Cruise ship hitting ice near Antarctica

[Timo_N62.9_E27.7]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7108835.stm

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/23/antarctica.ship/index.html

[Bill R]

I saw the video on the news. Doesn't look good for the ship, but the CG says all passengers have been rescued.

[Timo_N62.9_E27.7]

The reports said there was a hole the size of a fist. And the ship is sinking!

Don't they have pumps onboard?

The vessel was built here in Finland, what should I say? :confused:

[Bill R]

Latest report has all 154 passengers and crew onboard a Norwegian cruise ship headed to St. Georges Island.

The ill fated ship is expected to go completely under at any time.

[Rational Root]

Ain't you ever here of My Brother Sylvest....

"He' got an arm like a leg BIG LEG! And a punch that would sink a battleship, BIG SHIP!"

That's a BIG FIST

Don't mess with Sylvest.


The reports said there was a hole the size of a fist. And the ship is sinking!

Don't they have pumps onboard?

The vessel was built here in Finland, what should I say? :confused:

[Kim Whitmyre]

That's one "eco cruise" that is going to have a non-eco ending. . .

[Henning 4148]

The story in the German news says, Captain and one officer are assumed to still be on the ship, trying to save it.

No idea if it is true ...

[Dave Lesser]

Not looking very good. (NY Times photo)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2093/2057437441_6417e6b20f_o.jpg

[Gary E]

WTF are those idiots doing in that area of the world anyway without an icebreaker?
I hope the insur co canceled that idiots policy or charged the cost of the boat for the trip...

[Paul Girouard]

A fist sized hole sinks a steel hulled boat in 2007!!!! What about closing a water tight hatch and stopping the flooding? Was this ship German made ?

[Tristan]

Well if the damned hole is on the low side they're screwed! Maybe by now the hole has rolled clear of the water (but at that list they're taking water in everywhere)

[Paul Girouard]

Well if the damned hole is on the low side they're screwed! Maybe by now the hole has rolled clear of the water (but at that list they're taking water in everywhere)

My reference was to the original hole and how a fist sized hole could take on enough water, long enough to sink/ over come the pumps ,( one would think a ship of that size should be carrying as SOP) , a steel hulled ship :rolleyes:

Yes a moot point now, those cruise ships are death traps if you ask me. Either the crews , the designers , the mission , are wrong. If they don't try to drowned the guest they make them sick with the $hits , or worst.

[Gary E]

That boat was junk....
lets start with .....
The Explorer, which carries a Liberian flag,
in other words, lets get by with as little as possible
never mind... it's got a Flag of convience... screw the passengers and the crew.... we got money to make...


Following the news of the incident, the specialist Lloyds List maritime publication said the 2,400-tonne Explorer had five faults at its last inspection.
"These were not huge problems and were all rectified before the vessel sailed. It would not have been allowed to depart if everything had not been sorted out," MCA spokesman Mark Clarke told PA news.


sure... and there's this bridge i got for sale... you interested?? make ya good deal



'Deficiencies'
According to a report on Lloyds List's website, the Explorer was found to have five "deficiencies" at an inspection in May at Greenock, Scotland, by the UK's Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA).
Watertight doors were described as "not as required", while lifeboat maintenance problems and missing search and rescue plans were also noted.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote_rb.gif The hull has a hole the size of a fist and the outlook is not so positive for the ship at the moment http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote_rb.gif


Chilean port inspectors also found six deficiencies during an inspection in Puerto Natales in March, including two related to navigation matters, said Lloyds List.


Susan Hayes, vice-president of marketing for Gap Adventures

marketing ???? uhh ok.... wouldnt care to hear from the pres of the co??? or is he too busy on vacation in the Med...


Watertight doors were described as "not as required", while lifeboat maintenance problems and missing search and rescue plans were also noted.


We were passing through ice as usual but this time something hit the hold and we got a little leakage downstairs http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote_rb.gif

Peter Svensson
first officer

[Rob Stokes, N. Vancouver]

Pretty impressive that it's not rolling over when laying like that..

Rob

[mmd]

My, my... Such vitriol for a situation that we know so little about! A fist-sized hole is admittedly not a big deal on a large ship, unless the bilge pump clogs and enough water gets into the hold to cause instability due to free-surface effects (you do know about free-surface effects on stability, don't you?), which in some cases isn't very much water. And sometimes ships are registered under 'flags of convenience" to save money so that fares are affordable to others than the super-rich, not because the ships are floating rust-buckets. Also, the MCA has pretty stringent inspection procedures - if an infraction is "minor", then it is minor. Minor like, "please affix non-skid tape to the boarding steps of the liferaft" or "this chart expired last month, please replace it". The VP of Marketing was probably the only person in the office not directly engaged in the rescue & recovery operations, so she was available to be the spokesperson.

Some of you folks sure are quick to pillory others on pretty scant information and even less understanding of which you speak ...

Oh, and Rob Stokes; she is able to lay over like that because of good construction, regular maintenance, watertight doors that are closed in an emergency, etc., etc.

[JimD]

From the photo its hard to tell where the ice might be but I think I can just make some out. Then again I always did have a keen eye for those things. Maybe if I'd been on the bridge....

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2093/2057437441_6417e6b20f_o.jpg

[Gary E]

My, my... Such vitriol for a situation that we know so little about! A fist-sized hole is admittedly not a big deal on a large ship,

So why did the not so much a problem result in THIS Situation???

unless the bilge pump clogs and enough water gets into the hold to cause instability due to free-surface effects (you do know about free-surface effects on stability, don't you?), which in some cases isn't very much water.
more guessing here???
The damn hole is big enough to cause major damage..unless the photo is a lie...


And sometimes ships are registered under 'flags of convenience" to save money so that fares are affordable to others than the super-rich, not because the ships are floating rust-buckets. Also, the MCA has pretty stringent inspection procedures - if an infraction is "minor", then it is minor. Minor like, "please affix non-skid tape to the boarding steps of the liferaft" or "this chart expired last month, please replace it". The VP of Marketing was probably the only person in the office not directly engaged in the rescue & recovery operations, so she was available to be the spokesperson.[/quote]

possible,,, but maybe the pres was off reading to a group of 3'rd graders called "my little pet boat co" Why NOT regester in the boat in it's home port ?? regs to tight?? nahh... just easier to use a country that has lax standards...

Some of you folks sure are quick to pillory others on pretty scant information and even less understanding of which you speak ..
quoting the BBC and CNN... and if this was a good boat, why was it in such trouble??

Oh, and Rob Stikes; she is able to lay over like that because of good construction, regular maintenance, watertight doors that are closed in an emergency, etc., etc.

What water tight doors... read the report...
Quote:
Watertight doors were described as "not as required", while lifeboat maintenance problems and missing search and rescue plans were also noted.

MMD are you defending these people because they are right? or just because you can?
I see this from a consumer point of view where this Co uses every rule in the book to avoid providing the best and safest possible boat run by the best trained people they can find... Instead they regester to boat in a 3rd world country that lets them get away with minimal requirements... all legal of course...

[AlanL]

Not looking very good. (NY Times photo)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2093/2057437441_6417e6b20f_o.jpg

Hmm, is that a crew of psychotic penguins I see down there? ;)

[JimD]

Hmm, is that a crew of psychotic penguins I see down there? ;)

If they were off their meds that could be a significant contributing factor.

[Paul Girouard]

MMD are you defending these people because they are right?

or just because you can?



Maybe :

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/23/antarctica.ship/index.html

said the boat is owned by Gap Adventures, based in Toronto, Canada.



Commendable BUT a ship that size should no sink due to one fist sized hole.

[Gary E]

Maybe :

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/23/antarctica.ship/index.html

said the boat is owned by Gap Adventures, based in Toronto, Canada.



Commendable BUT a ship that size should no sink due to one fist sized hole.


Keep reading....from the same site you posted....
The Explorer, which carries a Liberian flag,

Whats the matter with the owner not regestering the boat in the country he lives in?..
somethings just wrong about this...

[BrianW]

Some ship facts from their website...



Explorer Quick Facts

* lounge and onboard library
* fully outfitted lecture hall
* small gym, sauna and pool
* all cabins with private bath and outside view
* dining room serving international cuisine
* medical clinic and onboard doctor
* gift shop
* topside observation deck with 360-degree unobstructed view
* double, ice-hardened hull ice rating 1A1 ice A
* large fleet of Zodiacs with clean 4-stroke engines

[BrianW]

Another observation, and hopefully some of you big ship guys can help me out here...

In the picture above, there's a large black streak going down the portside bottom. It's been my experience running boats in ice, that the ice tends to clean, if not downright polish, below the waterline.

Any thoughts on that streak?

[Paul Girouard]

Keep reading....from the same site you posted....


Whats the matter with the owner not regestering the boat in the country he lives in?..
somethings just wrong about this...

I saw that , and IMO your right. It cheaper to do it that way and it's all about the dollar.

My own experience with Liberian registered ship involved a ship wreck as well , in the Straits of Malacca. A national Chinese owned , Liberian reg oil tanker , changing course repeatedly clipped us across the starboard bow tearing a hole back to the 37th frame , he was towed to Singapore , we limped back to the PI , Subic Bay.

That was no accident but the Liberian flag helped with testy international issues I'm sure.

Brian, I think that a oil streak from the / a fuel tank that was breached, at least that's what it looks like to me.

[Dave Fleming]

She's gone now.

[rbgarr]

One of the reports said that there were cracks in the hull as well as the hole. I'd definitely want off if I'd been a passenger.

[mmd]

Gary, with all due respect, I am possibly a bit more likely to understand how this sinking occurred than the regular guy in the street. Am I guessing about the details and scenario? Of course I am, but then so are you. What I am objecting to in your histrionics is your blind presumption that because the ship was Liberian registered it was by definition "a piece of junk". Maybe it was, but the fact that a respectable marine agency such as the British Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) accepted it as seaworthy for its intended voyage indicates otherwise. As well, the vessel was designed and built specifically for polar cruising (i.e., had a strengthened hull for navigating in ice) and has a long history of successful arctic and antarctic voyages to her credit. She was the first passenger ship to cross the Northwest Passage - twice. In 1997, she became the first passenger ship to circumnavigate James Clark Ross Island, Antarctica. This was no rust-bucket put into danger by inexperienced money-grubbing shysters. To assume that all ships registered in Liberia are badly-managed, unsafe, poorly-navigated vessels makes as much sense as saying that all Americans are gun-toting, obnoxious boors. Both statements are undoubtably true in some few cases, but it cannot be said of all.

Did you know that the Liberian Ship Registry was conceived for Liberia and was founded in 1948 under the leadership of Edward R. Stettinius, U.S. Secretary of State , and operated out of offices in - ready? - 99 Park Avenue, New York?

[Ian Marchuk]

Well said Mr. Mason.....

[JimD]

Ooooh. So it was one of those Park Avenue ships. No wonder she sank.

[Steve Paskey]

Did you know that the Liberian Ship Registry was conceived for Liberia and was founded in 1948 under the leadership of Edward R. Stettinius, U.S. Secretary of State , and operated out of offices in - ready? - 99 Park Avenue, New York?

And they're now in Vienna, Virginia, of all places:
www.liscr.com/

[Ron Williamson]

Maybe it was a FIT sized hole
http://automobiles.honda.com/fit/
R

[Sailor]

LOL No I distinctly heard the woman say FIST. Nice try though. I tend to side with MMD but I still don't understand how a fist sized hole could sink a ship that size. What about cross flooding? Opening WT bulkhead doors to allow the pumps more access to the water? Must be the cracks that came with it. If something punches a fist sized hole, the attendant cracks must be pretty large. Stick them down low enough and I can see how a civilian vessel may not be able to keep up with the ingress. We have pumps in our navy that could empty an olympic swiming pool in minutes. (gas turbine powered pumps) I don't think many civilian ships could affort the gas to operate one of those. I guess we'll know more as the investigation unfolds. Once the report comes out we should start this thread back up again and continue the discussion. I'm sure many will delete their posts at that time so as not to look too gung ho about the aforementioned pillory.

[Gary E]

Gap Adventures,
http://www.gapadventures.com/?home=1


Small Group Adventure Tours

Since 1990, we have specialized in unique, small group outdoor adventure travel. We strive to show you the real world by taking you off the beaten track to the heart of the destination, and to meet the locals who call it home. If you have a lust for life and a curiosity for culture, we invite you to explore our website and immerse yourself in our addictive world of adventure travel!


It's a TOUR and Adventure Co... in the US we call them Travel Agents...

So they own the boat?... maybe, maybe not...

http://www.tc.gc.ca/ShipRegistry/list.asp?lang=e&Official_Number=&ship_name_search=starts_with&Ship_Name=Explorer&submit=Search

The above was no help because it's NOT A CANADIAN SHIP anymore....it's LIBERIAN
Would have to get into the boats history to ferret this out...

Even if that boat did qualify for it's intended duty, why is it not regestered in it's so called home of Canada?...only a few reasons come to mind...
Liberia requires LESS
Less of everything...

Anyone getting on a boat regestered in that country is leaving their own country behind, all you have to do is read about the other cruise lines that haul people on vacation all over the world and when something drastic happens they find out their home country is not involved, tuff luck, your on a Liberian Flag boat in some waters you claim should have authority?... ha ha ha

This travel agent knows how to protect his @$$ ...not yours...

[mmd]

Gary, if you calm down the rhetoric, you may be able to come away from this with a bit better knowledge of how international shipping works; if you continue your aggressive diatribe you will alienate those of us here who may be able to provide you with information.

Why do ship owners register their ships in "flag of convenience" (FOC) countries? Because your and my countries' governments have made ship ownership too expensive to register at home. For example, your country levies a 55% tax on ship repairs done in foreign ports to American-registered ships. From the optimistic viewpoint, this places the onus on American owners of American ships to have their repairs done in American shipyards, thereby protecting American jobs. On the face of it, a noble idea. The practicality of it is a different story, though. Most ships spend 90% of their lives away from their home ports, and damage doesn't wait 'till they get home. So, consider this scenario:

You own a medium-sized freighter that carries goods from Baltimore to Bermuda, Trinidad and various other South American ports. One dark night off the Venezualan coast your ship hits a semi-submerged container and holes her bow, bad enough to threaten to sink the ship. You put into the nearest port, Port-of-Spain, Trinidad, that has a ship repair facility and make repairs good enough to get you home to Baltimore, where you will effect a permanent repair. The fees for slipping the ship, inspecting the damage, making repairs, and having the repairs inspected by your insurer and shipping authorities totals $200,000. When you get home, you find a bill from Uncle Sam for another $110,000. This is in effect a fine for having an accident in foreign waters. With this kind of drain on your company finances, why wouldn't you consider placing your ship in register in a country that doesn't penalize you for things that you can't help? Besides, being the concientious and professional business guy you are, you'll keep you ship classed under the American Bureau of Shipping regulations and in good order no matter where you register it, so why not save a few extra bucks? That, my friend, is one of the reasons why most commercial ships in the world are registerd in FOC countries.

And G.A.P. Adventure Tours is as much of a travel agency as, say, Carnival Cruises is. Both provide a passenger service using leased equipment. In G.A.P.'s case, Liberian registry requires that the ships be owned by a Liberian-based company, so the shipowner sets up a Liberian company which buys the ship and registers it in Liberia, then leases the ship to the parent company in Canada. Carnival is headquartered in Miami and is an American company, but they lease their ships from companies they own but are located in the Bahamas, Panama, etc. to be able to avoid punative taxation and exorbitant trade union fees. It's about making (and keeping) money, not trying to avoid safety regulations and responsibilities. Isn't that the American (capitalist) way?

[Gary E]

So now we get to the meat of the matter....

These passengers are meerly FREIGHT...

GAP Adventures.....
We'll give you an adventure... more than you wanted...LOL
Suckers

MMD... when you loose your job to a cheeeper overseas designer, and you will, it's only a matter of time...
you gona use the same excuses to justify that???

[paladin]

and......as Michael may note......prior to the "fall" of the Soviet Union, Russia (Ukraine) had the largest merchant marine industry in the world.........the predominate owners of the fleet were American companies.....

[John E Hardiman]

LOL No I distinctly heard the woman say FIST. Nice try though. I tend to side with MMD but I still don't understand how a fist sized hole could sink a ship that size. What about cross flooding? Opening WT bulkhead doors to allow the pumps more access to the water? Must be the cracks that came with it. If something punches a fist sized hole, the attendant cracks must be pretty large. Stick them down low enough and I can see how a civilian vessel may not be able to keep up with the ingress. We have pumps in our navy that could empty an olympic swiming pool in minutes. (gas turbine powered pumps) I don't think many civilian ships could affort the gas to operate one of those. I guess we'll know more as the investigation unfolds. Once the report comes out we should start this thread back up again and continue the discussion. I'm sure many will delete their posts at that time so as not to look too gung ho about the aforementioned pillory.

Given some of the remarks earlier, it is apparent that some people who posted in this thread think of commerical ship damage control the same way they think of boat damage control, i.e. "pump the water out". They are in error.

First, the primary requirement of modern commerical ship damage control in the event of collision or allision is to keep the ship afloat and stable long enough to launch the boats...period. Unlike a warship there is no need to soak up damage and continue on. Additionally, the size of the design hole (10%L or 70 feet which ever is less long by 25%B into the hull from keel to deck, IIRC) precludes using pumps to survive. So merchant ships are divided into a number of large "compartments", which are usually symetric on centerline to prevent immediate capsize in the event of catastrophic damage. Unlike warships, which must minimize weapons peretration and blast damage, there is little or no watertight sub-compartmentation. Most ships are "1 compartment", i.e. they won't sink if one compartment is holed. However, if the damage crosses a bulkhead, they will sink quckly. Passanger ships are generally "2 compartment" or more for this reason. There are some quirks with this though, such as slow flood-up loss of waterplane area that capsized the MV Rocknes and a couple of other things, but in general thats it.

As to pumps on commerical ships, most of what you would think of as "bilge" pumps are actually very small, generally less than 2" in size. This is because there is no need for large pumps to dewater as the assumed damage is greater than any pump can handle, they need only handle the sweating and hatch/gland leakage in the compartment. If there is a need to dewater a compartment, then there is usually only the fire and flushing system pumps which may be plumbed to draw suction on the compartments. These pumps are generaly sized to provide fire fighting water to the hoses (usually you will only fight two 2 1/2" hose teams at a time) so the average size is ~6". Additionally, most ships will carry a couple of 2" 150 GPM portable pumps. This gives the total dewatering capability of ~ 37 in^2, or 28 in^2 in one compartment an 9 in^2 in another. A fist sized hole would be about 12 in^2 which is also equlivant to a 4 foot long crack.

So I would expect a fist sized hole and 10-15 feet of cracks split between two or more compartments to overwhelm the pumping capacity of an average ship and to slowly sink it. Remember, it was the last 2 and 1/2 feet of split plating in the forward fireroom that sank the RMS Titanic, not the other 300' of damage

[Bill R]

Thank you Mr. Mason and Mr. Hardiman.

[Dan McCosh]

Seems as if the took duplicating the voyage of the Endurance a little too literally.

[George Roberts]

Considering the weather conditions and amount of ship traffic in the area ...

I would expect any ship in the area to do more than get the passengers off, but I am not responsible for doing designs for such service.

[mizzenman]

According to the newspaper of today the pumps were able to keep the water level down. But then the electrical system broke down and she was flooded...

[Tom Robb]

The reported item that surprised me was that ice floating under water holed her. Huh?
When last I heard, ice floats with about 10% of its volume above the waterline.
Do you suppose that's just the usual uninformed "eyewitness" statement?
Perhaps a rogue lost container floating awash?

[Bill R]

More here:

http://www.cargolaw.com/2007nightmare_explorer.html

Includes some pretty impressive photos.

[Steve Paskey]

Two quick comments based on news reports I've read: first, the statement about the "fist-sized" hole comes from a very early report of the damage. Information received by the Argentine navy suggests that the damage was more extensive. Second, according to some stories power was lost due to the incoming water, and the bilge pumps were disabled.

Oops... someone else mentioned the power outage. So I'm a little slow...

[P.L.Lenihan]

Yes indeed, thank you Mr.Mason and Mr.Hardiman for your considered replies. And, Bill R, that is a great link link!

Does anyone know why the ship appears to be moving backwards,while listing, in a couple of photos shown in the sequence provided by Bill Rs' link?

Thankfully all souls were saved from what could quickly have become a total disaster. Those folks will have one hell-of-a-tale to tell when the return to their homes.A real world,real time, high seas adventure. Glad they all made it!

Peter

[JamesCaird]

Hi Guys-Thank those of you with the reasoned responses to this Explorer event. I too will look forward to the full story when it becomes better know from those who have been in it and learn from that. Meanwhile, a few points:
Explorer was a great ship, not too large to do what she has been doing for years, especially in the Antarctic Penninsula region. I have cruised and worked on her and she was a very well run and maintained vessel. She was ice strengthened and built for cruising in polar ice (not an icebreaker). As we can see from final photos her stability was considerable (I measured 60 degrees in those photos)
She was built in Finland which is the capitol of the icebreaker world! Even the Russians have their ships built in Helsinki! No one knows more about the ice than the Finns, the Russians and the Canadians. The ship crew and "expedition" crew are very, very experienced folks and do ice work all year round. I don't have to talk about registry or "deficiencies", you guys covered that.
From my own experience in the area in question: you have to see the ice to believe it! No larger moving objects on the planet (unless we count continents). Nothing will humble a cruising sailor (like us) like Big Ice. Likely Explorer did not hit any "big Ice" but more likely a growler or something difficult to see, no radar target, etc, if that really is what happened. Growlers are black or transparent, barely floating and impossible to see and night. Not difficult to calculate the mass of a 50 foot cube of black ice.
I have run Research vessels up into places in the Penninsula area which were completely uncharted. Whole bays appeared where there were none on the charts. Many places are uncharted completely. There are many places where you send the launch in ahead to sound and the primary nav tool in the wheelhouse is the searchlight sonar looking ahead as you creep forward feeling your way in. But that was for Science but I found myself using the best tools and judgement I could bring to the situation from a my cruising experience-it was like the final exam.
A few years ago another ship, Polar Star, ex-Finnish Icebreaker, very well found, while underway at 7 knots departing King Haakon Bay, South Georgia, "discovered' a pinnacle rock. She remained stuck fast for many hours, was holed taking on water. She finally freed herself and returned to Gritviken (administrative harbor around the island) where she was inspected underwater. It was determined that she was too severely damaged to continue cruise to Antarctica so returned under her own power to S. America. Things can happen when you go outside the box a bit.
Don't get all worked up about the "crowded" waters down there either. Take a look at some charts and try to get a sense of the size of the place. I can say I was working all around the South Shetlands Islands getting people into all sorts of nooks and crannies from Elephant Isle to below the Lemaire and only saw one other boat!
Can't wait to get back! Cheers and best wishes-will look forward to what we can learn/JC

[mmd]

(Edit: ) Y'know, one of the joys of cyberspace is the ability to take your words back....

[Timo_N62.9_E27.7]

The beginning of her story: launching in Uusikaupunki, Finland

http://www.uusikaupunki.fi/%7Emerihist/images/illat/2003/Explorer%208.jpg

[ssor]

Reading the final report will be interesting. I have wondered about the differences in damage control efforts exercised on warships and on commercial ships.

[seanz]

from cargolaw:
M/V Explorer -- At Home In The Ice For Over 30 Years Fitted With A Double, Ice-Hardened Hull Ice Rating 1A1 Ice A
The First Passenger Vessel To Navigate The North West Passage In 1984

Now she's the first cruise ship to sink in the Southern Ocean :(

[skuthorp]

She was close enough for the rescue services to reach her, what if she'd been significantly further south?

[Paul Girouard]

IF I where to go on a ship like that I'd expect better damage control procedures. To take that many bodies to sea and have that poor a DC system / expectation , IMO , is fool hardy at the least ,and in ways criminal.

It , before this incident, was highly unlikely I ever would have paid to go on a cruise ship , knowing what the cruise ship "fleets" DC expectations / procedures really are I know I never will charter on a large vessel such as this one.

If they don't kill you with the food , they'll kill you with poor DC !

[Iceboy]

James Caird is right about the ice conditions down there. Those folks were really lucky in the weather they had. If it was typical Drake weather they would have been lucky to get out a mayday. Here is the "taxi" I was on in the area. http://www.palmerstation.com/hero/newship.html

[George Roberts]

Cruise ships in that area tend to rely on weather reports and to travel in loose packs. As long as the weather reports are accurate help is not very far away ...

6 hours in wet clothes in a small boat in the middle of nowhere is not a place I would want to be in.

[carioca1232001]

My two sisters and their respective families in Canada had been suggesting for some time now, that we all get together in Rio and then board a cruise ship headed for Antartica.

Both have been remarkably quiet over this accident and so has the press for that matter. :rolleyes:

[Marcio Moreira]

The Brazilian Navy Hidrogarfic Research Vessel "Ary Rongel" auxiliated on the rescue with his helicopter.

Some photos

https://www.mar.mil.br/menu_h/noticias/dhn/imagens/resgate_embarcacao1.jpg

http://www.alide.com.br/noticias/mb16/Explorer-naufragando.jpg
This is the brazilian ship:

http://www.naval.com.br/NGB/A/A107/A107-f03.jpg

[skuthorp]

G'day Marcio, What sort of co-operation is there with the countries in the area? SWMBO comes from the Falklands and we're always keeping an eye on events down that way.

[Tinman]

I realize this is an old thread, but I find this story both facinating and puzzling. I spent 10 years in the Canadian Navy as a marine engineer, and while not the saltiest mariner by any stretch, the question that popped to mind when I first heard this story was "No damage control plugs?" IF the hole was only the size of a fist or about 4 inches across, why did not the engineers stuff it with something? A coat, a hand full of rags, anything to slow the ingress of water to below the capacity of the pumps. It is entirely possible that the hole was in an area of the hull that was inaccessible, but it seems unlikely to me. any place you can't get too under normal conditions, is considered a void space and has a certain amount of water tight integrity built in. So I will be waiting for the inquiry results as eagerly as anyone else. Without being overly judgemental, from where I sit, there is no reason that ship should have been lost.

[Mad Scientist]

Tinman,

I always wonder about these 'minor damage' sinkings, too. My background is also Canadian Navy (21 1/2 yrs in Communications, and made it all the way to Master Seaman!), and I suspect that civilian sailors just don't train for this sort of accident.
Remember the Carnival ship that had a fire aft while leaving Miami several years ago? In that case, the Bridge didn't know that there was a problem until a nearby tugboat asked if they needed help fighting the fire! A few months later, a Carnival ship calling at Halifax sent some of the crew out to the DC School for a bit of practice.
Threr's a quote in a book written about the RCN in WWII to the effect that warships sent personnel aboard torpedoed (and still afloat) merchant ships to scuttle them, and noted that they could have been saved with little effort had their crews not been in such a hurry to abandon them.
Any idea when there will be an official report released?

Tom

[Tinman]

No I haven't heard anything about a final release date for the report, but I'll be watching for it. I made Leading Seaman btw. :o) I think in general shipping companies and cruise ship owners are a bit reluctant to send crewmen on d/c training. It's expensive, and the tendancy to "hope for the best" is prolific. The other thing that bothered me is that if my memory serves me correctly, she only had a 9 man crew. Now when you take out the Captian, cook and first mate, that only leaves 6 to stand watch. Even with a one man e/r crew standing 6 hour shifts, that only leaves three others to serve the passengers, and run the rest of the vessel. It strikes me as being a little thin in the manning pool. Maybe it wasn't the size of the hole that sunk her, but a lack of bodies to plug it.

[John E Hardiman]

No I haven't heard anything about a final release date for the report, but I'll be watching for it. I made Leading Seaman btw. :o) I think in general shipping companies and cruise ship owners are a bit reluctant to send crewmen on d/c training. It's expensive, and the tendancy to "hope for the best" is prolific. The other thing that bothered me is that if my memory serves me correctly, she only had a 9 man crew. Now when you take out the Captian, cook and first mate, that only leaves 6 to stand watch. Even with a one man e/r crew standing 6 hour shifts, that only leaves three others to serve the passengers, and run the rest of the vessel. It strikes me as being a little thin in the manning pool. Maybe it wasn't the size of the hole that sunk her, but a lack of bodies to plug it.

Lack of bodies is the answer, no big DC parties just waiting around for a hole to happen and nowadays an unmanned ER is fairly common. For merchant ships insurance covers the ship, so the big concern is to prevent casualties among the passangers. In a fire situation you would be lucky, as I said, to get two hose teams. For flooding, the rules are generally abandon and isolate if the pumps can't keep up. No use risking men for the ship, save them for the passangers.

[Tinman]

I have no doubt you are right, but it just goes against every nautical principle I know, to so easily sacrifice a ship. I like to at least think I would have made an effort of some kind to stop the leak and prevent the loss. After all, it is far easier to limp home on your own ship, than to abandon it and return on someone elses.