First time builder needs plan advice...

[lobo]

Greetings to all you inspirational boat builders!

I am new to the form and was hoping to get some sound advice on a first project (how many times have you heard that?!). The problem is not so much due to a lack of information out there. On the contrary, there is so much amazing knowledge available that I am simply overwhelmed. I am not a boat builder. I was bitten by the sailing bug as a boy and have only now, 30 years later, decided on building my own boat to enjoy day sailing and even overnight cruising/camping with the kids. I live in British Columbia and would consider a seaworthy vessel that can handle the sometimes rough waters in and around the Georgia Straight.


So I am at a crossroads.



I planned on only ever building one boat, but perhaps I should build a less complex dinghy as a first project and then take on a cruiser thereafter. Or, perhaps I should plow into something larger right away. Here are some of my considerations, and given where I live and the choppy/rougher conditions of the Straight even in mild weather, I would be interested in hearing from others who have been in a similar situation considering a seaworthy first project. I know this is a very subjective topic, and it really depends a lot on the builder, skill, and time, but any advice of what NOT to touch would also be helpful.


Dinghy Candidates
Michael Storer - Goat Island Skiff 15’ 6’’
Appears the easiest to build out of all the designs.

http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISplan.html


John Welsford – Navigator 14’ 9’’

This is a stunning little boat!
http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/navigator/index.htm


Paul Gartside – Riff 12’
http://www.gartsideboats.com/riff.php


Paul Gartside – Skylark 14’
I like this dinghy. Beautiful lines.

http://www.gartsideboats.com/skylark.php



François Vivier – Ebihen 14’ 9’’

I LOVE all of these designs, but the detail seems overwhelming, and the cost significant
http://www.vivierboats.com/html/stock_classic.html#Ebihen

Cruisers
Stevenson Projects

I have read a lot about these boats and and am concerned of the seaworthiness outside of Lake Sailing. Many people have insisted that the design of the hull creates an unsafe boating experience. I have ordered the plans to learn more
http://stevproj.com/


Bolger – Chebacco
http://www.chebacco.com/

Many thanks for any comments on the above candidates. I look forward to participating readily in these forums with photos of my progress.

L.

[kenjamin]

You've said you're not a boat builder but what exactly have you built? How many tools do you own and do you know how to use them? I think you're right about the Goat Island Skiff's easy build but Navigator will be more able when the going gets rough. Good luck with your project.

[Thorne]

You will need to define your needs, available tools and building space, cargo/passengers, propulsion types, budget etc.

Then we can help.

I'll strongly recommend chartering a boat and kicking around in it -- particularly in your desired sailing area. I singlehanded my San Juan 21 around there for two weeks in the 90's -- and don't think the smaller dinghies like the GIS would be suitable for real family cruising under most conditions.

Depending on the number and size of "the kids", the Chebacco may be the easiest build for most boat. Do a search on that name here, you will find links to various resources -- these boats are used in your area for family cruising by some.

Your idea of building a small dinghy is a good one -- consider making a small pram tender FIRST to use with whatever boat you LATER build for family camping. Build it in the same style of your desired larger boat - stitch 'n glue, lapstrake ply, solid wood, etc. You will get a lot of experience, pick up new tools and skills, and find out if building in that style suits you.

[lobo]

I've tackled a number of smaller woodworking projects which led to the acquisition of some tools - jigsaw, drill kits, sanding/staining equipment, table saw, clamps, minor stuff.etc. I spent a summer building replica Shelby Cobras laying-up glass in molds and grinding back prior to release. Brutal work!

Thanks for the tip on the Navigator over the GIS.

cheers
L.

[donald branscom]

We are all at the crossroads everyday but don't know it.

Have you ever built anything ?

I would get these two books to look at while you decide.
"Boatbuilding" by Howard Cahppelle and "American Small Sailing Craft" by Howard Chappelle.

In the second book he talks about waht differnt boats designs do and why.

I agree about the Chebacco recommendation by the way.
Building a dingy could take you a year and cost over a grand. Why not put that money and work into the boat you really want.

[outofthenorm]

I would add Greg Rossel's new book "the Boatbuilder's Apprentice". First rate writing and a really broad overview of everything a newbie to boat building needs to know. Available from our host. - Norm

"An overview of the major wooden boat construction methods, includes stitch-and-glue, strip-planking, carvel, and lapstrake. Plus it covers tools, fasteners, adhesives and coatings."

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/images/300697.jpg

[JimD]

My two cents: First, build an eight foot dinghy to gain some experience and because you will need a tender for your bigger boat and most of the small boats you have mentioned are too big for a tender for a pocket cruiser. So try something like this with plenty of built in flotation https://www.boatdesigns.com/products.asp?dept=867 :

http://glen-l.com/designs/hankinson/kh-images/046sabo-sgbare-kh.jpg



https://www.boatdesigns.com/images/046Sabotina.jpg

http://glen-l.com/designs/hankinson/kh-images/046sabotina-l.gif

or similarly this https://www.boatdesigns.com/products.asp?dept=435 :

http://www.glen-l.com/designs/sailboat/sailboat-images/dsn-8bla3.jpg

Then decide what you want to tow it with. While you're building the tender you'll have plenty of time to consider and reconsider the choices for the cruiser.

Edited to add: It is amazing just how much carefree fun a family can have with a little boat like this in between labouring away on the big one for a couple years.

[boatbear]

I’ll second (or third) the suggestion that building a little pram dinghy out of plywood will be a very rewarding and useful start. It won’t cost much or take much time and you and your family will have a lot of fun.
I built a 10’ pram first, using a minimum of tools. It wasn’t graceful, and I made a few silly mistakes, but had 3 years of fun rowing, fishing, learning to sail (sewed up a sprit sail out of calico). My next boat was so much better built, and I know that the one currently on the drawing board will be better still, and even better suited to the needs that I now know about from experience.
Have fun, and welcome to the forum.
Charlie

[kenjamin]

Hello again lobo,

The one thing that you will learn if you hang out on this forum long enough is that there is no perfect design. They are all a collection of compromises in a way. Each will have its strengths and weaknesses. For example when I said the Goat Island Skiff looks like a quick build and Navigator more able in the rough stuff, I really wasn't reccommending one over the other. I really like the Goat Island Skiff a lot. Especially for a first time builder like yourself, it could be just right. It rows well, sails well, and can carry more crew and sail better than something short and fat like a tender. If you want to get out on the water quickly in something that can really sail well, then the GIS is a very good choice. If the weather looks bad, you just don't go out that day. So much of seaworthiness is between the ears of the captain. Much of your decision, like Thorne said, needs to keep in mind your abilities, your needs and wants, and especially your budget. If one only has enough money for one boat for the next five years, then the GIS looks really good. If the weather looks threatening, you just don't go very far out. If the wind really starts to kick up and you're getting nervous, put in a reef and head for the launch site. The GIS will take you there swiftly.

[BrianY]

Here's one that will meet you specifications for day sailing and overnight camp crusing with the kids

Alaska by Don Kurylko

http://www.dhkurylko-yachtdesign.com/build.htm

If it appeals to you, I'd advise contacting the designer about its suitability as a first project. It's strip planked which means that you'll be dealing with a lot of relatively small pieces of wood so if you screw one up it's no big deal and thousands of first timers have built strip planked kyaks and canoes, so it might just be the thing for you.

Anyway, it's a thought.

And do heed the advice to build something smaller first. I'm just finishing up my small "warm up" project and I have learned a lot about working with epoxy, plywood and paint. This knowledge will certainly help me when I tackle my "real" first boat.

[Peter Belenky]

For intelligent design combining extreme ease of construction and good sailing qualities, it is hard to beat the work of Phil Bolger. There are many resources for his boats on the web, including the aforementioned Chebacco (which is probably too complex for your purposes). Some useful sites include:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Bolger
http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/sites2.htm
http://chebacco.com/
http://www.hallman.org/bolger/
http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/boat/bolger.html

and a Yahoo! discussion group here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/

You can also buy his books for endless fascination and instruction.

Regarding a boat capable of rough-water daysailing for construction by a new builder, one question would be how easy you want beaching and trailering to be. One place to start looking is the single-handed schooner here:
http://www.instantboats.com/boats.html

It would be good for sailing in rough and deep water, because it has a ballasted daggerboard and is long and narrow enough to punch through a chop without being stopped. Beaching is possible by lifting out the board and rudder, but that process is too awkward for sailing right onto a beach. It is easy to trailer, being just a big, decked skiff, but it has minimal room for daysailing and less than pup-tent camping accommodations onboard.

A different solution, bigger, heavier, more stable, beachable but safe in rough water and with plenty of room for camp living onboard is the Birdwatcher II:
http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_main.htm
http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Birdwatcher/
It demonstrates one of Bolger's innovative solutions to the problem of combining room below with self-righting ability in an unballasted boat. There is a high cabin to provide righting moment in a knockdown, windows all around to permit sailing from inside, and an open hatchway on the centerline to give standing headroom when upright while remaining above the water when the boat is on its beam ends.

Then there are the Micro, which has a ballasted keel and real offshore capability, and its big sister, the Long Micro. These are heavier, more complex, harder to trailer, and not beachable.
http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

What's more important to you, spending time on the water or being hip deep in a construction project for a year or more? If you haven't been thru' the process it may be better to take on something simple to see how your interest holds up over the course of the project.
Nowadays, there is a less traditional but much faster way to construct boats called "Stitch and Glue". It's a composite of plywood, fiberglass tape and ,you guessed it, epoxy resin. These boats are every bit as good as their "Glue and Screw" bretheran and will allow you to get on the water sooner to sharpen your sailing skills.
I'm attracted to the more modern designs by Jacques Mertens
http://www.boatplans-online.com/
but, his work is not to everyone's taste.

[JimD]

No offence to anyone but a GIS in the Straight of George is just plain crazy talk. If you must build a small, open boat then at least go for a stable one like the Welsford designs. But really there is a huge difference between a 14 or 15 foot boat and a 20 footer like Chebacco. And no matter how big 20 feet seems in your driveway it will still seem small out on that body of water. So build on the larger end of the spectrum. John Welford's 17 foot Pathfinder would serve you far better that the much smaller Navigator, etc.

Have you looked at Paul Fisher's designs? Some good choices there, too. This 18 foot Highlander has room for a family and enough size for safety, and would still not be too much work to build http://www.selway-fisher.com/index.htm:

http://www.selway-fisher.com/High18p1.jpg

[Thorne]

Kenjamin -

I'm afraid I have to agree with Jim D above - a small open boat is no place to have a family aboard when the weather kicks up in the San Juans or Straits of Georgia. This isn't daysailing on a lake, so you can't rely on being able to put a reef in and head to the ramp. And many of the anchorages are exposed to weather and tidal changes.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=vancouver,+bc&ie=UTF8&ll=48.859294,-123.011169&spn=1.34259,2.49939&z=9&om=1

As I mentioned earlier, much depends on the size of the family and their tolerance for camping on boats. There are a lot of charters in the area, well worth a try to get a feeling for what you are comfortable with, plus of course finding cruising grounds you want to re-visit in your own boat.

[kenjamin]

Sorry guys. I'm not familiar with the Strait of Georgia but please note that I did not reccommend lobo take a GIS there and learn how to sail. I was just trying to make the point that much of seaworthiness is the result of knowing one's boat and not asking more of it than it can deliver. From the map you included, Thorne, there does seem to be protected bays around there where a newbie could learn to sail safely. I just know that the GIS is not much more trouble or expense to build than a tender and it's a lot more boat. JimD reccommended an 8' pram. Where is he supposed to sail that??? I assumed that the 15' GIS would be at least as seaworthy as an 8' pram. They are both built with the same seat/flotation chambers. (Note to self: Never argue with a guy with 12,000 posts).

[Thorne]

Several of us have recommended building a tender, for reasons stated above, i.e. increased experience, tool collection, etc. But wait...there are more reasons!

Have you ever taken a larger boat camping? Particularly in areas like the PNW with a large tidal change, a tender is ESSENTIAL to get ashore. Many of the Parks have mooring rather than docks, so if you have your family with you and dont' fancy swimming -- you need a tender to boatcamp.

We aren't suggesting that sailing an 8' tender would be as much fun as sailing a GIS -- great design, BTW. But if you look at what he said in the original post, he will need a boat that can take him and 'the kids' camping in this area. And to do that he'll need a tender of some sort.

Funny story -> I wasn't used to the large tides up there when I trailered my old SJ21 up to Anacortes and singlehanded around the area for two weeks. I was towing an old inflatable half the size of my boat, and on Sucia I rowed in and tied it to a log on the beach and went for a hike.

When I got back all I could see was the end tubes of the inflatable sticking out of the water, but luckily I'd run the line up the shore with a slipknot, so was able to release the line and watch the inflatable pop into the air like a whale sounding...

;0 )

[kenjamin]

Ok, Thorne, I get your point. We are very spoiled down here in Florida with seemingly endless miles of beach and saltwater streams to duck into so a tender is not big on my list of things to do. What I heard lobo say is that he used to enjoy sailing and he wants to enjoy it again. You can enjoy sailing an eight foot tender but you can REALLY ENJOY!!! sailing a GIS if you know what I mean. In any case, lobo, you will need to learn your building skills and get reacquainted with sailing. Whether you will eventually need a tender or not, there is a world of difference between an 8' boat and a 15' one. Lobo, when you "got bit by the sailing bug," what was it in? And Thorne, if lobo somehow managed to build a Navigator, would he still need a tender? What if lobo built a GIS and later a Chebacco? He could probably then sell the GIS and slap together a tender in a couple of weekends. Just a thought, not looking for a fight.

[Thorne]

I think you are right in that a Navigator might not require a tender in the area, but in some cases you'd want one to let you escape the beach at low tide. I really like the Welsford designs!

[lobo]

Many thanks to all for the great feedback and dialog. I never expected this response and I am truly grateful. A few take-aways for me.

Seriously consider a smaller project as a building block to something bigger. A pram tender may very well whet my appetite for the larger build, help me collect the tools required, and give me an idea if I am cut-out for the bigger build or more suited to buy something to sail now.
Read, a lot. There are an abundance of resources, both in the bookstore and on the internet. Hell, I bet that for the popular wooden boat designs, there are enough photo diaries and “social” boatmen to help even the most helpless amateur through the rough spots. This gives confidence to simply start
Bolger designs are do-able. Not the prettiest, but practical and many seem to fit conditions around here.
Other designs have caught my eye – Highlander (thank you Jim), Alaska beach Cruiser (thank you Brian), Pathfinder (again, thanks Jim). This could go on indefinitely and much will be based on what I feel I can do. I repeat, I am an amateur but very, very, stubborn and likely over-confident. Perhaps good qualities. And by the passion expressed here, maybe a cooler and a few chairs would bring some local builders over to the boatshed for some strategy and advice.
I need to find the balance between beauty, functionality, and complexity. I have to agree with Thorne. I cannot stop admiring Welsford’s Pathfinder. I am blown away by the beauty of this craft and its suitability for this area. But the complexity scares me silly. As for my needs, I have 4 kids. I need a bigger boat if they all want to sail/camp, but realistically, it will be me and 2 or 3 boys.
Thanks for all the contributions to this thread!

lobo
:)

[James McMullen]

Lobo, the Port Townsend Wooden Boat show is coming up in just a couple of weeks--the weekend of Sept 8-9. If you could manage to get yourself there you could see up close and personal a whole bunch of different small boats including many of the ones you have already listed--and including some you've missed (where's my favorite designer, Oughtred, huh? :confused: :D) My own favorite boat for use in these turbulent waters is one of the many variations of Oughtred's double-ended beach cruiser.

I'll be there at PT with Rowan myself. . . . .

http://inlinethumb51.webshots.com/5682/2968773630088484686S425x425Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2968773630088484686zyVgyn)
Rowan with one reef in the fores'l in Upright Channel, San Juan Islands

[kenjamin]

Lobo, many designers have books out that are not plan specific but cover every facet of building their boats. Iain Oughtred's "Clinker Plywood Boatbuilding Manual" got me through my recent building of my Caledonia Yawl. There are also plan specific web sites that are very helpful. For the Caledonia Yawl it is
http://www.mavc2002.com/cyforum/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=da2dcab3738143c6a18b45208bd15736
Some designers like Arch Davis pride themselves in the completeness of their plans and have step by step instructions, instructional videos, and even time-saving kits. I love Arch Davis's Laughing Gull design – salty and gets up on a plane and goes! John Welsford has five tender designs if you go that route.
As for boatbuilding in general, stubbornness is a great quality to have to follow through on your first project. There will be mistakes made and some may even be hard to fix but stay stubborn and finish the thing. Make sure you get the right tools for the job you're doing and BTW, boatbuilding is a great excuse to buy a bunch of new tools. Good luck with your first build. Don't bite off more than you can chew. And watch out for Iain Oughtred's designs – they are intoxicating in their beauty. Rowan above is a prime example. Oh, and by the way, the three Bolger Chebaccos at Mystic WoodenBoat Show this year were really pretty boats too. Phil Bolger draws beautiful boats as well as his famous "square" ones.

[JimD]

the complexity scares me silly.

Perhaps build a complex 7 or 8 footer such as Welsford's Tender Behind or Paul Fisher's RedShank. It will teach you virtually everything you need to know in unintimidating miniature:

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Redsp1.jpg
http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/tenderbehind/tenderbeh1pic.gif

[JimD]

(Note to self: Never argue with a guy with 12,000 posts).

12,000 posts just means I'm opinionated, not necessarily right :). (I like the GIS, but the PNW is a long way from Goat Island. Around here capsizing isn't so much a refreshing way to cool off on a hot day as it is a limb numbing, life threatening way to ruin your whole day).

[boatbear]

Lobo, your summary is excellent - please keep us posted on developments. And yes, passion is a useful tool to have in your kit.
Charlie

[lobo]

So I have a question. What is this groups view of the Stevenson project's Weekender and Vacationer? I received the plans today (of all things) and after reviewing the plans and watching the DVD this evening I realize that the construction is relatively simple.

But, I also read a very critical analysis of the sailing specifications (very poor displacement relative to the boat design) and I am still not sure that it will be seaworthy for local Vancouver waters, nor do I believe it will provide the true experience for building a boat that will last the test of time

Thoughts??

Jim, Welsford's Tender Behind doesn't betray the salty style of his beautiful designs. Surely something to consider.

cheers to all
L.

[kenjamin]

watch out for Iain Oughtred's designs – they are intoxicating in their beauty.
What? That's not strong enough? How about this... pound for pound the Caledonia Yawl is the most versatile, capable, beautiful and seaworthy of any boat ever designed. Iain Oughtred is a very helpful, patient and understanding designer. It is a little frustrating that he only responds to snail mail and phone calls but his penmanship is exceptional and someday I will get around to framing his great letter to me. If you need quick answers to building his boats, they can usually be found on the "Crazybird" website. Having said all that John Welsford's designs may be a little easier to build because the stringers in his larger designs define the plank shapes for you. At least that's what I've read.
Still, I'm not gonna be happy until somebody builds a Laughing Gull and tells me all about it. If I have to do it myself, my wife is gonna kill me and then I'll be dead.

JimD, I hear what you are saying. We still get hypothermia down here but it takes a heck of a lot longer. Again we are spoiled down here in Florida except lately it has been too darn hot to do any boatbuilding. And I think you give good advice. Welsford's Sherpa would be great to throw in the back of the truck for those quick late afternoon fishing trips. (I could keep the garage door closed and maybe my wife would not even notice I built another boat!:rolleyes:)

[JimD]

So I have a question. What is this groups view of the Stevenson project's Weekender and Vacationer? ....


Please take heed of the alarm bells sounding regarding Weekender's displacement/stability issues and don't build one. She has her champions, but generally is not highly regarded around here. The pros and cons were recently re-hashed here: http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=68272

It sounds like you are quite concerned about building complexity. If so there are plenty of good single or double chined designs around that don't require a lot of planking and are still very seaworthy. But it would be a big mistake to get the cart before the horse at it were and build the wrong boat just because it was a boat you felt comfortable building.

Check out Sam Devlin:

http://www.devlinboat.com/homebuiltnylen2.jpg

http://www.devlinboat.com/homebuiltmasters3.jpg


http://www.devlinboat.com/nancyschinadc2.jpg

Or George Buehler's Happy Camper http://www.georgebuehler.com/pogo.html :

http://www.georgebuehler.com/Happy%20Camper/HC%20on%20Trailer.jpg

Or any of several oldies but goodies from Glen-L or Hartley. And many more.

[Tom Hunter]

A few other things to think about

When you are sizing a boat you can look at length and beam but I suggest you look at wieght too. A heavier boat on the same length is likely to have more space (if well designed) and be more comfortable.

It is also likely to be slower. This can be partially fixed by having a lot of sail area, but it never completly makes up for the wieght.

In the end your looking for a compromise that is right for you. I am just suggesting some things to look at when making the compromise.

Another thing to think about is that boats, and especially traditional boats, tend to be purpose built to accomplish something specific, in a particular geographic area.

So Friendship Maine developed a lobster boat that looks a certain way. Eastport got a sloop (Eastport Pinky) for moving herring from fish wiers to the canneries with one man sailing. Chesapeake bay got oyster draggers.

Your area may have its own traditional boats, or you may want to look at places with a longer history but similar wind and sea conditions. Oughtred is worth looking at for a number of reasons, listed below, but also because he sails his boats in some pretty rough places himself.

Lots to think about, but worth spending the time, you will be much happier in the end.

[Steve Lansdowne]

The bigger the boat, the longer it may take to build, and the older the kids are getting while you're building it. Starting with small would get you on the water faster and help you decide if big is really within your level of skill, desire, budget, etc. Kids can learn sailing basics with small, too.

[Ray Frechette Jr]

Very capable and versatile craft. Easy to build, thorough plans, Large spacious cockpit, Fast (12 knt planing speed) Unstayed Cat Ketch rig with attendant benefits.

Ability to add spray dodger tent for sleeping for two.

huge amount of floatation air tanks for ease of self recovery in event of capsize.

Proven by completing the grueling 300 mile Everglades Challenge race in 25 knt + winds 2 years running. Broke previous course record by over 8 hrs and beat a G-Cat and a Hobie Cat in the process. Race starts with boat on sand beach at high water mark and boat needs to be brought down to water by crew of 1 or 2and whatever gear makes the whole trip.

http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/cs17.htm

Plenty of build support by designer, and very friendly builders forum.

[JimD]

I'll second the motion for B&B Core Sound 17 and add Karl Staumbaugh to the mix (keeping in mind the limitations of such small, light boats.) http://www.cmdboats.com/catbird16.htm?cart_id=e1b7b2f14a739a41d84d26074d88 9796 :

http://www.cmdboats.com/images/catbird16_photo.jpg

Edited to add: Attractive, simple, quick build but this sort of boat is not really much different from the GIS. They have their limits. Karl has some larger designs of similar simplicity worth taking a gander at:

[JimD]

And if you really want some strings to pull http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/smack/index.htm :

SMACK
by John Welsford
LOA 6.3 m - 20 ft 8 in
BEAM 2.1 m - 6 ft 10 in



A big dinghy with a gaff rig and space to camp aboard


Character yachts need not be impractical, this plywood characterisation of an English East Coast fishing smack by Stuart is a very practical camping cruiser capable of coastal passages and wonderful for short haul cruising on a budget. She has enough choices of sail combinations to perform well in a wide range of weather conditions and is light enough to row short distances if you don't want to fit an outboard motor.


Smack has a cuddy cabin for stowing camping gear, or as a space for a couple of airbeds. It is not so long ago that many of our now leading yachtsmen used to begin their cruising careers in boats that were not as spacious or as capable as this husky little boat. Superbly simple to build, very easy on the budget and with a lot of character this would be a wonderful exploration vehicle for those who have a large area of tidal or shallow water to play in.


http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/smack/smack.gif



Or maybe keep the hull but simplify the sail plan or else your sails and rigging will quadruple your costs.

[kenjamin]

I'll put a third in for the Core Sound. Simple and great rig especially for a newbie. It's combing adds stiffness and keeps the family drier and happier. Easier to fit a tent to that combing too. I love my Caledonia Yawl (don't ya know) but it was no picnic to build and it was my third boat – of course it didn't help that I built it in my 21'x21' garage. There wasn't much room left over after the forms, the work table, all my tools and everything I couldn't fit in the attic.

Varna, no problem. I'm enjoying the discussion.

[Thorne]

Not to be heretical here, but you *could* buy a wooden boat that suits your needs, then build a tender or learn a lot by doing restoration work on it.

The current edition (47) of Small Craft Advisor lists a 20' "Devlin Eider" for $7500, full keel, tanbark sails, 5hp outboard, all up on trailer -- might be worth a look at it in Bellinham WA.

Don't know anything about the design as its not on Devlin's site, but you'd be hard pressed to build anything over 17' new and buy sails, an outboard and trailer for that price...

[Pericles]

Plans are one thing, but support through the build process is another. Jacques Mertens and his crew are right at hand when you need them.
There are many designs for you to consider.

Vagabond Plus 20
http://www.bateau.com/prodimages/VG20_300.jpg

http://www.bateau.com/categories.php?cat=30

Have a look at the forums and this build site.

http://www.amateurboatbuilding.com/justright/index.htm

Pericles

[JimD]

A design like Vagabond is several times as much boat as the lightweight open skiffs being mentioned but you get an amazing amount of boat in under 20 feet. This is a serious cruiser that goes far beyond basic camping style amenities - not that there's anything wrong with that but as suggested earlier the kids could be grown up before you get a boat like this in the water:

http://www.amateurboatbuilding.com/justright/images/intport.JPG

http://www.amateurboatbuilding.com/justright/images/intctr.JPG

http://www.amateurboatbuilding.com/justright/images/Interior-008.jpg

[Steve Paskey]

Plans are one thing, but support through the build process is another. Jacques Mertens and his crew are right at hand when you need them.

Nothing against Jacques, but the support for John Welsford's plans is as good as it gets. There's a very active Yahoo! group, with lots of folks who've built (or are building) one of John's designs. And John himself spends a lot of time answering questions there.

[JimD]

Welsford Sweat Pea:

http://users.bigpond.net.au/banjos-backyard/images/my_updates/mp012.jpg

http://users.bigpond.net.au/banjos-backyard/images/Rogers%20Pics/rmcockpit.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/banjos-backyard/images/Rogers%20Pics/RogSP.jpg

[Ray Frechette Jr]

Not to be heretical here, but you *could* buy a wooden boat that suits your needs, then build a tender or learn a lot by doing restoration work on it.

The current edition (47) of Small Craft Advisor lists a 20' "Devlin Eider" for $7500, ...

And if you get that current issue of Small Craft Advisor you can take a Gander at a quite fetchin CoreSound 17 on the cover too....

http://www.smallcraftadvisor.com/current.htm

It is the most recent CoreSound out of my shop on her Sea Trials with new owner.

[lobo]

So much great feedback an so many options!

Varna, you have great taste but I am concerned at the number of hours it would take me to produce something from Oughtred (the Eu na Mara perhaps!!!). His boats are beautiful but research shows that unless I have a few under my belt I may be a bit ambitious. This perhaps is true for any boat but the tendency from what Google returned as well as the forums is on the high end of complexity.

I have been doing a lot of research on Welsford's Pathfinder. I can't shake this boat from my head and even had correspondence with Mr. Welsford himself regarding the project. He gave me a lot of confidence and it is a strong contender.

But, Ray, you put me onto the Coresound 17 (and 20!) and this has me intrigued. Ray, I will likely follow-up with you with a few questions, but after the pics I saw on your website of the Grasshopper, I must say this is a beautiful boat. Another strong contender.

Jim your advice is heeded. Hell if we all only tackled what we thought we could build then we would never test our limits and have reason to celebrate. Complexity is not necessarily the main factor, but I am just trying to use a filter known as realism! After the note from Mr. Welsford, I believe that many of his designs are attainable, and I am no longer worried about the long haul. I can always charter a boat around the corner if building takes longer than expected and thus the kids won't be waiting forever.

BTW, I can't find much info on the Smack. Any photos you can pass through, or owners that you know?

Tom thanks for the note about considering local flavour of boat design. I have since been to some public marinas but overwhelmed at the amount of FG and lack of wood. Seems wooden boats are a dying thing. More reason to build!


So, my new shortlist is

Day Sailors - Navigator/Pathfinder/Coresound
Cabin Cruisers - Sweet Pea/Chebacco/Pathfinder with Cabin.

Thanks to everyone for the great comments. Will let you know what I will move forward with.

On a final note, and perhaps I can search the forums, but what would most of you consider the stock tools to acquire. I have the basic stuff, but what would you consider a well stocked boat shed. The reason I ask is that I have a birthday coming up in about 10 days and it gives me a massive opportunity to stock up!

cheers
Lo

[boatbear]

1. A very comfortable moaning chair.

[Ray Frechette Jr]

In deciding between a small cabin cruiser with minimal interior accomodations or a Daysailor there is another viable option.

That would be a day sailor with a large spray dodger/Tent combo with raised floor boards. Go to the brochures page on my website and the camp cruiser pdf file you can download for pictures of the same. Pictures of a CoreSound 17 with a spray dodger tent and raised floor boards.

This accomodation gives you a large bed area under cover, allows the port floorboard to be down and use a porta potti in it's palce in relative privacy and also allows you to cook under cover soem as well.

The chief attribute of a spray dodger tent on a large open cockpit daysailor is you have convertability. If you want a large open cockpit, you have it. If you want enclosed cabin space to get out of weather you can have that as well.

If you have a dedicated cabin boat, you lose the ability to sprawl out or carry a lot of guests.

I also build to Welsford's designs and the Navigator or Pathfinder would serve you well also.

Of the Welsford or Byrnes designs, I would say that glued lap will take a bit more of a learning curve but in no way insurmountable. Of the two planses I find the B&B sets to have more detail. One of the nicest things about the B&B sets is they include a panel layout sheet that advises how you can get all the parts out of specified plywood.

I must say I did not have trouble getting the panels out of the ply on John Welsfords design, but it does cause a little more consternation while you are laying everything out before cutting.

[Tom Hunter]

Lobo,

Before you build, you should at least think about buying used. If you already have thought about it, ignore this post. :D

I bought this:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid212/p2b7672e9012524b4fb944f7e8bc76381/ed6b14d7.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p5801865495a0911165c80859e9b89486/e8e2e842.jpg

Sailed it down from Maine, spent 3 years fixing it up, did some sailing last year:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid215/p4ee9018432a1675104968034c5a5f4d9/eceb9b03.jpg

Then opened her up to do some more repairs:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pf46e74e78b93e4c917e323e8b8a83712/e8e3336d.jpg


Turned out I had pretty much a summer's worth,

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p48ea6745a7e6992cde0eaa9bceda4184/e86ae8ab.jpg

But it is coming back together now:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p44209d66c7a6beebcc35e7887175f3e2/e86ae9e0.jpg


http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pc27030445bcb3f1daed75c7e3a4988b8/e86ae844.jpg

And the hole in the coach roof is coming back together as well, this is the pre-epoxy shot:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pc0b76b2ff29519d10e6467b28f40ca56/e86ae7ec.jpg

You can learn a lot about boat building this way, and you can get in some sailing between projects. By next year all the really huge stuff will be done, and I will do smaller projects every year.

If you find the right boat this can be a good way to go. Also if you enjoy fixing boats then you can get a really good price. Just be very aware of what you are buying.

Good luck what ever option you choose.

[lobo]

Tom...I did think about buying/restoring but I was hoping that the incremental costs of building would be easier on the wallet. As well, there is that primal part of me that wants to discover fire, hunt down and slay the mammoth, carve out the family cave, and of course, build the boat. Bragging rights aside, it would be an amazing feeling to captain a ship that I built.

Boatbear, does that moaning chair come with a cooler?

Lobo.

[Ray Frechette Jr]

By the time all is said and done, a CoreSound 17 completely finsihed, rigged and trailer will set you back about 6-7 K in materials, sails traielr consumables etc.

You will invest somewhere around 400 build hrs in it so factor your time available per week and how much it is worth to you.

A Pathfinder would take a little less materials, but not much, and a bit more time probably. Though I have heard some builders taking over 1000 hrs to build a Navigator and I have a hard time fathoming that myself.

The CoreSound 17 Grasshopper, Featured on the current cover of Small Craft Advisor was out of the shop 2 months to the date after I brought the hull jig home.

It is important to note that I build them differently than plans dictate with a one off procedure and that does save considerable time for repeat builds. I have a permanent hull building jig that allows me to have the hull assembled, glassed exterior sanded and primed and the ceneterboard trunk glassed in place inwhales and seat stringers in 2 weeks.

[paladin]

or you might consider the 18 foot version of this....

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p2aae3116f8060ec435b81152c6ff2e78/e815b79e.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/paea69975a4e68a58a3cc6c9a40d1234a/e815b79f.jpg

8 foot beam, 18 feet long, has cruised from california to hawaii,

[barrington]

This is such a great thread for me. I'm in exactly the same position as you Lobo but started a little bit earlier. Here's what I've come up with after all the input from the knowledgeable folks on this forum. I'm going with a completely open boat, a dodger and tent are easy to set up and take down, a cuddy adds to the complexity of the build and takes away that 'openess' that sailing an open boat has and greatly reduces cockpit area. I bought the plans for Chebacco, which is undoubtedly a fine craft. My concerns where: a) it's a big boat for a first time build. b) the instructions are minimal and c) it's unballasted. The Welsford boats are beautiful but, for me, would take a long time to build. The same applies to the Caledonia yawl, another gorgeous boat. For all round buildability(?) stability and adaptability with not bad looks I've gone for the Highlander 18 with a cat yawl rig ala Chebacco. Another important consideration for me was beachability and trailerability. 'Abilities' abound. I think when all is said and done, choosing a boat is actually a lot more difficult than the build. Best of luck to you.

Chris

[JimD]

Lobo, I still hope you build a quick, easy dinghy before making a final decision. It would be a great rainy season project. Start in November and have it in the water in April. If you're still focused on Pathfinder then Pathfinder it should be because few considerations are more important than really liking the looks of your boat even if other designs are just as good. I like the cabin version of Pathfinder. The boat is long enough that you should be able to sleep two in the cabin and two in the cockpit au plen aire on the thwarts (a cockpit tent would be nice).

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/projects/groome/Pauls-PF-from-above.jpg

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/projects/thierry/100_0312.jpg

[JimD]

My two cents on tools: Keeping in mind that you are going to be dealing with a lot of plywood, epoxy, and fibreglass and not doing a lot of traditonal woodworking, and shop for tools accordingly:

1) A good belt sander. Nothing fairs plywood edges better, especially if it has epoxy and fiberglass on it

2) A good jig saw. Mine's a Makita and is plenty good enough quality but don't go cheap. The cheap ones shake and rattle too much and will chew up your wood.

3) A table saw. A cheap one will do for building a couple small boats. A good one is nice if you have heaps of money and know you will get plenty of use out of it in years to come but for example I have only a cheap portable Ryobi and it has serviced me just fine for several years of plywood boat building projects and home repairs.

4) Cordless drill.

5) Random orbital sander. Essential for smoooothing fiberglassed plywood. I have a DeWalt 5". Don't get one of those silly square palm sander things unless you have money left over.

6) Several thousand clamps of various sizes. Maybe not quite that many but a lot of them, anyway.

7) A power plane would be nice unless you like doing it the old fashioned way with hand tools and elbow grease. There will be various longitudinal stringers to be bevelled although I'm in the habit of bevelling with the belt sander.

[Ray Frechette Jr]

I haven't pulled my belt sander out of storage for years. Loud, dusty as all get out and you can do a world of hurt to your work real quick.

Rarely use a jigsaw either. For myself I have a small cordless skill saw that cuts the panels. Only allow the blade to pass the stock by just a wee bit, and you can cut out curves nicely. Cut outside the line by at least a mm. I then use hand planes to bring down to the line.

I would reccomend at least 3 planes, a Rabbet plane, a Low angle Block plane, and a jack plane.

Surform shapers are handy at times as well as are files.

A bevel guage and a high quality compass are musts, as well as various and sundry hand tules such as tape measures, ( get one in metric if building a Welsford design)

A dry wall t square is handy, a level, a power driver.

For fairing the boat (Which is a lot different than smoothing it) a longboard is a must.

Right angle random orbital sander is hugely beneficial for smoothing after the boat is faired. 5 inch quicksand palm sander is an exercise in building patience and perseverance.

A cordless angle grinder is handy as is a die grinder for removing blobs of oopsed epoxy, but not an absolute necessity.

A router with round over bits is very handy to have.

I have 4 bar clamps and maybe a dozen c clamps backed up by a 6 foot length of 4 inch PVC pipe cut into rings with slits in the outside edge to make cheap spring clamps. More clamps are handy, but I get by.

I wouldn't want to be without my table saw or band saw, but people do.

A large layout tabel for a worksurface is very handy. And a Fein detail; sander for getting in the corners...

[Lars Silen]

Having built a 32-feet Mystic as my first project I think that bite was on the bigger side http://www.kolumbus.fi/larsil/boat_building_eng.html . Please notice that my boat building was fairly anarchistic :) . I have been pleased by the end result even if I know I could improve on the work in almost every detail. If you are interested in sailing http://www.kolumbus.fi/larsil/sailing06.html I think an used boat that you fix up is the correct way to go. If you are interested in the experience of creating your own boat with your own hands then you should start building. Building a very simple tender seems too easy, do you really learn enough from a project like that? Personally if I'd do it again I would start with something simple like for example the Weekender. Actually I would like to make a one off "kit" of the Weekender and then see if it is possible to build the body without paint work and fitting out in one long weekend, any experiences?
Regarding the weekender stability one should remember, I think, that this actually is a slightly overgrown dinghy. Correctly sailed it should be fairly safe for sheltered waters.

I am interested in the building time of some weekender type boat kit because I think there could be a business upportunity for people living in for example the Finnish archipelago. One could market "experience" tourist trips involving building one's own small boat combined with fishing/hunting in the winter time + sauna etc. The boat could be fitted out and made ready for the next visit the next summer by local people. "Building" could mean just enough work so that the builder/tourist is able to proudly say "I built her" (meaning 30% of the total work :) ). Has this kind of building/tourism been tried somewhere. What is the minimum time for doing the basic assembly a simple Weekender type boat when some experienced tutor is available?

If this kind of vacation deal would be available would you be interested? Boat building experience without any need for tools, renting a shed and as a fairly short boat building "coarse".

Notice that the "Weekender" is used to illustrate the general size of the project only. I have bought the plans (which b.t.w. are very detailed and well made) but at present I don't have any plans to start building.

/Lasse

[kenjamin]

Howdy lobo,

Thanks for starting this thread. I think you have become the "everyman" of first time boat builders. Everyone is trying to figure out the ultimate best way for a "newbie" to proceed. As you (and we) are learning, there's no stock answer. I think one of the biggest factors has got to be budget – both time and money. Building a 8' dinghy is a great way to go if you are patient and can afford to build at least two boats – the larger second boat being the ultimate goal. If you are are not especially patient and want to get on the water in a boat that you've built yourself, then the Core Sound or something similar (maybe the Highlander) seem to be straightforward builds and could get you and your sons sailing sooner in the "family" sailboat. Just curious, lobo, how old are your boys? Could they help you at all with the build?

Lars Silen, is it my imagination or can hear a lot of forumites groaning at the sound of the Weekender being built as a business for the Finnish archipelago? The building of a local fishing skiff would tempt me much more as a boatbuilding vacation. As a compromise and something quickly built, maybe a Skerry would do or maybe a Laughing Gull. Maybe this should be another thread.

[esingleman]

One of Joel White's smaller dinghy's (Nutshell pram, Shellback, Pooduck)would be a nice first project. And the book "How to build the Shellback Dinghy" is a aid to building any of those boats. Then after she's finished her first life as your main boat, she could become the tender for your next boat.

Because the definition of a boat builder is a person who while building one boat is dreaming about his next!!!

Good luck

[Ray Frechette Jr]

FWIW the first boat I built was a Stevenson's Weekender.

The strongest suit of a Weekender is the plan set that holds your hand and takes you from step to step assuming no knowledge of boat building or the methods and practices of boatbuilders.

It also makes excellent economy of the plywood stock the plans call for and is a very quick and easy boat to set up each time one wants to sail. If you garage store the boat, with the sails bent on, it is a quick measyure to hoist the mast on the tabernacle and simply attach and tension the forestay with all sails and sheets bent on.

The downsides I would perceive is that it sacrifices performance and stability to aesthetics. A clipper bow is indeed attractive , however on a 12 foot waterline it is a treacherous thing to try and walk on the foredeck. Many have chastised me and said it is just abig dinghy and needs to be treated as such, however I can state I have been on 15 foot boats that were much more comfortable under foot thatthe 16 foot LOD Weekender.

Figure on a Weekender taking about 3-400 hr hrs to build and finish as well.

And given that a 10 foot sailing rowboat can consume as many as 150 hrs to build a bit more than double that and you cna have a 17 foot daysaiulor to suit your needs better.

Of course if you want the boat and doubt abilities or time commitments commissioning one is always an option as well.

[Daniel Noyes]

Tom...I did think about buying/restoring but I was hoping that the incremental costs of building would be easier on the wallet. As well, there is that primal part of me that wants to discover fire, hunt down and slay the mammoth, carve out the family cave, and of course, build the boat. Bragging rights aside, it would be an amazing feeling to captain a ship that I built.

Boatbear, does that moaning chair come with a cooler?

Lobo.


Hi Lobo
You have mentioned the "experience" of building a boat several times. keep in mind the project will likely take a year of your spare time. Most of the boats mentioned so far make extensive use of plywood and that toxic epoxy goop. If you would like to avoid spending your weekends wearing a respirator, elbow deep in petro-chemicals then take a look at the traditionally built, plank on frame Dorys in John Gardners "Dory Book" FREE plans and offsets and building instructions (available at your local library) for many very seaworthy craft including the family sized St. Piere dory and the fast and exciting beachcruiser/racer the 21' Alpha dory, wich will happilly sail right under the lee of most any of the epoxy built boats mentioned above (I wont' name names)
Go ahead breathe deep and enjoy the scents of cedar shavings and linseed oil, you'll be happy to enter your work shop each evening and glad you built a traditional dory!
Oh I forgot to mention a dory is a great beginners wood working project.

Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[kenjamin]

Daniel, you weren't supposed to mention my favorite fantasy build – the Alpha-Beachcomber. I can't help but wonder how much faster it would be with thin ply, modern epoxy lap planks and a jib headed sloop rig. For sure it's a fun racer but maybe not so much a family cruiser. I enjoyed seeing your Ipswich Bay 18 sailing dory at Mystic WoodenBoat show this year. It looks like a sweet ride – maybe a better choice for the family, eh?

[JimD]

Just occurred to me that no one has mentioned catboat. A great family boat. Big cockpit to put people in, shallow draught, very stable, and plenty of designs in the desired size range.

[JimD]

This John D Little lapstrake beauty belongs to a forum member. They don't get much prettier:

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/flanderscat/images/p1010008.jpg

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/flanderscat/images/p1010007.jpg

[Ray Frechette Jr]

Hi Lobo
You have mentioned the "experience" of building a boat several times. keep in mind the project will likely take a year of your spare time. Most of the boats mentioned so far make extensive use of plywood and that toxic epoxy goop. If you would like to avoid spending your weekends wearing a respirator, elbow deep in petro-chemicals then take a look at the traditionally built, plank on frame Dorys in John Gardners "Dory Book" FREE plans and offsets and building instructions (available at your local library) for many very seaworthy craft including the family sized St. Piere dory and the fast and exciting beachcruiser/racer the 21' Alpha dory, wich will happilly sail right under the lee of most any of the epoxy built boats mentioned above (I wont' name names)
Go ahead breathe deep and enjoy the scents of cedar shavings and linseed oil, you'll be happy to enter your work shop each evening and glad you built a traditional dory!

Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

While I have deep admiration and respect for traditional plank on frame and traditional lapstrake boats, let's not underestimate the health hazards of plain old Wood dust. And Cedar oils can cause significant allergies individuals as well. And let's not forget the Red Lead, and many of the traditional finishing oils can produce skin irritations as well. I have a friend who builds traditional lapstrake commercially and he has to avoid a few different traditional finishes.

Epoxy is simply another material that needs to be treated with respect and precautions.

[lobo]

I plan on heading to Port Townsend on Sunday morning - EARLY. It is the last day and thus I am concerned that many boats will be heading out by noon. Any advice for a PT first-timer? Will I get a chance to meet any of you there?

Look forward to seeing many amazing boats and people.

cheers
Lobo

[James McMullen]

I'll be there. Look for Rowan and Dragonfly. Bring your own PFD if you've got one--that will make it very easy to beg a ride from anyone.

Last year at PT:
http://inlinethumb45.webshots.com/12396/2750499290088484686S425x425Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2750499290088484686TrcQgk)

and a bunch more pictures from last year here:
http://www.mavc2002.com/Port_Townsend_2006.htm

[epoxyboy]

I cannot stop admiring Welsford’s Pathfinder. I am blown away by the beauty of this craft and its suitability for this area. But the complexity scares me silly. [/LIST] As for my needs, I have 4 kids. I need a bigger boat if they all want to sail/camp, but realistically, it will be me and 2 or 3 boys.
Thanks for all the contributions to this thread!

lobo
:)

Hey good choice though I am biased as I'm building one!
Prior to the Pathfinder, my only boatbuilding experience was two stitch and glue kayaks. Building something small just to get a feel for the materials and tools is definitely a good idea.
Re the complexity - if a Navigator doesn't put you off, consider that a Pathfinder is pretty much just a bigger Nav, from a construction point of view. There is nothing on a boat this size that you cant physically manage on your own though, including rolling it you work smart - it is just a long sequence of small, simple (occasionally boring and frustrating) jobs.
But dont under estimate the time required, unless you want to burn the candle at both ends and ignore your kids for a year. The first Pathfinder went together in a year, mine (with a cabin, which is a bit more work) should be in the water this Xmas after three years of occasional evenings and maybe eight hours per weekend. If you have an unheated shop like I do you will lose evenings for 5? months of the year, unless you like freezing your a** off.


Pete

[lobo]

Pete.

Many thanks for the feedback!

My calculations put your total effort at about 1000 hours (30 weeks per year). Would you say that this is accurate? I would love to see some pics of your project, especially the cabin space.

Good luck with the next few months of building.

cheers
Lo

[epoxyboy]

Lo,
I have replied to this back channel, and will send you some pix that way - posting pix here is just too much of a drama.
As for the 1000 hours, maybe. My wife bought me a diary way back when I started and I meticulously diarised the first days time, effort and expenditure. Yep.
There would be some weeks in summer when the boat got as much as 30 hours, and some months in winter when it probably didn't get even that, so it is difficult to tell. I think it depends a lot on how fussy about finish you are, how much time you spend pondering changes to plans, and how much time you spend getting sidetracked on stuff like rebuilding trailers (my advice, dont, just spend the money!)

Pete

[Paul H]

Lobo,

After just completing my first boat this year, and having built it as a family cruiser fishing boat, I have a few thoughts on the subject. First try and figure out exactly what boating trips you want to make, and in which water. For me, I want to ply Prince William Sound in Alaska for fishing and exploring, and needed a boat that could safely and comfortably handle rough water and was fast enough to run 100+ miles in a day and allow time to fish, and would be easily trailored upwards of 250 miles from home on sometimes rough roads.

That narrowed the field down to planing boats, and I wanted one that would cruise at 20-22 knots. Through a variety of influences I ended up building a Tolman widebody, and I couldn't be happier with the results. I doubt you'll find a similar design that can be built more quickly.

Be honest with the time you have available to work on the boat. I started my boat in Nov. 2003, and each year the kids would get more homework during the school year, and hence I'd have less free time each year. I also didn't want to spend all summer long working on the boat, so most summers I did very little work on the boat, painting was the primary task as I needed the ventilation.

Be honest with your building space. With epoxy you have to have a heated location to build. We have snow on the ground 1/2 the year, so an outside tent was simply not an option, I would have spent more keeping it warm than building the boat. The ideal workspace would allow a good 3-4' all the way around the boat, and additional space to layout parts. I built in a 2 car garage, my boat was 3" shorter than the garage, one side of the boat was pushed up against the side of the garage, the other side was kept clear during the coldest months so my wife could park her car. This was far from the ideal building space, and no doubt added considerable time to my build, and made for many times where a 1/2 hour job was delayed a week as I just didn't have the energy the pull out the car, setup the tools, do the job, cleanup, and re-park the car.

There are countless designs I would love to build, and say a 26-30' sailboat with a small i/b diesel that just sips the fuel. But, I didn't have the space for such a boat, and couldn't live with such a slow boat.

To some the building experience is more important, to others the use is more important. I built my boat to use often and hard, and am quite happy with my choice. Even if the Tolman skiff doesn't trip you trigger, I highly recomend Renn's book as a good treatise on the tools and techniques used to build a stich and glue epoxy/ply boat. He wrote his book after building 100+ boats commercially, and few designs can lay claim to being documented after so many builds and letting you know exactly how to build the boat.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/groupee_files/photo_albums/4/8/1/481101382/986108796_8EA4D43EFAB7F9901E597B1C20B87C11.JPG

[Popeye]

thanks guys for putting an excellent thread together !

cheers

[Wiley Baggins]

I won't echo but will acknowledge the sound advice given regarding some of your initial choices being too small for your waters and your ambitions. The exception being Bolger's Chebacco. The Welsford Highlander at 18' might get you there but would require good seamanship in bad conditions. I should say better seamanship than a larger boat might require of the skipper - the need for good seamanship, particularly in bad conditions, is a universal truth.

In my second blasphemy of the day, I'll moot the idea of buying a small fiberglass daysailer cruiser for cheap while you sort out what you really need/want and build her a tender to develop and practice your skills. Then, build the Chebacco, or her like. You can sell the 'glass boat to finance sails, etc. when the time comes.

Things that strike me as important for your application are sprawling room - large cockpit; a sizeable cuddy for dry storage, to get out of the weather, stow a pota-potti, and for berthing. A divided rig for easy reefing and something to keep all hands busy is also a plus.

[Daniel Noyes]

Hi Lobo
You have mentioned the "experience" of building a boat several times. keep in mind the project will likely take a year of your spare time. Most of the boats mentioned so far make extensive use of plywood and that toxic epoxy goop. If you would like to avoid spending your weekends wearing a respirator, elbow deep in petro-chemicals then take a look at the traditionally built, plank on frame Dorys in John Gardners "Dory Book" FREE plans and offsets and building instructions (available at your local library) for many very seaworthy craft including the family sized St. Piere dory and the fast and exciting beachcruiser/racer the 21' Alpha dory, wich will happilly sail right under the lee of most any of the epoxy built boats mentioned above (I wont' name names)
Go ahead breathe deep and enjoy the scents of cedar shavings and linseed oil, you'll be happy to enter your work shop each evening and glad you built a traditional dory!
Oh I forgot to mention a dory is a great beginners wood working project.

Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

Hmmm couldn't have said it better my self... duhh (:
I have built both traditional and epoxy construction. For the quality of the experience there is absoloutely NO comparison... sure the result is satisfying in either case (especially with the epoxy Finally! no more sanding, painting, squigying, squirting, gloopping, etc. this toxic nastyness!!!) at one job we called epoxying "fun with gooop" the "fun" part was cutting sarcasm, the "gooop" part was the unfortunate truth.
Dan

[BonacBelle]

Thought you might want to know Paul Gartside just added about five new designs to his catalogue ... they can be seen on Paul's website now...

(Tho I think he's going to add little tags/flags that say "new" or something, next to the new ones, in the next day or two ... so they're easier to spot.... At the moment, i don't think it's obvious what's been added, unless you have the whole catalogue, um, memorized or something...)

He's going to be posting groups of new designs -- half a dozen now, half a dozen again, every month or so -- over the next few months.....

BonacBelle