sneak boats

[djswan]

My pops wants to blast some ducks. I stopped him yesterday from buying a boat. Dad give me some time. I'll see if I can get some info.

Any duck hunters out there?

[Ian McColgin]

There's quite a range of sneak-box designs. Is he willing to sail and row or must you make it motor-friendly?

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Blasting ducks on big water like the Great Lakes requires more boat than doing the same on a Louisianna bayeau.
Are you looking for an old fashioned, generic design or one of the new, special pupose boats?
Here's a couple of recent designs in S&G
http://www.bateau.com/products.php?cat=26

[Thorne]

Come on, djswan, you've been around this forum long enough to know the drill....we need some specs for the boat size, number of passengers, power requirements, etc.

Then we will be able to give our pearls of advice!

;0 )

[djswan]

Sorry Thorne, your right. He's got to get to the other sides of Swan Lake. Hmmmm, could get choppy but not to bad. It's plywood, got no time for anything else. Four folks, dog and decoys. We can afford a 25 hp motor. And use it as the blind.

[Thad Van Gilder]

I've planked up a couple of sneak boxes... Is that what you mean?

-Thad

[Thad Van Gilder]

I've planked up a couple of sneak boxes... Is that what you mean?

-Thad

[Thorne]

And for those of us benighted souls who aren't intimately familiar with the lovely Swan Lake (other than the ballet), the size is? And would he ever venture onto larger waters like Flathead lake?

;0 )

My guess would be a garvey / large jonboat of some sort might be best -- there is a reason why those designs are so popular with hunters in many areas.

[djswan]

Just around the north edges of Flathead. Shallow and muddy.

Swan lake is pretty, when not choked out by this years fires. It's more sheltered than Flathead. We want to float the Flathead river too. Oars for sure.

I want to order the plywood today if that is feasible? I have never ordered marine ply so any tips would be awesome.

[djswan]

Oh and for the sake of knowledge, We capsized a boat when I was a kid in North Carolina while duck hunting. It was freezing out and we we're the ony boat in the lake or on it. Dang near death experience. I could right a story about it in some hunting mag. It was named Great Lake.

[Thorne]

Get a plan first, then order the ply -- otherwise you won't know how much to order, or what thickness -- they often have heavy bottoms and lighter ply on the sides.

[djswan]

Okay. I need a boat plan ASAP. I've never ordered a plan. I'm use to making them myself.;) I do have some people who can help me out with hands and brains up here. Can you make the call what plan I should get Thorne? I trust your wisdom. I'm in a building something mood. I'm bringing my "A" game.:D

NEW INFORMATION has just arrived. Pops wants a thirty five hp. Like the old boat, I think it was a 33hp?

[Aed]

I once went duck-hunting....one time.

Went out on Saginaw Bay with some one who did a lot of duck-hunting and seemed to know what he was about. He had a 14 or 16 foot aluminum boat (the generic pointy-bow, wide-beamed, semi-vee hulled, flat-transom kind) with a 20 HP outboard on it. We had three people and a dog. It wasn't too tight for space, but I don't know where we would have put a fourth hunter.

You say you want to put 4 hunters, along with a dog and decoys onto a sneak boat? I'm thinking that you might want TWO boats for that number, not just one.

Sam Devlin's site has a page devoted to duck boat plans that he's designed, you might take a look there (http://www.devlinboat.com/dcduckboats.htm). There's also link on that page to a duck boat forum, but it appears to be broken; however, this link (http://duckboats.net/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi) will get you to that forum.

[djswan]

That's a very good point. I don't want to break the point of dimishing return on sneakyness. Thanks for the links. I'm picking one now.

[Yeadon]

You might go down to the library and take a look at the John Gardner small craft books. I'm almost positive he has a sneakbox or two of common design that you could take a look at.

[djswan]

The Scaup it is. A fine duck. I didn't see anyone building one or even in use. I'll give er a go. Does anyone ever e-mail plans? I do have autocad 2004.

[djswan]

The capacities of the Scaup. I like. I guess I should be a educated consumer and shop a bit. And I haven't seen picture or rendering of the Scaup. What's is similiar?

[Todd Bradshaw]

It looks pretty darned good from the front, but I haven't seen a profile.

http://www.canvasbacks.org/images/image026.jpg

[djswan]

Thanks Todd and everyone as always for the wonderful and very informative input. Pictures do speak a thousand words. Well I didn't do that great at boat restoration. What a pain. Lets see how I do at boat building. Start the timer.

Thank you

Derek

[Lewisboats]

I don't think you are going to 4 plus Fido and decoys into that!

Steve

[djswan]

True

In my limited amount of accrued boat knowledge. I have stored this away in my wood butchering brain: boats are all about give and take. Push here it's pulls that.

I heard this recently, that boat designers make the big bucks. lol

[Lewisboats]

Have a look here at the ones called RS and Cajun Tunnel. The 20 footers are perfect for what you are looking for, with plenty of room and capacity.
http://weld-craft.com/JonBoats.htm

A plywood version wouldn't be too hard to come up with.

[Daniel Noyes]

Derek
Look at the "dory stroke" rowing article in the latest WB. The author is rowing a famous Chamberlain gunning dory, plans from John Gardners dory book. definately have a look at John Gardners plans, a couple gunning floats for large protected water in Traditional Small Craft book but the best fit for you would likely be the Chamberlian gunning dory from The Dory Book. plans available for free at your local library!!! The chamberlian Gunning dory is 19' long and renouned for it's rough water capibility, one of the few gunning boats that might actually carry four and a dog, though it will be tight.
Dan

[djswan]

Thanks again, everyone for more good information. Gee, where was all this good info the moments after I posted. Don't you guys have 24 hour emergency posting sevice.:D "Our forumites are standing by 24/7 to assist you with your with boat crises."
My Dad got really excited when I told him, I ordered a set of plans. I was very happy for him. It was a spur of the moment thing. I'm thinking I picked a good one??? I'll test her out if someone hasn't already.:)

[Todd Bradshaw]

I must admit that there is something about the Scaup that makes me want to build one. Then again, I don't hunt and I'm not equipped unless you can shoot them with a flintlock rifle - and I absolutely HATE DUCKS! We have a serious duck and goose overpopulation problem here in town and back when we had our trimaran out on a mooring it usually took an hour or more to clean the duck crap off of it every damned time we went sailing. Filthy creatures. Anybody need some slightly used colored streamers, pinwheels, rubber snakes or plastic owls? I even got so pissed at one point that I bought half a dozen rat traps and left them on the trampolines. In my mind, the best duck hunter is a hungry Chinese grad student with a loaf of bread and a Louisville Slugger.... But on a more peaceful note, I could get into sitting in a lovely marsh in a classy boat on a nice fall afternoon and watching the world go by.

[Thorne]

Found a Scaup goldmine -

http://duckboats.net/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?guest=695098

http://www.duckboats.net/forum/images/static/launching1.jpg

http://www.duckboats.net/forum/images/static/camo9.jpg

[John Bowen]

There's also this one......
https://www.boatdesigns.com/products.asp?dept=476

Plank on frame, they still have a frame kit for this one (if your time is short or, build your own).

[Simmons18]

The Devlin duckboats are good designs. I've built the Black Brant III and it's a tough, stable, true running hull. Put xynole on the bottom with some graphite in the final epoxy. Tough as nails.
Simmons18

[djswan]

I must admit that there is something about the Scaup that makes me want to build one. Then again, I don't hunt and I'm not equipped unless you can shoot them with a flintlock rifle - and I absolutely HATE DUCKS! We have a serious duck and goose overpopulation problem here in town and back when we had our trimaran out on a mooring it usually took an hour or more to clean the duck crap off of it every damned time we went sailing. Filthy creatures. Anybody need some slightly used colored streamers, pinwheels, rubber snakes or plastic owls? I even got so pissed at one point that I bought half a dozen rat traps and left them on the trampolines. In my mind, the best duck hunter is a hungry Chinese grad student with a loaf of bread and a Louisville Slugger.... But on a more peaceful note, I could get into sitting in a lovely marsh in a classy boat on a nice fall afternoon and watching the world go by.

:D :D I take it you don't have Afflack insurance.

My family will take a solemn vow to end this duck menace. Fear not Todd, I will be your champion.

[djswan]

The Devlin duckboats are good designs. I've built the Black Brant III and it's a tough, stable, true running hull. Put xynole on the bottom with some graphite in the final epoxy. Tough as nails.
Simmons18

Good info, I have a feeling now of not having a bit of buyers remorse. Very exciting.

Thorne pics were the clincher.

[Eric D]

Don't know how I missed this, I perused the main issues, but I can add quite a bit if you would like, duck hunting and boat building are my two passions.

Devlin's scaup is an awesome boat that can easily be hunted by 3 guys and a dog. 4 is way too tight, but could be done if very calm/stable waters. My friend Andrew has built one last year and is now building a much larger one (26 ft) and has his old one for sale. Actually, considering the timing and materials I believe it to be a deal. Let me know if you are interested in learning more or if you just want to build.

I do NOT think you would be happy with the BBIII as it is a smaller boat and not apparently what you are looking for. The Snowgoose is a Garvey design that has several advocates as well, slightly bigger than the scaup, but the same basic shapes.

The Scaup I mentioned above, has been hunted in Green Bay, WI effectively, even on some pretty rough days and also been tucked into some backwater slughs very easily, overall a very verstile boat

Todd, if you would help me by scouting, I am sure we can help alleviate your goose and duck issues....heck, we won't even make you eat any!!!
I do struggle with your comments that you think it is the ducks that are causing your soiling...sure it is not the Sea gulls or commorants?? Most ducks won't go near boats unless they are the stupid park mallards??

IF you do decide to build this forum and the one linked below will get you through any questions.
http://www.duckboats.net/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi

There are always guys there building different boats and are just as helpful as the guys here. Actually, it was from that site that I found this one.......

[djswan]

I've planked up a couple of sneak boxes... Is that what you mean?

-Thad

Yes, that is what I ment.:D What good info did you learn, and want to share about planking those sneak boxes?:)

[djswan]

Eric, I had three Chessys growing up and was thinking about getting a American Water Spanial. Thought and opinions, please. The German Shorthair my wife got for me died not to long ago. A bit to thin a coat, but fearless and hard headed like a Chessy.

and any help on the boat would be great.

Derek

[Todd Bradshaw]

Eric, They're ducks (stupid park mallards is about all we have down here - that's what city ducks ARE). There have been times when we could see them hopping up on the moored trimaran and getting comfortable after a sailing outing before we even got all the way back to shore in the dinghy. Every mooring field in town is crawling with them and a lot of them don't even leave during the winter. The typical Madison mooring field is pretty funny looking with all the streamers, nets, hunks of snow fence, wind-powered deck-sweepers, plastic predators and other stuff that people use on their boats to try to discourage them. None of it really works particularly well. If you're lucky you can keep some of them off, but finding fresh duck eggs in the cockpit of your sailboat isn't all that rare. The docks, sidewalks, boats and just about any other flat spots near the water are covered with duck crap. It's enough to make you wonder why people invest money in all that equipment to hunt them when a canoe and a wrist rocket would get you all the ducks you want. I've even had to steer around them a couple times in my iceboat!

As for the geese, my favorite is watching the UW marching band on their practice field trying to march around the "land mines" left by the geese. Their field is about 100 yards from the water and the geese love it. They also tend to hang out in great numbers in the meticulously groomed front yards of the wealthy estates surrounding the lakes. I'm actually a bit surprised that this situation hasn't been dealt with. In Madison, the wealthy "elite class" usually gets whatever it wants, one way or another. We have some gulls, but they don't cause much trouble and you really don't see all that many out on the water. There are a couple shopping mall parking lots about three or four miles from the nearest lake that always tend to have big gull populations hanging around, but I have no idea why they are drawn to those spots. In the fall, we get big flocks of coots along with a few loons and cormorants that pass through and visit the lakes, but they act like wild birds and aren't a problem. Unfortunately, nobody in this town run by old hippies and younger hippy-wanna-be's will ever admit that the best thing that could happen would be to take out about 80% of the resident duck and goose population. Instead, they would likely do something similar to what was done down in Janesville a couple years ago. They had a goose problem in the parks, so they got volunteers who owned Australian sheep dogs to spend their afternoons chasing the geese around (mostly from one end of the park to the other and back again). You can imagine how effective that was....

When we go up to visit my folks in Rhinelander, there are a couple duck families on the lake and we get a few geese passing through in the fall. They're a nice addition to the environment, but over-populated, semi-domesticated ducks and geese with no predators in an urban setting are a very different story. I realize that this must seem hard to believe to somebody who grew up thinking of ducks and geese as noble, wild game birds, but that's the way it is. These aren't the game animals you are used to. It's kind of a "What if muskies ate dough-balls?" kind of thing.

[Eric D]

if I could legally shoot them for you I would in a heart beat. I know that city and those lakes well, I grew up quite close as a matter of fact. BUT, you and I both know that I would be in the clink pretty quick if I was seen carrying a gun let alone discharging one on many of those areas. Especially out of of season when they aggrevate you so...

Derek: AWS dogs...I have 3 friends that have them. One hunts in Washington on the east side and loves his dog and she does well in colder water. Mind you, no ice and she is wearing a vest (I think all hunting dogs should as the water/air temps drop) 2 of them in WI here and they all love them. I am more of a lab guy, but mine is only 80# and not one of these huge 100-120# small ponies that some guys have. From what my buds say, they love them to death, smaller so they fit in the boat better and they have good drive. I have not heard of many issues (negatives on health issues etc.) regarding their breed. They have a national website for AWS and good sites can be found through the AKC.

As far as the boat, I sent you a PM with my email. Send me a list of thoughts/questions and I will try to help you the best that I can. Just let me know. I will follow this thread as well. Heading out of town to shoot some early season geese to help Todd and his affliction :cool:

[SawmillBrook]

I built the Snow Goose, designed by Devlin. My story is posted here.

http://www.devlinboat.com/homebuiltgibson.htm

I LOVE this boat. It's painted differently and it has a dodger on it now, it's extremely seaworthy. I've hunted out of a Scaup several times, it's a good boat as well. Both share similar hulls. The Snow Goose is a bit more seaworthy because the hull lifts the boat over the waves, the Scaup tends to dig.

We have an American Water Spaniel puppy, I'll let you know how he does after the season.

[coelacanth2]

When you say you want a boat big enough for 4 guys, a dog and dekes, you're looking at a lot of weight. I run about 200 stripped. By the time I'm kitted up with warm clothes, waterproof outer layer, shotgun , ammo, a thermos of coffee and lunch and cally and other impedimentia, we're probably looking at 225 to 235 my waders are Cabela's Icebusters and are about 8lbs alone. Most of my duck hunting buddies are considerably larger. the dog will be at least 65 lbs and one of these monster labs will go 110. Are your dekes cork or plastic? Cork are 5lb each weighted keel plastic only slightly lighter, nevermind the weights. It's really easy to have 500lbs of hunters and 200 - 300 lbs of gear for two guys! Conservatively, 4 hunters, a dog and a big spread could run1300 to 1500 lbs, and your boat may be riding very low. (ask me how I know-I almost wound up swimming in Assawoman Bay one blustery Feb. morning:eek:) We sometimes take two boats for a big load.

[djswan]

I got the plans. Hmmmmm not quite what I was expecting for my first set of boat plans. It leaves much for the imagination, and I have plenty of that. Well I got some wood. I'm going to cut some stuff and ask a bunch of questions.
Stitch and glue. I'm a big fan of positive wood connections, meaning that the wood can hold itself in place while glue sets or before you peg it.
The stich and glue looks like a negative wood connection, get the wood close together and positively connect it with strips of fabric and glue.

Am I reading this right?

As far as the size of the boat. We do have another boat that will do for now, actually two boats. There was just something about the Scaup, that I liked, maybe the name, the capacities, the style. And it still looks sneaky. Four folks is getting past the point of diminishing return of sneaky. I'm going on a diet to get the weight down and I'm working on developing a new breed of retrieving Chihuahua. :D

[Simmons18]

Timberframer,
Since you're doing this S&G thing for the first time, I'ld suggest you take some scrap ply and make yourself up some test joints. You'll prove to yourself the strength of the system, and maybe avoid some mistakes on your first boat.
Simmons18

[djswan]

Great idea. I'll do it. So I wasn't reading this wrong? For a lack of a better term, Or a term I'm not familiar with, Is this a fabric gusset?

[Simmons18]

timberframer,
We call them fillets. Look at clcboats.com Their "how to" area has some good basic information. Also, buy Devlin's book, if you didn't order it with your plans.
Simmons18

[djswan]

That's a mighty big fillet. I thought they were smaller than that. At what point, do you use wood as your fillet instead of wood flour? Would I get in trouble if I didn't do it that way? I could put steel or aluminium as a gusset in there. There's room for it.

And another one. Why can't you just leave the stiching in there? Stainless steel wire? If the stiching holds it together, why pull it out? I'm assuming that the fabric holds better.
I'm sure it gets into a rivet vs a weld. Pick one
or concrete and steel. Use both.

I'm not tring to push too far, but it's bugging me. I always need to know why I'm using this technique. Historical precedence works fine as a answer, but why does it work?

Derek

[Lewisboats]

A fillet spreads the load smoothly into the panels preventing a stress riser...and leaving the stitch in would proclude taping the outside...an integral part of stitch and glue. Nipping the twist off eliminates the holding ability of the wire and contrary to popular belief...stainless steel does corrode when deprived of oxygen and subject to moisture. Yes there is still moisture in the plywood. Even if there wasn't the wood would react with the metal a bit, and there is always the possibility of the stitch working itself a bit loose and eventulally fracturing the epoxy around it a bit...possibly enough to allow moisture to penetrate. Personally I prefer using plastic wire ties as my stitches because there is no problem leaving bits and pieces encased in the fillet and through the plywood under the exterior tape. Yes...fabric spreads the hold over a couple of orders of magnitude greater surface. In general...a properly done Stitch and Glue joint is not only stronger than the plywood it holds together but acts as a stringer or chinelog that is moulded in place and stiffens the entire structure. A stitch and glue hull is a monocoque structure where the loads are carried by the entire structure rather than an internal (and usually heavy) framing skeleton. When bulkheads and internal structures are filleted in you must provide large enough fillets to minimize point loads on the panels that they are attached to prevent hard spots. Something hitting the panel near a hard spot would transfer the force to that spot and could compromise the plywood at the stress riser. A wide fillet spreads this stress over a large area which can absorb more force than a concentrated area. Any flexing or buckling of the panel tends to concentrate shearing forces at hard spots too. Plywood can flex without cracking almost indefinately but try bending it over a corner and see what happens.

[djswan]

Got it, well maybe.:) Fillet is a shock absorber in this case. It's a mono frame. Hard spots are engineering nodes. Fillets are the bell bottom on point loads. Loads transfered throughout the hull. It's stiff.

Is the wood just a filling?

Thanks

Derek

[Simmons18]

Yep, Steve, good explanation!
One of the best discriptions of the S&G tecnique is that it's a 3 layer composite hull and the core just happens to be marine ply. In your words"the wood is just filling". Get to it and you'll be convinced.
Simmons18

[djswan]

Yep, Steve, good explanation!
In your words"the wood is just filling". Get to it
Simmons18

Fine then I'll get to it.:D Just had to understand the situation at hand here. I usually like to know everthing wrong with something before I know what's right about it. I've got plenty of wood to build it with. No marine ply yet. or fabric or schmuetz. Schuemtz (spelling may vary) is any glob of something icky that gets on me. Gorrila Glue is the worst. I was schuemtzed the other day from it. You got to rub it off with a rock.

So I'm going to be working with a bunch of schmuetz.
I was just wondering if this is the only prescribed method?
I'll do it if I have too, but I'm not a big fan of it. And I really hate sanding hardened schmuetz, but I'll do that too. but it sucks. Where's the CNC when I need it.

Wow, I've gone really off topic here. A wood boat is a story.

Derek