Can you recommend a sailing dinghy?

[D_Sikes]

In a classic case of putting the horse before the cart I've been looking at designs of small sailboats in which I would eventually like to build and sail, but I don't have a lot of experience sailing. My judging criteria is based more on looks then on first hand knowledge of sailboat performance. I've learned a lot from lurking around, but now I would like some input for a couple of specifics.

I'm looking for something trailorable that can be stored dry. It would be sailed in the Hampton Roads/Chesapeake Bay area with likely road trips up to St Michaels and Annoplis (where I have family). I live near the James River (near Fort Eustis if your familiar with the Newport News area) so that would be my primary messabout area. I would be going out with my wife and son (who is 4 in March, and will probably be at least 5 by the time I'm ready for sea trials). My wife probably not so much, since she thinks sailing is boring.

As for building, it does not need to be dead simple, I feel comfortable working in the intermediate skill range. I prefer the looks of a lapstrake hull. I would like to learn how to loft (I have a basic concept). I have or have access to just about any woodworking tool I might need, with the exception of a few specialty tools that I would have to buy. Oh, and if at all possible I'd like to keep the budget in the 3k range (excluding sails).

The Acorn 11'5" seems perfect to me, but I'd like some other insights from people with more experience then me. Thanks in advance.

[Tom Lathrop]

Like all Oughtred designs, the Acorn is a good looking little boat. In my opinion it does have some significant shortcomings for what you want. It's small and not just small but, since it was primarily designed as a row boat, some other qualities that you will need are sacrificed to this end. It has a narrow beam waterline, slack bilges and low sheer, all of which which make for easy rowing but not what I would want for sailing on Hampton Roads in any kind of wind or slop. This is particularly true for a novice sailor.

Even if these issues were not there, 11 1/2 feet is pretty small for the Chesapeake. I'd suggest something larger like his 14' 5" Gannet although it might be a bit much for single handing by a novice. I am currently building a 15' 8" lapstrake cat-ketch that would be much easier to handle than the Gannet and can be single handed and take the waters you wish to sail on with ease. If you really want the length of the Acorn, there are other boats in the 12 foot range that are probably more suitable.

You will probable get lots of suggestions here but, in the end, you will make the decision. I do think it will take more study to determine which boat will best suit you and your proposed sailing areas.

[David G]

You might take a look at John Welsford's designs

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/index.htm

"If I had to live my life again, I'd make the same mistakes, only sooner" -- Tallulah Bankhead

[JimD]

Take a close look at Paul Fisher's many choices. Here's one


NORTHUMBRIAN 10'6" http://www.selway-fisher.com/NCoble10p1.jpg
The concept of the Northumbrian 10'6" came from the need to have a sturdy and very seaworthy small working dinghy which could be rowed, sailed and motored easily and which would weigh no more than 70 lbs or so. She also had to have a striking appearance and on looking around at some of our traditional working craft, l revisited drawings that l had done some while ago of Yorkshire Cobles These Cobles were used for fishing and foying (tending shipping) in the rugged conditions of the NE coast and North Sea. She retains the generous freeboard and high stem of the Yorkshire Cobles along with their shapely well raked transoms, tumblehome and striking reverse sheer line. This 10'6" x 4'3" version will have a simple lug rig with a centreboard. The first boat went together in around 30 hours - from marking out the hull panels to epoxy coating and cost approximately £300 using a good quality 5 ply Marine Plywood, Douglas Fir and WEST epoxies.
The example left is by Anthony Waller.


http://www.selway-fisher.com/GPDinghyup13.htm

[Paul Pless]

I second Welsford, especially the Navigator and Pathfinder.

Navigator (http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/navigator/index.htm)

Pathfinder (http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/pathfinder/index.htm)

I just had to add this great transom shot of the navigator.
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/navigator/stern_2.jpg

[John B]

I really like the Acorn and his designs in general,but thats a very thought provoking and reasonable post by Tom.
I suppose that something that's to the forefront for me in a boat , no matter what size it is, is the potential for growth. I mean this in relation to the way you could use it.
A boat like the navigator will allow you that growth should you want to go camp cruising or off on expeditions in general. Dave Perillo's approach to cruising the Fiji Islands still has got to rank right up there for me.
His site is worth a look at anyway but if you dig I think you'll find his yasawa trip in there somewhere.
http://openboat.co.nz/

[rbgarr]

One of our forum members built and sails, with his small daughter, a Pooduck skiff, lapstrake at 12' 10' long which has two different sail rigs and rows and motors smartly. Mimimal lofting required, but she'd be a honey for the place you will be using her.

If you were to attend a Woodenboat School Shellback-building class (as a family?) you'd be well ahead of the game since the Pooduck is a slightly larger version of the Shellback. WB may still sell plans for the boat. Here's one listed for sale on the WB Online Classifieds. http://tinyurl.com/28zsy5
Search the Forum archives for other threads about the boat, some with pictures or links to.

[Wiley Baggins]

I'd say ensure you want to sail and gain a better understanding of what would suit you by getting on the water in someone else's boat. I imagine there are some one designs that race in you area, maybe the Hampton One Design - http://www.shorenet.net/hamptonone/intro.htm.

You should be able to sign up with someone racing in that or some other class. Of course, many people that like sailing don't like racing, and you may find yourself in that camp. Hopefully, the experience will still be of value even if that is the case.

In a nod towards blasphemy, you may also be able to find a tired but wholly serviceable fiberglass one design - a 420, or the like, that will allow you to get on the water sooner rather than later.

This is not a knock on building, I've built and continue to build. The above should help you evaluate your goals and gain a better understanding of what your needs are and will be going forward.

[pipefitter]

Some lookers here. Don't know squat about sailing other than it takes wind to do it but as far as looks go and a nice write up about it in WB#187 is Coquina

http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=2417

[Woxbox]

I'll second the motion to go for a bigger boat, whatever model you decide on. Comparing similar types, 16 feet of boat feels much more secure and has much more people space in it than a 12 foot boat. The longer boat will move noticably better too -- important when you're in areas with tides and lots of traffic.

[Ron Paro]

In a classic case of putting the horse before the cart I've been looking at designs of small sailboats in which I would eventually like to build and sail, but I don't have a lot of experience sailing. My judging criteria is based more on looks then on first hand knowledge of sailboat performance.
D_, Welcome to the forum! I don't think that there is anything wrong with your desire to choose and build a boat before you have much sailing experience. I had absolutely zero sailing experience before building my Jimmy Skiff this year. I had only been out in motor boats or kayaks prior to finishing my boat in July. Since then, I have logged about 45 hours of sailing my JS, and I have thoroughly enjoyed every minute! :D

The Jimmy Skiff is 13'2", but is a very light boat for this size. At about 150#, and only 50" beam, it may be on the light and narrow side for choppy bay conditions, (although the design was based on the skiffs used as workboats on Chesapeake Bay). I have sailed my little boat in 25 MPH winds, but I certainly would not want to sail this boat in these conditions with a toddler aboard. However, if you choose your conditions to match your ability, and are not sailing too far from safety, then a boat of this size can be perfect as a first boat to build and sail.

Most of my sailing has been single-handed, but I have sailed with one, and two passengers on-board without difficulty.

Sailing with a four or five-year-old as your crew, you'll probably want a boat that you can easily and relatively quickly get into the water and rigged for sail, as opposed to one that has multiple sails and masts, etc.

Below is a picture of me on my very first day of sailing. - Ron
http://jimmyskiff.blogspot.com

http://bp2.blogger.com/_XuaT2XHyCMw/RpA7BSe7AjI/AAAAAAAAAXc/ZjT8d74Hc8I/s400/IMG_3523.JPG

[Marcio Moreira]

how about a local designer:

Karl Stambaugh (http://www.cmdboats.com)

This is his windward 15 design:

http://www.cmdboats.com/images/w15sail.gif

Simple and very good looking

good search!

Márcio

[kenjamin]

Here's a second for the above Stambaugh skiff.
http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/sailingskiff.jpg
Add one toddler and you're there.
While maybe more than a boat than a dinghy, it will be a better, more interesting sailor for dad, and more secure feeling for the family. Study plans are only $5 and no, I wouldn't profit in any way.
I also like Arch Davis's Laughing Gull which is similar but self-bailing.
Longer boats can be easier to build than short ones as the bends of the plywood may not be as severe. And a shorter boat will not save you any money if you find that it doesn't meet your needs and you then have to build a longer one.

[BrianY]

Just a slight correction -The photo kenjamin posted above is NOT Stambaugh's Windward 15 - the boat that Marcio posted just previous to kenjamin's post. Rather, the boat in kenjamin's photo is another Stambaugh design called the "Sailing Skiff 15". The difference between the two boats is that the Sailing Skiff 15 is a flat bottom skiff designed to row well in addition to being a good sailer. The Windward 15 is a vee bottom sailor/camp cruiser. The SS15 is an easier build than the Windward (which is, however, well within the reach of a first time builder).

Anyway, check out Stambaugh's website and you'll see the differences.

[kenjamin]

Sorry for the mistake. I only saw one 15' sailing skiff and made the incorrect assumption.

[D_Sikes]

Thanks for all of the wonderful suggestions. My idea is two fold, to teach myself semi-traditional wooden boat building and to learn to sail. I think with my son on board I would probably stick to rowing in sheltered area's for now.

I have thought about the used glass boats, as there are definatley bargains to be had, especially as the seasons change, but that would only get me halfway to my goal.

I won't be able to follow up on links until I get back on land (This boat is plenty big, and it has high speed internet at sea, not to mention 5,000 of my best friends and a few birds parked in the hanger bay). By all means though I am open to any and all suggestions, I have a while to think about this. I can't even start until I get back from an upcoming deployment, so it's gonna be a while!

[Tristan]

The Windward 15 and the Jimmyskiff look a lot like the traditional crab skiffs used on the Chesapeake. They also would be easier to build that the lapstrake boats. I'd sure give them strong consideration.

[Honda_Shadow]

Try a NC Spritsail Skiff. It's big, (20'-6") but it's VERY simple, it's really cheap, (made of southern yellow pine and cedar - both available from The Home Cheapo) and very safe. (I've seen them sail 8 people on one, some of them weighing well over 200 pounds, and it barely sinks to the marked water line) It even can be fast; they used to race them on Labor Day in Morehead City. Plans are $15 bucks from the NC Maritime Museum in Beaufort, NC.

http://www.ncmaritimemuseum.com/w7-705.html

Here's a picture of one in a model building book on this boat...

http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51B4zRmltFL._SS500_.jpg

[BrianY]

Also check out Doug Hylan's Chesapeake Crab Skiff - similar to Stambaugh's Windward 15, but to my eye a bit better looking. Be forewarned, though, that althought they're very clear and easy to understand, the plans come with no directions. You will have to read and study some books on boat building to know what to do. Still, the boat is buildable by beginners. DavidF here on the WBF built one and it's a real beauty.

here's a link to Doug Hylan's website: http://www.dhylanboats.com/

[dredbob]

I'll second (or third) the recommendations for the Windward 15, or any of the Chesapeake Bay traditional skiffs. Karl Stambaugh has a good eye for capturing the traditional with more modern construction, and also consider any of Pete Culler's skiff designs, which were heavily influenced by his time on the Chesapeake, and some of which are lapstrake. Howard Chapelle also designed some Bay style small craft, plans for which are available from the Smithsonian. There are also a couple of Chesapeake style craft in Reuel Parker's _The Sharpie Book_.

I also concur with those who say go with a craft at least 15-17 feet if you really want to be comfortable sailing three or four people. Ideally everyone has a thwart to themselves.

Bob
----

[boatbear]

Welcome to the forum, D. I'll back up Bob's suggestion re:15-17 (bigger even) feet being better, despite his unfortunate slip with the 'T' word (some people just can't keep their minds above their navels). A bigger boat gives more room (bleeding obvious) and also a much nicer feeling of stability. Also, you don't need to throw two people out so you can take an extra couple for a sail.

I'll also throw in a plug for John Gardner's 'The Dory Book' which has a lot of info on boatbuilding techniques, beautiful diagrams, and plans for a range of dories right through the range you are considering. And yes, that Navigator is stunning.
Charlie

[esingleman]

I built Joel White's Pooduck Skiff (see the dinky photo), it was a fun project and I love the boat. It is big enough for my wife and I, and perhaps a small child. Got the idea when I saw a guy sailing a shellback dinghy in Mystic, and though a little bigger was going to be better. Solid and very stable boat, handles chop and wakes very well. I do suggets a design with a jib, because these lug rig and similar designs don't point very well to winward, and the jib helps tremendously when tacking. Also the boat is light enough that my wife and I can roll her on a dolly to launch where the trailer is not accessible or permitted.

I might have gone to a gunter rig for better winward performance, but the gaff on top of the lug rig sure looks pretty. I though after seeing the Penobscott 17 that that boat may have been another choice, probably get another couple on board, but I picked up a Herreshoff 12-1/2 shipwreck/restoration project for that purpose.

Godd luck with your selection, and realize that many of the suggested boats are beautiful, but it is the the experience of building her and the pride of a job well done that will endear her to you.

Erick S

[Eric Hvalsoe]

D Sykes,
At the risk of introducing something a little over your head or beyond your means, you might as well take a look at my site, http://www.hvalsoe-boats.com
The 13 and 16 are complex small boats. The last couple of discussions I had with folks about plans turned into one commission and another possible commission. Good luck,
Eric

[esingleman]

Eric,

I was going to mention your boats as I was first pointed to your site in a thread I saw a few weeks ago. Absolutely beautiful boats. If I had run into those designs six years ago, I probably would have approached you for plans. A bit more work then the Joel White glued lapstrake designs with only three chines, but the traditional lapstake look is well worth the effort. I wish you lots of success.

Erick S.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

A friend has advised me that I may have gone over the line by inserting my web site. If so, apologies to the Forum. There have been many good responses for Sikes. I'll just go back to the original question and throw a couple of cents in. I agree that sikes should look for something bigger than twelve feet. This is you, your wife, and your child, for gosh sakes, find something that is comfortable for all three and can take a little weather. You can find a boat that is is primarily a sailing design - but I'd suggest a hull that is also a fully capable pulling boat, both in single and tandem configurations. I feel that plywood lapstrake is somewhat (I said only somewhat) less skill intensive than plank on frame, and therefore a better candidate for the home builder, especially a novice. More parts, more planks, more work -think about this when you are looking at designs. Think Dory versus Whitehall. Glued ply lapstrake can dispense with some of the elements of traditional construction. such as bent ribs etc. The ply boats can be very beatiful, very functional, simpler to build and possibly less work to maintain. That said, in my heart, glued ply does not have the soul of cedar on oak. That is just my bias, not in any way disparaging other fine builders, I build with ply when commissioned to do so. A well built traditional lapstrake hull, in both execution and materials, will be fine on the trailer, obviously glued plywood as well. Trailer support another discussion. A decked or partially decked hull will add some security and some expense. I think it is possible to find a strictly open boat that would fit your needs. I like simple unstayed rigs. I like loose footed sails without a boom to duck under. Beam and the midship section is a basic indicator of the comfort and stability of the hull. If round bottom, in terms of a dinghy design midsection, ample beam, a bottom that is flatter rather than steeper but allows a distinct turn of the bilge that is at or above the waterline, and flair continuing to the sheer, all contribute to both initial and reserve stability. Dorys tend to have less initial stability and good reserve stability. True round bottom is the Mercedes - but there are many fine multi chine plywood panel designs, dorys, even flat or v bottom skiffs. Is this your first boat and really, you want to get out on the water - stick with a simpler design. If you want to take the plunge into traditional lapstake, and/or a sophisticated round bottom hull design, consider taking a class or workshop that will ultimately speed along your own project.
Best of Luck
Eric Hvalsoe

[D_Sikes]

Again, thanks for all the great info and addressing some of the finer points I wouldn't know to consider.

Eric, plugging your own website is more then welcome in my thread! Beautiful work. I love the look of cedar on oak as well. I'm not put off by hard work, I'm a firm believer in craftsmanship and that if something is worth doing it's worth doing right, even if it takes me 5 years to devolope the skills necasary to build the boat I want.

I've looked into some classes in St Micheals since it's somewhat close and my mother in law is there (keep the wife and kid entertained). Of course, I have a deployment to do first, so I plan on reading up as much as I can and spending as much time in the wood shop as possible (one of the shops in my division). I plan on doing some boat models and anything else I can get away with.

[Bob (oh, THAT Bob)]

I'm a novice sailor, and I can tell you that there is nothing complicated to handling a boat with a jib. It just takes a bit longer to rig, and one more thing to adjust when you tack, but that makes things interesting. As long as you have jib cleats to hold the sheets, not like a Flying Junior or similar which have no cleats are are designed for two collegiate sailors. It IS too complicated for me to go forward to raise a jib when on the water, but I raise both sails on the hard, carefully launch the boat with the sheets loose, lower the centerboard and rudder 6", pull in the sheets and *sail off in control* and lower the centerboard and rudder at my leisure. (And the reverse when sailing in to land the boat.) This last part is a biggie for me, I don't like to push off and try to rig things, the rudder flailing, when singlehanding. So having centerboards and rudder that can go partially down and fully retract (without having to take the rudder off) is another big design plus. The boom clears my head by over a foot when seated, less sail area that way but very user friendly. I would not go out in a boat that does not have enough fixed flotation to sail off easily after righting from a capsize, and I am also a huge fan of self-bailing designs, and wide enough coamings that the boat does not take on water if knocked down (which also is more comfortable when hiking out).

My boat is 15', 400 lbs and I am able to handle and launch it singlehanded competently after about 10 times out. It is a beamy fiberglass design (apologies), lots of flare, so a ton of stability for a centerboard boat, deep seats and roomy enough for a family, and I love it on the lake, but when there is a foot or more of chop, it *whangs* onto each crest and makes ugly noises that make me wince, though that may be due to the paper thin 'glass layup and may not be a factor for a stiffer wood hull. That said, on those days it would be nicer to have a boat designed for bigger waters (or a 'Hobie, they just slice through chop). I've always admired the design of the Lightning, and the Interlake, they appear very similar. I have not sailed either but I believe that the Lightning is designed for choppy bays like San Francisco. I have seen an Interlake sail in chop and it was superior to my boat. The Lightning is 19', hard chines so I think easy to build from large plywood sections (little or no compound curves) yet still looks elegant, though of course not in the same league as something from Eric H's shop. I think it may be possible to build it either centerboard or keel. A Lightning would be heavy enough that you might need a second person to help you pull it up the ramp if there is not a block and tackle or winch where you launch it (unless you are able to vehicle launch).

Just my two cents.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Ay,
I just would not want to drag 400# on the beach. All practical considerations aside - mind you I grew up on fiberglass boats, - the sound of a wood hull slapping and gurgling through the water is so much more pleasant than the thud of fiberglass!
Eric