question for gaff sailors

[Bernadette]

as part of my preparation to take DECATUR offshore, i am considering cutting down the mainsail to make it easier to handle and safer for crew. this will involve shortening the length of the boom by about 6 foot to bring the end of the boom in line with the stern cap rail. the existing boom is 24 foot long. and the main is currently 500 sq feet. ive been to the sailmaker with my problem and he has given me some things to consider before i go ahead. i just wanted to know what other gaff sailors' thoughts might be on my problem and planned solution...?
bernadette

[Ian McColgin]

Before you lop off some nice sail area, consider handling options.

If you've the reefing clew lines laid out rightly, you also have a way of securing that outboard sail area when reefing or striking the sail.

I keep a tag line that will pull the sail cover out.

The big long boom is a very nice bit of insurance against the noxious flying chinese gybe where the boom goes over, the gaff stays put, and the sail rips. The long boom reduces this both by it's shere length mitigating it gybing much earlier than the gaff, and it's weight and leverage help keep excess twist out.

There's other tricks. Point is, if she sails nicely, a long boom is not really that big a deal.

G'luck

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I have only limited experience with gaffs, but I have found them exceedingly easy to reef, and the use of preventers helps out on gybes... All in all I think a gaff rig makes up for it's flying string factory by the ease of handling the rig under sail.

[Bernadette]

ian
thanks for your comments. its not so much a problem of the reefing points and how they are used to control the sail, but more a problem of sheer size of the main. its true the lazy jacks control the sail well when coming down and the full size main is great for light airs. i guess i just havnt had enough heavy weatherr experience to feel confidant and safe working aft to reef the main. she sails very well with all her sails up but she is a bit tender to my liking. my sailmaker advised against sailing with a reefed main for any length of time as the reefed section of sail will stay relatively unused and new while the working area of the sail will stretch according to the amount of use it gets. over what period of time, i dont know. as to the sail cover...yes a little attachment to haul the sail cover out to the boom end is the way to go...otherwise i have to climb up onto the boom and walk out to the end...quite tricky at times but i havnt fallen in the water yet!!!
bernadette

[Bernadette]

me again..i was just thinking that even given a proposed 10 day crossing for example...even with a reefed main, would this be detrimental to the shape/stretch of the sail over that period of time? any thoughts?
peter, "flying string factory"...i absolutely dont know what youre talking about...?!!! i know that even after 4 years aboard PEQUOT our gaff cutter, david and i would sometimes slip up and haul on the wrong line..!!! it was always cause for amusement!!!

[capnharv]

I understand your reluctance to sail offshore with that much main. But I think you could have problems with boat balance by reducing your main size. Howard Chapelle laments the loss of sailing quality by cutting down the boom length on a gaff rig.

As Ian said, there are other options. One might be to make up the reduced main area with a ringtail-kind of a stuns'l for the main. Look at the Pride of Balitmore-she sometimes carries one. That would help you make up the sail area and make the main more manageable. You also wouldn't have to cut down on your boom length.

One of the beauties of gaff rigs is that the center of effort doesn't shift much when you reef (relative to a marconi).

Anyway, a few thoughts. I'm sure there are more knowledgable folks on the Forum that will chime in.

Thanks,

Harvey

[George Ray]

What about the balance of the rig with such radical surgery on the sail plan?

We had to add eight foot back on the boom and get a new main when we bought our gaff schooner. The previous owner thought it took three men and a boy to handle it. We are shooting for one man or a strong clever boy. I have it on the list have a trysail that is setup to easily use.
We are overhauling the rig and getting all the important things like reefing lines etc to work easily and conveniently, preferably by one person.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid223/p975b5bb686cf7cd61d8742f3d2e1001b/eb1503c8.jpg

[Jase]

I'm pretty sure JohnB cruises with his first reef in...?? or at least everytime i see him cruising the reef is in.

[paladin]

cruising Bangkok-Singapore there seems to be a continuous 30 knot breeze in the Gulf of Siam....pretty standard sailing with the first reef in the main and the genoa furled sailing on reduced main and splinter jib....and still doing hull speed plus...

[Cullen T.M. McGough]

Hiya Bern,

I only sailed my gaffer for the first time this past weekend, but my boat has a feature you might consider:

The main boom is roller-furled. Which is to say, the topping lift attaches to a freely rotating collar, and the goose neck has a socket where a crank handle can be fitted. Reefing is just a matter of cranking the sail around the boom while lowering the peak and throat.

It's an old design, from an old boat, but I'll send ya some pictures if your interested. It allows for quick, tight furling and any amount of mainsail.

-C

[Hwyl]

Ignore your sailmaker and sail with a first reef in. You'll shake it out often enough that it will get used.

How does your boat balance without the main, I've seen schooners (amazingly) that sail O.K. without the main, otherwise, I'd seriously consider a trysail.

[Ian McColgin]

All my boats have lots of reef time on them. A well made sail will not be harmed.

Many marconi sails can be reefed and the reef points, if used at all, just contain the bunt a bit. I'd not bother tieing Granuaile's points unless we were going to be sailing from more than a few hours. Gaff sails often have a bit more shape than marconi and don't set up as hard along the reefed foot. If you sail without the reef points tied in, even with your best shot at reefed foot tension, you'll likely see the bunt climbing out a bit, putting really aweful bag in the sail. But it's also easy to tie in the points too tightly and put a lot of strain on them. So be sure to get a sail maker of expert out with you on some test runs to determine how tightly to tie the reef points.

After that you can make your pendants. My sails have had either two or three reef lines so it was easy to make each row of pendants feel differently. I usually use three strand for the first and third reef, but the first reef has a Matthew Walker in each end while the third is whipped. The second reef is braid. Now you can feel the difference, handy on a stark and dormy night.

There are various ways to ensure you tie consistently. One is to make each pendent just long enough to tie a reef knot, which will then always be right under the sail's foot (not around the boom).

I like longer pendants as they are easier to reach. Two methods for marking the tie point I've used are:

Whipping each side at the place the reef knot starts; or

Putting a cuntsplice at the right spot on each side and then tying in with a becket bend.

The first reef and perhaps the second will be out past the counter but you don't need pendents for that little bit anyway.

Use a gallows so you can get the sail securely to leeward but still aboard, allowing you to work from the weather side. Even with the sail a ways down, the gaff more horizontal than final set, and the lifts and jacks tightish to contain the bunt, the gaff will sag off enough that while hove-to you don't have to get the sail all the way down even though you'll be hove-to at an angle further off the wind than the position of the main boom might indicate. The lifts should contain the gaff without need of guys to hold it while you reef.

Speaking of which, I like quarter lifts that come to where the gaff tip lands, but I have a really long gaff. How you arrange the lifts and lazy jacks very much depends on the boat.

But if not, easy enough to heave-to under fore along or maybe fore and backed forestaysail - jib struck. A schooner should also heave-to easily on main and backed jib, maybe backed forestaysail. I never met a happy schooner who did not know how to heave-to easily. It's a schooner virtue.

G'luck

[Bernadette]

thanks for all the comments and advice everyone. i really do appreciate any input. things that are said here make me think so my decision at times changes often. a lot of what is said is already knowledge to me but i want input simply because i want to know if im thinking right! i wish i was in another country where gaffers were more the norm than the exception and men (and women!) knew how to sail a boat!!!
bernadette

[Jase]

come across the ditch :D we appreciate a good gaffer here :D

[Bernadette]

well actually, new zealand is my intended first port of call!!!

[John B]

Glad to hear that, roughly when are you working towards?
I've spent an hour or two looking at the sailplan and I have some misgivings about cutting back the rig from an aesthetic point of view. I don't actually think it'll make a giant difference to the balance if you do it ,and 6ft x about 40 looks like about 80 or 90 ft to me. As the others have said, the first reef will do that too.
I also have misgivings about keeping the shape of your main if you chop the leech off it ,but Todd would be better suited to comment there. I just know that a lot of effort in making a gaff sail goes into that last few feet and leech area and makes the diffence between a good one and a lemon, so I raise it as a point to consider.

Its a difficult call, on the one hand you have to be able to handle it in notoriously dangerous latitudes, on the other, you only have to read Pardey or Perryman to 'hear' the comment '80 % of your cruising will be in 10 knots of wind.'

So if it were me, considering the aesthetic aspect ,I would possibly accept cutting back about half .. say 3 maybe 4 ft ( nearly to the outboard boom bail in the Carrick book)and lose about 60 ft perhaps, ( ie about 2 or 3 ft outboard)because that still looks right to me.Provided of course that the sailmaker was confident about achieving a good shape. And I would run a reef early policy . Ie if there's a hint of 20 or if its a run.

Or I'd do what Hwyl says and just reef it and have a trysail bent on ready to go.

Tall ships in the bay of Islands is usually early jan.. about the 4th or (7th last year) , Mahurangi regatta is anniversary weekend very late jan and our Classic regatta is 3 days around the middle of feb. They're all great fun and if you can work them in you should.:) It'd be fun to catch up. Arcturus would love to see a smaller big sister too I'm sure.

[Bernadette]

john, thanks for your comments.

i guess im running scared of heavy weather thats all. and DECATUR is obviously so easy to handle even with the first reef in. i already have a trysail too.

i suppose my comments thus far really show how little heavy weather sailing ive done in her. ive been in some rough weather on the east coast here but it was at a time when i had to run back to port under bare poles motoring over 11 hours in way of a possible cyclone with a beat up skipper (me) so i didnt sail.

ive a huge way to go before i set off. my schooling to finish, money to save and the boat to get ready. im in the throes of so much of late with all things and well, i need time on my side.

my plans were for a cruise up the coast and return again next year to nut out final problems then offshore from brisbane. so maybe, just maybe, end of next year.

its also very hard to do all this alone without a partner although i have help from different quarters. the more comments on here though, the more i think i ought to just reef her right down. it seems the logical solution and well, i guess thats why there are reef points! i need suggestions to keep me thinking about what im doing and trying to achieve!
i would love to give you blokes a real drag race when i get there...be prepared...DECATUR is fast!!!!!!

oh by the way, the crossing to nz is the planned start for a pacific cruise.
bern.

[Thad]

I don't remember which Malabar DECATUR is, but thinking about this I just reread the Alden book pages 32-37, discussing the rig and sailing Malabars 1, 2, and 3. Also, SEA HARMONY has a much different hull and rig, but she is a cruising gaffer, and, as it says in the book about the MALABAR II Atlantic cruise, it is easy to "reef" by "lowering one or two sails in heavy weather and the boat would stay well balanced". The balance part is important in considering which sails to lower.

[Tom Hunter]

Bernadette,

The boom on my sloop is 29' long, the main is a bit larger than yours at 548 sqr feet.

When I bought her the rigging was old and the boat had been neglected some. The halyards and sheets had swollen, and this added a huge amount of friction.

Not knowing any better at the time I thought the rig was just too damn heavy for one man to handle. But as I learned more about the type it became obvious to me that the type (Eastport Pinky Sloop) had been designed to be sailed by one man.

I replaced the running rigging and the problem went away. I can raise and lower the main without any trouble, the mainsheet is easy to use, and I am very happy. (or I will be when I finish putting the deck back on, but that is another story.)

There is a general impression that Decataur will not sail as well cut down, which I am inclinded to agree with. I doubt the boat is unsafe as designed, so I don't think you will get safer by changing the rig. You will lose some performance, which is almost a sin on a boat like yours.

Based on my experience I think it is worth making sure your rigging is in good shape and performs well. I replaced my 3 strand halyards with more modern stuff and that made a lot of difference for me. Sure it does not look as salty but it makes sailing a lot easier and safer because the halyards don't jam in the blocks any more.

I am not expert on sails and sailmaking, but I would be dissapointed in a sail that lost its shape if it was reefed. I am under the impression that your supposed to use the reefs (I do) so why are they made in a way that will wreck the sail?

On a side note, in the circa 1900 sailing books I have read the authors suggest that 600 sqr feet is the maximum one man can handle. By the 40s they say 500 sqr feet, and more recently I have seen writers opine that 400 sqr feet or even 350 sqr feet is the most that one man can work with alone.

To me, this means that men are not getting enough exercise. :D

I do train a bit in the spring to get my strength up for the sailing season. You might suggest the same for everyone coming with you. But I don't think the boat will get a lot safer if you shrink the main. Better to focus on the gear, and on putting the reef in before it gets difficult.

[Todd Bradshaw]

The only (and I mean O-N-L-Y) way to cut down that leech without ruining the sail is to cut parallel to the leech reference line (imaginary straight line from peak to clew) and then hollow the leech about 1" for every 6' of leech length. If it's a vertical cut (which I think I remember it being) that means taking off full panels all the way up and down the leech - which would mean also shortening the head as well. If it's cross-cut, it means cutting off a similar portion of ALL the panels at their aft ends and then hollowing, still cutting parallel to the original leech. If, on the other hand, you just came in five or six feet along the boom and cut up to the existing peak at the aft end of the gaff, you would wind-up with the leech cut on a bias, which is about the worst possible thing you can do on a sail. You would be lucky to get 25 miles before the leech started flapping like crazy and there will be nothing you can do to fix it (not even re-cutting it frequently).

The leech is the least supported edge of the sail (no spar) and is often under the most stress. The only thing holding it's shape is careful alignment of the yarns so that they are square to, and can stand up to, the stress. The modern radial sail, for example, was designed specifically to address this issue and many of the fabrics used to build them aren't even woven. Load-bearing warp yarns are dead straight so that even the slight slack created by yarns going over and under each other is eliminated. That's how important fabric alignment is and though not usually taken to such extremes on most cruising boats, it's not something you want to mess with. Change or lose this alignment and you might as well just toss the sail in the dumpster.

Reef the sail - or sell it and have a smaller one made and designed to fit the new profile properly. Sure, if you have it reefed most of the time, the used portion may age a bit faster - but it's a far better option than a bad re-shaping job with off-axis threadlines. ...and stay the hell away from anybody who would re-cut that leech on a bias without first getting down on their knees and begging you not to make them do it.

[sv Lorelei]

I mentioned this in another thread, but I ran across a fellow this summer who singlehands an Alden schooner similar in size and rig to Decatur, and has done so for years up and down the US East Coast, as well as captaining a few as charters prior to that. I asked him about reefing the main by himself and his answer was that if he hadn't reefed before raising the sail he'd usually just drop the main entirely once he felt it was getting a bit too brisk. He said one of the things he liked so much about the schooner rig was that it had enough sails so that there were always lots of options. He and the boat had settled into a nice groove with each other, and he said he kinda didn't like having crew aboard that much anymore as you never know what they're going to try and do. Just another potential perspective.

[Don Z.]

Didn't Mr. Alden singlehand this design for a year, then sell it and build another Malabar, which he also singlehanded, and so on?

[George.]

On Dalia we have never reefed the main at sea. We have gone out with it reefed when rough going was forecast, and later shaken the reef.

We have practice reefed, of course, and found that even in quite strong winds it is doable short-handed, but quite time-consuming to do safely and get right, with the sail setting well and everything shipshape. So if it starts to blow hard at sea - too hard for the full main - our SOP is to drop it and sail under foresail and jib, or foresail and staysail. It has never come to it, but ultimately we would go with just a reefed foresail. And we are finally getting a trysail to put in place of the main.

The reasoning is that if it is blowing 30 knots plus at sea, and you are short-handed (as usual :) ), reefing the main on a schooner is rarely worth it. If you are cruising, the extra speed you'll get doesn't compensate the time and energy spent reefing, not to mention having that main boom still swaying over the cockpit, possibly jibing, as opposed to securely stowed on its gallows.

Of course, if conditions hold steady and we get confident and feel we could handle more sail, we can always reef the main and then re-hoist it. I think it was Tom Cunliffe that wrote that it always seems easier to add more sail than to reduce it.

So in summary: don't cut the sail, in my opinion. Either pre-reef it or drop it as the case may be. If after some passages that way you decide to have it recut, then at least you'll be sure.

[John B]

I'm glad Todd confirmed what I had thought about the recut because that was nagging at me a bit.

So really its reef and management and planning.
Like George, I'd prefer not to reef on the go in Waione. What I do there is reef before going and even tie two in on the basis of settling in and shaking one out if needed. Main is 600 and first cruising reef makes 500.

You have one other option to consider and that is to make a new sail which is between a trysail and the full rig (in size )to be be your ocean crossing sail . Carry the two and bend on the one you want for the area and prevailing conditions.Leave your spars as they are.
Good for the Tasman and good for the 7 or 10 days up to the islands from NZ.

Now here's an idea. What if that sail was a duplicate of your foresail.... eh ... see what I mean.
It gets you
*small main.spare main.
*spare foresail
*redundancy.

[Bernadette]

thanks again to all who have posted since yesterday. im glad i have your comments on hand to 'talk' sense into me!!! i can see that while i havnt been out sailing so much that ive forgotten some of the basics and im glad to be pointed back into the right direction again. my main is about 500 sq feet. i myself dont have any trouble hoisting it but until im really fit again it does leave me a bit breathless! i would be happy i think to sail across the tasman with reduced sail knowing that if i encounter a blow, then i wont be overcanvassed. i am definetly taking crew but i am getting ahead of myself just here.
i really appreciate your comments...i have picked up some really good ideas etc ...so again, thanks.
bernadette

[py]

I think I'd do 2 things, well 3 actually.

First, you need to be able to tie in, and shake out, a reef without climbing out to the end of the boom. That's just a bit of thinking about how you lead your lines from the cringles on the leach. I don't know how yours are set up, but on dad's boat (which is a much smaller gaff rig boat at 23') they are just lines which we tie at the end of the boom while hanging out the back of the boat, holding on tight with our toes. If they can go thru blocks on the boom, perhaps one pulling aft and one pulling down, and make them fast a little inboard, that should help. I don't know whether friction might kill the idea, but perhaps your aftmost 2 or 3 reef points could actually be a single length of line, laced round and round under the sail, so again you can just pull it in and make it fast inboard.

Second, and a few others have already made this point, you can probably just drop the main entirely when the wind gets up. How does she sail without the main? Try it in a good breeze of course. I used to have a 52' steel ketch. Rarely used the mizzen because it just didn't add much, and when the wind got over 20 knots or so we just lowered the main, and she sailed fine under just the genoa, upwind, downwind , any wind.

Third, a fixed boom gallows is a great thing for a bit of security while reefing-if you can do it without messing too much with the aesthetics of the boat. You know the ones, fixed (bronze?) uprights either side, and a curved cross beam with 3 half circle cutouts that the boom can sit in.

Fourth, I think I gotta find a way to get up there and get out for a sail with you!

Phil

[rbgarr]

See the rig on this schooner and e-mail Herb and Doris Smith with questions: http://tinyurl.com/2nx2a9

Their experience circumnavigating multiple times aboard wood, home-built schooners would be useful for you. Have you read any of their books (also available through the link)?

Good luck!

P.S. Ignore Kuralt's commentary on sailing aboard the Smith's EASTWIND. Lobster pots aren't set 'tidily aligned like rows of corn for easy harvest' and there's no outhouse on Ram Island. It's a fuel and paint shed. :D

[George Ray]

Loose footed(boomless) passage making main as suggested by John B has precedent and example in the Tancook whaler foresail. With your boom lashed down in the gallows it provides a very secure handhold when moving about on deck especially when moving on the windward side of it. The loose footed main need only be attached to the gaff and mast and would sheet like a trysail to the stern quarters. Not sure I would like the club on the clew as shown on the tancook sailplan, however much it would help the sail set, as it seems too dangerous when flogging.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pc9e78a3fc07b208cc56588e7758a031b/ea742233.jpg
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Example of a loosefooted(boomless):
The tancook 'fouryears' built by David Judd in AU to Chapelle's 'American Small Sailing Craft' plans and now in Thailand (I think). He said once he loves the loose foot..... ?
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid154/p278f29ef7168ea24dfb94b241715f9a4/f58087b1.jpg
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Regarding the rigging of a second Main:
I noticed that you use lacing lines on the luffs so there is no stack of hoops to get in the way when the primary main is secured and second sail is being attached to the mast above it. The gaff change over is not a huge issue. I am using robands and beads as lacing never seemed to work smoothly for me. I am wondering about robands with a loop and toggle for quick attachment (?could flog loose?) of luff of second sail.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid174/p84a2983af7f714c1a989fd9791b67ca0/f3910fe6.jpg
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Best Wishes

[Figmental]

Hi Bernadette,
I wanted to make sure you had a chance to consider the ideas about gaff vangs that Henry Howard wrote in 1946 after a lifelong career using them offshore. It takes a time to read, but Henry is sharing his experience and left it for us to learn from in his book, "The Yacht Alice, Twenty Years After" . I use one on the main of my 52' ketch and by being centrally sheeted to the mizzen mast it is a self tending preventer to protect the gaff from being wrenched off against the shrouds or spreaders during a hard gybe.
It appears to me that when heeled in a blow the gaff needs to be sheeted further to windward than the boom vang could ever pull it, therefore a gaff vang is a necessary piece of gear to get the most out of all possibilities. Thad just won first in his Traditional Rigged Class at the Glouster Schooner Races a couple of weeks ago. He was the only one using a gaff vang.

Try it, you'll like it!

David

http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=60971&highlight=gaff+vangs