Question for Todd Bradshaw from the UK if he is out there!

[DiamondBullet]

I'm keeping this short as you must be a busy man. I bought a copy of your Canoe Sail Rig book and read it twice from end to end, with a view to fitting a balanced lug sail to our two-man (plastic) kayak (I know it's not wood or pretty, but we have limited time and resources). It is a superb book which you must have spent a good deal of time creating. Highly recommended to all. It has left me with a problem though. I have made drawings with centre of sail, effort etc. but from your comments it will be completely out of balance when sailing. Putting a mizzen on will overcomplicate the whole thing. I was hoping that leeboard position/size and a larger rudder would help resolve it. I wanted to make shallow draft leeboards as per your book. I have linked to a pdf of my drawings:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/caroledesign/sail/Kiwi sail small.pdf

I already have the 2-piece mast made, but don't want to waste my time making the whole thing to be disappointed. We will be running outriggers modified from our paddles held to the deck with clamps and inflatable ends (this seems to work under load tests). We have two vee sails which work well (the smaller one I made) but the wind always seems to be in the wrong direction which frustrates us enormously!! The sail material will be light kite material (as was used on the vee sail and I happen to have a load of it) to keep weight down. At the moment the top boom will be a windsurf boom cut down and joined by its adjusters so it will take apart for packing. The bottom spar will most probably be plastic electrical conduit or snap together bendy tent poles (like on the vee sail). Any comments would be very welcome and appreciated. If there is a better way I'm sure you will know it! I have been in contact with another member who has been extremely helpful, but now I have met with this dilemma I think I need further help before drilling holes.

My apologies for even mentioning a plastic boat on this forum. We love wooden boats!

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Welcome to the forum, nice to see another Brit.

Todd is one of the stars of this forum and will doubtless be along to say someting sensible in due course.

Sails on a kayak are kind of rare, they are more commonly seen on canoes (not much more common..) there's a friendly canoe based site in the UK called "Song of the Paddle" where like minded loonies hang out.

http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/forum

[DiamondBullet]

Thanks very much for your kind welcome. I have browsed the 'Song of the Paddle' site in the past and found it very interesting. One of the reasons I am asking for Todd's valued opinion is because of his in-depth knowledge which he presents in language that we non-sailors can grasp, in an unpatronising way. I have already learned so much from his book, but obviously need to learn more out on the water. We fell into paddling by accident and are now falling into sailing the same way. Half the fun is learning as I'm sure many of your contributors will agree.

[Ron Paro]

DimaondBullet,
Your link seems to be broken. Can you reply with the link as text? I am very interested in this topic, as I too have a plastic kayak that I have thought of adding a sail to. This is even after building and sailing a wooden skiff.
Thanks - Ron http://jimmyskiff.blogspot.com

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Ron,
Here's the URL link: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/caroledesign/sail/Kiwi sail small.pdf
I hope this works for you. I wouldn't take the images for your own design yet! We're still developing it. But we will post information as the design progresses and let you know if it works out so you will know the problems we have to overcome. I admire your skills at creating a skiff. Do you have a picture? Best regards.

[DiamondBullet]

Ron,

Just realised the spaces may be causing problems. Try this: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/caroledesign/sail/Kiwi_sail_small.pdf and it should link. Sorry, I'm on a Mac and it doesn't seem to affect it.

[DiamondBullet]

Ron,

Just seen the excellent piccies on the web link, so belay the picture request!! You can tell I'm new to this forum thingy, it's so damn obvious!

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

The Kiwi pdf Link (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/caroledesign/sail/Kiwi%20sail%20small.pdf)
Couple of questions
1. Have you a sail area for that?
2. Have you any conventional dinghy sailing experience?

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Stazzer,

Sail area 27sq ft.
Sailing experience: downwind vee sail only. I think you may be about to inform me this could be a challenging sailing experience!

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Stazzer,

Just noticed you are in Wales. My dad came from Mountain Ash and worked in Deep Duffryn. Lovely country North and South!

[Oscarvan]

I think you may be about to inform me this could be a challenging sailing experience!

Yup... ;)

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Oscarvan,

You are a man of many words! Well we're up for it!! Kayakers are pretty used to getting wet. Not that we like to make a habit of it.

[Ron Paro]

Diamond, Thanks for the nice comment on my Jimmy Skiff, and posting the fixed link. Have you seen the set up that CLC uses for thier Kayak sail rig? http://www.clcboats.com/boats/sailrig.php

It seems that you may want to figure out a way to mount your leeboard so that it can be adjusted with regard to foreward and aft positions. I'm not sure how this could be done though.
Ron

[Todd Bradshaw]

Greetings and welcome to the looney bin! Yes, you have a bit of a potential balance problem on your hands, though it's rather difficult to say just how much of a problem it will be when you're actually out on the water. Since the boat should stay fairly level fore-and-aft due to the fixed seat positions and pretty close to upright due to the outrigger, I suspect that the hull and stems should make a better than average contribution to tracking, despite the lack of balance in the CE/CLP equation - which should help. As with nearly all sailing canoes though, the leeboard and it's position are huge factors in determining the CLP, with the stems, keel shape, etc. playing smaller roles. The outrigger floats' shape, size, drag and sideways "bite" on the water are also bound to have some effect.

I suppose the ideal position for the leeboard bracket from a structural/practical standpoint is the middle of the boat, but from a sailing standpoint I'd look into the possibility of clamping it to the cockpit rim up in front of the bow seat. As long as you can put it there without creating a serious entrapment hazard for the person in that seat, the fact that it is closer to the sail's CE is more important than the fact that the boards are unusually close to one end of the hull. It also puts them in a great position for easy adjustment as the bow seat's occupant can just reach down and grab them. The bracket would obviously need to have shoulder blocks parallel to the keel to keep the boards parallel, but especially if it was width-adjustable, you could always try it in the middle and then up front to see just how much difference it makes in the sailing balance.

A good example of this is the Klepper Aerius II which in terms of numbers, is probably one the most popular sailing kayaks in the world. Usually they have a sloop rig and the combined main/jib CE for it is only going to be 12"-18" aft of the mast. The leeboard bracket is mounted way forward to compensate. If you have enough room up there to do something similar, I think you should be fine. Canoe and kayak hulls are generally so barren from an "appendage" standpoint, that if you get the boards in the right place and you're not constantly going out of fore-and-aft trim, the rest of the rig will pretty much fall into line. (I can't tell whether or not this one is a Klepper, but it's similar and shows the forward board position)

http://expe.voillemont-deiber.qc.ca/bibliotheque/Image/klepper/expe123.jpg


I don't think there is any question that your lug rig plan is quietly screaming for a mizzen if you ever feel like adding one. Yes, it's more stuff to mess with and yes, it may be adding sail area that you hadn't planned on, but the combination of being able to balance out a rather tricky installation and the ability to steer with the sail trim are not to be underestimated. As I mentioned in the book, most top-mounted kayak rudders aren't really designed to perform all that well under heavy side loads and being able to do a lot of your steering with mizzen trim alone would take most of the strain off of the rudder. It's also kind of fun, since we're all initially brainwashed into thinking that we'll be helpless out on the water unless have some sort of steerable fin back there.

For some strange reason, most of my twin-sail customers seem to build their rudders last and most have taken their boats out for a test sail before finishing the rudder installation. Even those who have never sailed are amazed at how well they can steer with no rudder, just by adjusting the balance between wind pressure on the main and wind pressure on the mizzen.
Once in a while, you stumble upon something that's effective, yet so simple that people can intuitively grasp the concept and have success with it almost immediately. The Greenland paddle is one, and as long as the sail area is within reason, steering with a twin-sailed canoe rig is another. Most customers will eventually complete and mount their rudders, as they are handy - especially in close quarters, but the steering experience thay gain before the rudder is installed is quite valuable. So while you're leaning toward a single-sailed rig, keep the mizzen option in the back of your mind. It could turn out to be well worth the trouble of dealing with two sails.

Rudder - In case I ever get around to building myself a sail rig for it, I ditched the aluminum rudder blade for our big double kayak and carved a new, longer one from a hunk of spruce. In terms of light weight and sideways stiffness, it is drastically better than the old aluminum blade was. It's a fairly thick foil shape and I suppose it might create a bit more drag than the original, but I never use it while paddling and wanted something sturdier for sailing. Gee, is that a plastic boat in the picture? You're darned right it is and it's a superb boat!

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/rudder%20001%20copy.jpg

I'm a little more worried about your light sail and the possibility of very flexible spars. Since the presumed idea here is to venture into sailing angles other than just downwind, sailcloth stability starts to be more and more important. I can't say much more without seeing the cloth, but keep in mind that light and soft fabrics often make very good wind-catching bags, but not particularly great airfoils. Their draft tends to wander around and where it happens to be located and how much of it is present at any given moment is often rather unpredictable. The more up-wind your course, the more you want a stable foil with a fairly flat, draft-forward shape. This is where the soft fabrics (especially nylon) tend to become a problem. As for the spars, there is a surprising amount of bending force exerted on the yard and boom of even small lugsails. I don't think you are on a clear collision course, but do remember that the more stiffness you can build into the spars the easier it becomes to generate and maintain good, stable sailshape.

Another possibility is always to boost fabric/sailshape stability with full battens. They can also make setting up some sort of quickie, slab reefing system easier. Your sail plan reminded me of the profile of a battened lugsail that I saw on the web once. I don't remember who built it, but I saved the photo because it had such nice proportions and a neat look (cool logo, too).

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/ch%20lug%202.jpg

Anyway, those are my thoughts at this point. I don't think it's a losing cause by any means and I think my highest priority would be seeing whether the leeboard bracket can safely and securely be attached up in the front of the cockpit . If so, then you've cleared the biggest hurdle.

[Ron Paro]

Diamond, Will this kayak always be sailed with two crewmembers? Are you planning to have a leeboard on both sides, or just one? Since the outrigger floats (amas), are supposed to keep you level, then having the leeboard only on one side should work. What are you planning to use for the outrigger arms (akas)? I had a thought that you may be able to have a beam which runs alongside the hull, between the akas that you could temporarily clamp the leeboard to and find the optimal position.

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Todd,

My wish has been granted.

Your posting has blown me away! Many many thanks. Your thoughts are very encouraging.

I really like the battened sail. I think it would make the kayak look pretty stylish and introduce some structure to the sail. If the sail proves to be too lightweight I'll just have to get the needles out and stitch up another in better material!

Funnily enough the position you mentioned for the leeboards was where I was intending to put them, as it is quite a strong moulding just there (plus I couldn't see where else they could comfortably go). Also your comments about manipulating them from the cockpit are very helpful. I will be sort of held in the boat anyway by the bungees holding the paddles in place but can slip out through the spray deck if things get really dodgy, and there is room for the leeboards to be mounted just in front of this area. I will try to make it adjustable so we can change things around a bit. Do you think the shallow draft leeboards are a viable idea for this project?

We will have to assess the drag of the outriggers in practice. At the moment I only know we are not able to tip the boat with it all in place. We can even push the paddles further out to one side to gain more width and stability in that direction. One of our main intentions with the sail is to be able to at least partially dismantle and stow it for paddling. The addition of a mizzen adds an extra bit of kit to stuff somewhere and another lot of holes to drill in that poor old plastic hull! But, the idea has been eating away at me and I think we will eventually have a go with it after we have tried just a single sail. I'm sure we are going to have to go through a few prototype test scenarios in some non-threatening wind conditions to assess the performance and take it step by step. We are not necessarily after super performance, just the possibility of extending our range and doing something different for a while when the paddling gets a bit tiring.

I like the look of your rudder replacement. It is a very similar mechanism to ours which can also pivot onto the rear deck if we want it out of the way. It looks rather nice as well. Your attention to detail in everything you approach has really impressed us.

Your comment on the rigidity of the spars has made me think. What I'm after is something very light like aluminium which can be dismantled easily on the water but that won't fold up under pressure, but is cheap and possibly has another function in an old life (i.e. recycled) The windsurf boom seemed to fit the bill but then I thought should there be at least some give in it. That's where I leaned toward the plastic conduit idea. Now I'm not so sure. Further thinking required on that one.

I would just like to say thanks again for your reply, and I'll let you know how we get on in the next stages. There's nothing like mucking a few things up for a thorough learning experience! We do like our plastic kayak by the way. We've had a lot of lovely experiences to remember out on the water in it. I must admit that it cannot possibly compete on good looks with a traditional wooden counterpart. Best wishes, Carole.

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Ron,
Always with two crewmembers. We will have a leeboard on both sides as swapping one around could be tedious in our enclosed and restricted cockpit. We are using the kayak paddles as the outrigger arms straddling the cockpit centrally and held in place tightly with bungee cord. I have made some inflatable floats which slip over the end of the paddle blades and held with velcro straps on the handles. I intend to add a connecting foam float so it becomes a complete outrigger but it works quite well without this at the moment. We may be able to make a quick clamping strut to do the job you mention and make a temporary sliding leeboard for testing. It's a very good idea. Thanks for that. P.S. I'll have to try and set up a picture of the way it looks when I next go to where the kayak is stored. I'm signing off now, satiated with new knowledge!!

[Todd Bradshaw]

The shallow-draft leeboard was originally an idea for gunk-holing and other thin-water applications at fairly low speeds. Longer, skinnier boards are generally more efficient and more tunable with changes in their rake angles, but they don't do much good if they're dragging the bottom. Likewise, the shallow draft boards lose efficiency pretty quickly if the canoe is heeling over with one out of the water and the other barely extending past the hull bottom.

In this case, the outriggers will prevent excessive heeling and the shallow boards will likely work pretty well. My only wonder would be whether you would be making the most of the opportunity to tune the leeboards as you sail. Having a spare set of hands aboard and a crew person sitting right there who can just reach down and adjust the rake angle is a fairly rare luxury for canoe/kayak sailing. If you ever really get into trying to eek every bit of performance out of the boat you'll likely find that the longer leeboards offer more helm-tweeking possibilities. In any case, a set of leeboard blades is a pretty quick and inexpensive project, so you might eventually want to try both types.

As Ron mentioned, this reduction in heel angle would probably also allow you to get by with one leeboard. Indeed, some factory sailing rigs over the years have used just one longer board (even for canoes without outriggers which do heel over) and they simply lengthened the board a bit to make sure it still reached down into the water when sailing with it on the "high side". I built one of those single leeboards from a nice hunk of cherry about 20 years ago and it's somewhere out in my garage. It's about 5' long. It works fine, but it needs a sturdy bracket because that long tip exerts a lot of leverage on the mounting structure.

The shallow-draft leeboards in the book were obviously inspired by the big, petal-shaped leeboards used on Duch sailing craft which I've always loved the look of. Others, like the old Morris Canoe leeboards, which are sort of medium-draft, look more like something used at a pizza place to take the pies out of the oven. I've had a couple people send me photos of their shallow-draft boards, built to the plan in the book. They can be an opportunity to do some really creative woodwork with their fanned-out laminations and the boards seem to work pretty well (of course those who found them lacking may be slowly slipping sideways past Argentina at the moment and unable to write).

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Todd,
The main reason for the shallow leeboards was the fact that we use estuaries quite a lot which means skimming the boat over shallow mudflat areas which are temporarily flooded with the tide. Sometimes we go so shallow that the blades of the paddle pick up the mud in big globs! I wouldn't envisage going quite that shallow when sailing but i also think a long board would be difficult to stow. Two shorter ones we may be able to just lock up out of the way with bungees or something when we need to paddle or I could shove them inside. Because our kayak is very short up front a longer board will interfere with paddling when locked at the side. The taper of the boat may also leave it hanging out at a funny angle. I cannot get anything much beyond 3ft down into the kayak when I am in. My partner has all the rudder foot mechanism in the way so I am the only one who can slide things down the side. I can get fishing rods, landing net, both vee sails, a urine bottle, anchor, inflatable outriggers and a small cool box in the front. My partner has the fishing tackle and bait, dry sack, ropes, lunch box and emergency clothing in front of him and behind his seat is the plastic slot-together kayak trolley. It can be quite crowded in there but it leaves the decks completely clear so the spraydeck can go on cleanly and we stay thoroughly dry and warm.
I think we will have to have a go with some quickie leeboard prototypes once I get the sail part made. I have reserved an English winter of cold dark nights for sailmaking. Then I won't rush it. I intended to sew some webbing into the sail to strengthen all the edges. Rather than rope the sail to the spars, I was going to sleeve it and tie it in fewer places so I can remove the spars for stowage. I was thinking I could use the collapsible tent poles for the battens (they are strong but flexible like bamboo and snap together, held in by elastic up the middle.) The mast is two section made from an old aluminium windsurf mast cut down which has a nice taper. I intend for this to sit on the deck with the top part telescoped into the bottom so it isn't too high. Once pushed up to full height from in the cockpit it will be locked with a folding pin. Before raising it I will attach the halyard and sail ready to be hoisted. If we reach land and no longer want to sail we can remove whole thing from the mast step, where it will be held with a locking pin, and stow it. I have to sort the mast step and the problems with the hull angle to get the mast straight and upright. I am going to use some special resin that some builders donated to us when fixing our house subsidence! It is fast setting and very strong. I will need to make some forms to force it into but I should be able to make a shaped step which fits the base of the boat perfectly. I will embed a pipe into it so the mast will slot in. I will also use this resin inside the mast where the pins go to add some more strength and stop the aluminium possibly ovaling around the drilled holes.

Anyway, I have to go to work now so I'll try and add more later!
I'm having difficulty explaining some of my thoughts so they can be easily understood. All the best, Carole

[DiamondBullet]

Dear All,

I've modified the sail design to the nice one Todd put up and here's the url: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/caroledesign/sail/Kiwi_sail_battened.pdf

[Todd Bradshaw]

Double check your CE calculating method. You're dividing the four-sided sail into two triangles, then finding the centers of each triangle and marking it. So far, so good. Then you're drawing a line connecting these two points and the combined CE for the entire sail will lie somewhere along that line - you're still doing fine.

The next step is where you're making the mistake. I calculate that the smaller of the two triangles has an area thats about 29.1% of the total sail area. This means that the sail's CE will be along that line, 21.9% of the line's length from the BIG triangle's center, not the little one's (which is where your mark is). There is more area in the big triangle, so the sail's CE will be shifted more toward the big triangle's center.

If you're using the method where you draw the small perpendiculars from the connecting line at each center, then adjust their lengths to reflect the area of the triangle they represent and then connect their outboard ends with another small line (which just happens to intersect the original line at the combined CE) you need to switch the perp lines. The little one goes on the big triangle and the big one goes on the little triangle. It's one of those things that is easy to mix-up and I have to constantly double-check it it make sure I haven't screwed it up when I do it, so don't feel bad.

Somebody unfamiliar with this method is likely wondering what the hell I'm talking about, but I think you'll understand it immediately. This does, however create a bit of a problem. When corrected, the sail's true CE is right where you plan to be sitting! How do you feel about sitting on the leeboard bracket???.....

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/!GA-LAYE%20copy.jpg

Fear not! One way or the other we'll figure this thing out, but it looks like it's back to the drawing board for now.

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Todd,

It's funny, but when I replaced the original sail with the battened one, I knew something looked wrong but it didn't notice so much on the first drawing. I'm a bit embarrased but can live with it! At least my calculations put the sail within the 15% area. I think the leeboard won't be too much of a problem here as we can make some sort of framework. I'm sure I have seen one on the web somewhere but cannot find it. The anchor trolley I have along the side here may interfere a bit but that can easily be sorted. We'll still use the experimental idea mentioned earlier to find the best position. I'm actually pleased the centre is further back. I hadn't taken the roach of the sail into account on the calculations. I just bunged the new sail design over the top of the other one. Do you think the tent poles will make suitable battens (see posting above) and will sleeving the spars work? I am changing the outrigger design to make it more streamlined. This involves the use of inexpensive kitchen items! When I have finished this I will post an image. I am trying to source a piece of aluminium tubing in a thick gauge which will fit exactly my spirit vee sail mount, as I want to make the mast step suitable for both sails so I can interchange. My partner had an idea about making a sort of rudder-type swivel control for the vee sail so I can turn it quickly in or out of the wind. I can do this using a tube in the mast step that won't be locked in place like the proper sail mast will. We are going to fit some brackets with control lines on. You may be thinking, all this talk and no action! We will get this done and it will be posted. I just like to iron out the problems so we don't ruin the boat by being hasty! Sometimes I think our little kayak is going to sink with the amount of extra hardware we bolt on, but it still sits there floating happily! Wish I was in it now.

I looked at your book again and saw the battened lug sail in there. I was so focused on the standard lug sail that I had discounted it. I think the one above will look very good, a bit more stitching maybe, but the stronger for it.

Thank you Todd for taking the time to study my drawings and put me straight. You really are the man!! Top notch!

[Todd Bradshaw]

Looking at the current drawing, I'd be tempted to leave the board bracket where we originally thought about putting it (cockpit front end) and move the sail itself forward a bit on the mast by moving the lash point on the yard and the connection at the boom/mast junction (whatever it will be) aft a little bit on their spars. If you look at the drawing that I posted above, I think the mast intersection could be nearly as far aft on the yard and boom as the spots where the dotted line hits them on that drawing. You do want the yard to be tail-heavy as you raise it, but it's not uncommon on a lugsail to lash the halyard as much as 40%-45% of the yard's length aft of it's heel.

You may still have the leeboards and possibly the boat's actual working CLP a bit forward of the CE but I suspect that it will be within the allowable fudge factor. Remember that all these CE/CLP formulas and calculations are helpful design tools, but they're not laws set in stone. Part of the time when you're actually out sailing, a boat's CE and CLP may line up almost perfectly with the plan on paper, but much of the time they will be very different - but the boat still sails. On the water there are a lot of different factors affecting the relationship between the true CE and true CLP, many of which don't show up on paper (even things like the sailor's own tendencies when it comes to steering or trimming the sheets, or the way the boat's hull responds to cross-winds, etc.) We don't have hundreds of dollars tied up in precicely-positioned lead ballast and most of our systems have some adjustability if needed, so start in the ballpark and see what happens during the sea trials?

I didn't figure the roach in either, but generally don't unless it's a really big one. On some points of sail, a large roach can be a factor that may affect the boat's handling and balance, but this one is pretty moderate and I'm not worried about it throwing our calculations off.

Some of the hollow, shock-corded fiberglass tent poles That I used to sell when I was in the backpacking business would probably make pretty decent battens. I don't anticipate any problems using them and sleeves work fine for the spar attachment. I'd probably leave an opening maybe 12" long where the halyard tie point and boom-to-mast attachments are to allow a bit of adjustability.

Things worth investigating:

Go to the Balogh Sail website and check out the "Twins" sail. Either it hadn't been developed when I wrote the book or I just had never seen it, but it is without a doubt the best downwind sail available for canoes and kayaks and drastically better than the V-sail. I watched a Klepper make a two-mile island crossing on Lake Superior on a nasty, windy day a couple years ago and was amazed at the control they had. I don't build them to sell as it's someone else's (probably patented) idea, but anybody messing with design ideas for building their own downwind canoe/kayak sails should take a good look at them.

http://www.baloghsaildesigns.com/pro.html

It's also worth checking out Gary Dierking's outrigger pages, as there is plenty of good information there, including a great, step-by-step article explaining how to build foam/fiberglass outrigger floats (amas). Gary also has a book coming out (check Amazon, etc.) on outriggers that will fill a big hole in our book collections. Whether you sail a traditional outrigger or a modern home-built, this book should be well worth having. The website is:

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/garyd/

And don't be afraid to investigate wood for the mast and spars if you can't find tubing that does the job. A one-armed man with a 2x4, a cheap spokeshave and a couple free hours can make a pretty decent canoe spar - even if it's done purely by eye. You set the spokeshave to take small bites, keep rotating the stock as you work and basically cut away anything that doesn't look like a spar. If you're up for it, methods like the birdsmouth technique make great spars and people seem to really have fun making them.

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Todd,

Thanks for your reassuring response. I think that really I have not only had a lot of my worries answered, but much more as well. I think we are going to have fun when we get this thing out on the water, and I'm sure any onlookers will have equal fun watching us! I'll definitely go onto the two sites you suggested to have a look. Your comments on the sail position will give us a lot of adjustments which we should be able to factor out any problems with in combination with an experimental leeboard. The true test will be in practice. I don't have a problem with a wood spar, I just don't know how to make it so it will come in half for stowage and still keep its strength where it joins. I suppose I could have it forced into some tubing somehow, but locking it without making holes is a problem as it could create a weak point.

I think I may be at a point where I can draft the sail properly for construction. I'll leave the extra space you suggest between the sleeves. I'm going to have to get some more tent poles before the sale ends (they were cheap as it is end of season).

I have to do family things over the next two evenings so I won't be online, but many many thanks again for another comprehensive posting.

[DiamondBullet]

Addition to the last posting, I've re-read all the postings more thoroughly and think I will do many of the things suggested. I'll make two types of leeboard as prototypes. I'll put the sail further forward as suggested so the leeboard bracket can be at the front of the cockpit like the Aerius. I'm now thinking I may have cut the mast too short to allow for the sail to move forward (I did cut it longer in case but I'll have to re-measure). Would this mean the boom will be hitting me on the head? If this is the case I will have to build an extension into the deck plate to extend the mast higher. Does it matter if the yard is hauled very close to the masthead?

I've ordered some webbing ready to get started, and I am going to create a more accurate sail drawing to use as a template, which I will post so you can give your opinion. Also, if you can suggest any solutions to my wooden spar joining problem I will have a go at making one. The reason for using the windsurf boom is the adjustable ones have sliding tubes which lock using twist threads. If I use only the straight bits I should end up with two thicker outer sections and a thinner middle bit which slides into the other two parts. As they are built strongly I hoped this would be substantial enough even at the joins. I can pick up fairly cheap booms secondhand.

I've had a look at the two sites you recommended. The downwind sail is really curious. I cannot figure out how it attaches to the mast, is it just roped? I couldn't find any photographs to see the detailing. The vee sail I have (Spirit sail) is a hands-free sail, and it works extremely well, but I have issues with the mounting bracket. I've been caught in a couple of gusty/tidal situations where I haven't been able to release the pressure on the pivot to turn it, resulting recently in a broken pin and a lot of swearing! This is why I want to develop a turning mechanism below deck. I also made the smaller sail to cope with higher winds. Sometimes the wind has been too strong to spill out of the big one, and the hull of the kayak has been deforming. (We've since strengthened the area). The kayak goes like a rocket in such situations!! I like the taper at the top as our vee sail has a habit of catching on any trees overhanging when we are on rivers/canals because it is so broad at the top.

I have to go now. Catch up later!

[Todd Bradshaw]

Those folks who know me well know that I am a low-boom freak. It probably comes from the days when I sailed my Starboat. The boom was about 15' long and about the diameter of a Hobie Cat mast. When sitting on deck with your feet down inside the boat it was just a bit above waist high and if you failed to get out of it's way during a tack or jibe, you ran a good chance of being cut in half. You learned to deal with it and after spending a couple of years sailing Stars, you aren't the least bit intimidated by dinghy or canoe booms - at any altitude.

There are generally far more good reasons to have a low boom on a sailing canoe or small dinghy than a high one - the primary one being keeping the sail's CE fairly low in relation to your rather narrow, unballasted hull. This does mean, however, that you must learn to avoid the boom when tacking and jibing. The rest of the time it will be outboard enough to be clear of the sailor(s). I've always dealt with this by simply waiting until that brief instant during the turn when the wind pressure on the sail drops and then just grabbing the boom and passing it over my head to the other side (see page 22 of my book). By doing this, you can learn to tack and jibe much faster and smoother than those folks who turn the rudder and then duck down and wait for the boom to cross on it's own.

So from a functional/performance standpoint, I don't see a problem with lowering the boom on your boat, or at least trying it that way before trying to lengthen the mast just for head clearance. The biggest drawback that I can see to the lower position is that the view from the bow seat may be pretty boring and it's possible that your visibility ahead may not be too good. Since you will have outriggers on this boat, a somewhat higher CE isn't a big deal in terms of stability if you do decide to hang the boom up high, but I'd probably make my first efforts with the parts you already have and see how they work. The yard can be right up at the masthead if needed and should work fine there.

Sectional wooden spars would, I assume, have to use some sort of ferrule-equipped joint (brass tube, fiberglass tube, etc) just as sectional kayak paddles do. Some jointed paddles work very well and others are awful, so I think it will depend mostly on what you can come up with for the ferrules. If it starts to look like pre-made tubing of some sort will work better and be easier to join securely, I see no problem in using it.

As far as I know, the "Twins" sail has some sort of sleeve down the middle which just slides over the mast. The advantage to this type of sail is that you can instantly turn it on (by pulling aft on the sheet-bridle) or off by easing the bridle until it weather-vanes and depowers. By sheeting in partway on the bridle, you can generate partial power and by moving the hand controlling the bridle side-to-side, you can swivel the sail a bit and adjust it's angle to the wind. There aren't many (if any) other types of downwind sails where in a bad gust all you need to do is let go and the sail shuts off and just sits there calmly until you want to use it again.

[DiamondBullet]

We'll give it a go with the boom as you suggest. I'm not quite as flexible as I used to be but I'm sure I can get out of the way of it as long as I'm concentrating! I've had a bit of a eureka moment on the interchangeable mast/vee sail. I have been trying to figure a removeable pole which sits in the same mast foot so I can either insert the main mast or the vee sail mounting. It was becoming stupidly complicated and required a lot of engineering/machining because I got stuck on the idea of using the vee sail mount I presently have. I suddenly realised that I don't need an interchangeable mast step set up. I'll use the telescoped down mast as a central point to attach the vee sail to. Then when I have finished the lug sail I will have a go at a twins type sail still using the same mast. I'm sure it will work. I'm reworking the plans at the moment with the sail moved forward and some added leeboards but haven't finished them yet. I keep changing things and life keeps interfering!! I feel like I'm getting this more refined and do-able. We've also decided to make the mast hinged so it can either fold down onto the deck pointing forward or I can pull it back to extend it and attach the sail at the halyard. We are sure we can do it using two locking pins in the base. My partner Jeremy also thinks we can use the vee sail mount to make a small mizzen at some point. We are also thinking we may stow the compacted sail on the deck under bungees on the opposite side to the anchor trolley, or actually on the folded down mast, in a sail bag. I have also changed the outrigger design again!! We are off to a very big machinery jumble next week when I hope to source some of the bits we need. The list is growing! I'll have a look for some ferrule material at the jumble or maybe something else will do the job, you never know what will be there. I've been reading up on making the sail. Do you think I need to factor in draft for this sail? Thanks once more.

[Todd Bradshaw]

The lug is so short on the luff that the conventional method of incorporating luff round in to create draft probably won't work very well. Option #1 would be to cut the sail flat like a Chinese junk sail (which is probably the closest thing to what we seem to be drawing) and just let the wind put the shape into it. Option #2 would be to add a little bit of round to the head and foot edges (maybe 1" or so on the head and about 1.5"-2" on the foot with their maximum depths about 45% of the way aft of the luff). This will create a bit of draft and might help handle the bend you're likely to get in the yard and boom a bit better. It's a tough call at this point since we don't know much about the flex characteristics of those spars yet. The kite fabric is also less stable than Dacron, so I wouldn't go nuts adding large amounts of draft because the cloth is likely to create some draft all by itself with no help.

[DiamondBullet]

The spars seem to be my next sticking point. I have one windsurf boom lined up which I should get fairly cheap but the person I am getting it from has been taken into hospital (thankfully not serious)! If I did add in the draft at these points, would I need to add in a slight curve to the lower batten for reefing or wouldn't that matter when we are talking about such small amounts? Is it worth having this small sail reefable? I haven't looked at slab reefing properly yet. How would you see it working on this sail? I have a lot of heavy duty velcro. Could you see this being used to reef the sail instead of having lots of ties? I know none of this is very traditional, but neither is the kayak. I do like to use recycled materials wherever possible though. I'm hopefully going to be able to have a further look at my drawings tonight. Best regards.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Whether to add a reef or not depends upon what type of weather you plan to sail in and the possibilities of having to sail in rough conditions. This type of fully-battened lug does, however, lend itself well to batten reefing where you pull down a section and shorten the sail. Reefing needs to be done from the luff and leech corners of the reef line, which are reinforced to handle the stress. The patches between them are mostly just to keep the bundled section orderly. Since we're looking at modest sail area, fairly shallow draft and fairly low fabric stability you can leave the lower batten and it's pocket straight and two or three ties across the middle are probably plenty. Velcro might work, although it loses half it's grip as soon as it gets wet and a few simple ties might be more dependable and no more trouble to put in. If you have access to grommet setters it makes life easier for installing such stuff, but there are other ways to install an eyelet or some form of reinforced hole if you don't.

My mental picture of how I would probably do this sail at this point looks something like this:

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/YAKLUG%20copy.jpg

Four panels with the weave oriented to roughly follow the shape (kind of a lug-radial, see the arrows on the drawing). The batten pockets are formed by making 1.5"-2" wide panel-to-panel overlap seams and sliding the battens inside the seams. Sleeves are sewn-on for the yard and boom. The forward ends of the sleeves and pockets are sewn closed, aft ends open. Small reinforcing patches are added at the four corners and the reef tack and clew. Grommets and ties form the yard and boom outhauls at the peak and clew corners. Grommets at the tack corner, reef tack and reef clew are added, along with a few small ones for the middle of the reef line. There are various ways to handle reefing, but there aren't many as simple as just pulling the first panel down and tying the reef tack grommet to the regular tack grommet, tying the reef clew grommet to the regular clew grommet and tying two or three square knots along the boom on the smaller ties. If grommets and a setter are not available, all of these ties could be replaced with ties sewn through the sail by hand.

If someone ordered this sail, about the only change I would probably make would be to eliminate the sleeves and use regular corner grommets and small lacing grommets along the head and foot. Sleeves can work very well, but on an experimental, one-off installation like this project they tend to limit the amount of room available for adjustment at the mast/boom and mast/yard junctions and mainsheet blocks need to be attached through cutouts in the sleeve.

...unless of course they wanted "traditional" - which is what I'm probably best known for, in which case, it would look pretty much like this with outside double battens and fancy paneling.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/DC%20copy.jpg

This doesn't sail any better than the first one and it takes at least twice as long to build, but it's a nice look and I really like the "bones" look of the external battens. This type of sail really isn't any more difficult to build than the four-panel job. It's more just a matter of how much of your time you're interested in investing in it's construction to wind up with a different look. This one is one of my favorites. The customer wanted to do something outrageous with his aluminum canoe, so he polished it to a mirror finish and ordered a pair of very fancy Chinese lugsails for it.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20photos/Chinese%20Lugsails%20copy.jpg

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Todd,

You really are excellent in Illustrator. I must thank you for the time you have taken over these drawings when you must be very busy. I can really see the first sail on the kayak. I do have a grommet fixer and grommets from my leatherworking days. The second sail is beautiful and maybe when I get this one sorted I will be ready to invest the time in making something closer to the second one. You may be screaming inside your head when I tell you the colour this sail will be... flourescent yellow!! I know, I know! Very garish! It just happens to be what I have. I also have flourescent pink, but pink and red (the kayak colour) I felt was really too much. Now you know why I didn't post a photograph of the fabric or the kayak at the earlier stages. You may have not wanted to pursue it (wouldn't have blamed you). At least people will see us coming. We've had occasions where they haven't. Thing is, if I can get this thing working with these cheap materials it will be inevitable that I will gradually evolve the looks. A lovely creamy coloured Dacron would look rather nice along with brass rather than aluminium or stainless fittings. How heavy is Dacron for stowing? Does it come in different thicknesses? I wouldn't know where to get it from in the UK or if it is called Dacron over here.

You don't mind me cribbing your sail drawing for my plans do you?

I'm supposed to be working at the moment but couldn't resist this reply!! I had better get on with things now... regards, Carole

[Todd Bradshaw]

Almost everything I build these days is either Egyptian (cream color) Dacron or Tanbark (brown) because the sails are going on old or traditionally-styled boats, but once in a while I do get to make something in brighter colors and don't mind them at all. I've also seen some really neat looking applications of unusual sail colors for old canoes and dinghies (like a pair of bright red sails, or green, blue or even black) which may not be particularly historically accurate, but which look so good that nobody cares. I did a striped lateen for a Sunfish once that was a mixture of Egyptian Cream and powder blue and actually quite elegant. Our own old Sunfish has a tri-radial lateen that's lime green and hot pink on black, a combination that I used to use on most of the spinnakers, drifters and other specialty sails for our own boats. Other sailors could tell that it was us coming at them from a couple miles away with those big glowing pink and green stars.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20photos/radial%20lateen.jpg
note the low boom....

I can be a purist when I need to be, but the rest of the time, the sky's the limit. The only thing I really hate is making a plain, white sail! I find it incredibly boring as there isn't much to look forward to seeing when it's done. The value of being visible out on the water in a small, low boat is also not to be under-rated.

Dacron is Dupont's trade name for their polyester fiber. Over there, it is often called Terelene. The lightest common weight is "four-ounce" (actually ranging from 3.8 oz. to 4.3 oz. depending on which brand it is) and it's suitable for most dinghy sails up to around 75-85 sq. ft. It will be stiffer than nylon, but isn't particularly bulky. The cream and Tanbark 4 oz. fabrics that I usually use are actually made in the UK by Richard Hayward & Company, a division of John Heathcoat & Co. Limited, Tiverton, Devon EX16 5LL, England. They cost more than the other brands, but in my opinion, they're the best traditional-looking sail fabrics on the planet.

http://www.heathcoat.co.uk

[DiamondBullet]

You've done it again! Answered all my questions and some. I like all the sails you have made. All very stylish and well thought out. I just hope I can do justice to all the effort you have put in on my behalf. It is quite good having the responsibility of doing having to do it properly, because then I will have no excuses for cutting corners. I hope my hand stitching cuts the mustard. I don't have a sewing machine but quite enjoy doing it by hand. It is a sort of meditation.

You really must be quite fit to curl your way under that low boom on a regular basis. I also like the aluminium canoe a lot. That would really turn heads. Was it made by the client or was it a production model? Was the leeboard painted wood or aluminium as well? I'll go have a look at that web site now.

[Todd Bradshaw]

I really don't have to duck very much. It's about half ducking and half waiting for the right moment and lifting the boom over your head just as the sail luffs on it's way over to the other side. The other handy component is trimming the slack out of the mainsheet as the boom comes in and easing it out after it goes by. This helps eliminate the droop in the sheet, keeping it from fouling, snagging on your PFD. etc. - especially on systems where the sheet runs along the underside of the boom. With some practice, you can learn to tack or jibe quickly and always in control this way and you never have to worry about getting hit in the head.

The aluminum canoe was a stock model and I'm pretty sure he made the boards from wood. I have no clue what he used to polish the hull like that, but love the way it reflects the desert landscape around it. The photo was from the first outing. The rudder hadn't been finished yet, but he said that they really didn't have much trouble steering via sail trim alone.

If I ever get filthy rich (don't hold your breath) I'm going to sponsor a "Strange Boat Regatta" and fly-in all my former customers and their various contraptions. Seeing what these folks come up with is truly the most fun part of my job and a lot of these home-brewed adaptations actually work quite well. There is a folder in my web closet labeled "Sail Photos" that has pictures of some of them in action and an assortment of other miscellaneous stuff in case you need inspiration.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/

[DiamondBullet]

I'm going to have to actually experience the boom swing to really know what you are saying. Having had no real experience of 'proper' sailing it is hard to imagine the forces that may be involved. My sister has done 'proper' sailing, but on large expensive yachts on the lakes around Michegan so she doesn't physically interact with the sail so much. I'm sure we'll get the hang of it though.

It would be nice to hold such a regatta. But who wants to be filthy rich anyway. It's unhealthy! You can add a picture of our kayak to your folder when its done, after all you have pretty much designed the sail.

I had a look at the Heathcote web site. Looks like it may be expensive! I'll have to really make sure I get it right on the prototype before ruining some decent sailcloth!

I'm hoping the weather will be good for the jumble. It is called 'Old Sodbury's Vintage Sortout' and it has loads of junk, not just vintage bits. A lot of tractor stuff which we also find uses for and useful bits of metal. It takes a whole day to go round so we will be knackered. When we get back I'll really be able to get started as I should be able to source a lot of components there.

The sail photos are very interesting. One more thing. I want to trace off your sail from the previous posting, but the jpeg is quite rough when enlarged. Would it be possible to put up a higher res version or even the eps or ai? I will understand if you don't want to do this.

Best regards.

[Todd Bradshaw]

How about a PDF? That way you can zoom-in when needed to see details. The Big Box-O-Rigs in the old Power Mac that I do my drawing on probably contains better than 100 measured building plans for canoe and dinghy sails. The plan I drew for this one was a twin rig that had a mizzen around 29 sq. ft. if you include the roach. You would need to add the sleeves, but that's easy. If you choose to add some round along the head and foot, you will also need to draw them in, but that's also quite easy after the main, straight-line perimeter is lofted out. Just add a point slightly outside the perimeter where you want the maximum round to be and bend a batten from the existing corners around the new point. I do all my shaping by eye on the floor, so I don't usually measure or write down those changes to the basic dimensional plans.

There are measured, red reference lines shown where the battens go. Remember that your 2" wide panel seam/batten pockets need to straddle those lines, so the lower fabric panel at each seam will extend 1" above the line and the upper panel will need to extend 1" below the line to create the proper overlap and the hollow pocket. Measurements are in feet and inches as I am metrically challenged. Don't forget to leave some excess on the leech edge for the leech hem when you cut the panels.

And yes, Hayward fabric is expensive. I don't know what it runs over there, but I'm currently paying about $12.50 per square yard wholesale price for 4 oz. cloth by the time I get it here from the US distributor. Depending how much retailers mark it up, it could get pretty pricey, but it has the nicest finish and the best UV absorbers of any of the Egyptian or Tanbark Dacrons. The Hayward Tanbark color is also much richer and much less plastic-looking than the other brands of Tanbark. If I couldn't get it, I wouldn't even offer Tanbark colored sails.

Here is the PDF you can download for the sailplan. Remember that you can always reduce it's area if needed by multiplying all the linear dimensions by a percentage, but to figure the new sail area, you multiply the square footage figure twice by that percentage. Example: a 29 sq. ft. sail built to 95% of the linear dimensions shown on the drawing would yield 26.17 sq. ft. (29 x 95% x 95% =26.17) because you're reducing it's area in two dimensions.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20photos/!CHINESE.PDF

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Todd,

I was about to say a pdf would be fine, as I can open it in Illustrator as vectors, and you have pre-empted me. It opens lovely. It is so close to the one on my drawing I thought it would be pretty much perfect. I'll see how it looks on the kayak drawing and as it is to scale can figure out all the dimensions as a metric equivalent (I was a bit Imperially challenged figuring the square footage from metric!). I'll allow the extra for the seams. I may even create some panels out of an old cotton sheet and roughly tack it all together to check it is right first, then unpick it all and use the panels as templates (which I can use again if I make another sail out of better material).

I'd probably have to pay retail price for the small amount of sailcloth I would order from Hayward. I may garner the courage to phone them one day and ask the price. I have to get up the enthusiasm by successfully creating a sail before I ask as, by then, I may feel flushed enough to fork out for one. I think just one successful run on the water and we may be completely hooked! Another addiction to add to the list!

All the best, Carole.

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Todd,

I've sat and redrawn the sail and coloured it up a bit (the yellow is nowhere near as flourescent as reality), but my eyes are tiring (been on computer all day working). I haven't finished the leeboards yet but they will come along in the next installment! Have a look at it on
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/caroledesign/sail/Kiwi_sail_coloured_up.pdf

[DiamondBullet]

I have put up a further adjusted drawing with the sail moved forward and the leeboards on. View from above shows mast collapsed and folded forward and the leeboards stored on the back deck with a central pin and bungee (This will need rubber threaded through so the paddle can flip round onto it) holding them on. The mast will be held down by bungee but I need to find out my reach point so I can attach/detach it while in the kayak. I have yet to measure the paddles (outriggers in this case). When I do I will add them to the drawings to enlighten you as to how they perform. Does this look more like it to you? Take a look on http://homepage.ntlworld.com/caroledesign/sail/kiwi_sail_coloured_up2.pdf

[Todd Bradshaw]

Edit: cross-posted as you put up the latest one - the halyard attachment is too far aft on the yard. The first one looked better. Look at your first drawing and read this and it should make sense. I'm going to bed.


I like it. I think the CE/CLP relationship will be tolerable, even if it's not perfect on paper and I kind of like the color. I would "re-tie" the downhaul line to a spot on the boom which is forward of the mast, rather than behind it. At one point I flipped the mast image on the original plan and I meant to change it on the drawing and forgot to do so. It does, however give us a reason to go over an important point about lugsails and how they use gravity to generate good luff tension on a luff that's not attached to a spar and which in fact, is hanging out in space ahead of the mast.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20photos/RINGS%20copy.jpg

Let's say that we wanted to hang up a brass ring on a piece of string. We tie the string on and the ring will hang like we see it in drawing "A". If we shift the tie-off point to one side, as shown in drawing "B" we have created an unstable situation generating rotational force "X" and the ring will rotate clockwise until it again looks like drawing "A". If for some reason we really wanted the ring to stay in position "B" we would need to add an additional force to counteract "X" and one way to do it would be to add a downhaul as shown in "C" and apply enough pull on it (Z) to hold the ring in this unnatural position.

This is what's happening when we peak-up a lugsail. Since there is more of the yard extending aft of the halyard tie off point than there is ahead of it, the yard is tail heavy as you hoist the sail. Gravity is trying to drop the peak and rotate the entire sail about the halyard tie-off point. If the halyard was the only connection to the rig, the sail would hang something like drawing "D". The peak would drop, as would the tail of the boom, the boom would move forward and the tack and throat corners would move upward. It's just like force "X" rotating the ring in drawing "B". So we add a downhaul, as shown in drawing "E" to counter the rotation. This tension (red arrow) pulling against all the rotational forces (blue arrows) peaks-up the yard nicely, lifts the boom's tail end so that it's not dragging on the deck, keeps the boom from sliding forward at the mast and generates the all-important luff tension that our sail needs to perform well.

A lugsail needs these conflicting forces to work properly. If, for example, you tie the halyard too far aft on the yard (losing it's tail-heavy nature) or design a sail with the peak (head) angle too steep you start to lose blue arrows and as an eventual result, your luff tension. You may also find that the yard's angle isn't stable. The mainsheet tension while sailing will help boost the rotational force, but every time you ease the sheet the yard may try to stand vertical.

So it's been the long-winded way to say it, but if you move the downhaul lashing to a position on the boom, forward of the mast as shown in "E", it lines up better with the job it will need to do - pulling down on the luff and slightly aft on the boom. The first time you raise a lugsail, even a fairly small one, you will likely be surprised at how hard you have to pull on the halyard to get the sail raised and peaked-up. This is actually good. It means that you are creating good rotational force and can then counter it with a goodly amount of downhaul tension and generate good luff tension in the process.

In your drawing, the mainsheet going forward, all the way out to the tack corner is unusual, but may actually work to your advantage. Mainsheet tension, as stated, increases rotational force and your forward-leading sheet angle at the tack may also help increase downhaul tension and luff tension as mainsheet tension increases. I haven't seen it before and haven't tried it, but it's a very interesting idea. By putting the blocks at the ends of the boom, you're also avoiding a situation where sheet tension is bending the boom and pulling the draft out of the sail - which is often a problem on small boats with mid-boom sheeting and light booms.

I have a couple of other little rigging detail drawings that I need to hunt up which may be helpful. At one point I started writing another book on small boat lugsails and did some of the drawings, but haven't summoned the energy to do much more with it. We might as well get some use out of them but it's late and my brain is getting foggy, so I'll find them tomorrow. All in all though, your sailplan is looking quite good.

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Todd,

Yes, I was not really sure of the rigging hence it was all a bit vague due to my lack of experience. Only problem is, with the boom lower and all that rope hanging about I decided to dispense with the central line and the end blocks which you were very positive on. I'm not sure now if that was correct, but I didn't want to get hung up with the line while ducking under. I think the sleeving may get in the way at some points so I may have to have another little think on that. Thank you for the information on the halyard and downhaul line. When I get a moment I will redraw that and see what issues it creates.

I think this project has progressed to another level and I'm really glad I contacted you. I would have made a really second rate job of it without your assistance. Getting it right on paper is so important. Even if we need to make adjustments out on the water the basic bones will be correct.

You will definitely have at least one customer for your small boat lugsails book so you better get on and finish it! I'm finding all this rope and block work extremely interesting but sometimes confusing. I come from a landlocked county with hardly any family or friends who have anything to do with boating pursuits (other than the occasional canal boat holiday and my sister's exploits which I think mainly involved more drinking than sailing) so I am completely green on most topics to do with water pursuits. We've even had to learn fishing!! You guys in the US must be appalled by that! We have a few small lakes around plus rivers and canals but mainly visit the coast to 'stretch our sea legs'. Being a small country it isn't a massive drive, around 100 miles with access to coast to the south, northwest and east equidistant. But this is one of the reasons we use a kayak as we can truck top it easily.

On our fairly frequent visits we rarely see another kayak, let alone one with a sail so we get quite excited when we see one. We meet with more 'sit on top' kayakers nowadays and we recently passed a couple in a canadian canoe looking very relaxed paddling against the tide until we saw they had a small outboard motor!! That caused some ribbing and laughter!

We have had loads of comments on the vee sail, all positive, and mostly accusing us of cheating in a friendly way. Someone recently commented on how it looked so relaxed and good on the water, and he was on an enormous pricey looking yacht. I suppose we are attracted to the simplicity of it all.

I would love to see the rigging drawings. I just like to look at any of your drawings. I don't know how many postings I can put in now before the weekend trip so don't think I am ignoring your postings.

Best regards, Carole

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Todd,

Quickie to say I've adjusted the drawing. I have twisted the sail rather than move it back to try to keep the CE as far forward as possible. It has moved back a bit though and no longer aligns with the leeboards and I will have to duck a little lower still. The halyard now attaches before the halfway mark on the yard. I have repositioned the downhaul. I've also added in some details like the anchor trolley and the rudder on the plan view to help me see the clearances. I have yet to measure and add in the outrigger eyes.

The file is a bit bigger because of the detailing – 884K

Here it is... http://homepage.ntlworld.com/caroledesign/sail/Kiwi_sail_coloured_up3.pdf

[DiamondBullet]

Just had another thought on the forward sheet block. If I put it back in and have the line running from the base of the mast, through the block and back towards me, could I have a grab cleat somewhere to jam the line into, then I would be in control of the tension by just unlocking and relocking the line during tacking. My partner at the back will be in control of the boom line. Does that sound feasible? Would it mean that if we got into trouble we could both release our lines completely to depower the sail?

Don't stay up too late tonight!!

[Todd Bradshaw]

Before I forget - straighten-up your new rudder. I have no clue how the physics or enginnering work, but there is generally a lot less strain on a tall skinny rudder that's straight up and down than there is on one that trails aft at an angle. The steering will be easier and since top-mounted kayak rudder systems often tend to be a bit on the light side for sailing, it will take some of the side-load strain off the mount.

In the most recent two versions, the forward control line (extra mainsheet or whatever it would be called) isn't needed. All you need to control the sail are the halyard, the downhaul at the mast and the mainsheet coming off the back end of the boom. If you get into trouble and let go of the sheet, the sail will spin on the mast. The downhaul and halyard will probably prevent it from weathervaning completely, but by the time they do stop it, it should be quite depowered. Lugs also come down very fast if you uncleat the halyard, so in an emergency (squall line coming, etc.) that's another option.

I still like the first version of the current three best, despite the fact that the CE and leeboards don't line up perfectly. Leeboard position is certainly a huge factor in creating the boat's CLP, but it's not the only one. The hull and stem shapes as well as the boat's in-use fore and aft trim can be major contributors as well. My gut tells me that in the grand scheme of things, the balance of this one will probably still be fine and I like the mast farther forward on the sail and the possibilities with the sheet running along under the boom from blocks at both ends. The line hanging under the boom really isn't a problem once you get used to it and we actually lose comparatively few dinghy and canoe sailors due to "mainsheet strangulation". :)

The other thing that strikes me as a very interesting possibility with the first mainsheet system would be making it a double-ended system. It wouldn't have to be, but it might be more interesting, more educational and more fun (particularly for the bow person) if either person could be the designated sail trimmer. Rather than tie-off the mainsheet at the mast base, I'd stick a fairlead there (a block of wood or plastic with a hole in it) and then stick a cleat like a Clamcleat on the leeboard bracket behind it. At the aft end of the boom, I'd come down to a block and another cleat on the thwart. It would look something like this.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20photos/!DOUBLEE%201.jpg

As you can probably tell, I tend to favor the strange and unusual, but this one seems like an opportunity that could be hard to pass up. The best way to learn to trim sails is to actually do it and get a feel for it and this way both of you could get some experience with it. As long as one end of the system stays cleated, the trimming can be done from the other end. Also keep in mind that nearly all of these little rigging details are pretty easy to rig and cheap to build, change, de-bug, etc. - so you're not stuck with them from day one with no way to change them or try something else just to see how well it might work. It's also quite possible to make changes to the sail design's perimeter shape to adjust the angle of edges in relation to the horizon or even to move sail area and the CE a bit.

Rigging details (from the book that doesn't exist):

Halyard and parrels - There are several ways to rig the halyard up top. The most simple is to bore a hole through the masthead, tie the halyard to the yard and hang the sail up like this.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20photos/!LUG3%20copy.jpg

I have seen them with the mast hole bored fore-and-aft, or bored crosswise as shown, or even at an angle. As far as I can tell on a boat this size they all work fine, so whatever seems to place the halyard cleat down at deck level on the opposite side of the mast in the best place for your system should do fine. This type of simple halyard system is probably the easiest to use if you may want to remove and stow the sail while out on the water.

You may want to try a parrel on the yard (and/or on the boom) to see how they work. They're just small lashing loops which pass around the mast and keep the yard or boom from being blown away from the mast on one tack or when raising or lowering the sail. They can be plain line, or strung with wooden parrel beads which act as little ball bearings (not really needed on a canoe, but they look neat). A parrel would look something like this.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20photos/!LUG1%20copy.jpg

Or...there are ways to rig the halyard itself to form a parrel on the yard. Here is one of them.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20photos/!LUG2%20copy.jpg

You may want to rig a simple parrel on the boom to keep it close to the mast and have no parrel up top. These are all things to experiment with once you get out on the water as part of the fine-tuning process.

Break time's over and my knees have temporarily grown back. I have to go sew about twenty-five panel seams. Luckily, I do have a sewing machine. Otherwise you wouldn't hear from me for about six months....

[DiamondBullet]

All I can say is brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. I think that as long as I make the sleeving so I can move the hitch points around on the yard/boom, then I am pretty much there on the sail, and can adjust it on the day. So now I'm going to my mum tonight begging for old sheets to make templates from! As you say, none of the suggestions are going to be expensive or difficult, so I'm going to go for it on the double ends on the boom sheet with blocks and cleats, then see how it works. I think I may make a wooden mast top with all the gubbins in it that I can drop into the top of the mast on assembly. I'm hoping the weight of the spars and sail will hold it down or I can leash it to the mast. As the mast is aluminium, drilling too many holes in it (especially where it is quite narrow) may weaken it. I also have the option of putting resin in the top with a screw eye for the sheave or a proper wheel pulley, but I have to move my flag up there, so they will have to share the space somehow. I suppose I could have the flag attached to the side. These are all details which will iron out as we come to them. Oh, and by the way on the rudder. Yes, we have been aware of this since we bought it. It was sold to us as a rudder for this kayak. Later I was looking at the Perception site and their rudders are completely different. The problem is the hole to take the rudder fittings is too large and needs sleeving to stop the shaft angling (we may use plastic pipe). I drew the plans from photographs and never got around to straightening it. But it does remind me that we have to sort it. I also am working on (in my mind) a removeable extension, but that's another story!!

Have fun sewing. I bet you have a really nice industrial machine. My experiences with sewing machines in the past have resulted in more time trying to tune the machine than do any sewing. The last machine nearly got slung down the stairs (but we have wooden stairs and I didn't want to dent them!). So now I hand stitch. As it is a 'hobby' I don't really need to rush it (but I do set myself deadlines to keep the momentum). The thought of twenty-five panels is pretty daunting though. Is it for a large boat? And is it in your favourite Tan Dacron? Bye for now. There may be a few days silence, but as Arnie says "I'll be back!"

[Todd Bradshaw]

I hate long-seaming. It's tedious, boring and you're in an uncomfortable position. For some reason, I got a little flurry of late-season orders, so I'm doing several sails at once and trying to be more efficient than the usual "one at a time from start to finish" method that I usually use. Mostly Hayward Egyptian Dacron and one vertical-cut spritsail with 12" wide Egyptian and Tanbark stripes.

I actually do almost all of my sewing with a Sailrite Sailmaker that I bought 27 years ago when I was working on hot air balloons. It's not fancy, but it's replaced the entire top half of a couple balloons over the years, done untold numbers of patches and made hundreds of sails. I sent it in about fifteen years ago to have a couple minor parts replaced, but basically it just keeps going and going. I wish my back and knees had held up as well over 27 years of making sails as the sewing machine has!

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Todd,

I've resurfaced from the land of grease and rust! We had an enjoyable rummage and also stayed at a lovely old guest house which was a working farm (300 years old).

Have you managed to finish the sails yet? Is having a bad back something you get in middle age as everyone including us has this malady as well!? I have one of those irritating knees which locks out if I am kneeling. I have to wear knee pads when gardening so I look like I've just been out skateboarding! Do you have knee pads? As for your sewing machine, we used to have an old treadle type machine which had been converted to electric. It was superb, very simple and did the job. Unfortunately it literally exploded one day. If I had the treadle part I would have converted it back, but that had long gone. Older machines are pretty bullet proof. Our old tractors are a testament to that.

So you have repaired balloons as well! Did you ever get to go up in them? Scares the life out of me but I like to see them. We have a major balloon festival nearby which is a thrilling sight. Balloon repairs are quite tricky I should think.

We managed to get some of the things on our list at the jumble. Some small stainless and brass pulley blocks, some locking pins, parrel beads, brass bolts which can be turned down to make pivots, some aluminium box section for the mast step. But couldn't get the flat plate or larger aluminium section which I was convinced would be there. So I'm going to a local aluminium company for some small offcuts when I get the chance. We will get the cleats and rope from a local chandlers. There is a great boat jumble at Beaulieu in the spring but I want to be done by then. My mum donated shedloads of sheets. Some were unfortunately stretchy nylon but I didn't have the heart to refuse them! I think I have enough cotton ones to make a dummy sail.

I have another updated drawing which I am hoping is nearing the final stages. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/caroleddesign/sail/Kiwi_sail_coloured_up4.pdf

All the best, Carole

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Todd,

Link should be http://homepage.ntlworld.com/caroledesign/sail/Kiwi_sail_coloured_up4.pdf

Sorry!

[Todd Bradshaw]

Still plugging away trying to get the sails done. Luckily, none are rush orders at this point as we took the weekend off and actually went boating for a change of pace. Enjoyed the autumn leaves with warmer than normal temperatures and topped it off with a trip over to the cranberry bogs to replenish our supply.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20photos/khtf%2000x%20copy.jpg

I spent about three years flying a balloon for a living and worked for a balloon repair and inspection service on the side during down time. While certainly not risk-free, it's generally a fairly peaceful experience and worth trying if you even get the opportunity. Part of my job was flying either paid passengers or guests of my employers and it seldom took long for them to settle in and enjoy the ride as the world floated by below.

The sailplan is looking good. I would close up the gaps in the aft portions of the sleeves a bit. You want as much continuous support along the sails edges as possible and should be able to extend the sleeves up until you're 2"-3" from the halyard tie point on the yard and a few inches aft of the mast/boom junction for the boom sleeve. No big deal, but it's probably worth doing.

[DiamondBullet]

The picture just makes you want to be there. How did you manage to tear yourselves away and return? Looks superb. Autumn (Fall) is my favourite time of year. Our trees are turning now as well. We don't have any cranberries in this area (soil not acid enough) but we're picking blackberries and the mushroom season is under way. All our fruit is going into a vermin-proof store but the squirrels got all our walnuts. Today the weather here is foul though. Torrential rain and that greyness that Britain is famous for! Time for some sewing!

I suffer from three things... sea sickness (but I love the sea), fear of flying and vertigo. We went up in the Ashridge monument recently (a tall column with viewing platform). I was OK looking out but then I looked down! I wish I didn't feel like it as I would love to see landscapes from the air. We both enjoy studying aerial photos.

Your career has been (and still is) very unconventional! Good on you.

Would closing up the sleeves prevent us adjusting the sail forward and aft on the mast? I could add in some straps which could be detached if I needed to adjust the sail position. I have started on the templates and already hit a small problem. There is not a room in the house, garage shed or summerhouse which can accommodate the size of this sail! I have managed to get each panel to fit on the living room floor, and have started pinning it together on the bed! I'm going to have to hang it up somewhere to see how it all looks complete, though. The cotton sheet is not the ideal template material, but will have to do. I could have done with thicker material but in a way it replicates the kite fabric. I have decided that to help keep the seams straight I will sew in some tape binding to all the edges not webbed as it could be too easy to ruck or distort when hand sewing. I don't want a crinkley sail!! I'm putting the yard/boom sleeving on last so I can add in your suggestion then, and have decided to incorporate the batten sleeves afterwards as well. Trying to get double overlaps is not straightforward with this thin material as it slips around all over the place. I've put a small draft in as per your previous suggestion. As the thing is pale pink and beige at the moment it is difficult to see how it will look, but I think I am getting there on the shape. The enormity of the sewing is starting to sink in! I don't think I will be up for anything bigger than a kayak sail!! Your position as No.1 sailmaker is secure. I've got a couple of pictures to put up later, but I have to work now. All the best.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Sleeves are sort of a double-edged sword. They can be very clean aerodynamically, provide nice, continuous support along an edge and in some cases also be a nice way to finish off the raw edge of the sail at the same time, but they do limit adjustability because you want the gaps in them to be as small as possible in order to maintain that continuous support. They are at their best when used on designs where the particulars have already been figured out (and/or tested in use) and you know where the various attachments work best. It only takes about a 2" long gap to tie a halyard to the yard and a gap of 6"-8" in length at the mast/boom junction for the connection between the two spars - assuming you know exactly where you want it to be on the yard.

As you can see, for a one-of-a-kind, first effort, they do start to limit your ability to adjust things once you get the boat out on the water and start testing the design. The advantage to a bound edge with lacing grommets or even something like small web loops sewn on every few inches which fit around the spars is that you have plenty of places where you can tie the halyards and other parts without having to leave any over-sized gaps in the support. Perhaps it's time to reconsider sleeves in favor of something that has smaller gaps between the connections and offers the sbility to tie something to the spar at any point along it's length? In any case, the installation of sleeves, grommets or whatever is a late step in the process, so you can think about it for quite a while as you get the other sewing done.

[DiamondBullet]

Yes, I am reconsidering this. I am sort of going toward having webbing straps with a pocketed end, but not sure how tight around the yard/boom these must be. How tight is roping normally? As I intend to use a windsurf boom cut up, this means the joining points will be a wider diameter in places so pushing it through a lot of strapping may test my patience. I think this makes the sleeving difficult as well because I will have to work to the diameter of the widest part so it could be floppy, unless I taper it in some way. Brain is working on this.

I started tacking some panels together last night and am glad I made templates first. I seriously screwed up one panel and will have to add a bit on to make it work (tired and not concentrating) but at least I haven't ruined the real fabric! Now I have tacked over the edges it has a bit more flatness. I got the tent poles delivered yesterday. They are really nice, black with silver ferrules. I'm tempted to expose them in some way.

I've just had another thought, web straps joined along their top edge by another strip of web to keep them equidistant. I could still slip rope through the gaps. I may make a dummy to try this out.

Many thanks again.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Ideally, you want the edge of the sail up close to the spar, but what's more critical is that the distance between the sail and the spar stays similar along the spar's length. The actual edge could be anywhere from 1/8" from the yard and boom to 1" or so and still work fine as long as every loop is similarly-sized. What you don't want is a situation where the spar to sail-edge distance might be a small amount at the ends of the spar and noticably more in the middle (creates excess draft) or the opposite - close in the middle and farther away at the ends (decreases draft from the amount you designed into the sail and were counting on having). This is one of the downfalls of spiral lacing and grommets along sail edges as the lace can tend to migrate in use and even though you originally laced carefully and evenly, the shape of your sail can sometimes change while you sail.

If you can sew a small loop of webbing every 8"-10" or so along the edge, big enough that the yard or boom can pass through fairly easily and position them to keep the sail's edge about 1/2" -3/4" from the spar, you'll be in good shape. If your yard has fatter spots where the tubing joints are, adjust the loop size a little bit to compensate in those areas and maintain the normal sail-to-spar distance along the entire edge.

[Ron Paro]

Carole and Todd,

I just wanted to express my appreciation of your public exchange of ideas regarding the kayak sail and rigging design. The images and descriptions posted by each of you have been very helpful in clarifying many concepts for me. It seems that there are many others following this thread as well., since there are nearly 900 views so far.

Good job! Thanks again - Ron

[DiamondBullet]

Ron – thank you for saying such nice things. I only hope the sail I produce lives up to everyone's expectations! I didn't realise that so many people were keeping an eye on this thread. I have learned so much from Todd's postings and hope that this has benefited many others. It would be lovely to see some more kayaks (and canoes) sailing around with individual designs. I'm not sure when I'll finish this project but you can be sure that I will post up my progress and some images to help others. After all, without this site I wouldn't have progressed so far so quick and now I feel I owe it to other interested members to show how our experiment turns out. Being a complete sailing novice, like most other kayakers, could help someone who has had the idea briefly cross their mind have a go at it. I would be really pleased if that was the case. I do have some madcap ideas at times, but Todd is very good (and unpatronising) in his explanations and reasoning of why they may or may not work, but also very open to different approaches. This makes him a valuable asset for this forum. I can't really explain how indebted I am to him for the unselfish assistance he has given.

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Todd,

Thanks again for your help! That suggestion sounds very workable and I could probably space the loops to avoid the lumpy bits (or do as you say and add/subtract so the distance is the same). I'll have to wait until I source the spar and boom, but that won't stop me progressing on the actual sail for now. I'm posting up a picture of the kayak just before we went out into Poole harbour a month ago. The location is Ridge Marina where, for a small charge, we were allowed to put in and leave our truck parked safely for the day. Everyone was very friendly there. The variety of yachts, boats and catamarans along the Frome river would delight any enthusiast!
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/caroledesign/sail/IMG_4146.JPG

[DiamondBullet]

I've just had time to assemble and put up some images of bits associated with my project. I have actually finished my template made of cotton sheets, but the weather has been too wet and dull to photograph it. I need to hang it up outside so I can get far enough away to take a decent shot. When I have this picture I can compare it with the original drawings to see that it is still proportioned OK. It is a little stretchy but it gives me an idea of the correct angles. Tonight I am clearing the floor of our summerhouse (not really a summerhouse... a workshop which looks like one!) so I can spread out in readiness to cut the real material for the job. I'm hoping to convince Jeremy to lathe some of the brass bolts tonight but he is involved with doing some milling on a Perkins diesel pump for our Ferguson P3 tractor! I've decided I'm going to turn the masthead on my little primitive wood lathe so I'm hunting for a good piece of wood to have a go at it. I'll need wellies and a torch! I hope the images attached aren't too boring. I'm still looking for aluminium but have found a local source to investigate. I also now have two windsurf booms on the way (but our postal service is a bit unreliable at the moment). The postage cost more than the booms! I'm crossing my fingers hoping they'll do the job or I'll have to take up windsurfing. Bye for now.

Link to images:http://homepage.ntlworld.com/caroledesign/sail/Kayak_sail_photos/Kayak_sail_photos.html

[Todd Bradshaw]

Not to throw a wrench into the works, but I'm starting to wonder whether you should adopt a more standard approach to the layout and construction? What I'm getting at would be to forget about patterns and just loft the sail out on the floor with strings, map-tacks and masking tape and then assemble the pieces right on top of the lofting. That's how those of us who don't have the luxury of fancy computer plotters lay out a sail and I actually think it might be easier and more straightforward than what you're planning to do.

I wish I'd thought of this last week as I could have shot a whole series of photos of the entire process, but at the moment I'm done with all the sails and really enjoying a few days of being virtually unemployed. The plan, once taped-out looks something like this, only without the big goofy dog (those of you wondering about those little black hairs stuck in the seams of your sails need look no further). You can lay the cloth over the plan and see through it to the pattern below. Hopefully this photo will work. My ISP has been goofy today as well.


http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20photos/helper%20dog.jpg

I do the drawing and planning on the computer, then lay out the perimeter on the floor with string and pins, use a couple light battens to lay down any curves and then "draw" the whole thing out with tape. Fabric pieces are marked right over the lofting, looking through to the tape below. I actually do all the cutting on a 5" wide, 8' long scrap of light plywood. The cut pieces are then placed back over the lofting and the seams are basted together with double-sided basting tape. Usually, the entire sail is paneled and basted together before any stitching is done. On sails with 3-D shape (draft) the paneled mass is made slightly oversized and then placed back over the lofting and cut to the proper size and shape. After that, it's just a matter of adding all the corner patches, edge tapes, batten pockets and hardware.

Which brings up another point....You could really use a roll or two of seaming tape. It allows you to baste the seams together so that nothing moves or slides while sewing and on your nylon, the tape actually contributes more of the seam's strength than the sewing that follows it will.

A quick search turned up a possible UK source if you need sailmaking supplies and don't have a local sailmaker that will sell them to you. As far as I can tell, they do sell to retail customers.
http://www.sailcloth.co.uk/

Click the "order tab" up top, then on the page that pops up scroll way down to the bottom of the list at left and click on "Venture Tape". The tape I use is 12mm Venture tape and it will literally glue your seams together. Sewing then becomes added reinforcement and the tape will help keep the seams flat and orderly as you sew. Before we had seaming tape, by the way, panels for both Dacron and nylon sails were basted together before sewing using a small, thin bead of clear silicone sealer (bathtub calk). It works, but you have to wait a few hours for it to dry before sewing, where the tape is an instant bond that can be over-sewn immediately.

Anyway, I don't want to throw you off-track, but it might be worth considering the possibility of a more mainstream approach, working directly with the cloth on the lofting, rather that going the pattern route. Something to think about.

[skuthorp]

Todd,
http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/
what a treasure this is! We certainly are fortunate to have you on board. As to self-recovery procedures I've come across inflatable bags intended as some sort of roof rack, hell on the duco I bet! But they are perfect for my requirements. Even considering a compressed air cylinder for inflation. They come with straps, etc enough to attatch them to the boat so next weekend I'll don the wetsuit and try them out! I'll even try one as an outrigger, much less complicated if not as elegant as my original idea.

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Todd,

I'd love to lay the whole thing out flat, but as in a previous posting I don't have any floorspace to do the whole thing, just one panel at a time. I'm trying to clear this shed space but it will still be very tight. I have some masking tape to set out the pattern and now I have all the angles in my head and on template I can get going with your method as well. I have a couple of big pieces of 8 x 4 ply I can lay on the floor outside on the deck, but it has been wet and windy lately and the whole lot is likely to take off across the garden! I still value my template for all its faults as it has sort of got me 'in the mood' for the real sail. As you are a sailmaker it is coursing around your blood all the time. I'm either working on a computer or the land, so sewing is something I have to psyche up to! I have been toying with getting seaming tape but thought it needed ironing on, which would be a bit dodgy with sythetic material. The venture tape doesn't need heat, which is good, but does the adhesive catch on the needle when sewing? The tape on the sailcloth site is cheap but the postage is phenomenal!! I'm not sure about using silicone sealer as I hate the stuff. It gets everywhere and the smell is appalling for the lungs. As kite material is so slippy I think the tape is the best and cleanest option. I just have to try to get it from somewhere with less postage or I may look on the site for some other stuff to make it more economical. What do you mark the sail material with? Is it a pen or some sort of tailor's chalk? And do you tape all the seams and put on the corner patches, then sew, or tape the seams, sew and add the corner patches last? If you have round patches how do you seam the curve without rucking or is it just a cut edge?

By the way, we want to you to send us your big goofy dog to help us with our sail! Does he/she go out on the water with you? A real beauty to enhance your canoe!

Skuthorp - Those roof bags are quite expensive in the UK but I have considered them as well. The pillows I use on the paddles take just two long breaths to fill. A compressed air cylinder is another bit of heavy tackle to lumber around and they need refilling. How about a bicycle pump? You can get some very compact ones. Or a camping foot pump which could double up if you are camping from the boat. They can be quite efficient and warm you up on a cold morning before you set out! We started out with a Sevylor inflatable canoe and could get it inflated with a foot pump in under a quarter of an hour. Hope you don't need the wetsuit on your tests!

[Todd Bradshaw]

Interesting. Are you sure about the roof rack part, because that almost sounds like "Sea Wings"? They strap to a kayak down at the waterline, making instant inflatable sponsons along both sides of the cockpit for recovery and more importantly, continued emergency stability (big-time) in the conditions which rolled you over and dumped you out of the boat in the first place (an issue not addressed by most self-recovery systems). The word on the street is that they are a superb product that really work great. Unfortunately, the guy who developed and sells them is known for being extremely hard to get along with and most of the boat manufacturers that I know who might otherwise endorse or even sell the product won't touch it for that reason. Somewhere I saw a photo or video of someone standing on their head in a sea kayak with the Sea Wings inflated and keeping the boat upright.

In any case, inflatable outriggers can work well, whether originally intended as roof racks or any other use as long as the shape is reasonable and you can find a secure way to mount them. Balogh Sail Designs also makes some nifty inflatable outriggers to go with their sail rigs for folding kayaks. I've seen them in action and they are extremely buoyant, yet pack down to a small bundle and a hunk of tubing. I don't remember though, exactly how the float was attached to the tube. Looks like some sort of struts, but I don't remember whether they were hard struts or flaps of fabric, straps, etc.

http://www.baloghsaildesigns.com/images/larKle.jpg

[Todd Bradshaw]

Carole, seam tape is worth it's weight in gold, but I also wondered why their shipping charge was so high. It could be that they are mainly a wholesale operation and if the have to sell retail in small quantities they charge more as a handling/service fee. I noticed that they also sell Hayward fabric, but it's pretty pricey. One roll of tape would do the entire sail, but it's handy around the house. You stick it down on the fabric, lay the next piece of cloth over it and peel the backing and stick the pieces together in short lengths, working your way along the seam from one end to the other. Baste the panels together, then do the panel sewing, then start adding corner patches and sew them down. Lastly, add the hems or edge treatments and finally sew them down. You get a little bit of sticky goo coming out with the needle, but it's not bad. I just use a pencil for marking. Round patches are easy if they just have cut or hot-cut edges. If you want to fold the edge under, it's pretty tricky to get them down smoothly and straight-edged triangles would be a better bet (strength is pretty much the same).

That's Clifford the big black dog - 110 lbs. of pure enthusiasm when you ask him to help with the sewing.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/clifford.jpg

but he perks right up if you offer to take him cruisin'

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/cliff2%20copy.jpg

[DiamondBullet]

Thanks again Todd,

Clifford is one cool pooch!

Just got the off cuts of aluminium sections today. So it's onward with the mast as well! The weather is perking up here so hopefully we can drag the kayak out to do some work on her at the weekend.

I've just realised Skuthorp may be referring to those little air cylinders for filling the sponsons. They are still quite pricey. We are what is known as tight wads in this household!! You have to prise the money out of our fingers with a crowbar!

[DiamondBullet]

If anyone is interested, just happened on a quite interesting site showing how someone makes seams on kites...
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:3Fagl17UWlwJ:www.kitelife.com/archives/099/sewing.htm+sail+seam+tape&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

[Todd Bradshaw]

There are several variations on the flat-feld/lap-feld/french-feld seam. We used them on balloons for both panel seams and patching holes. The one they show in the kite instructions is what we always called a "partial-flat feld". In cross section, it looks like this.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/GOOD%20copy.jpg

After the first stitch line is installed and the panels spread back out it looks like the top drawing. The seam allowance is then rolled or folded to hide the raw edges and the second line of stitching is put in as shown on the bottom drawing. The first photo on the kite site shows what this would look like if you shot a photo from below the second drawing.

On curves, like the inlays and lettering on balloons, a slightly different form was used. The balloon would be built with full panels (B - red line) and then the new piece for the inlay (A - blue line) would be sewn over the top with it's raw edge folded under, like the top drawing in this one.
http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/CURVES%20copy.jpg

The original red panel is then cut away under the inlay as shown and the raw edges of both the new inlay and the original panel are rolled under before the second stitch line is added (bottom drawing). If needed, a line of seam tape can be used to help hold things in place before sewing.

The strongest of all is the full lap. The panels are overlapped as shown here at the top (often with seam tape) and next the entire seam is rolled to hide the raw edges and interlock the panels. Then both lines of stitching are installed as shown in the middle drawing. For extra control over the slippery fabric or in difficult applications (like "window patches" - rectangular patches with lap-feld seams running around all four sides) you can even triple-tape them (bottom drawing). Once taped, they're very solid as you try to navigate a 200 lb. pile of lightweight fabric into the sewing machine.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/BEST%20copy.jpg

Most lap-feld seams are 95% set-up and piecing and only about 5% actual sewing time.

Any of these seams will exceed the tear strength of lightweight nylon - it may tear, but it's not going to be at a seam. For balloons, these types of seams also generally have enough layers and bulk to stop most tears from crossing a seam (it's bad to lose a panel, but losing several panels to a single tear can spoil your whole day).

For nylon sails, like spinnakers and drifters, these seams are overkill and not very common these days. A simple, 1/2" wide overlap made with good seaming tape and no stitching is strong enough for some applications. When extra strength is needed, a single line of triple-stitching down the middle of that overlap seam is the most common (triple stitch is a big zig-zag where each zig or zag is actually made from three small straight stitches). Even though the cut edges aren't rolled under as they would be on a lap-feld seam, the seam is generally at least as strong as the fabric itself is and the lack of bulk makes a smoother airfoil. You can certainly use lap-feld seams of some sort for your sail and it will make strong panel-to-panel seams, but it's probably best to avoid them for any vertical seams that might disturb the airflow across the sail.

Back when we had to do a big repair (like replacing all the panels in the top half of a balloon) we were often looking at as many as 24 flat-feld seams that might be as much as 50' long. Instead of taping and hand-folding all that nylon, we used this gizmo. It bolts to the bed, in front of the needles on a twin-needle sewing machine and acts like a "fabric funnel". Once you get the fabric started, the folder feeds it into the machine in the flat-feld configuration and the needles lay down two lines of stitching, finishing the seam.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/folder%20copy.jpg

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Todd,

Sorry my reply is late. Our broadband and phones were down most of the weekend.

Great information which I am digesting. I'm still trying to source cheaper seam tape before I decide on the seaming method. I have taken some more pictures of the kayak this weekend showing work I have been doing on the mast step/plate. I have had this crazy?? idea for using part of the windsurf boom as the leeboard frame. It is hard to explain in words. I need opinions as to whether it will work, and how to best to add the actual mounting points so they will adjust. I'm sure there is a way of doing it. It looked so right on the boat and will add more stability to the hull. I'll try to post these later. I'm also putting up some photos of the anchor trolley for interested parties. Expect these later as I have to have breakfast and do some work first!!!! Many thanks again for your valued help.

[DiamondBullet]

I phoned Kayospruce today and they informed me that minimum postage is £4.50, which is a bit more reasonable! So it looks like I will go with their tape. I've ordered a catalogue so I can see what other goodies they have. Thanks for the info again.

[DiamondBullet]

I have put some more pictures on the link below as previously mentioned. Mostly they are pictures of me getting the proportions and layout straight in my head, but they show some movement forward with the project. I have overcome some of the reservations I had about things fitting. Funnily enough, I didn't trust the plans I drew, but they were amazingly accurate and everything seems to be OK. It just shows the value of getting things down on paper first. I have to look out the resin I have stored in the garage. I just hope it hasn't gone off in the tubes. I hope you can see what I mean about the leeboard frame idea. If I can make some sort of sliding or hinged adjustable bracket then I think it would work, and also be out of the way of the cockpit. I would be interested to know your thoughts.

All the best.

Link: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/caroledesign/sail/Kayak_web/Desktop.html

[Todd Bradshaw]

Interesting idea for the bracket. I don't know whether or not it will work, but it's certainly worth playing around with to see what you can come up with. The thing to remember about leeboard brackets is that much of the time they seem to be under more stress than you originally planned on, so they really have to be solid and solidly attached to the hull (in a removable sort of way). Somehow, you also need to come up with a fairly broad surface for the board to bear against that will resist inward, outward and twisting forces, which can be a pretty tall order.

As convenient as the installation may seem, I suspect that generating this kind of solidity may be the big problem to overcome and in fact, may be too big to overcome. We know that a typical, clamp-on crossbar and shoulder-block bracket will work. I'd be willing to fuss around with the new idea to a point, but if it doesn't seem like it's going to generate something quite sturdy I'd probably lean back toward a more typical clamp-on that would attach to the cockpit rim, similar to those on boats like Kleppers.

While you're thinking about different ways to solve these issues, take a look at this. It's a photo from the Balogh Sail Designs website that I blew up so that I could get a better idea of how they attach their outriggers and leeboards to plastic kayaks. I've sailed a Mad River (open) canoe with a Balogh rig and the leeboard mounted on a tube worked quite well. It's been quite a while, but I believe the attachment that kept the board from spinning at will on the tube was some sort of friction washer/clamp system. The board would pivot upon grounding, but stayed down while sailing just fine. The port/starboard strut system for mounting the tube is also quite interesting. Another possible source for ideas.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/larHanLoo%20copy.jpg

[DiamondBullet]

I'm sort of thinking of a flat piece of metal which will clamp around the tube and maybe some studding coming off that, onto which the leeboard will clamp. The friction plates could be somewhere in between. The strut system in the picture looks like a lot of hole drilling in the hull, which I would try to avoid by maybe having the ends of the struts attached via shackles to the eyes already attached. (this may be too loose though). The framework in my pictures was amazingly strong but as you say, it is fitting it to the hull which is critical. I'm also not sure of how to make it adjustable. If it doesn't work I'll put it down to experience! Was there a piece of cord going to the leeboard on the Balogh? It is all a little difficult to make out. I have admired the Balogh images you have sent, was it a good sailing experience? Were there any downsides? On to breakfast. Its chilly here.

[Todd Bradshaw]

As I remember, the board had no lines, but it was right there next to you and you could just reach down and adjust it. The rig worked fine, but I didn't care much for the attachment method. I can't remember what all was involved, but one of the key attachments was a pair of small clevis pins stuck through holes drilled in the hull, just under the gunwales. This was a fiberglass canoe and fiberglass canoes are pretty thin and not particularly strong in that area. There is no way on earth I'd ever mount something with a pin through the topsides like that as it's just asking for trouble. Luckily, it was a boat owned by the manufacturer, so it wasn't my problem.

[DiamondBullet]

Surely that would cause splits to develop. You say it was straight through plastic with no strengthening beneath or above! I suppose the angled struts either side are to stop the mast levering against the deck/hull, but as you say, that sounds a very dodgy way of connecting. Maybe they have changed that nowadays. I'm trying to stop any levering with the mast arrangement we are developing but it does involve changing the kayak permanently. I've seen scary massive deformation on the deck with just moderate winds on the downwind sail, and we have rectified this by attaching a long 5 ply plate (with 5 coats of varnish) beneath the deck area to spread the load as the plastic plate supplied just wasn't big enough. The manufacturers never seem to mention this potential problem. In a wooden kayak I wouldn't have such fears about drilling more holes but I would still glue in some extra wood and add metal plate or large washers to stop 'pull through' and to spread the load. I also like to sleeve bolts where possible to prevent oval-ing. Our challenge is to keep the weight down without compromising strength.

I very strongly desire a bandsaw to cut out the leeboards, but am forced to do it with a jig-saw. I think I will sandwich the boards between old wood to stop the edges 'ripping'. That way I should be able to keep it smooth. Nothing worse than a load of splinter caverns which run way back into the flat wood. I'm using exterior ply for the moment. (it is cheap and if it doesn't work then we can use them as trays!!). If it works reasonably we will replace with something more pleasing. I will feather the leading edges and taper the back edges. Then loads of yacht varnish. I am toying with the idea of staining them with red before varnishing, just to make them marry in better with the boat colour when stored on the back. They don't have much of a nice grain to show off.

What was the Balogh leeboard made of?

[Todd Bradshaw]

A simple mahogany slab as I remember. As for the pin through the hull - one of the nice things about fiberglass construction is that you can beef-up the bottom with extra layers for durability and thin out the topsides where the layup just has to keep splash out. This does mean, however, that holes like that will likely soon fracture around their edges and get bigger. It would be a simple matter to back-up the hole with a plate or wooden block epoxied to the inside, but perhaps since this was a factory demo boat they didn't bother. I think most sane people might get the picture when they see how easily the drill bit punches through the hull up there and realize that the spot needs a bit of localized reinforcement.

[DiamondBullet]

I've found three tubes of the resin, so I can experiment with one and keep the others for the real job. This resin doesn't keep once mixed in the nozzle, so it is one hit per tube. I have to get all the components which will take the resin ready in advance and do the whole thing in a maximum of two hits (one per tube). 'Tis a risky business! I will need a nice dry warm day to do this, and we are running out of them, so this may be an early spring job. I want to make everything right, as to botch the job at that stage will just about ruin everything. Doesn't stop me getting all the other stuff done first.

Mahogany sounds like a very heavy wood, but strong I suppose. The second windsurf boom is arriving today so I can chop that one up as well, hopefully. The Kayospruce catalogue arrived today and it is full of pretty pictures and nice things! Looks like the budget is rising!

Thanks again, Carole

[DiamondBullet]

Bit of a silence while I've been getting materials assembled etc. Kayospruce sent the order wrong, but were extremely helpful and Myra re-sent the tape without me having to send back the wrong item. It took a while to get the plywood home and clear the workshop area to lay it out. Very tight, and I had to slightly reduce the top corner of the sail as getting the kite material to the correct orientation for its weave meant it was a very close thing. I should have ordered one extra metre! Anyway I taped it all out and let my knees recover for a couple of days and kept looking at it to make sure it was OK. Then I laid out the panels one by one and marked them up with pencil. Added on the seam allowance. Then I cut out each roughly with extra on the ends. I overlaid the panels to check alignment and then cut out more accurately, but still left the ends uncut. This was a lucky thing as when I taped the seams using Todd's preferred three tape seam, I found that rolling them over had changed the end positions, something I had not thought about. Luckily this just involved re-marking the ends so they aligned again. The kite material is so slippy that rolling the seams and taping them was a bit of a headache. In some places I have tiny little rucks which I am worried may affect the flatness of the sail and it took a lot of effort to keep the seams dead straight. These small rucks were virtually impossible to eliminate. I developed a technique of keeping it taught (but not stretching it) over a distance of around 8 inches with both hands, then easing it onto the tape in one hit. If I tried to press it down moving along the seam it would distort. Overall, though, the sail looks good, but even fixing it down hard at the edges it is difficult to get it to stay perfectly flat to assess how good it will ultimately be. This is the sacrifice for its lightness I suppose. I have made a lot of progress on the mast step, cutting and drilling the 'hinge' area. My partner kindly turned the brass bolts to fit the sleeves, and I have fitted the sleeves tightly in the mast base. I have also cut out the leeboards and feathered them down, but one had some dicky ply which I am filling. I will put some piccies up later.

[DiamondBullet]

I also now have the stainless ring which will go slip over the mast for attaching the spirit downwind sail. I have sorted some stainless welding rods so I can weld on some studding at the correct angle so the sail can slip onto this. I will photograph the progress on this one. It may not look pretty! I have never welded stainless before.

I have also nearly finished the prototype outriggers made out of simple household items!!

Is yacht varnish OK for the leeboards?

[Pernicious Atavist]

Diamond, what are the leeboards made of?

[DiamondBullet]

5 ply

[Pernicious Atavist]

Okay...I didn't read all your posts....

If it's good quality, marine, or outdoor grade ply, then varnish is fine. I use it for the cheeks on my rudder and it's been okay. Now, what I would recommend is epoxy if you can, and varnish over that.

I'll post photos of my tackle, blades, etc. in the magazine once it's online, so that'll help, as will all the others who contribute, I'm sure.

[DiamondBullet]

It is exterior ply, but probably not a permanent feature as these leeboards are just test pieces. My intention was to put several layers of yacht varnish on, then if it worked either to put some more on or make new 'proper' wooden leeboards to the same pattern. If it doesn't work I will be making longer leeboards anyway.

What sort of epoxy do you recommend (can I get it in the UK?) and do I need to thin it for the first coat? I've never used epoxy before, are there any hints as to get the best out of it? Is it like a two-pack kit? Do you have to prepare the epoxy layer in any way before the varnish layers? If I buy some for these leeboards then I can use it on all the other wooden parts I am making as well. Thanks for your help so far PA. You'll have to watch posting up pictures of your tackle, or it will be the only canoe-porn magazine on the web!:)

[Pernicious Atavist]

Well, it won't be the ONLY canoe porn magazine on the web, but it'll be the best if it goes as I intend!

As for epoxy, I don't know what's available there. West Systems is what I use, but there are others. As for use, epoxy is a two-part product, a resin and a hardener. Obviously I can't give you a lesson here, but the product you select will have instructions. It's easy to use and makes bits bullet-proof. A light sanding followed by cleaning with mineral spirits before varnishing is all that's required.

Others here may be able to point you in the direction of inline tutorials.

If your plywood is exterior, I wouldn't bother with epoxy at all. Thin the first coat of varnish a bit, maybe 1 part thinner to 10 parts varnish so it soaks in, then follow that with two or three more unthinned coats. You'll be fine.

[Canoez]

As for epoxy, I don't know what's available there. West Systems is what I use, but there are others. As for use, epoxy is a two-part product, a catalyst and a hardener.

Catalyst and Hardener? Hmmm...

I try to keep my systems straight by separating the terminology used for them. I always tend to think of Polyester in terms of polyester resin mixed with catalyst (Peroxide based, no?) and Epoxy in terms of epoxy resin and hardener. For me, this helps keep the confusion low.

Don't know what you get when you mix catalyst and hardener...

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

You can get WEST or SP in the UK easily enough - Northampton Sailboats used to sell small quantities in ready-to-use kits.

Or you could try Rob Hewitt (http://www.epoxy-resins.co.uk/) I have not personally used his stuff, but it is well spoken of.

There are different ways to measure and mix - but that's a different story.

[Pernicious Atavist]

Canoez...whatever are you talking about? Catalyst and hardener? Huh?
(Thank goodness for editing options, eh?)

[Canoez]

(Thank goodness for editing options, eh?)

Yep.

[DiamondBullet]

I quite like having all these extra contributions. It was getting a bit of a private conversation between Todd and myself!! (I did sort of bring that on with the title of the thread). OK PA, I'm going with just the varnish for now, but the other info was useful and I can see me using it in future, now my life is getting more 'boaty'. Northampton sailboats is not very far from me. I've spent more cash than I should there. Thanks PI and Canoez. I have used glass fibre and fillers on cars in the past so sort of know how to mix such things. I tend to use the words catalyst and hardener interchangeably so I wouldn't have noticed any error. My technical abilities fall a bit short – I was deprived in my youth. The boy's school had technical drawing. We had home economics!! I longed to do technical drawing but wasn't allowed to cross the threshold in case I was ripped to shreds by all those mad bad lads! (I should have been lucky)

By the way PA, when you do get your tackle out for this canoe-porn mag, make sure it stands tall and vertical!!:D

I think I better stop these dubious double entendres now or we'll get taken off!

[Pernicious Atavist]

Gentle men...we have a nasty girl in our midst....

[Todd Bradshaw]

Whatever you decide to put on plywood leeboards, keep putting extra coats on the edges until no more will soak in and then let it dry and add a couple more for good measure. Otherwise, what will soak in will be water and that's where you start to see problems.

[Pernicious Atavist]

Good point, Todd. I made a lead insert for the lower leading edge of my rudder. It both doubles as ballast and guard.

[DiamondBullet]

Girl . . . GIRL . . . I like you! Not been called that for a long time. As for nasty, never, never! Or was it spelled wrong, should have been hasty.


Take on board your comment Todd, will saturate edges. I'll put up a picture before I start in case you can see a prob that needs sorting.

PA – did you router out a groove and slip the lead in? How is it affixed? Where's all these pictures you keep promising kind sir!!?

[Pernicious Atavist]

HA! Girl...always, if you're a girl at heart.... Might find out next year when I come over.

Okay, wasn't clear about the insert.
The rudder is 3/4 thick red oak shaped into a rough foil cross section--rounded leading edge and a tapered rear.
I cut away about a 9-inch portion of the leading edge, 3/4-inch deep, and replaced it with a piece of lead that's shaped to fit. It weighs about a pound(?) and is afixed with brass screws through it into the rudder.

[DiamondBullet]

Young girl inside, old gal outside - like a sporty classic car!!!! Occasionally polished, mostly tarnished!

Did you hot-pour the lead to get the shape? Surely this wasn't for a canoe. A pound weight on the rudder of our kayak would leave us vertical!!

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

.... I have used glass fibre and fillers on cars in the past so sort of know how to mix such things....

Most of the car bodgery is based on polyester where you add a small quantity of "catalyst" to some resin (Drops of one to Pounds of the other) - the stuff then gets warm and sets - get the numbers wrong and the resin will still set - it may be slow, or get hot - but it will set.

Epoxy is a different beast - you will be mixing up resin and hardner in 2:1 or 3:1 proportions - the exact numbers vary from one maker to another - and, if you get the ration wrong, the mix will not cure - at least not this side of judgement day.

[DiamondBullet]

Car bodgery!! I call it aesthetic modification:)

I'd better make sure I read the instructions when I get to that point!

Many thanks

[Pernicious Atavist]

Diamond, the lead was cast on molds (moulds) as ingots that could be more readily melted when we needed to cast ball for our flintlocks. I happened to have a few left over. One can do the same by routing out an approprite groove into a piece of wood.

My rudder is somewhat larger than what one would need for a kayak. One (that would be you, darlin') would make adjustements accordingly.

[DiamondBullet]

Flintlocks! Ave ye been a doin' any looting of late? Watch out me hearties, we 'ave a dastardly pirate in our midst hoistin' a skull 'n crossbones!

[Pernicious Atavist]

Don't need to loot no more, lass. Got me a job in the media; it's a whole different kinda lootin'!

[DiamondBullet]

Dear all, pirates and gentlemen/ladies,

I have managed to sort some more pictures after retaking them all when my camera card corrupted! See what you think. Don't be too hard on my engineering skills, I'm no expert you'll agree, but it does all seem to work OK. Everything is progressing in parallel. So nothing seems to be actually finished yet. I find it is better to go away and have another look later rather than get it done quickly and find a big fault.

I will post more pictures as things happen and will soon start sewing the sail. I had to finish another sewing project first. I think this thing may work!!!

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/caroledesign/sail/Developments/Developments.html

[Pernicious Atavist]

very curious....very curious indeed....

[DiamondBullet]

curious good, curious bad??? I need an enigma machine to decode this response!

[Pernicious Atavist]

I'm not sure...but it's truly not a run of the mill outfit and you should be cognizant your craft will stand out from the rest!

[Pernicious Atavist]

bump

[DiamondBullet]

I'm still working on this 'curious' project. I've had to fabricate some smaller eyebolts out of some stainless rod and studding so we don't catch our thumbs on them while paddling. Cannot seem to buy very small stainless eyebolts here. Drilling the holes has been a bit of a pain as I only had a suitable bit for stainless which is 1/8th, good for making a pilot hole. I had to keep the speed down and plenty of oil and a sharp end to enlarge the holes with a standard bit. Stainless has been a joy to weld and a pig to drill!! I've decided to dye all the wood parts a dark colour so they don't show the dirt! These parts being the masthead and leeboards. I cannot varnish the leeboards until I have sorted the framework arrangement to hold them, as I may need to drill more holes. I've added another piece of ply to the back where they will mount to give them more rigidity. The mast plate/hinge/step is almost complete. The only thing here is the British winter stopping me using the resin. The kayak is stored outside and I need dry conditions to actually mount and resin the parts onto it. We've had three days of rain and some snow on Sunday, so you can appreciate I'm not keen on doing that job now! I'd rather be in the toasty workshop with the woodburner on.

I've drilled the masthead to take the flag. My partner has been enjoying his Myford lathe and milled out some grooves in the back of the mast plate for the resin to key into. I used two of the larger eyebolts (the ones which catch our thumbs) from the kayak to put into the mast plate, but the threads were a bit short, so he also milled out some of the plate to get the locking nuts on. Now he is making me a grommet setter from brass rod as I went and bought some brass grommets off the web and they didn't fit the setter I had!! He's done an excellent job.

I have sorted the yard (windsurf boom cut down). I needed to extend it a bit so I joined the two adjuster parts to make a longer centre. I've attached the parrell beads using stainless jubilee clips for now (until we know exactly where the sail will hang best). The boom has a different diameter of tube, so I'm going to have to turn some wood to join the two parts. I'm being bought a new wood lathe for Christmas so I don't have to stand in our bike shed in the freezing cold (where our old wood lathe is situated).

The mast itself is pretty much finished other than attaching a cleat. The actual sail is scheduled for sewing up in December and January. I wanted to get the mast and boom/yard done first so I can recheck it looks right.

How's that for an update? I'll post some pics when I can compile them.

[Pernicious Atavist]

Wow...I need to take a nap from just reading about all that work!
Looking forward to photos....
Ed

[DiamondBullet]

Poor ole bugger, I'll send the nurse around to give you the wet towel treatment. That should wake you up! Florida weather is obviously too soporific, you need some good old British cold eating your bones!:)

Even if all this work comes to nothing on the sailing front, I've still learnt a lot on the way! I must have some male gene niggling away at my brain as I really enjoy pottering in the workshop. Usually wins out against domestic chores (although I enjoy sewing!).

[boatbear]

Great thread folks; excellent communication of ideas in concise language and with superb illustrations. I’ve learnt heaps. There’s an almost obscene amount of inexpensive fun going on. Thanks.

Carole, so you are really going to hand-sew? Respeck, mate.
Charlie

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Charlie,

Obscene inexpensive fun is where its at! I have been considering borrowing a sewing machine from one of my clients who does machine quilting seminars but when I saw what she had it looked like you needed a degree to set it up. I sort of thought, I'm going to **** this up big time, so I'm sticking to the original low tech plan. It is amazing how quickly you actually get things done hand sewing in hour sessions. I have all winter so I can do it when I feel like it. A thimble is going to be a necessity for going through all that webbing though. I have already bent double some needles pushing them through on the paddle floats. My favourite needle of the moment has assumed the shape of a banana but it is quite nice to use, rather like a leatherworking needle (but a leatherworking needle is a triangular sharp profile which will cut the plastic too much so it isn't suitable). I once had a straight leatherworking needle go through the thick sole of my slippers and into my foot a fair way which demonstrates their cutting ability. I had to pull it out with pliers which took some doing without fainting!! :eek:

Got some small stainless rings today which I am going to cut and put into the eye bolts, then re-weld them solid. I will put up some pictures of the whole process from slapping the heated stainless around to welding (arc) the bits to studding and then drilling the holes. They seem such stupid little things to be having to make, but they will save our poor hands when paddling.

Thanks for your comments.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

.... A thimble is going to be a necessity for going through all that webbing though. I have already bent double some needles pushing them through on the paddle floats. .....

Palm - really.
Northampton Sailboats, or P&B - Could be a nightmare if you're a lefty.

[DiamondBullet]

Yes, I've considered a palm, I haven't been up to Northampton/Wellingborough lately. I could probably make one just for this sail. As I am going through kite fabric I'm hoping it won't be too difficult. On the paddle floats I was going through two lots of webbing and two layers of glued plastic. I'm not a lefty. I'll let you know how I get on with it and if I have to resort to a palm.

[DiamondBullet]

I've just put up some more pictures of my fabrication efforts. Some of it may not be clear until I show it in context. You'll have to wait for that!

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/caroledesign/sail/Stainless/Stainless.html

[Pernicious Atavist]

Freakin' amazing...reckon you'll have an article for me with pics once the boat, and my magazine, are done, eh?
So, dear, what are these bits and bobs for?

[DiamondBullet]

The eyebolt rings hold bungees which lock the paddles across the kayak. Handy for fishing as they stay out of the way, but will also provide the basis of the outriggers we have planned.

I'm not sure if my rough-honed skills would be up to the quality you require but if you think people will be interested I would contribute an article. Remember, I do rattle on so you'll have to edit!!!!

[boatbear]

Carole, more fun! The fabrication work is great. I love to fizz up some stainless from time to time. I’m not a good welder (yet) but I have fun and eventually get something that I know is strong and looks good. I’ve taken to making a couple of spares when I’m doing the cutting, and then using the best of the bunch, generally the last ones welded. I invested in a buffing wheel for my bench grinder, and a block of polishing compound for s/s. You can make ‘em gleam.

I recall you mentioning earlier in the thread something about s/s being hard to drill. I have had the same difficulty, but I have a recollection that having the correct angle of the cutting edges on the drill bit can make life easier. I don’t know what the angle should be – probably worth googling or asking a friendly old engineer (there are quite a few on this forum, for instance).

A palm is a great asset. I made one with some leather and a little shaped block of hardwood, sewn in. I made it look like one I had seen in a book, and it worked. Gives a lot more control over the force behind the needle and saves those fingers.

Now I know you are going to enjoy those winter months with the wind howling outside and the kettle simmering on the ‘ob and you in a comfy chair by the window pushing that needle, but … you probably know deep in your bones that you are going to want to experiment with different sail shapes and materials and adjusting the old ones and all that. I do urge you to grab a machine when one comes along. Just think, you’ll be able to knock up a sail in a day or two, in the middle of the ‘yakking season.

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL405/8230927/15385054/289738881.jpg

I found this old beast some time in the last century. It is a domestic German Singer with zigzag, and is one of my favourite things. It’ll punch through a lot of layers of sailcloth or truck tarp, leather, fingers etc. There are a lot of good old machines out there. Old sewing machine mechanics will often know of a bargain. Ask around. Try a few. Budget 50 quid or so. Get one you can love and are willing to commit to; one whose idiosyncrasies you will tolerate, even admire. Grin.

A great project folks, and a unique craft. It’s going to be a long time for us to wait for sea trials, though.
Charlie

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Charlie,

Thanks for your highly entertaining contribution.

You must have ESP! My other half bought a drill bit sharpening attachment for our bench grinder today (had enough of my swearing). In the instructions it gives angles for different usages. Apparently an angle of 88 degrees with a 1/16th overhang for hard metals and sheet work. Wish I had known that last week.

I'll definitely make up a palm, I have plenty of leather and some teak hanging around. Do you have a picture of yours?

I know this sail making thingy is going to escalate! Especially if the mast attachment works. I'm intending to make another downwind sail of the twizzle type when I get this project sorted. Of course, now I have invested a lot of effort in the Spirit sail mount I may not need the twizzle. But that probably won't deter me from making one for comparison as the sewing aspect looks fairly simple. I also am not sure how this kite material will perform on the chinese lug so I may have to remake in Dacron, then a machine is more likely as we will be deep into summer and we'll be out most of the time. As you guessed no time to sit and hand sew. I'm not sure if I can learn to love a machine. I love my arc welder and our tractors, but a sewing machine....ooh I'm not sure. Your machine doesn't look that old. Our favourite machine was an ancient Singer (bloomin' good make), but it became quite dangerous as the motor added to it exploded one day quite violently, wonky stitching on that one!:). It looked like a Victorian model which originally had an ironwork stand, but its simplicity was such that even a dork like me could use it. If I see a poor neglected simple specimen crying out for love I may be moved to buy it and nurture it in its new home, but for now I'll carry on.

As for sea trials. It's not that far off, I'm amazed its nearly December already. Quite honestly the weather hasn't been too bad for November. A bit chilly today but saw some Bermudans out on a reservoir and it would have been good for kayaking (as long as you kept moving!)

I put the ends on the spirit mount today, but only had stainless locking nuts. I had to open the doors and windows because the nyloc stank to high heaven! It sent up a mushroom cloud of smoke and I had to evacuate the place until it cleared. Don't weld locking nuts!

p.s. I didn't know you could get stainless polishing compound, will track some down. Thanks for that.

[boatbear]

Carole, have you tried the drill sharpening attachment yet? I'm keen to know how well they work - I've seen a couple of different types, including one that attaches to a drill. I've always sharpened by eye, but it is getting harder to focus at that distance. Sigh.

Given your previous traumas with sewing machines it is perfectly understandable that you should be hesitant to start a new relationship with one. Have courage, one will find you, and you will bond with it and want to polish it every sunday and oil its little working parts. There's bound to be a support group somewhere on the net for sewing machine trauma victims.

Sorry, can't find the palm. I'm sure it's somewhere safe.
Charlie

[DiamondBullet]

Charlie,

I'll let you know how the drill sharpening goes and put up some piccies. It only cost £8.50! The casting is the normal blobby undefined type you get nowadays, but if it works it works. I have to do family things today so will probably be next week.

My partner has decided his mission is to get a sewing machine as cheap as possible. I've already got my new wood lathe for Christmas so this will be a stocking filler! A rather heavy one so will need a strong stocking and a heavy beam to hang it from:)

Maybe your palm has gone holidaying by the beach. Palms like it there. They go a bit nutty!

I will have a look around for some palm pictures so I can make a comfortable one. I may make a quickie just stapled on for now so I can get going on the sail proper. I'm itching to start it but have been holding back while I get the other bits sorted in this mild spell. Really heavy frost this morning though, looks like snow on the way. Wood burner beckons.

All the best, Carole

[Todd Bradshaw]

I stuck some photos and a palm pattern here:

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20photos/Sail%20Palm/

It's 4:30 AM here and I'm going to bed. I'll explain the details later.

T.E.B.

[boatbear]

Thanks Todd, good pics and the pattern looks great. There might be a new palm on the way. If I can just find the old palm to assist in making the new palm ...
Charlie

[Todd Bradshaw]

OK here's the plan (reduced).
http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20photos/Sail%20Palm/reduced%20pattern.jpg

Three pieces:
- A heavy cowhide base plate. Thick, stiff leather as you might find in a heavy-duty belt. Cut to the pattern shape.

- A matching rawhide top plate. The same shape except that it does not need to cover leg "B". It should have a hole about 3/8" in diameter cut in the middle at the spot marked "iron". This will eventually be the hole where the iron's top is exposed to contact the needles. We're talking about real rawhide here, not leather. The easiest place to find it is in a pet store, Buy a dog chew toy made from golden-brown rawhide, soak it in water and untie it until you have a flat sheet to work with. Yes, it will be rather slimy when wet. Also....don't soak it more than 24 hours unless you want to smell something REALLY bad.

- Finally, the iron itself. I have added close up photos of a typical roping palm iron to the folder.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20photos/Sail%20Palm/

It could be made from just about any type of metal, cut from a piece of 3/4" rod, or possibly from anything else that's really hard (whale ivory? :)). Drill or carve some shallow dents in it's flat end to grip the back end of the needles when you sew. Irons are often riveted or glued to the base plate (from underneath) though you can probably get away without doing so. A pan-headed s.s. machine screw would likely also work. The iron will mostly be held in place by the rawhide top plate being stitched down to the base plate over and around it.

You will first want to cut out a test pattern for the base plate and try it on to see if it fits your hand. Scrap leather, canvas or even paper will work. By adjusting the lengths of legs A and B, you can adjust the palm for larger or smaller hands. A&B make the "back strap". They are joined by a simple lashing between their holes. Holes C&D are also lashed together in a butt-joint. In the process of bringing them together, the big curve between them will be twisted upward to form the thumb shield, as shown in the photos.

The iron sits where shown on the base plate and is tilted due to it's angled base. The top surface with the needle depressions should lean toward the gap between your first and middle fingers when you wear the palm. If it's not riveted or screwed to the base plate, it might be a good idea to glue it in place, just to keep it properly aligned until you have sewn the rawhide top plate over it.

Assembly is next.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Assembly is done flat (A-B and C-D not yet lashed together). The leather base plate can be either wet or dry (stitches bury a bit better if it's wet). The rawhide top plate needs to be wet and as soft as possible. If your leather and rawhide are heavy enough to make a good palm, you will need to pre-punch the stitch holes. Even another palm wouldn't likely allow you to punch through these sturdy layers of leather. A big finish nail with it's point ground sharp and a hammer works well if you don't have some sort of leather punch. It's probably easiest to punch most of your stitching holes through the stacked-up plates before the iron is put in place. The sewing pattern will look like this:

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20photos/Sail%20Palm/palm%20drawing.jpg

I'd probably wait until the other sewing is done to punch holes for the small circle surrounding the iron and punch them as they are sewn. After punching the stitching holes along the palm's edges, the iron should be positioned on the base plate in it's proper leaning position. The rawhide top plate is lined up over the base and with its hole over the iron and sewing the two plates together can begin.

Use heavy twine and two big needles - one on each end of a 4'-5' long hunk of twine. Start at one end (near A or C) sticking one needle through the first stitch hole (pliers may help) and middle the twine. You will stitch from both sides, working your way along the lines of stitch holes. Stick one needle through the second stitching hole, forming a straight stitch on the back side of the palm and then stick the other needle through the same hole from the top side of the palm, forming a similar straight stitch on the top side. Repeat this process and stitch the two plates together with stitches front and back at each hole. You may want to temporarily take a couple of turns around a hunk of dowel or similar with the twine for more power when pulling each stitch snug. Once you've built a palm, it will take over most of these heavy pushing and pulling duties.

After the edge stitching is done, you're ready to surround the iron's base with a tight circle of stitches. The object is to pull the rawhide down tight over the iron, forming a snug hump with the iron's dimpled work surface showing through the hole in the hide. Do not stretch the hole enough to expose the entire top of the iron. You want a ring of rawhide around the top with rawhide covering the edge of the iron's working face (see palm photos).

Now that the stitching is done, it's time to lash holes A and B together, followed by lashing holes C and D together. Then put the wet palm on your hand. You can just wear it for a while or try doing a little stitching. What we're trying to do is to mold it to the shape of your hand. This will save you a lot of break-in time and hand soreness. Once it seems to fit well, take it off very carefully and without disturbing it's shape. Set it somewhere and let it dry for a few days into that exact shape. Once dry, it should be quite stiff and still fit your hand pretty well. Any sharp edges of the base plate or rawhide top can be eased with some sandpaper. The outer surface of the rawhide should then be varnished or painted (some of the best palms made come painted a very ugly black color with enamel and look like hell - I haven't a clue why they choose such an ugly finish).

It takes a while to break a new palm in. In the mean time, avoid the temptation to put any kind of leather softener or oil on it. You want it stiff and oiling any palm at any time may well ruin it. With careful wet-molding and a bit of edge sanding you have done as much as you can to ease the break-in process without ruining the palm or diminishing it's ability to do the job.

Seaming or Roping - - This is a roping palm. Some are more complex and fancy, but this one will do the job and is much better than 99% of the palms that are commonly sold by marine suppliers. The big differences between a roping palm and a seaming palm are that roping palms have the thumb-shield and their irons have bigger dimples. The thumb shield allows the user to wrap the twine around his thumb and heave stitches tight in heavy cloth. The bigger dimples are there because the needles used for such activities are bigger than those used for seaming. You can sew anything (including seams) with a roping palm, but heavy work may be beyond the capabilities of a seaming palm, so the roping palm is generally a better choice as your do-everything sail palm.

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Todd,

Welcome back to the thread and thanks for your usual high standard of presentation. I don't honestly think googling would have brought me the sort of information you've just put on. Great! I'm so eager to get started on the sail which has been dormant for a month that I may try without a palm for now, but I do have some leather and rawhide in a box somewhere in our loft. I used to make belts, moccasins and other clothing so I have all the gear for leatherworking. I have some waxed thread I can use for this. There is a great leatherworking store called Pearce Tandy in Northampton, UK (Now called the Identity Store). Just walking in the place with the smell of leather is glorious. They do lots of cheap offcuts and all the gear for leatherworking, plus patterns. Problem is once you go in there you come out with loads more projects than intended! We can also sort the metal bit out fairly easily. In what areas do you reckon I should scale this down for a smaller female hand? Obviously the A to B should be shorter.

My quilting client has come up with an offer of loan of a Bernini sewing machine which is a pretty basic model. I'm still not sure about it but may have a go. I may do the long straight bits with it, but I think I'll use manual on the fiddly areas. I'll have to trial a test piece first. Thing is, all the thread I have bought is for hand sewing. I'm a bit of a tight wad and this means I may have to buy more thread for machine use. Oh well...! I'm still not sure. Someone – give the woman a slap!!:)

[Todd Bradshaw]

Since you have the luxury of making a custom palm, I'd be tempted to scale the whole thing, rather than just adjust strap lengths. The normal-sized iron should work fine with any of them. Got a printer? If so, print out this PDF (four page line drawing, very small file) and it will give you full-sized patterns at 100%, at 90%, at 85% and at 80% of the original design.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20photos/Sail%20Palm/!PALMSCA.PDF

Cut them out, tape the A-B and C-D joints together and try them on. Then you can adjust the strap lengths a bit as needed.

I have big hands, which is why I have this pattern. I ordered a couple expensive palms a few years ago in the only size they sell and they were too small. So I took them apart and made tracings from the pieces. The other one is a super-deluxe (and very expensive) Smith roping palm that's has about six pieces and which is about 3/8" thick under the iron with multiple layers of leather that taper out at the junctions. I've been meaning to make a clean pattern and get them into the computer before I lose the tracings or the pieces, so this thread was good motivation to do it. For light nylon, using a palm may be more trouble than it's worth and your needles will probably be too small for a palm to help much. You might find it handy for the reinforcing areas though. In the mean time, a pair of pliers makes a crude but effective needle pusher/puller in a pinch.

Berninas are good machines. If it has a two-step or a three-step zig-zag stitch (which most of their machines have had for quite a few years) you could sew all your panel seams in about 1/2 hour. These stitches make a fairly wide zig-zag where each zig or zag is actually made up from two or three small straight stitches. You baste the seams together in a plain overlap with 1/2" seam tape and then run a single line of stitching down the middle using the 2 or 3-step set as wide as possible. That's how we sew spinnaker nylon these days and the finished seams are stronger than the panel fabric. Might be worth trying if you can get your hands on the machine.

[boatbear]

Thanks Todd. What a wonderful resource this forum is.

And come on Carole, if you can bond with an electric welder, a sewing machine can't be that much harder. Pull yerself together, mate. Grin.
Charlie

[DiamondBullet]

Thanks a million for the information and support and I agree with Charlie. I am going to look out that leather in the next few days (too tired tonight, been digging).

I'm sort of tempted by the machine, but after all I've said about wanting to hand sew the thing it seems slightly hypocritical! A welder is so much easier!! One twist handle and a button. No tensions to set, no unpicking, and it is rock solid. It rarely lets me down and it makes lots of pretty sparks which I find sort of exciting (except when I set light to my trousers – a different story). My kind of technology. Now these here sewing machines are so temperamental and the last one to throw pretty sparks nearly took my head off! But my quilting lady assures me an amoeba could operate the Bernina (sorry about my previous spelling). Of course she is an international quilting star who travels the world so I am somewhere below amoeba stage in comparison, probably a single cell organism or even at the atomic level! I'm heartened by your words on the machine though, Todd, so I may follow through.

What type of thread do you recommend for machine sewing? Also, I've been told by my quilting guru that you can get double or triple needles which replace the single needle so you do three lines of stitching at once using the same bobbin. Is this something you would recommend or just a gimmick? Just think, I could screw up three lines of stitching in one third of the time it usually takes to do it. Gives me more time to unpick it all:)

We visited our kayak on the holding today and I had a fresh look at the leeboard attaching idea using the windsurf boom ends. I am going to have to make some substantial modifications to the junction from the mast as it sits at completely the wrong angle to the kayak body with the tubes floating about in mid air. I haven't given up on the idea yet. It all depends on whether I can remove the centre tubing from the mast clamp cleanly and rotate it to achieve the correct angle on the tubular arms. If they have glued the tube in then there's a problem, if it is just knurled and forced in I may have a chance.

I previously cut some stainless plate which will be the bracket onto which the leeboard and boom tubing mounts, but when I placed this against the kayak body the angle was much steeper than was in my mind. So it is lucky I hadn't folded the metal and cut the angles yet. This part is my last sticking point on the whole design. All the other parts are resolved and in the making. I do like having a problem to chew over in my mind. Stops me getting into trouble!

We will have a go at some drill sharpening next week and let you know how it goes Charlie. I am about to get the yacht varnish out and start slapping it on the leeboards/masthead/mast base. I stained the leeboards and they dried to a repulsive pinky colour which I hope will darken to a deep red on varnishing. Fortunately you can get away with a lot of yukky colour on a plastic kayak.

Bye for now. Dreaming of my Bernina already! She's a lovely gal.

[Todd Bradshaw]

First choice for seaming kite nylon would be a single line of 2-step or 3-step zig-zag down the middle of a 1/2" wide tape-basted seam. Second choice would be two smaller lines of conventional zig-zag near (but not quite all the way out to) the edges of the 1/2" basted seam. Third choice would be similar, but with two lines of straight stitching (8-10 stitches per inch). This could be done either on a simple tape-basted overlap or on a flat-feld seam. Whether or not this type of multi-thickness, rolled seam would generate a stronger seam in use depends upon the tear strength and stability of the specific fabric used. Fabrics finished to be as stable as possible (stretch and especially bias-stretch resistant) benefit less from the complex seam. They are essentially "more brittle" than softer stretchier cloth would be and tend to simply tear rather than stretch much at the seams. Most kite and spinnaker nylon is this type of stabilized fabric, so a simple seam, like a plain, taped overlap with a minimal amount of needle perforations from a single stitching line is often the best choice.

The double and triple-needle systems for home machines are more of a cosmetic thing than a structural one. A true industrial double-needle machine has two completely separate needle/bobbin systems, side by side. The home machine has a forked needle and multiple top threads for multiple lines of stitching on the top side, but on the back side there is only one bobbin assembly and the same bobbin thread has to wander back and forth catching all of those top threads. So it's kind of like two lines of straight stitching on top and a single line of zig-zag on the bottom and basically only has the strength of a single line of stitching as a result. I'd stick with the conventional, single-needle stitches.

[DiamondBullet]

I have further questions for my sail guru!

On the stitching I think what you are saying is keep it simple and minimal. Do you have any comments on the type of thread? Where the battens are to go I was going to add webbing pockets so I will need to run an extra line of sewing down each side of the seams which run across the sail. Should I sew the backing webbing on first, then sew the pocket, or add the pocket on at the same time? If I sew the webbing on the back first then add, I will end up with three sets of stitching. If I do it all at once I will only need two lines. I'm thinking doing the whole lot at once is now a better option to keep down the sew holes. I will need to do a smaller zig zag for these areas as per your second choice. What do you think?

Once more, thanks for your much valued help.

By the way, I managed to get the windsurf mast section to move last night. I stuck the whole bit in some soapy boiling water for quarter of an hour and it moved! I suspect this part is actually supposed to move, but I got it all secondhand and looks like it had some corrosion from saltwater. So my problem may be getting closer to being solved. I will post some photos up to show you what I mean.

[Todd Bradshaw]

For industrial thread on that fabric we would use size V-46, 100% polyester thread and a #14-#16 needle. Luckily, this is pretty close to most good grades of polyester home-sewing thread. There isn't much reason to switch up to something like the heavier button or carpet grades as the tear strength of your seams will depend more on the fabric strength than the thread strength.

You can usually get away with two lines of stitching in the same spot, but three often just adds more weakness due to the increased number of perforations than it adds increased strength. You could also double-sew the webbing batten pockets on nylon with two rows of straight stitches, spaced about 1/8" apart on each side of the webbing's edges. It would make a double-stitched seam that was no wider than a single zig-zag and neater looking than two lines of zig-zag on top of each other. When you sew a sail, every stitch is right out in the open for all to see and a rather big part of learning to sew sails well is learning how to do it neatly while still providing adequate strength. Multiple stitch lines which are not nicely and evenly spaced or which occupy the same space are difficult to make look good. If the machine has any adjustment or mechanical issues and you're sewing through webbing, a straight stitch is also easier for the machine to make (due to the way the mechanism underneath has to go back and forth to catch the top thread on both sides of the stroke when zig-zagging). A straight stitch just has to catch the top thread in the middle every time and is less prone to skipping stitches due to timing issues or thick fabric.

Note that I generally would not use two lines of straight stitching, 1/8" apart on Dacron. Nylon and Dacron have very different tear-strength properties, even in the same weight. Nylon has enough stretch that the yarns give a bit and help out their neighbors when stressed. Due to this, it will tolerate closely-spaced lines of perforations fairly well. On Dacron, the yarns tend to take the stress one by one. The first one tries to take all the stress and breaks, then the second yarn does the same thing, then the third etc. etc. etc. (it's just not neighborly fabric but this is a big part of what makes it more dimensionally stable and desirable than nylon for sails). It's also why we usually use a fairly big zig-zag with the stitch lines well spaced on Dacron sails. We want to put as much space as possible between the needle holes.

Also....if you're putting down a base piece of webbing for a pocket you can stick it down first with sail tape. It will both hold it there until you get the top piece sewn on and strengthen the seam once you do sew it.

[DiamondBullet]

That's very helpful, thanks Todd. Glad I left it a bit longer to start the sewing. Two lines of double stitches on the webbing then. I'll let you know how I get on.

All the best, Carole

[boatbear]

Bump. I'm getting a bit worried about Carole. She may have sewn herself to something and can't reach the computer ....
Charlie

[DiamondBullet]

Sorry folks, I've had a very busy week with some unexpected urgent cover to do workwise (early starts, late finishes). I haven't had a moment to do anything, which is frustrating to say the least. My eyes were too tired to do anything precise but I did manage to sharpen up some gouges ready to turn a wooden pole on my new lathe (to join the boom parts), but I didn't think that was interesting enough to report! The drill sharpener hasn't left its box yet. I'm involved in print and the Christmas rush is on, so all bets are off at the moment. Haven't even had time to pick up the sewing machine. Did a small amount of hand sewing the other day, but not on the sail!! At least I'll have earned some money to spend on more saily bits. I'm sure when I get onto stuff again your eyes will be bored with the amount of copy they have to wade through!

[Ahimsakid]

Carole, those of us who lurk in ether and await your next report do so with a strong feeling of envy over the pace you bring to your project. I am about to go down that same slippery slide--from planning and figuring to actually doing--and am inspired by your ability to bring constant energy to bear. My approach so far has been much less energetic than yours :-)
And many thanks for spurring a wonderful exchange; I've learned a lot.

[DiamondBullet]

I don't know what sort of project you are planning, but I think the best stimulus is to get a thread on this forum. I feel I have the toes of an awful lot of boots giving me a prod in the nether region, and Todd's really superb drawings and help have made me feel that I'm on the best track to get this project actually complete. There's nothing worse than getting half way through to find you have made a major design error. It can be a make or break time and many projects falter and die at this point. I felt a bit vulnerable posting up my stuff as it seemed so primitive and I'm not the best craftsman at making things look finished and polished. My excuse is 'it is only a plastic kayak'! I tend to stick with techniques I know, so sometimes I think I overengineer things by using metal, then other times I feel I may have made things too flimsy to cope with the stresses (like my outrigger experiment). I also have this fascination with taking bits from other things and adapting them, and saving loads of money (sometimes)!

But at least I know that the main parts are the right proportions and basically set up correctly to go out on an initial run with some confidence. I'm on the verge of booking us a day's introduction to sailing in a dinghy. I really feel we need to get a grounding in tacking etc. on a real sailboat so we know if anything is not right on the kayak. My intention is to do the sail course one day and actually kayak sail the next (weather permitting), so the feeling is fresh. This is my March deadline!! I'm still grappling with the leeboard bracket arrangement which is my last bugbear. The weather has been foul this weekend so I haven't got the kayak out. Windy and torrential rain.

The other thing about this forum is it is a disciplined way of keeping a record of my progress which I don't think I would have bothered with otherwise. It really is a great site and my thanks to you all for helping me out. I hope to post some progress up this week, even if it is fairly mundane. Ahimsakid, your comments are an encouragement. I will do the same for you when you get started on your project.

Regards to you all, Carole

[Canoez]

Uh, ok - tie-dye, anyone?

http://i15.tinypic.com/6ptclmr.jpg

[Todd Bradshaw]

Now that is cool!

[Canoez]

Looks kinda like tan-bark tie-dye, no?

[DiamondBullet]

Is that the Grateful Dead canoe??! I want one!!

[DiamondBullet]

I started sewing the sail by hand on Monday and at the moment I don't need a thimble or a palm. I'm sewing black thread on black webbing so my stitching is virtually invisible (I have a very strong daylight lamp so I can see where I've been). I also turned the wooden pole and joined the bottom boom (I turned down a broomstick from the market). My partner has turned some nice brass top hats to put into the leeboards where they pivot. I've suggested he puts some sharp 'ribbing' into the metal so they don't spin in the wood (I will also glue them). Then I will varnish them. That still leaves me with my leeboard issue which I am chewing on. I'm thinking that ultimately I will have to get the whole mast properly assembled on the kayak before I make the final decision on this, as the angles are the critical part. I have to get these leeboards right or I suppose they will interfere with the forward motion if they are off-angle. It is tricky because the boat tapers in several ways at this point. I may end up abandoning this train, but I'm still hanging in there with the idea. I will try to take a few pictures before the weekend and put up another page.

[DiamondBullet]

For all you long-suffering thread-watchers out there I took some photographs yesterday and will get them up at some point this weekend. I had a bit of a crushing blow yesterday. I had sewn one side of the batten sleeve and just started the next, when I realised I had used the wrong diameter tent pole to measure the sleeve, so the proper thicker poles wouldn't fit easily (I had some thinner poles from the Spirit Sail I made). After a psychological crisis I came to the conclusion I will sew the other side and unpick the first edge, then re-sew. It did look good though! These cock-ups happen. It was a very strong area and I have some confidence that it won't fall apart there (if the kite fabric holds up). The sleeve is quite a stiff loop and my hands ache a bit holding it while sewing but I think it would be a difficult thing to feed under a sewing machine because the foot would be holding a lot of uneven surfaces. That said, there are only three batten sleeves to sew and I may opt for the machine for the top and bottom sewing where it is less fiddly.

I have started to varnish the mast-base and head parts. I was about to polish the stainless parts I welded but I have lost the threaded cone which goes on the grinder to take the polishing mop. Looks like another lathe project for my partner. The backward threads should test his skills. I screwed together the boom parts to hold them in place and put the parrel beads on the boom in a temporary position using stainless jubilee clips.

I found some soft leather while looking for the mop attachment, but I know I have some really stiff stuff around. I have a horrible feeling it is in the deepest recesses of our loft. Problem is the starter on our strip light is malfunctioning and it is like being in a David Lynch movie (although wouldn't mind if Dennis Hopper was up there, for all his psycho afflictions):D!! ... Must get it fixed.

[DiamondBullet]

Some piccies, more to follow at some point as there are a few little other things to show. Put third coat of yacht varnish on masthead/base today. I'm sanding between coats. My partner has put a thread on the brass top hats to key into the leeboards. He has also threaded the brass bolts to go in the mast 'shank'. Still sewing, when I get one batten done I will photograph it.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/caroledesign/sail/Boompics/Boompics.html

[Pernicious Atavist]

...imagine how easy that all would have been made of wood...at least you can cook dinner with the offal!

[DiamondBullet]

That would be offally nice, wouldn't it!

[DiamondBullet]

Quickie update. Still sewing sail. Halfway through second batten sleeve. Unpicked and re-sewed first. About to put brass sleeves in leeboards but no wood drills large enough (another purchase necessary!). Still varnishing (up to 4th coat). Got some thick stainless penny washers for my custom eyelets so they don't pull through the plastic and it makes them look less home-made! Will fit them to kayak as soon as weather is less cold. Sail is starting to gain character when I put the batten in the sleeve. I'm trying to figure an appropriate design for the sail. As it is yellow and black and we are beekeepers I was sort of thinking of a bee logo or a honeycomb pattern. Is that appropriate in the world of sail? We saw a lot of bees flying across Poole harbour so they don't mind using the wind over estuaries. I'm not sure how I would affix the design. Are there any paints which will go onto kite fabric or will they weaken its structure? Should I sew on some black kite fabric or will that have the same effect? Back to work now...

[DiamondBullet]

p.s. Haven't forgotten drill sharpener. Getting round to it!

[Todd Bradshaw]

You can paint logos with vinyl silk-screen ink and heat cure it with a hairdryer for that rubbery ink like they use on T shirts. If you avoid a really heavy application, you could also do it with spray paint. Cutting and sewing will also work. We use a sticky-backed fabric called "Insignia Dacron" these days. You simply cut out the design and peel the paper off the back as you stick it down. You could probably make your own using more kite fabric with rows of seam tape covering the back. Once it's been on there for a couple of weeks, it won't come off without a very serious battle.

[Ahimsakid]

Congrats on getting the mast corrosion to submit. What are your leeboard mast sleeves? Tubing? Just passing through or peened over and decorative? :-) I envy your shop skills . . . what are you doing for a leeboard nut? Where did I see that stainless rod welded to a hexnut? Seems I've lost track of the up stream portion of the post . . .

And Todd, did you ever actually find someone to fashion that newfangled leeboard clamping device? Yeah, "some sort of cam-lever" . . . that's the ticket . . . do I have to whittle one?

[DiamondBullet]

Dear both,

Thanks Todd. I had been thinking along all those lines except the Dacron peelable. I suppose it depends on if I am having a small logo or doing something which may extend over the whole sail. I've got some spare kite fabric and will do some tests when I get to that stage. I will have to make a nice simple design which will translate easily without too much fiddly cutting. I think maybe I ought to get the sail on the water before decorating it, but I am superstitious and think it should have a sort of mascot on it. All our cars never go out on the road without a mascot in.

Ahimsakid go to my last link:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/caroledesign/sail/Boompics/Boompics.html

The brass 'top hats' are the sleeves for the leeboards which my partner cut from some solid brass rod we had, which had been laying around for a long time, on his Myford lathe. Basically the hole in the middle is exactly the correct size to take some stainless studding. He also turned some large 'caps' for the other end of the sleeves which force onto the other side when the sleeve is pushed through the two layers of ply. I intend to recess the ply so the rim of the 'hat' embeds in the wood. He has cut ridges into the body of the sleeves which I haven't photographed yet. This is so we can force the sleeve in with some glue to hold it fast so it wont spin. We are also thinking of putting a pin through the rim as an extra precaution.

Now, Todd comes back into play because in his book he has a neat locking device which I have seen on used on other things like camera tripods and those wine-saver type plugs you fit in bottles. It is an eccentric cam with a lever on and allows you to relieve the pressure quickly so you can adjust the angle on the leeboard. This is to be our next challenge on the lathe/drill/tapping agenda (after he has made my polishing mop holder for the grinder).

When I get a moment (some hope) I'll reassemble all my links into one so you can follow the process without hunting.

If I get an hour I will finish sewing the second batten sleeve today, then just one more to go. I'm hoping to pick up the sewing machine today as well, then you'll hear some swearing! The only problem hand sewing at the moment is that each time I use up a length of thread I have to degrease my hands and the needle to get the sticky glue off. If I don't it gets very messy on the next section.

Maybe Todd has a picture of his cam lever to illustrate my description as I don't think it ethical to scan and post one from his book! I will keep you posted on our progress.

[DiamondBullet]

By the way, the stainless welding you saw was for the spirit sail mounting bracket and/or the eyelets with rings which go into the kayak body to take the outriggers (paddles lashed down). It will all come clear when assembled on the boat and photographed! That isn't far off. Just waiting for a milder spell without rain.

[Todd Bradshaw]

From the actual original manuscript......
http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/CL1%20copy.jpg

I don't know of anyone who's been brave enough to try one yet, though some of my customers have said they might build a pair to see if they'll work. The Willits rudder gudgeons are the parts I'd most like to see somebody make available.

What's really amazing when I go back through the original files for the book is that the entire thing - 260 pages with all the text and about 200 color drawings in a layout very similar to the final version, fits on twelve 2 Megabyte floppy disks!

[DiamondBullet]

Its those nice vector files keeping the size down! Floppy disks, now that takes me back a few years!:) You better get all that onto another storage media before they disintegrate!!

Thanks for putting up the picture. Saves me breaking copyright and making a mess of trying to explain it in words.

[Ahimsakid]

Todd's book has me looking at recycling opportunities in a whole new way. My mahoghany rudder and leeboards are coming from the top of an old piano. My sail is from a bolt of nylon (I think) that I found in an estate sale. The gunter-rig mast is one of the few parts I purchased . . . a closet pole from the local big box store which I've taken the spoke shave to. My aim is to spend little, have it function well, and to have nothing aboard that looks more modern than 1930s vintage :-) But finding an attractive leeboard nut has me chellenged . . . lately I've been eyeing doorlatch hardware with mal intent.

[DiamondBullet]

Ahimsakid,

Todd's book is a great catalyst.

Same here, although ultimately we have spent more and things have become more complex than I originally thought. Having a lathe already has helped as we can turn down big old bolts and odds of metal that are not a lot of use for other things. We have always dabbled in small sports and kit cars so we have lots of bits and pieces laying about to re-use. We always keep any wood and often pick up bits we see at the side of the road! Saw two scaffold boards on a roundabout the other day but when we came back someone else had nabbed them! We don't have your parameter of keeping the vintage look, which enables us to do pretty much what we like, but if we ever decided to build a canoe (which is looking likely) we would restrict ourselves to traditional where possible. I think we would have to invest in a bandsaw for that project though, and our odds and ends of wood probably wouldn't be suitable, so up goes the price, but would like to build using secondhand wood!! It's still cheaper than buying new and recycling has a lot of satisfactions. Ultimately I would love to fell some of our hybrid Poplars and make the thing from scratch, but no-one has given their opinion on the suitability of Poplar for strip boat building or how I would season the wood in preparation.

Did your piano have Ivory/ebony keys? They would make a nice embellishment (not sure where)! I would like to see your project, is it on a thread here somewhere?

[Ahimsakid]

Unfortunately, my project is more in my head than anything real at this point. Here (http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1820542567&size=l&context=photostream) is a pic of the hull. I've plans to rig her with a batwing sail of about 42 sq ft. I replaced the outwales with mahogany and have a good deal of leftover strips . . . I'll try my hand at laying them up in epoxy with some cedar for the leeboards (the piano lumber is not quite wide enough and I shudder over the prospect of end-gluing it.) I've got a nice piece of cherry for the mast thwart and I've fashioned a mast step that will screw to the ribs. I've gathered up some binding tape, grommmets, thread, a set of gudgeons and pintles, and a few fittings.
Today I finally decided that Tonkin bamboo for the battens and boom made more sense than using the mahogany leftovers . . . but when I went to order some I found shipping to be twice the cost of the items. I'll have to go with some plainer stuff from the graden center I fear. I'm also tempted to use a section of ash from the replaced outwale as the boom. It has a modest bend and should be strong enough . . . of course I have no idea whatsoever what that curve would do to the sail-handling. So much to learn!
My sewing skills are near non-existant . . . so rather than complicate things with batten sleeves, I intend to lace them on. For reefing points I'll be punching out some leather discs about an inch in diameter. I need to experiment to see whether such reinforcements will work as intended. My fear is that too many holes will only weaken the sail . . . so I'm thinking of attaching the discs with adhesive and then running the laces thru a pair of holes made with a hot icepick . . . with a little luck I'll find out if this nylon I'm using will hold up. I'll post pics as I get to actually doing something.
Tonight I'm playing with fashioning some "penny blocks" after the fashion documented by our mentor . . . I can't stand the look of the cheap hardware store pulleys . . . and as he said "a carefully built wooden block, finished with oil, is the least expensive and the most attractive."

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Ahimsakid,

It's a lovely looking canoe, well worth taking the time to make your additions look in keeping. The batwing sounds like it will look good. You didn't mention the colour of your nylon. As long as it isn't flourescent yellow like ours it will fit in! You are very brave making your leeboards from strips. We took the easy route with ply.

Is Tonkin bamboo a better quality than garden centre stuff? We did consider bamboo but I liked the 'tent pole' idea on the Spirit Sail and got some poles cheap end-of-season, so we went that way. The only reason we sleeved our battens was that I am hoping to be able to fold it all down and pack it up in situ. Movement is quite restricted in a kayak so the tent poles should slide out and fold into 3 for each batten without getting caught up in stuff. The poles are also not that pretty and I am going to colour code them so I know which one goes where. So I really didn't want them showing.

My sewing skills are pretty basic. I never did embroidery when I was younger! Fortunately the black webbing I'm using covers my amateur efforts. I picked up the Bernina on Friday and it is a completely different beast to any other machine I've used – quiet, smooth, sturdy and controllable. I'm using this on the easy straight bits where the stitching is obvious. I'm going to do some test pieces first to get the tension right.

Todd should be able to advise you on your leather reinforcements and you should run your sail plans past him and let him put you right before slicing it up, I'm so glad I asked him. I'd like to see pictures of your penny blocks when done. I think the fun in all this is being able to explore interesting possibilities and play with ideas without landing too much cost. If things go wrong then they can be fairly easily put right as the technology is flexible and basic. My sail and yours may not operate perfectly, may look odd, may get snorted at by the big boys, but we'll be getting more than just a day's sailing out of it. It goes much deeper than that. And, if it goes a bit wrong, just pack it away, put it down to experience and paddle! It's healthy exercise!:)

Then we get home and have a new project figuring out how to make it work better! Or if it does work superbly, make it prettier.

Can't wait for summer!!!!

[Ahimsakid]

DiamondBullet,
My sail material is white --tho some day when I can afford it I'll commision Mr. Bradshaw to stitch me up something in tanbark Egyptian cotton. I love that look.
Not much of a bamboo expert, but the Tonkin cane has less produced nubs or joints.
As for the block, the mahogany scrap I was using turned out to be not wide enough so I'll have to rethink. That's what I do a lot of :-)
Yes, here in central Texas the "big boys" all tear across the water at great speeds in powerboats that cost four times what my car did. What sailboats there are are all in what I would call the yachting class. There are some small craft and kayaks, but far fewer folks messin around in old wooden boats than I'd find up north. I figure the fish will wait till I get to them and any who well-heeled galoots who snort in my direction will get a big grin in return.

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Ahimsakid,
If your sail is too white I wonder if staining it with tea or something would give it a period look. I like seeing the old Norfolk Wherrys in photos with their grubby well-used sails.

I can't really comment on the people with their powerboats as I used to tear around in cars. It had more appeal in my younger 'needing action' years before I realised I was helping screw the planet. Now there's too much action, a lot of guilt and I want some peace!! Poor old bugger :-)
Thing is that powerboats, although expensive, seem to be around more than ever. Lots more expendable wealth, pity some of it can't wing its way in my direction!! It would probably ruin my creative use of scrap though which is half the fun.

I suppose if everyone was kayaking and canoe sailing all those secluded little niches where others can't penetrate would be as crowded as shopping malls. So its nice being in a minority.

Carry on grinning and thinking (very Buddhist!)

[Pernicious Atavist]

[Shameless plug]

That's okay! They'll all be envious of you once they see your boat on the pages of Canoe Sailing Magazine!

[DiamondBullet]

Dear all,

Quick update. On final batten sleeve which has been most difficult due to the amount of material I have to roll up and keep out of the way, then onto sewing machine for edging, after which I have to make up my mind how I will sort the boom/yard attachments. Got some wood drills to do the leeboard sleeving. Still varnishing components when weather not freezing. Been -5 and freezing fog here this week so I couldn't shift myself into workshop. Will post more pictures when I have enough to make a page.

I would like to wish you all a happy Christmas and smooth waters in 2008.

[boatbear]

Ouch, -5, freezing fog. Stay warm DB. Stoke the fire, have a good festive thingy. All the best for twenty oh-eight.
Charlie

[Pernicious Atavist]

Happy Christmas!

[DiamondBullet]

Thought I'd better resurface. I've finished hand sewing the batten sleeves. I was very pleased with the results, although there are a few small creases they seem to come out if we unfurl the sail with some pressure (us pulling it against the air). My partner finished the leeboard inserts by cutting them to the correct length. I cut the holes to take them and have embedded them using wood glue mixed with fine sawdust. I'm hoping this has entered the ridges we put in the inserts so they won't turn. Should be rock solid. Last coat of varnish on the tops of the masthead and base. Next is to do the bases and varnish the leeboards.

Now to problems. I got the Bernina set up as instructed and made a test piece with some Venture tape to match the sail seams. The first run of 4 inches was OK but the top tension needed adjusting which I sorted. Then it all went wrong and started dropping stitches, so I put the tension back to its original position. It wouldn't pick up the stitch at all!

My guru insisted there would be no problems, the needle was correct and I had spent an hour with her trying it out. So I packed it away as I was getting irritated and feared I may take the axe to it. The next time my partner inspected how I had set it up and could find nothing wrong. Then he did a faultless row of stitching (with the tension adjusted) which piqued me slightly. So with supervision I started on a real seam. After six inches it dropped a stitch, then two and finally stopped stitching, ruining the first section. I unpicked it all and sewed by hand into the same stitch holes so as not to compromise the seam. We came to the conclusion it was the Venture tape. It sewed fine on plain fabric.

I think the Dacron must be thick enough to slightly clean the needle as it passes through on your seams, Todd, but the kite fabric is very light and open and so the needle comes out with a good coating of glue on. As the friction heats things up it just gets gooey and doesn't work. I tried using surgical spirits to clean off the glue, but had to take the needle out each time (every six inches) to clean it properly and quite honestly it would be quicker by hand. We decided to lubricate the needle with liquid soap which shouldn't harm the thread. We used a cotton bud to make it efficient. I also decided a better way was not to use the electricity and to go the old fashioned way of hand-turning the machine. This is so I could see quickly if things were gumming up before I was half way along the seam. It was still quicker than hand sewing. Only problem was with all the previous fiddling we got 6 inches along and the bottom bobbin ran out!! So I had to unpick and hand sew that section. It did seem to be working though, but we'd both had enough and retired to bed.

Probably won't be doing much on it tonight but we'll see. Happy new year to everyone.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Skipped stitches are caused by the hook connected to the shuttle/bobbin-case mechanism (some hooks orbit it, some go back and forth) missing as it tries to catch the thread just above and behind the eye of the needle near the bottom of the needle's stroke. If the thread or needle are gooey and the thread is sticking to the back of the needle, it could certainly cause the hook to miss the thread - resulting in a skipped stitch. Back when I was doing a lot of sail repairs I sewed through spinnaker nylon all the time with Venture-taped seams using either an old home-sized Pfaff or Bernina (depending on which one would start) and I didn't have problems. It would build up a little ball of goo on the upper part of the needle after a bit, but you could just stop every once in a while and pick it off. I was using industrial thread, which has often been dunked in some kind of thread lubricant at the factory (keeps it cooler when running at high speeds) and maybe that's the difference. Sometimes you can tape a small folded hunk of felt saturated with lubricant to the machine, somewhere in the thread path and drag the thread through it on it's way to the needle. You don't want to add much tension in the process, but it works. The question would be what to use to lubricate it? We use a watery petroleum product containing some sort of silicone called "Clearco". I have no idea whether they treat home-sewing thread with anything. When I rebuilt my Avon inflatable motorboat I had to do some sewing on Hypalon raft fabric and used Armorall (dashboard and vinyl conditioner) as a lube to get the fabric to slide under the presser foot and it worked well. I might be tempted to dunk my spool of thread in it and let it sit for a day or two, or blast it heavily with silicone spray (like the waterproofing sprays for suede and raincoats) and let it soak in for a couple hours before sewing, but I don't know for sure whether it would work.

If you have Armorall or similar stuff over there, try wiping the needle down every once in a while with it and see if it helps, and/or wiping down a hunk of thread with a cotton ball dunked in it before it goes into the machine. It won't hurt the fabric. It might also be the product of choice for saturating the felt pad if you decide to try that approach.

In any case, for most of your seams, the Venture Tape is actually going to add more strength than the sewing is, so I'd keep the tape and hand sew the seams if the machine doesn't seem to be able to do the job. It's possible to omit the tape and just rely on the stitching, but in that case, any panel seams ought to be lap-feld seams with four interlocking layers, rather than the simple overlap and top-stitch that is used on most taped seams.

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Todd,

a very articulate way of explaining the problem. I do have some Armorall somewhere for use on our cars and I think I have some suede protector hidden away somewhere. The thread I am using is yellow 100% polyester which does not seem to have any coating. I will have a go with your suggestions and let you know how I get on. I'm sharpening my axe, though, just in case I need to use it on the Bernina (no.. stop it now.. you know it is borrowed Carole!.. Get a grip). I can say one thing, I don't think this sail will fall apart in a hurry. It may have the aerodynamics of a teacloth, look like a five year old made it and burn the retinas in the sunshine but it will be sturdy at the seams! Thanks again.

[DiamondBullet]

Todd, just used Armorall this evening. Soaked the whole spool of thread in it for an hour, dried it off and used the machine with the electricity off at first, then gained confidence and used the pedal control. Also dabbed Armorall on the needle every so often with a cotton bud. It worked incredibly well and, apart from my shortcomings as a machinist, was finished in a couple of hours. The thread colour became a shade darker but may dry lighter. I had to hand finish around the batten areas as the foot wouldn't climb that far so I left plenty of excess thread at the starts and finishes to accomplish this. Now I have the most important part, the boom/yard attaching points. Thanks again. Happy new year!

[Todd Bradshaw]

Glad it worked. You may eventually see some tiny oily spots forming around the stitch holes. As far as I can tell, they're some substance that the thread lube wicks out of the seam tape's glue. I ran into this problem several years ago on Egyptian Dacron with certain brands of tape. I called every sailcloth and sailmaking supplier I could think of to ask about it and naturally, none of them had ever heard of it happening (I often wonder how many of the salespeople selling sailcloth have ever even built a sail). Luckily, the spots eventually seem to evaporate on their own and disappear.

I spent my afternoon playing with my wife's Husqvarna Viking "Huskystar" sewing machine. It's actually one of their pretty basic models and was something like $475. Other than the fact that it's pretty light and has an awful lot of plastic parts (compared to the 85 lb. cast iron head on my sailmaking machine) it's an awfully nice machine. It also came with a DVD that shows how all the gizmos work. You park yourself in front of the TV with the machine on the coffee table, watch a short section, try it yourself on the machine and move to the next section. By the time you're done, you really have a pretty good handle on using the machine and it's various features.

I decided to prototype a new balmoral bonnet (a funny looking hat to us over here in the colonies) that I've been working-up a pattern for. I used some scrap upholstery suede and fully lined it with polarfleece to fend-off mid-winter brain freeze. The Huskystar really didn't have any serious problems going through multiple layers of suede and fleece which surprised me, since it's a lot lighter-duty than the machine I normally use. I can't say it was a very efficient building job as I was figuring out the construction details as I came to them, but all the materials were leftover scraps and I got a free hat out of the deal. Plus...It's made from upholstery suede, so I don't have to worry if I accidentally sit on it!

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/hat%20012a%20copy.jpg

[DiamondBullet]

Very cool with the geeetars in the background. I have gleaned that you play them as well as displaying them. Surely you must have some acoustics for when you are out serenading your missus in the canoe or you would need a very long cable:-)

Any Scotsman would be drooling over such a bonnet agin the dreich cauld!

Now tha need a bonny suede kilt tae goe wi' it mon so thae hough shall swing free in thae breeze! ... Plus a good sized sporran for all those extra sewing machine accessories.

I'll keep an eye out for the oily patches and not worry when I see them. Put first coat of varnish on the leeboards today and they don't look so pink as before.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Yes, I have a couple nice acoustics. The problem with them in a canoe is that they tend to fill with water through the sound hole when you pause to make a quick course correction. Not too sure about the whole kilt thing. I happen to believe that pants are one of our better inventions. At least if I did try one, I have better looking knees than Dingo! I'd also need a sgian dubh with a marlinspike on it.

Since the prototype was successful, afternoon #2 was spent making the real balmoral from a bit of Harris Tweed that I stashed away a few years ago. I don't think I have much of a future as a tailor as it took me six hours to make the damned thing, but it turned out pretty well and the full fleece lining makes it quite warm. Now I just need to find a good shotgun and I'll be all set to go blast some poor defensless small birds in proper fashion....or I can wear it when I play my Highland Bag Bass.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Music%20stuff/highland%20bag-bass.mp3

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/hat%20017a%20copy.jpg

...enough of this holiday fooling around. Time to get back to building stuff that I actually know how to make!

[Pernicious Atavist]

oh, todd....you have an outfit.....an 'onsom,' if you will.....

[Todd Bradshaw]

yeah.....all the cool guys have 'em.... Considering that I hardly ever go anywhere these days that you can't show up looking like you've been sanding bottom paint, it's actually pretty funny. And I still have almost eight yards of Harris Tweed left!

[Canoez]

Well, when the suede version showed up earlier, I was going to ask where you were going to find tartan cows...

[DiamondBullet]

Grouse and pheasant... yum, yum, much tastier than turkey!

The titfer looks great. I think your wife would like you in a kilt, I won't explain why!! It will use up all your excess material as well. But you must have a sporran. Tartan is only for the clans (considered naff on tourists) but the harris tweed would look classy. You could always make some 'trews' which would be very a fitting accompaniment although I don't know where you would stash the dagger (I'm not going there!). Then your social life could encapsulate canoeing, playing guitar, shooting AND highland dancing! ...or caber tossing (we English are too nancy for that). Get your bass rhythm moving faster and you'll have the whole room kicking. But personal preference – no bagpipes! My Scottish pursuits begin and end with the malt whisky glass. But I would love to go kayaking in the lochs. It is a very beautiful country and I've only seen the southern part of it.


p.s. I forgot to say, the missus is supposed to do the paddling while you serenade her, stops water ingress into instrument! Although you could still use it if your paddle broke.

[DiamondBullet]

Todd, I've been searching this thread to find your information on the corner patches, but I can't find it! You wouldn't happen to know where it is and re-copy it onto here! I was going to do that next before I put the top and bottom webbing loops on.

By the way, while navigating I realised we should be trying out this drill sharpener, it is still in the box!! My partner is just finishing my threaded cone to hold the buffing mop, I'll get him to pull the sharpener out and figure how to use it. He's been sidetracked trying to fix our water heater and I've been sidetracked trying to mount a sheet metal folder onto a wooden block which I can clamp to the workbench (this is for my idea of attaching the leeboard mounts). I put the first varnish coat on the front of the leeboards and back of the mast base, but it is so cold today I will wait until the weekend to put a second on. We are in the chilly grey months now but my luminous sail fabric lights up the house!

[Todd Bradshaw]

Corner patches are pretty simple. You want to build up about four extra layers at each corner in a gradual progression to make the smoothest possible transition from the panel fabric to the spot in the corner where the grommet (and the stress) will be. Size-wise, you generally want your patched area to cover at least 10% of the length of that particular edge (leech, foot, head, luff). A 100" luff, for example, would have patch assemblies that were at least 10" long on their luff side. You can go larger if desired for aesthetic reasons and simple patches can be triangles or sections of a circle. You can also mix the shapes. I will sometimes use triangles at tack and head corners and circular patches at the throat and/or clew corners to spread the patch over a bit more area for strength.

Triangle patches - easiest to sew:

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20photos/triangles%20copy.jpg

Circular patches - more area covered, but on stiff cloth they may require turning the entire sail nearly 180 degrees as you make each line of stitching.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20photos/round%20copy.jpg
Look at the panel seams on this one. You can see the thread wicking that oily stuff out of the seam tape. After putting in all that work, you can see why it bugged the hell out of me and why I was happy to find out that it didn't get any worse and would generally evaporate away within a season. Tanbark cloth and brown thread seam to do it the worst.

What is critical is to line up the weave of all the patch pieces with the weave of the panel below it to make a smooth thickening which resists distortion. We want the bias stretch on all of them to be in the same direction and match that of the panel. Generally each layer is 1"-1.5" smaller than it's predissesor. Traditionally, you put down the second largest patch first, then the smaller patches and top it off with the largest patch. Stick them down with tape and then sew through all of them. This shows very clearly when the sail is back-lit, so neatness counts.

(due to slow loading, I'm just going to put up links to the rest of these photos)
http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20photos/duckboat%20sail%20008%20copy.jpg

Generally, the transition will be smoother with simple hot-cut edges, rather than hemmed edges (which would double-up the patch edge and reduce it's stretchability). The under patches obviously don't need hemming, or even hot-cutting, as they're inside the assembly. The top patch would look neater hemmed, but it's a bit risky from a bias-stretch perspective on light fabric. I think I'd heat up a butter knife on the stove, put on a glove and make a crude, but effective hot knife for cutting out that big top patch.

If you are going to reef the sail, the ends of the reef lines need patches, too - similar to those at the main tack and clew corners. For fully-battened sails, reefs are generally designed to pull down sections between battens, using the batten as an aid. The reef corner patches are then positioned right above the battens as you can see here. You can generally avoid having to install those small intermediate reef point patches when doing this type of batten-reefing by putting the grommets for these middle ties through the added cloth thickness at the edges of the batten pockets instead. This particular sail used Chinese-style external, laced-on battens, rather than pocketed ones, so it had chafe bands added where the battens would sit, rather than hollow pockets. For the middle reef ties, I just used slightly bigger lace grommets at those spots, through the bands to do both jobs.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20photos/CL8copy.jpg

Finally, on a small sail don't be afraid to exceed the 10% edge length for patches. The weight gain is almost nothing and it's sometimes both easier to work with slightly larger patches and better looking, especially if you happen to be making a pair of sails and want them to look matched. As long as the weave of all pieces is lined up correctly they will work fine.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20photos/picolo%20Miz%20copy.jpg

[boatbear]

Excellent stuff as usual. I'll just add that I made a workable hot knife by hammering and filing down the spare tip from my 40 watt soldering iron into a rough knife shape. Worked a treat. I then found that it is a very good shape for electrical soldering as well.
Charlie

[DiamondBullet]

Thanks both, I'm hoping to have enough material to sort out the patches at the right weave angle. I can remember now we decided I would do the triangular patches. Does this have to be done both sides of the sail?

I'm not sure about the reefing yet. Now I have sewn the sleeves they are quite stiff and I suppose I should have put the patches in those areas before the sleeves, so it may look messy. As the front end of the sail will be fairly difficult to get to in a kayak, I'm not sure of the practicality of reefing it in-situ if conditions are getting difficult. Maybe better to just drop the whole thing and paddle.

I've cut and put the elastic in the 'tent' batten poles and have had a few ideas about leaving them in there and cutting 'windows' in the batten sleeve webbing so I can fold the sail down with them left in, which is an idea stolen from my Spirit Sail. You just pull the joints apart and the poles concertina up. When re-assembling the elastic helps re-locate the poles into their slots. I have cut the poles so they are longer where the mast will sit, so the joins don't get stressed at that point. Each batten is made up of three poles. I've decided that as they fit so snug I will be able to hold them in one end with webbing folded over and held in by a press-stud or strong velcro, and at the other with a slip of webbing and a grommet which will slip over the pointy end under a small amount of pressure. This will allow them to be pulled out and replaced if there are any problems. Tying lots of knots is a tedious job when jammed in a kayak.

I like the soldering iron idea for a hot knife. I think you can buy ready-made attachments for soldering irons and my partner thinks we have one with our kit.

Todd, your stitchwork is so neat it makes me cry!!

[Todd Bradshaw]

Just put the patches on one side. There is probably some ancient nautical tradition that strictly specifies putting them on one particular side (port or starboard) but I haven't a clue what it is. When I design a sail somehow it's profile just sticks in my brain showing a particular side - sometimes port, sometimes starboard. Once brain-gel has happened, all the plan drawings, the lofting on the floor, panel layout, etc. happen like the drawing. Patches get added to whatever side is shown in the drawing and which will be up when it's spread out on the floor. If nothing else, working from one side all the way through like this helps prevent mistakes as I tend to be a bit dyslexic.

On a sail made from kite material, I actually wouldn't mind tucking a tiny (2"-3") extra patch made from something heavier inside the stack right at the corners (light to medium canvas-weight or similar). Grommets and corner attachments (sewn rings, web loops, D-rings, etc.) need a certain amount of thickness to get good grip on the fabric and even four or five layers of kite fabric is still awfully thin. By the time you get that close to the corner and have all the regular patch layers stacked there, the corner should be pretty stable and a small heavy chunk should add some bulk without distorting. On nylon spinnakers, we usually do it with a layer or two of Dacron sailcloth, right at the corner.

[DiamondBullet]

That all makes sense. I'm sure I have something to reinforce the patches somewhere around. I think I have some tablecloth material, that wipe clean stuff with a fabric back. Would that fit the bill? Or would some of the thinner webbing I have do the job?

[Todd Bradshaw]

It might. Anything that's sturdy, stable and adds a bit of bulk should work.

[DiamondBullet]

I'll think I'll go for the webbing as it is stronger. I found the soldering gun and attachment and started cutting the corners (I've taken some photos I'll put up). First corner took half an hour, second a quarter, third ten minutes. Was getting high as a kite (pun) from the fumes so left it there for now. Being a divvy I taped the first set back to front with the weave going the wrong way, so had to dismantle and re-tape! Plonkers r us.

Will update some more tomorrow. Good night!

[DiamondBullet]

That soldering attachment is excellent on webbing. I've just finished the corner sections and stuck them to the sail ready for sewing. I used webbing for the extra patch, hoping the sewing machine can handle it! Second coat of varnish on leeboards. My partner has finished the polishing attachment so I can shine up the stainless and aluminium bits.

[Ahimsakid]

Okay, I love the info in this thread, but DiamondBullet I like your patois even more. Divvy? Plonkers? Please fill us Yanks in!

[DiamondBullet]

Both mean the same thing... I'm being an arse!! Which is basically an idiot. Not an ass**** as you 'yanks' say it which I think means what we would call a tosser (I hope this isn't a word that would be considered an expletive, this is for informational purposes only!:)).

I've been zig zag stitching these corner sections. They don't look bad, but they certainly don't look as neat as Todd's examples. I maybe need a few more sails under my belt before I get to that confident-looking standard.

But I decided not to let the show down and made up two extra corners for the reefing. I concluded that I was being a lazy bugger and may need the reefing and regret not doing it. Adding it after would look messy so I may as well do it now.

The polishing mop attachment is on, but I haven't used it yet. I've had to do extra work this week which has kept me alternatively occupied. As soon as I get a moment I will post some pictures of my efforts with the corner patches. I'm not sure how well they've come out as I'm having to use flash to get them in focus. Hoping to get over the workshop tonight to play. Take it easy folks.

[DiamondBullet]

'Ere we go again! Another set of piccies to prove I'm really doing as I say. No cool pictures of me wearing a hat I'm afraid. (will have to make some special sailing hats to celebrate the finish of this sail!!)

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/caroledesign/sail/Corners/Corners.html

I had a go at polishing the stainless and aluminium parts the other night. The aluminium was the most striking change – like a mirror. I think I will wear a face mask next time as all the fluff and gunk ended up in my lungs (and nostrils but I won't elaborate).

My partner tried using the drill sharpener but we have found the bearing in our fast bench grinder is a bit worn, and so it won't run true against the drill tip. Something he says we will have to resolve if it is to work efficiently.

The sail looks much more wrinkly in the pictures than in real life but I suppose we'll see when we use it.

I've been putting the webbing on the top and bottom tonight. Sewn the top. But Todd, I've been having some other thoughts on attaching the boom/yard. I think the webbing straps idea is not going to work so well, as those connecting lumps I have to clear mean a substantial gap and therefore some floppiness and slippage. My better half suggested toggles. I'm going to draw a picture to illustrate and put it up tomorrow-ish so you can give me your judgement. I hope you don't cringe too much at my efforts so far.

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Todd,

Here's my idea for the toggles. What do you think? Any advice? I can adjust the toggles to get the distances spot on, whereas sewing in permanent webbing loops means no adjustment if things aren't aligning.

http://homepage.mac.com/cda_it/Sites/Pics/toggle_design.jpg

Do you think my efforts so far will provide me with decent sailpower?

[Todd Bradshaw]

check your spelling, etc. as all I'm getting for the link is a red X. I'll try it again later to see if the problem is on this end.

[Pernicious Atavist]

nope, it must be the brit's cock-up, todd....
oh! blimey, diamond--i didn't see you there! sorry, old girl!

[DiamondBullet]

Works for me old boys! Are you on Mac or PC? Maybe its a PC problem, I'll investigate. I tried a different method this time. Probably go back to previous one.

[Todd Bradshaw]

I found that I can download it and see it, I just can't open it on the website.

That's extremely clever! Off the top of my head, I can't think of any reason that it shouldn't work just fine.

[DiamondBullet]

My other 'arf is a bit clever on these things. He takes things apart and puts them back together. I take things apart and have an interesting collection of components! Even if I get them reassembled I still seem to have half a dozen nuts, bolts or washers left over... gawd knows where they originated!!

I'll have a go at the toggles and let you know how it works. I'm going to hand-sew the webbing tabs as the poor Bernina was struggling through two layers of webbing, three layers of seam tape and a double seam. I think another two layers of webbing over that may cause a major protest to rival any 60's student offering.

I've noticed Todd that you are very reticent about commenting on my efforts. I'm not saying I'm worried, just concerned. :)

By the way PA, where's this 'ere web site you keep promising old chappy? Is Florida time the same as African time?

[Todd Bradshaw]

As far as I can tell Carole, you're doing fine. One of the nicest and least anticipated aspects of writing the book has been sitting back and watching people get inspired and create interesting stuff. Every year I get a batch of letters and e-mails showing pictures of various adaptations that readers have come up with to solve problems they encountered during their canoe-to-sailing-canoe conversions. Some are pretty crazy and some are quite innovative. If I see something that I truly don't think has a chance of working properly, or that might be dangerous, I'll chime in, but sometimes it's better to hang back and see what other folks come up with (you might invent something I need :)).

Keep in mind, too that much will be learned when you get to the shake-down cruises. With a clamp-on rig, like most canoe sailing rigs, one generally finds out that some things shake too much and others not enough. Usually there will be some things to fix, some to improve and maybe a whole new set of inspirations to pursue. Personally, I would be bored to tears on a sailboat where everything worked great all the time and there wasn't constantly something to upgrade, adjust or re-design. Canoes with home-built rigs are an excellent and generally pretty affordable excuse to be creative.

[Pernicious Atavist]

Diamond--PC.
Okay, I've been waiting on a server. My IT person has it, but then her router went kaput, so now I'm waiting on that! Once it does come up, I will have to move it to a professional server. We're looking at 15 Jan.
All this delay has given me time to do things to improve the mag before it goes public.
Of course, there will always be whiners....

[DiamondBullet]

Steady on old chap! Just keeping you on your toes PA like you do me. Your thread has been a little dormant lately you must admit. You must entertain your audience!! They are waiting.:-)

Thanks for your encouragement, Todd. I don't have anyone professional to turn to here. I hope you get royalties on your book. If it wasn't for that book I wouldn't have ventured into this project. I had trawled the web and there was very little considering it's a big wide world out there. Your superbly informative illustrations were key to my understanding. I can read instructions over and over sometimes and still not get it. I think it is because my mind is graphical. Seeing a diagram helps enormously. Your book is going to be a bit grubbier by the end, but it will have been thumbed well.

My partner started to make the leeboard clamps last night and I took some photos. Did some more varnishing. I intend to turn the toggles but couldn't find any suitable wood last night. I'll have another look today. Found some suitable polypropylene rope to thread them with.

[Pernicious Atavist]

Todd's book is great, isn't it? That's why he volunteered to be one of my contributing editors!

Diamond...how long before your project is complete? Send some pics, won't you? This first issue will have nothing about kayaks, but I do hope to have at least one article each issue.

Okay, we're off to Miami; can't entertain you you this weekend, love.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Royalties? Sometimes it's difficult to picture them as such. I get a bit under $2 per copy sold - better than nothing, but writing obscure boating books is not a particularly profitable venture considering all the work involved in getting the thing written and published. The reward is more a matter of seeing what people do with it and the interesting possibility that somebody a few generations from now might pick up a copy and get inspired to build a rig and go sailing. Since the sails I build, like any sails, have a fairly short lifespspan, I expect that most will be gone from use and UV within fifteen to twenty years at most. It's nice to leave something else behind that will last longer.

[Ahimsakid]

Yes Todd, I think a long-term legacy lays in your book . . . content full and so dense with good info . . . bound to be a classic your grandkids can dig out with pride . . . if they aren't too busy with their hoverboard rigs from Szechuan or sumfin.

Carole . . . Go Girl! All that great color . . . and spiffy toggles. You got me thinking about stealing your design! I'd like to figure a good way to cinch up the line. . . (yes I know you didn't draw to scale, I'm a bit of a control freak). They have springloaded sliding clamp/buttons . . . or maybe a triple-bar backle vs. toggle on the top? Or maybe a turk's head knot that snugs up like a tautline hitch. Do you have any reefing lines in your plan? You could continue the toggle theme there. . .

I am truly looking forward to the pics of the shakedown cruise! Now I gotta get busy. I think I found my leeboard stock (and old table). . . wish I had that bandsaw you were talking about (and wishin for --if I remember right). Ah well, a few hours with the wrong tools may beat wishin and hoping. Soon I'll be posting some pics of my odd lot of items/materials and beseeching Mr. Bradshaw for tips and pointers ( I just fear my whole shebang'll be a tad more in the "crazy " than "innovative" bucket).

Meanwhile, Todd, is there anything to be gained by thinking about leather fixed to corners w/ super adhesives and then stichin it up? Can't say I've ever done much with plastic fabrics. I have a nice old leather golfbag I want to incorporate into the mix . . .It began with thinking about leather 50-cent-size reefing line reinforcement patches . . . and now I'm thinking about 8-inch leather quarter circle appliques that sandwich the nylon sail material on the corners and are stiched w a speedy awl.

[DiamondBullet]

Gosh, a lot has gone on with this thread while I haven't been looking! Been too busy chainsawing firewood.

I think everyone should buy Todd's book and make them re-publish so he gets more royalties and his book becomes a 'classic' (which I think it already is).

PA. I will be happy to contribute some meaningful pictures when things look more complete. At the moment it is like a box of interesting items with no form. Miami sounds enjoyable.

Ahimsakid - crazy sounds excellent to me. Steal our design? We would be honoured. Make it better? We would be interested. I'm not sure if the toggle/spring combo would be strong enough under real conditions, and I want the distances along the boom/yard to be the same all the way along so I can just attach the boom/yard without thinking a lot, so I was going for fixed toggles where the weight of the sail and pressure would hold them in the sleeves. I reckon I can get it a lot tighter than illustrated. Can you explain or illustrate the 'triple-bar backle and toggle'? It is an excellent idea to continue this on the reefing lines! I hadn't even though of that yet. The other advantage I thought of is that I can affix webbing sleeves all the way along, but if I have to move the sail forward or back on the mast I can just take out the toggles where they get in the way, and attach them elsewhere further along.

I wish I had that bandsaw as well! I know what you mean about getting on even with the wrong tools. A job started is a job half done. That's why I try to just do something on the project most days, no matter how small. Keeping up the momentum is everything and it is easily lost. I've found that even doing a couple of lines of stitching, or just some measuring, keeps it in my mind and moving along. I could probably go for it in large chunks, but sometimes you can get burned out on things that way, and if you have to take a break from it you lose the thread (pun). Having an interested partner also helps (and he's handy on a lathe!) I'm going to need a full weekend in the sun to get the mast fitted, but the rest now can be done in little chunks. I need the mast on to get the leeboard arrangement measured properly (which is my last bugbear). By that point the sight of the end of the project will be enough to keep things rolling. Then the fear of its performance will cut in!

Leather sounds a bit snazzy! You'll maybe need a pricking wheel to mark regular stitch holes so it looks neat. In the past I used waxed thread on my leather projects. I'm not sure what you would best use on this (Todd?). It sounds sort of traditional to me so I think it would look quite nice. I could imagine some tooled and patterned leather maker's patch sitting on there somewhere looking swish. Can't wait to follow your project on here. Go for it mate! Spring is on the way. The sap is rising!!!!!

[Todd Bradshaw]

Most of the leather used on sails is put there for chafe protection (the edges of corner assemblies in particular) and our sails tend to be small enough that they don't get the kind of chafe that you might encounter on larger sailboats. You can certainly leather any parts you desire, and there is nothing at all wrong with the way it nicely finishes off a corner, but whether it will ever truly be needed there is a different issue.

I think you could augment fabric reinforcing patches with it, perhaps with something in mind like adding a little more bulk to thin corner or reef patch assemblies to give grommets a better purchase, though I'm not so sure that I would replace the fabric patches with it. Leather is not particularly stable, size-wise in a sometimes wet, sometimes dry marine environment. It also tends to be rather non-directional in terms of stretch, unlike woven cloth. The key to good patch assemblies that set without wrinkles is a very controlled and gradual buildup of thickness and fabric bias stability. This is achieved by making sure that the weave of all your layers is pointing the same direction. I think I'd hold off on leathering areas until I got within a couple inches of the corner, or maybe a 2" circular spot around a reef grommet. By that time, you have generally created enough stability through the buildup of cloth layers that plunking down a hefty chunk of other material won't make a "hard" spot or unwanted crease.

It doesn't take a very big irregularity to make a wrinkle in a sail. A mis-aligned fitting or just a glitch in the sail-to-spar lacing can often do it. Most small wrinkles aren't at all critical in terms of performance and there are enough cloth alignment compromizes in sails to cause others, but when you made the sail yourself, it's as much an issue of pride as it is performance. You want to give your sail every opportunity to set nicely and much of this is just paying careful attention to how you build up reinforced areas. At one point, back in the days when I was building modern, radially-cut sails from exotic fabrics, I even started building sails with little or no added corner patches. They had corners and those corners were sometimes up to ten layers thick, but it was all created with the way that the fan-shaped radial panels of the sail sections were shaped and came together in the corner areas. The wedge-shaped panels in a radial and the weave of the cloth that make up those panels are aligned to follow the stresses on the sail - putting strength and stability where it's needed most. Rather than drop an additional stack of small radial panels on top of them at each corner to create the corner patches (the way it's normally done) I was doing it by carefully widening each panel beyond it's normal edges and essentially turning the entire section into a thickness-tapered corner patch. It made some gorgeous-looking sails that had very smooth thickness transitions, but the layout process was mind-boggling and they took forever to design and cut. In general though, and without taking it quite to this extreme, just about anything you can do to make the transitions from one layer of cloth in the middle of the sail to many layers at the corners just as smooth as possible is worth doing and anything that might disrupt those transitions is questionable.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20photos/Mini-12%204%20copy.jpg

[DiamondBullet]

Todd, I think I may leave it a while before trying the sail illustrated!!! Out of interest, how many sails do you reckon to have created to date? You must rightly be very proud of your achievements. I recommend everyone who reads this thread to have a go at making a sail. It is definitely an art as well as a skill, which is something I have learned while creating ours. I think the actual process of having a go has refined my appreciation of your high standards and technical craftsmanship. It isn't as easy as it looks. Although my efforts aren't half as bad as I anticipated, they certainly don't come close to the beauty of your creations. And it has taken me an age to make it! But, despite all that, there is a very high level of satisfaction even at my modest level. I want to see some other people on this forum enjoying this experience and like ahimsakid, making their crazy dreams into reality. This sail will have carried us forwards in more ways than on the wind. I can remember the excitement of using the downwind sail and watching a bow wave form at the front of the kayak as we moved. I'm going to be in a state of ecstacy if the lugsail works to even half its efficiency!

Ahimsakid... corner panels and leather will still look good.

I tried to look out some appropriate wood to make some toggles today and couldn't find enough. So I had a rethink (again!). To keep the weight down I'm going to use sections of the tent pole I have left over, with holes drilled to take the rope. I was thinking about extra toggles for the reefing, when my partner reminded me I was a plonker and didn't need extra toggles. I can just have webbing with slits and use the toggles along the boom. This thing is getting so close to being done it's scary.

[Todd Bradshaw]

I don't actually know how many I've built. I have over 100 different previous building plans in the computer and have built multiple copies of a few of the popular ones, so it's probably somewhere in the 100-150 range. Not a lot for a commercial establishment, but not bad for someone who works alone with no employees available to do the grunt work. For a long time, a large percentage of the business was repair work (deadly boring, but if you do enough of it you certainly learn what works and what falls apart and it pays well) and I also built a lot of boat covers, sail covers, etc. along with some strange one-off projects. These days, it's just small traditional sails.

[DiamondBullet]

150 seems like a vast amount of sails to me! The advantage of being a small operation is the control you have over quality, and the artisan skill for one-offs which bigger concerns may not want to touch. The world needs the small businessman (and the teacher who knows his/her stuff). Have you ever considered teaching your craft in institutions or getting an apprentice to pass your individual knowledge to one-to-one? If your knees are feeling the strain you should get some younger ones doing it for you! I bet you could get a whole class building all those wacky sails you never got around to and you could get them testing them as well. You seem such a good communicator.

Last night I cut the toggles and drilled the holes. At the moment I have made enough for sixteen sets, eight top and bottom. The fibreglass tent pole is a bit dodgy when cutting and sanding as it produces some wierd smelling fine dust so I recommend a face mask. I got a couple of invisible splinters from it so I should have worn gloves. My partner has made the inserts for the barrels and has started on the barrels for the leeboard clamps. He has to get a special tool for cutting a slot in the barrels on the lathe – a keyway cutter. I put coat number five on the front of the leeboards, masthead and base. I'll take a few piccies today.

The toggles have a really nice tactile feel, like gaming counters or beads, when you move a few in your hands. They seem very right for the job with their simplicity. I found a spring toggle I had kept off a bag yesterday. I think it could slip under strain. Judging by how much pressure I've seen our Spirit sail under, they may break.

My partner pointed out that Ahimsakid meant buckles on his previous response (I'm a bit literal sometimes). I think he means those slip buckles you get on camera cases and other bags with webbing straps. That's an interesting idea which could be good for me to hold the battens in either end. I was going to use velcro, but I'm not sure about its holding capabilities under strain. I think that looping sixteen buckles on the boom and yard could be tedious, but just three on the batten ends would be acceptable and would hold fine.

I'll cut out the webbing to take the toggles today and make a test one first.

[Todd Bradshaw]

No one in their right mind would work for me. I'm too much of a perfectionist - just ask my wife.

There is really only one good way that I know of to use velcro for holding the battens in batten pockets. It works very well, but is kind of a pain to deal with. It's used on some racing sailboats with full-length mainsail battens - especially those where they don't want any batten excess hanging out past the leech where it might catch on backstays when tacking.

Here is a tiny PDF drawing (12KB) that shows how to make them.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Sail%20photos/!VELCROB.PDF

#1 - You start by sewing a strip of velcro about 4"-5" long (usually the loop side) to a short chunk of webbing. The web needs to be about 2" longer than the velcro, with 1" of exposed webbing sticking out on either end. It doesn't need to be particularly heavy webbing, but should be wide enough to fill most of the inside width of your batten pocket.

#2 - fold the excess web on one end back over the velcro and sew it down along the EDGES ONLY. You're making a little pocket on one end.

#3 - lay the sail on the floor, lay the web chunk where the pocket's aft end will eventually be so that it hangs off the leech edge and the velcro side is against the floor. Sew the non-pocketed end of the web chunk down to the sail's leech.

#4 - Sew the remaining half of the velcro (usually the hook side) to the strip of fabric that will be sewn down to make the batten pocket. The velcro goes at the aft end of the pocket and is sewn to the inside surface of the pocket strip (it will be inside the pocket). Now sew the pocket down along it's edges. Note: I drew straight stitches for all sewing because I'm too lazy to draw zig-zags. Normally, most stitching would actually be zig-zag on the sail parts and can be either zig-zag or straight stitches on the web.
.
#5 - Stuff the batten into the completed pocket. It should be cut to length to fill the pocket, but should not hang out the back end. Now find a flat stick or something like a table knife. We're going to fold the web chunk at the leech and stick it in the pocket as well, over the back end of the batten so that the velcro strips meet, securing the batten in the pocket. Neatly mating velcro inside a pocket isn't easy. To help, you put the end of the table knife or flat stick into the small pocket at the end of the web strip and push the strip all the way in before squeezing the velcro tightly together.

When removing a batten, you work the knife in, between the two hunks of velcro to separate them, slide the webbing out and then pull the batten out. This type of pocket is extremely secure. Some people even add a small loop of cord at the fold in step#2 when making the web chunk to give something to grip when pulling the web out to change battens.

[DiamondBullet]

That's an excellent idea, but I have a problem as I'm using tent poles and not flat battens and they fit pretty snugly in their sleeves i.e. no room for velcro on the inside of the sleeve. I should have thought more about the problem before sewing the sleeves, but with the widths of webbing I am using it would still have been very tight with almost no room to move. My intention was to have a lapped over strip on the outside, which is where I think there may be chance of it springing apart under pressure with velcro, hence my possible adoption of a small buckle. I'm still chewing the cud on this one. (silly moo!:))

[DiamondBullet]

I managed to sew on one set of tabs last night. I had to hand sew the end ones through all the thick layers of corner material, but the others were OK on the sewing machine. I'm going to put in some stitching at the ends of the slits in the webbing just to make sure they don't pull apart at these weak spots. I'll try and photograph this but it may not show up too well due to black on black webbing with black stitching!! This here silly moo still hasn't chewed the cud enough on the batten issue, but that will be a small problem now the sail is nearing completion. I may have to think of udder ways so the cream of my ideas can rise to the top. (sorry PA, I know you will hate these bad puns)

I can't wait to hang the sail up and see how it looks on the yard. Although with gales forecast I may have to, or you may see it flying past your house Todd, after a trip across the Atlantic!

[DiamondBullet]

I'm sorry I haven't contributed for a while. I've had a bit of illness and didn't feel up to much.

Before I got poorly I managed to finish off the tabs and was halfway through the toggles. Last night I managed some varnishing and my partner used the drill sharpener so I will put up some pictures.

I had a quick look at PA's new canoe site, but haven't had a chance to read it properly which makes me feel a bit of a poo sack after nagging him. I wouldn't have taken much in anyway so I will devote more time now I'm better. I would just like to congratulate him on his sterling efforts and thank him for making such a good job. I will contribute some stuff when we get the sail finished and assessed. All I have to do on the sail now is webbing the edging to finish and sort the reefing toggles. Then I may set up the mast off the kayak to see how it hangs, to coin a phrase! And to try to sort the rigging matters.

[boatbear]

Ah DB, I hope your partner has been bringing you steaming cups of tea and making sure you are comfortable.
Charlie

[Pernicious Atavist]

Diamond, feel better soon! Thanks for the comments, but don't feel like a poo sac...poo sac? Anyway...I'm used to being nagged; I have a woman (a Brit, actually) in my life, so nagging is something I deal with, like taxes...bad breath...lousy weather...sore back...............

[DiamondBullet]

The diamond is feeling a bit sharper today, (less like a poo sack) and thanks you all for your kind comments! Yes, lots of Redbush tea plus hot choccie with whiskey in! It's worth getting ill for. I got some more thread in the post today as I'd run out.

PA, what a fortunate man you are to have a British lady nagging you. Bet you love it really:)

[Pernicious Atavist]

Fortunate she's a nagger, or a Lobsterback?

[DiamondBullet]

I canna ken that? Is it U.S. slang for something?

[Pernicious Atavist]

Yeah, you understand....<wink wink>
Feelin' better, darlin'?

[DiamondBullet]

Feelin' fine honeybunch...

Looked it up and now understand. Boy! You lot have long memories! We love you anyway! It's a good term I can bamboozle the locals with though. The only army slang I use is SNAFU. About sums up most of my days! Especially as I cannot use the sewing machine to finish the edges, I am having to hand sew the ***!!*?** things.

Have a good weekend.

[Ahimsakid]

Diamond: PA is using a term that became popular nearly two centuries ago during the American War of 1812. The British "redcoats" were also called lobsterbacks . . . Today, especially considering the US role in world affairs, I'm sure you might respond by calling him a Colonial(ist).

[Pernicious Atavist]

Diamond, didn't realize you wouldn't ken that term. My Limey does, but she's been here awhile. She's pretty posh, you know, though she'll never admit it!
Glad to hear you're rasslin' with the stitching. You do know I have a page or two reserved for your project when [if] it gets done [within my lifetime].

[boatbear]

Crikey! There's somebody else in here! Hide the grog.
Charlie

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Jim,

Sorry to have upset you, I thought the bilge was for people with a grudge and I don't like to be in that category. Just keeping some hilarity in here while I try to get the sail finished so interested people can see it. Why should'nt Todd have some infamy? He's helped me to design and make a sail I wouldn't have dreamed of creating. If you have an issue over this maybe YOU should take it to the bilge. I'll stay here and continue with my sail.

You can get the grog out again Charlie!

[DiamondBullet]

I've had a few thoughts about the comments and have decided that it may be best to continue on Ed's new site as it is more appropriate to canoe sailing and I'm not even doing this on a wooden boat! I think what I will do is assemble a good load of pictures and data and send it for display there. This thread is probably getting frayed and tired and has achieved its purpose i.e. designing and planning the sail. I may still ask Todd a couple of questions on here as I have no other means of contacting him but obviously some senior members think it is time to can it and being a junior how can I dispute that? I hope our previous exchanges have helped someone else out there. I would just like to say thanks again to Todd and the other contributors for a very entertaining time! Go to PA's site, I've had a read and it is very interesting. I'll stay with this site as well, but be hands-off for a while.

[boatbear]

Hey DB, Jim is only taking the pi$$! You, as a Brit, should have good radar for irony. (very few other cultures tolerate a monarchy).
He has obviously read a lot of the thread, and I would say he has enjoyed it as much as I (and all the quiet lurkers) have. Please stay. We are learning heaps and really enjoying it.
Charlie

[DiamondBullet]

As I haven't had much comms with Jim previously it is hard to judge his level of irony! My radar must be playing up or I'm having a girly hormone reaction. We brits may appreciate irony but we also have some peculiar buggers who take issue with anything. I wasn't sure which category he fell into. Now if it was PA I would know the level of irony!! I can see Jim's point though and can see us straying from the theme. I'm going to try to keep it on the downwind course, nice and steady. Sail design only.

I won't comment on the monarchy bit or I'll be in the bilge!

See, it's slipping already. I'll still put stuff up on Ed's site, though, as this thread is getting a little difficult for even me to navigate. I couldn't find the bit about the rigging the other day (found it in the end). I think it needs some pulling together into a more coherent format. If I was starting out on it I would have given up before reaching here.

I'll put something else up when I have a more substantial amount to add. At the moment I'm still hand sewing the edges and varnishing the other side of the leeboards.

[Pernicious Atavist]

Diamond, darlin', bear's right....just ignore those who would take [obvious and way too easily had] advantage of your girlyness....there, there...ol' PA will take care of you, snugglewumpus....now, where's Pooh when you need a friend?

POOH!
POOH!

Oh, darn, no Pooh....

[boatbear]

DB, the digressions and banter are important to this thread and are perfectly acceptable. When I blundered upon it quite late in the piece, I read it from start to finish, and found it extraordinary for its fine level of clear and concise communication and detail. The thread fully documents a learning experience that others can and will appreciate in the future. Your candour and willingness to learn are refreshing. There is real design work going on here, and real construction. There is also fun and sociability, which is what life should be about. I send thanks to you and TB and PA and the others who have made this thread of such value.
Charlie

ps: re varnishing the leeboards, have you had some warmer weather or have you moved them into the kitchen? Here is a candid pic of my kitchen this morning. I am stripping some carburettors from Brunhilde, the ol' BMW. There are lots more motorbike bits on the coffee table in the lounge room. Grin.

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL405/8230927/15385054/300773193.jpg

[Ahimsakid]

What boatbear said! Nuthin wrong with a steady stream of good info served up with bon homme spirit and womanist invention. Now, tt seems as though the post by Jim has been taken down. Irony? Snarkiness? I'll not say . . .

HOWEVER . . . . I will admit to feeling uncomfortable over keeping our mentor's name constantly in the most-recently-posted-to queue. DB, what would you say to moving the thread . . . (seeing as how you're all about that sort of thing these days). Reader's of this thread will look forward to visiting it in the wonderful archives . . . and we carry on under another thread with a less (did Jim say infamy?) personalized subject line.

Your call, DB, just a thought . . .

You could call the next thread whatever you like :-)

[Todd Bradshaw]

Gee, I was kind of enjoying my fifteen minutes of fame.... Actually, this thread will eventually have some problems as an archive. My web closet is provided by my ISP for free (I'm too cheap to buy a website) but is only 20 Mb of storage space, which fills up quickly. Every once in a while, I have to go in and clean out old stuff to make room for current stuff so the drawings and diagrams in this thread will most likely eventually end up being those little boxes with a red X in the middle. If you want copies of any of them you should save them to your drive while they're still available. Carole, my e-mail address is also in my profile in case you ever have questions that you don't feel you want to post on the forum.

[DiamondBullet]

What a nice lot you are! And that isn't ironic!

I never started out on this thread with anything in mind and am surprised as the rest of you as to how it has turned out. It has got rather large with a surprising amount of information on. I'll start on a new thread and call it something like the continuation of kayak chinese lugsail.

When a bad comment is taken down who does it? Is it the originator? I hope I didn't upset Jim by getting the wrong end of the stick. I wasn't feeling top notch last week. If I can compile all of Todd's stuff as well as my own I will stick it up on a link to my site (I haven't checked my site's capacity yet). Do I archive the site or does the helmsman do it?

Todd, I'll get all the stuff off in a couple of days so you can clean out your closet. I'll let you know on the new thread I make.

P.S. Weather is very nice here at the moment. Sunny and mild. Not at all how January should be. We've been desperately cutting trees and vines over the weekend before the sap gets going. I'm going to photograph a couple of poplars to show the grain to put up on my other thread, which I will re-start in the correct section. I really do still feel new to this forum thingy!

[boatbear]

Go DB! I am glad to hear you're back on deck, and I'm looking forward to seeing your new thread here. I think somebody contacted Jim and suggested he remove his post - which I still believe was a bit of fun, perhaps at Todd's expense, and not meant to offend anybody. It would have been better if he had clarified that of course.

I'm going to go through the whole thread and save all the useful bits, probably pasting them into Word docs, saving all those excellent illustrations as well. I might just get around to making a stripper one day (Peterborough or English 20 - the agony of decision!). If that happens, a cute junk sail would have to be part of the project.
Charlie

ps: Design/Plans is the correct location for your thread.

[DiamondBullet]

BB, I didn't have much time to answer you yesterday, but I do like your kitchen. What happens when you need to do some cooking? Do you do all your cake mixing in the garage?:) (see, I put a smiley to make sure you know I'm being funny!) I must admit a fair bit of sailmaking/glueing/drilling etc goes on in our kitchen, but as it is the size of a rabbit hutch there are a few restrictions!

We'll have to make the Peterborough together on a single thread. That way we can offend twice as many people (ironic!). I think Jim had the immaculate timing of catching me on the wrong day and I apologise to him. I don't want it to get round us brits are a bunch of pillocks! Now to make the new thread. The other thread I had was about processing Poplar wood and I don't think it should have been in the design/plans section.

[DiamondBullet]

I've started a new thread and am closing this one. I'm compiling this one into a pdf document which I will provide a link for on the new thread. TTFN That's all folks!!