it would be good training for building that ultimate boat you want to build someday. When I was picking out my design to build, I really wanted the Alpha-Beachcomber dory but for once in my life I chose the more practical design knowing I'd never get my family in a somewhat tippy dory more than once. The CY can do a lot of things well and looks darn good doing them but someday I still want to build the Alpha. I'm learning that a large component of boat building is dreaming about designs so dream on brother!!!;)

[Daniel Noyes]

Hi Axel
before I talk you out of the Pilgrim... how will you use the boat? If it's on an mooring to be used for daysailing with family and friends this may be a good boat, when I say it's tooo heavy to get up and go...well mabey you dont want to sail at speeds over 10 knts. also if you may experience rough water, steep chop and confused seas regularly you may want a little heavier boat to shoulder through the waves. The form of the hull reminds me of our local Gloucster fishing schooners, fine boats. I noticed the plan calls for an auxillary 5 hp engine, were you considering installing that?
happy dreaming,
Dan

[Tom Hunter]

Axel,

You certainly have good taste in boats, she is a beauty.

Dan is certainly right that you are not going to go tens knots in either flatfish or pilgrim but you might have much more comfortable sailing in rough conditions. I doubt either boat is terribly slow, the Flatfish looks to have plenty of sail area, I could not find sail area on the Pilgrim, and I could not tell if Pilgrim is gaff rigged or Marconi either.

When the word Auxilary is used to describe a sailboat in the first half of the 20th century it means with an engine. I have no idea why its called a North Shore given that it is supposed to have been designed in California.

I completely disbelieve the statement that the 5 hp motor will drive the boat at 9 knts under power alone.

I second rbgarr's reccomendation that you get full plans for a similar boat because I am sure they are out there. The type is not that unusual, its a popular length and there ought to be plenty of plans out there. A quick look at the Atkin site shows a similar boat called Princess Betty though I think the Flatfish is a better boat.

Finally if your going to build it yourself, and your not a serial builder you ought to build the boat of your dreams, not the boat that is second from your dreams.

[Keith Wilson]

Very nice boat - but I don't think it will be significantly easier to build than the Flatfish. They're both about the same size, weight, and general type, they're both carvel planked over steamed frames, they're both mostly open, they both have a ballast keel and a similar rig. The Flatfish has some fussy Herreshoff-esque details, which I suspect were originally added to make folks feel like they were getting something for their money when they paid a bunch more for a Herreshoff boat than a similar one from another yard, but these don't add all that much to the building time or effort - and you can leave some of them out if you like. (the purists are now turning green, but that's OK)

IMHO, if the Flatfish is your dream boat, then you should build a Flatfish. And it you decide later it isn't, it will be a lot easier to sell than a design hardly anyone living ever heard of, even if it is a really good boat.

[Axel]

Hi! thank you for your comments. This "Pilgrim" sailboat has 208 sq.ft. sail area marconi rigged, compared with the 268 sq.ft. of the Flatfish.

I am presently living in Spain and so far my sailing has been day sailing in sailboats up to 20' I have owned since the late 1970's in Italy and now here, besides sailing in some friend's larger craft. My present sailing grounds are between Alicante and Valencia (Americas Cup grounds this year) from late Spring to early Fall, and so far I have found fair sea and wind conditions. (In other words, in such small sailboats, I do not go out if the conditions are not fair).

Spanish regulations indicate that all sailboats must have auxiliary engines to go in and out of the moorings. An outboard engine hanging in the transom of a traditional looking sailboat is not a good sight, but I rather prefer this to an inboard. I have been following some WBF threads on the subject to get your experience and seems that the offer of small diesel or gasoline engines is pretty scarce.

The Atkins' "Princess Betty" is also a nice boat but much in the line of the "Pilgrim" regarding draft and displacement. I am looking into lighter boats and will post some pics for you to see. Tom: In fact, there are not so many good looking sailboats over the Internet that satisfy my rather narrow list of conditions:

- Traditional looking, with nice sheerline,
- Round bottom (vs. hard chine or multi chine hulls)
- Real transom (vs. canoe stern or double enders)
- Open boat or with a small cuddy for sails, etc. (no real cabin)
- Marconi or gaff rigged (vs. Ketch or yawl)
- As stiff as reasonable for the size (vs. "fast racing machines")

In other words, a pretty sailboat to sail lazily enjoying every second of it, as has been in the past. Your comments are very welcomed.

[Tom Hunter]

Axel,

I saw your criteria,

I think this boat is to small:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid212/pefdc6931b71ad0a07e66372c57448540/ed66265c.jpg

And its more along the lines that Dan Noyes was suggesting.

I assume you have already looked at the H-25 but they are so pretty that I am going to post one here anyway :D

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid221/p3b3ad01fda46af3b74cf1131cd3b9353/eb99089e.jpg

Have you looked at the smaller Freindship sloops?

This one may be too large for your requirements, but they range in size from 42' down to 18'

http://www.boat-links.com/PT/PT2000/Sloop9956.jpg


Just a few thoughts, though you may have looked at all of these.

[Axel]

Hi! Tom, thank you for the pics. Beautiful boats indeed! The WB thread on the most beautiful boat under 30' is a delight to see and to get envious.

Besides the specs, there is a very real constraint: my bank manager and my wife try to keep me on the right track...:o This is the reason why I try to keep the 6 m (20') as the limit, both on my ability to handle the project, and on my resources. All your comments are very welcomed.

[Tom Hunter]

Here a Friendship in the 6 meter range. Fisherman using hand tools used to build these over the winter. That means modern men with power tools can build them in two or three years.

http://www.fss.org/fs232.jpg

Aslo there are some interesting boats that meet your criteria here: http://www.herreshoff.org/frames/mmvtboatsframe.htm

[Axel]

Tom: THAT's a good thought! Thanks for the Friendship pic. By the way, where I can find plans for such a sailboat? I have visited Stevenson's web page but it seems to me that his are simplified Frienship-like small sailboats with hard chine hulls. Your photo shows a round bottom hull, doesn't it? I would add to your motto that besides being a carpenter, etc, a sailor should be a little nuts to follow up his dream.

Herreshoff's page is very nice. It is as tempting and painfull as for a diabetic to look at the window of a candy and pastries store!!:p Thank you.

I also like the Dark Harbor 12, and found a page (besides WB Store) http://www.selway-fisher.com/OtherDB.htm#HARB that offers a newer design on her lines. You may look at it, and, what do you think about it (or "she")?

[Tom Hunter]

Axel

The people at the Freindship Sloop Society can answer all your questions about the type, I am sure they can help you find plans as well: http://www.fss.org/

The Dark Harbor will be faster than the Freindship, Freindships were originally built for lobstering and they are not terribly fast even compared to other workboat types of the same era. They do look really, really good, they are comfortable and you can put a lot of people in the big cockpit which is nice if your a social person.

By the way, if you are a native of Spain by New England standards you are automatically a social person. ;)

My eye is untrained, so I can't tell you if the Selway Fisher design would be better or worse than the Flatfish or the Dark Harbor. All of them certainly look good and both Joel White and BB Crowninshield are well known designers.

[mdh]

You may find some of these interesting. Speaking of the true classics, that is.

http://aldendesigns.com/

[Axel]

Thanks a lot for the input. I will do my homework during the weekend. By the way, I had always related John G. Alden to elegant, beautiful, large yachts, but did not know that they also had smaller craft.

Just a story: when I was living in Italy, sailed with two friends for about two hours and when we arrived to a mooring I told the barman: "..we have sailed for two hours to get a beer..." The italian barman told his mate: "..Hey! Paolo, these crazy fellows wanted a beer and had come sailing for TWO hours to get it, instead of coming here by bus!!"