US to Bahama Revisited [Archive] - The WoodenBoat Forum

Lewisboats

09-20-2007, 02:21 PM

http://angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Stuff/Bahama_Cutter_Linesplan.JPG

A Long time ago I proposed a box keeled hull for a sailing rig but it had too much displacement and was unwieldly. Here is a refinement of said hull (actually a radical redo of a different hull)...rigged as a Gaff Cutter with the mast aft enough to provide a Vee berth forward at anchor (8 Ft+/- for the berth). {Pardon if i don't show the mast as it dimishishes the hull picture enormously.} Quarter berths are provided under a selfdraining cockpit floor and a galley and head are provided for amidships (along with another double berth if needed). The design is specifically aimed at the US/Bahama crossing with an abundance of displacement for stability with less than 4 ft of draft. A Pivoting keel of Lead is provided for...for additional lateral resistance in the crossing (not shown). Length is 24.8 ft with headroom for a 6 footer along the centerline in the cabin. LOA is 24.8 ft (LWL of 24 ft) with a maximum beam of 7.65' and a beam at the waterline of 6.9 ft. Displacement is 6350 lbs with a fixed lead keel, bottom of the box keel shoe(lead) and swing keel of 3350 lbs total. The hull would be cold molded of 3 mm plywood over an initial strip plank to a thickness of 1". The boat is very trailerable but also capable of some blue water (in decent weather) sailing...So... anything I might have missed?
Steve

P.L.Lenihan

09-20-2007, 07:30 PM

You always come up with some nifty designs Steven. Regarding this one, I think the very shallow box-keel would be a real pain to build and an un-neccesary complication for such a small hull.That is,a terrible amount of work for scant benefit.As for the hull construction, why not just the 1 inch strips sheathed inside and out with fiberglass,double thickness on the outside ?

Peter

donald branscom

09-20-2007, 07:35 PM

Nice design but I would not consider 6,350 lbs., trailerable.
Maybe once a year.

Woxbox

09-20-2007, 08:45 PM

I'm missing the point of the box keel. What does it add in this design?

Lewisboats

09-21-2007, 10:38 AM

Well...you know me...gotta be difficult. The Box keel is an attempt to give a 6 footer standing headroom in a 25 ft boat...but of course then the compromises come in...it probably doubles the displacement and adds drag. I'll have to save a copy and shave the keel off to see just how much it actually adds displacement wise. It does add almost 6 inches of headroom which otherwise would be sticking up and acting as wind-age. Of course I could go with about 4.5 ft of headroom which is about par for something that size, reducing the shear and cabin height and removing the box keel but then it would be getting pretty close to what is already out there...just some subtle differences. The extra displacement isn't all that bad by itself...there are some thoughts that extra displacement adds to the seaworthiness, eases the motion and makes it a more comfortable ride when taken in conjunction with the form stability of the design. I do agree that getting the box area strong enough to support the rest of the keel weight and stand up to a grounding or two would be a challenge. Still...I'm just looking for opinions from those more experienced than I and trying to see if the the kinks can be worked out or it is a waste.

Lewisboats

09-21-2007, 11:16 AM

Just for Sh!ts and Giggles I did trim the box section off, reduced the height of the shear and the cabin sides and crown and got headroom down to an interior 4 ft 7 in. Displacement is down to 5000 lbs and draft with shown keel is 35 inches. I do actually like the look and 4 ft 7 in. wouldn't be too bad for headroom (for short little me anyways). Unloaded and empty dry trailer weight would probably be around 1000 lbs less and you can always sail it light.

http://angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Stuff/BahamaCutter3.JPG

Brian Palmer

09-21-2007, 11:56 AM

Who you gonna pay to go out on that foredeck to handle the headsails, dock lines, the anchor, or a sea anchor?

See here at about 3:00 minutes.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vXDOhF72zRE

--Brian

Lewisboats

09-21-2007, 12:26 PM

Yes...that is one of the drawbacks of a raised shear cabin design. I would be considering two safety wires along the edges of the cabin. You wear a belt with a safety rope and walk on the opposite side (most likely windward). The use of roller furlers on the foresails and a hatch or two forward for anchor handling should minimize the need to go forward along the exterior of the boat.

Woxbox

09-21-2007, 07:56 PM

Better yet, just put a decent sized hatch forward that you can stand in waist deep to do that foredeck work.

As to the box keel, how do the sail area and mast height differ with and without? The shallower boat will be more easily driven, but how much stability/sail area do you give up? If not that much, then you've probably got a faster boat in the second model.

JimD

09-21-2007, 08:55 PM

Steve, ol' buddy, I say this with no offence intended but with frank honesty. I think its...er, um, not to my liking. Why don't ya just put a real cabin on a real deck, maybe slacken the bilges to give the hull some depth? You'll have a cabin you can stand in and a deck you can work on. Glen-L's 22 foot Amigo has six feet of headroom, 3 feet draft, and a displacement of 5100#.

http://www.glen-l.com/designs/sailboat/sailboat-images/dsn-ami.jpg

http://www.glen-l.com/designs/sailboat/sailboat-images/dsn-amilc.gif

Paul Fisher's Black Swan is about the same

http://www.selway-fisher.com/BSwan22d1.gif

Lyle Hess's Falmouth 22 also has six feet to stand in and is one of the saltiest little ships ever drawn

http://www.samlmorse.com/img/tmp/fc_layout2.gif (http://www.samlmorse.com/img/tmp/fc_layout1.gif)

Lewisboats

09-21-2007, 11:43 PM

No offense taken...different strokes. I happen to like a raised shear...its different than most of what is out there and am usually one who goes for stuff that is out of the norm. Not that I don't like traditional styles...but I like to play with alternatives too. I'd prefer to here someone say " Well...that's different" or even "I don't know if I like it but it is unique" when they first see it rather than "Hey...that looks like a _________" (fill in the blank) or "that reminds me of" or " that is similar to". You never know, I might come up with something one day that garners enough attention to be worth developing into a viable design.

As to the sail area...I anticipate it would be about the same...the hull without the box keel is stiffer and the metacentric height is higher but there is less ballast so the CG would be a bit higher and you would probably have to reef a bit sooner. It should be easier to move in light airs as it has less surface area drag. Don't forget the swing keel/centerboard also lowers the CG when down on either design so it should be able to take a good sized sail area...especially if you have a high peaked gaff with a couple of fair sized foresails.

Dave Hadfield

09-22-2007, 10:34 AM

I spent 10 years trailer-sailing. Constructive criticism, for what it's worth...

You'll slide right off those curved decks, especially if they're wet. Flatter is better -- more useable area.

It's very heavy. A 1990 MacGregor 26 weighs 2000 lbs loaded. I know that's a bit of a lightweight boat for the deep blue sea, but 6300 lbs is a lot for 24 ft -- especially if you're going to trailer. And any kind of a keel is a pain in the a## when going onto a trailer.

The way to get standing headroom in a small boat is to play with the deck, not the hull. Pop-tops, slot-tops, raising tops all give you what you need much more simply.

I think a lead centerboard would bend sideways.

If you're making it out of plywood, 23 ft is a lot easier than 24+ ft (though as you're cold molding, I suppose the ply goes on the bias and this doesn't apply).

In the Bahamas I'd much rather draw 2 ft than 3 ft. Anchorages there are crowded.

Frankly, I'd go for a lighter, simpler, shallower boat that will take a knockdown, and make it so it will easily reef. I'd stay with about 4.5 ft down below, with an opening top of some kind to double the air and space and light when at anchor.

But hey, it's your boat and it's just a sketch at this point, and you can do it any darn way you want.

JimD

09-22-2007, 10:50 AM

I'd prefer to here someone say " Well...that's different" or even "I don't know if I like it but it is unique"

In that case... Well, that's different. I don't know if I like it but it is unique. :D

So aesthetics aside. You already know all this but flush or raised decks can be a great way to get more width in the cabin of a small boat but a poor way to get more height. I think you'd be farther along with a proper fore deck or at least run the deck in more or less a straight line to the stem. And a deeper vee hull or slack bilge would be easier to build than a box or seabright type keel. Do you know of any successful flush deckers with standing headroom that are under 30 feet lod? Just curious.

Mertens Vagabond 20

http://bateau.com/images/boatpics/VG20_pr.gif

Vag 26 with stand up room in the cabin

http://bateau.com/prodimages/VG26_350.jpg

Hartley 30 flush decker with stand up room most of the way forward

http://www.hartley-boats.com/images/30a.jpg

Woxbox

09-22-2007, 02:38 PM

http://dixdesign.com/hb30gaff.gif

There's the Hout Bay 30 from Dudley Dix. Not quite under 30 feet.
http://dixdesign.com/hb30.htm
I beleive there's something very similar out there that is a couple of feet shorter, but I can't recall where I saw it now, a Crocker, perhaps?

Lewisboats

09-22-2007, 02:59 PM

Jim...I think you are illustrating my point more clearly than I could. You show me existing designs (its already been done) and say I should alter things to be more like these...I say why? I am not looking to come up with something that closely resembles anything else...at least not with this one. Also...if you would note...the last linesplan shown has relinquished the box keel (altho I will still work on it) and reduced headroom to 4 ft 7 inches. Now that I have an iteration that actually less than what I want and one that is at the maxumum of what I want I can start to narrow the differences. About 15 different saves ago is the hull I started with (below) and I am sure I'll end up with at least half that number of additional variations before I get down near the center of the spiral. At the end I still don't want it to look like anything else. As to the slack bilges...If I were to uncrease the edges of the box keel and smooth things out a bit...it would closely resemble the slack bilges shown...and displace only slightly less than box keel originally did. Less difference than you might expect.

This is something I was noodling for the Around in Ten challenge...just to see what I could come up with that would meet the criteria. This displaces about 3500 lbs at 10 ft with standing headroom (6 ft) aft in the box keel (along the keels chine is the sole). I took this and started scaling up and adjusting as I went. There is one in the middle that runs about 16 ft that looks interesting too.
http://angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Stuff/AIT/MOC7.JPG

JimD

09-22-2007, 03:30 PM

You show me existing designs (its already been done) and say I should alter things to be more like these...I say why?

Because the existing designs work? :o A deck that's easy to get around on matters in the most practical ways. With headroom reduced to 4'7" on a 25 foot boat you should be able to make the deck almost flat and have a better boat for it. I'm all for innovation that offers improvement but it sorta looks like you are stubbornly trying to be different for the sake of being different and at the risk of having a less safe and useful boat. Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Think you'll ever build one of your own designs? I'm still thinking of a very small one of mine. Not quite as radical as the Around in Ten boats, but a very micro cruiser at any rate. Fairly quick and cheap to build and no great loss if it doesn't meet expectations.

Lewisboats

09-22-2007, 03:41 PM

Currently under construction (in fact I am about to go out the door and cut some more panels). This is an old picture and the cabin roof has changed slightly (a flat center area was added for a slot and access to the mast) the hull is stitched and glued and the keel has been laminated on but not shaped.

I have built 8 or 9 of my designs so far (still breathin' air and not water :eek: :D )

A flat deck is not a flat deck at heel...it is an angled deck :D

http://angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Stuff/GuppyII_Linesplan.JPG

http://angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Stuff/Guppy/keellam.JPG

JimD

09-22-2007, 04:00 PM

Now this one has piqued my interest! :) Got a time line for launching? Got more construction photos?

http://angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Stuff/Guppy/keellam.JPG

johnw

09-22-2007, 04:25 PM

On a 24-footer, I'd go with sitting headroom and a dodger you can stand under while using the galley. Raised deck is fine, as long as it's nice and flat, like a Cal-20, so you don't slide off. And if you want a heavy centerboard, go with steel. If it's thick enough, it will be heavy enough.

Lewisboats

09-22-2007, 04:31 PM

Now this one has piqued my interest! :) Got a time line for launching? Got more construction photos?

http://www.angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/html/buildnav_a.htm Some of the boats I have built or are in the process (unfinished :o ...are they ever?). The page is out of date too, I converted the ScoutCanu to a sailing canoe with outriggers. I really want to launch it (Guppy) at Rend Lake next year but there is lots to do in the meantime. I actually havent worked on it very much in the last two years...70 hr/7 day work weeks kinda put a kink in the building. I did the keel this summer and am currently working on some of the cabin panels. I just came in because the batteries died...about 2 ft short of finishing cutting. I'll finish cutting tonight after work or tomorrow, then I'll lay out the rest. I gotta get them put together while I still have decent temps for the epoxy.

Woxbox

09-22-2007, 10:45 PM

How close do you figure your thinking has gotten you to Bolger's rethinking of the Sea Bird concept? 23' x 7'9" x 2'6" , flush deck, shallow fixed keel.

http://ca.geocities.com/nohnpages/GaffRig.GIF

JimD

09-23-2007, 10:45 AM

Steve, when's that little hull going to be flipped?

Lewisboats

09-23-2007, 12:10 PM

Actually it has been flipped a few times since it went 3d. It is currently upright storing the cut panels...as you can see my building space is verrry crowded. Started cutting some more today and the freshly charged battery died within 2 minutes...I'm thinking the charger is getting flaky. The battery is only on its 6th or 7th charge cycle so I don't think it is the problem...but I put another in the charger to find out. I don't want to change to a corded saw as the blade isn't the same width and doesn't have the same # of teeth...Panel blade to Carbide toothed, it would change the cut more than I want.

P.L.Lenihan

09-24-2007, 03:49 AM

I keep looking at your sheer line and it strikes me as being very sweet and that,with a half decent crowned foredeck combined with a lovely little pilothouse, would come out looking very handsome indeed.For styling,one might try different rakes to the front of the pilothouse to get something of a unique"look" ,along with fiddling abit with the rake of both the stem and stern.
A boat that looks like a "normal" boat will have the best chances of becoming popular,so thinks me :-)

Peter

Lewisboats

09-24-2007, 10:30 AM

Peter...which hull? The second wouldn't have but 3 ft of headroom without the raised shear. I could raise the shear 6" but that wouldn't give much additional HR and might not look so good.

P.L.Lenihan

09-24-2007, 02:07 PM

Lewisboats

09-29-2007, 10:53 PM

Sorry about that Steve,I was refering to the first one at the top of your post.Raising the shear ,especially forward(as in a broken shear line),to get decent headroom won't hurt the boat.In fact, it will add considerably to your reserve bouyancy and by happy coincidence,help make the standing headroom pilothouse less cumbersome.
But I refuse to take responsability for the outcome......I'm just encouraging you onward in your design efforts :-) I also do enjoy peaking in every once in a while to see what you've come up with!

Peter

Sorry...haven't checked this thread in a few days...work mostly. A broken shearline...Hmmm...hadn't thought of that. I HAVE been doing a bit of massaging on the original Box keeled design...along with the other. If the Bilges were slackened significantly...there would be a definite reduction in the displacement, along with narrowing the keel so it is about 18" wide at the needed area. What we come up with is the hull below. Also attached is a pic of the other design that came from removing the box.

http://angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Stuff/BoxKeelCruiser25.JPG

http://angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Stuff/Bahama_Cutter5.JPG