Cutting and curing wood for canoe build

[DiamondBullet]

Hello again, a new thread from me. I am fantasising about building a strip canoe from my own trees. They are TxT hybrid Poplars which have a base trunk diameter of between 10 to 12 inches and which are 40 to 50 feet high. Is this do-able? I can cut the trees and stack them but need to know how best to season them. Then the best time after this to process them into planks and strips. Also, how many trees do you reckon I would need, taking into consideration wastage (which I will use for firewood).

Any low-tech or time saving suggestions welcomed. In fact any suggestions welcomed. I'm not in any hurry but I need to cut these trees before the sap starts them into growth so they don't bleed to death and therefore will regrow from their bases. I use the coppiced wood for firewood. If I can't get it done by the middle of February then its next year's project!

I'm hoping it will be a super light craft using this wood. My main concern is that with a high water content the wood may split while seasoning and I need to avoid this at all costs.

Many thanks in advance.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Gan warily - I have a suspicion that "Poplar" is one of the trees that changes genus as it crosses the atlantic.

http://www.2020site.org/trees/poplar.html - describes the ones I know as Poplars in the UK
http://www.2020site.org/trees/images/poplar1.gif

This produces a very knotty timber
There is a more rounded form wher the branches are more horizontal and the canopy airier...

[DiamondBullet]

Hello again PI,

Hope you are well.

I am in the UK. I bought the hybrids from Edgar Watts. The variety is a Balsam Poplar Tacamahaca x Tricocarpa 32 (TxT 32) Balsam Spire. It is specifically for timber and biomass. Go to their site www.edgarwatts.com for details. The trunk is very straight. I also have some Lombardies but they actually grow much slower and look completely different. I am retaining them as they are a windbreak for the orchard. The TxT 32 I planted as a short-term windbreak to create a micro-climate until other trees became established, and now coppice them for firewood. They grow back very strongly from stools.

[Ron Carter]

The Forest Products Lab of the U.S. Foreat Service does not list either the hybred or its roots. I suspect you will need local information. Typical Aspen is rot prone unless the logs are milled or peeled immediately after felling. Kept dry it will last a long time. Might be ok for strip planking if very well encapsulated. Having my own woodlot and sawmill I understand the desire to be self sufficient. The cost of proper wood will be a small part of the equation in a strip built boat however. I'd stay with the cedar family for planking.

[DiamondBullet]

Looks like it could remain a fantasy! It wasn't so much the cost, just the feeling that I would like these trees I have admired for over fifteen years to become something else I would admire. I can't really explain this desire, it is just a gut feeling. They make wonderful firewood though, so looks like that will continue to be their primary role in life. I always choose the biggest log a year ahead and keep it as a Yule log to burn at Christmas to make up for cutting them. We're a bit pagan here!!

Would peeling the bark at felling mean the wood dried too quickly and split? I was sort of thinking of storing it with bark on and sealing the ends so it dried more slowly. I could cover it with a tarp while doing this. Do you have to work the wood 'green'?

[Dave Hadfield]

10 - 12 in are pretty small trees. My advice (worth what you're paying for it) is to let them grow, and buy cedar.

However, if you are in the situation of being required to thin the trees, that's different. In that case, why not.

I'd hire a band-saw mill to come in for the day and mill you the lumber, then store it properly stickered for a year under cover (in a barn, not under a tarp) and then use it. Seal the ends of the logs before ripping the boards.

Encapsulated in epoxy, it would do fine as a canoe hull.

[Canoez]

Without knowing more about the specific poplar you're talking about, if it has knots, they tend to check as the stock dries and I find that when stock is drying that it tends to warp and check more if it has lots of knots as the wood around the knots doesn't dry at the same rate as the rest of the board.

I'll add the following advice that I made to Chad on his 10' pack canoe. If you use the poplar (and it's anyting like we know here in the US), it will more than likely be heavier than the cedar. (His estimate was somewhere around 25 or 30% IIRC) Think about whether having a heavier boat will impact how often you take it out to enjoy using it. I've got several canoes at my disposal and find that the heavy ones tend to stay home...

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

The "poplar" we in the US use for cabinet grade lumber is not a polar at all. It is "liriodendrum tulipfora", known as tulip tree, yellow poplar, tulip poplar. It's a fast growing tree that achieves great size and can produce a lot of straight grained lumber. It's range is mostly in eastern North America.
Some true poplars are used for lumber but most of these grow in poor upland soils and don't get very big.

[Bob Smalser]

I am in the UK. I bought the hybrids from Edgar Watts. The variety is a Balsam Poplar Tacamahaca x Tricocarpa 32 (TxT 32) Balsam Spire. It is specifically for timber and biomass.

Reading about Mr Watt's offerings, your hybrid trees are Balsam Poplars totally unrelated to our Tulip Trees, which are called poplars but aren't.

Balsam Poplar is in genus Populus which provides wood of light weight (SG.35-.39), straight grain, uniform texture, easy to season but shrinks a lot, moderately soft (like in weight, about the same as cedar), moderately stiff, and low in its ability to resist shock. It also rots while you watch, which means it'll need full epoxy and glass to both control moisture ingress and improve its ability to absorb blows, and the resulting boat will have to be well cared for and stored under cover.

Also remember that knots ruin the structural continuity of strips, and most will require either a scarf or butt joint, and more difficulty fairing. For as little wood as you need, I'd probably saw the poplar into interior shelving and buy cedar strips instead.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Digging about I found that these are probably hybrids of Black Poplar P. Nigra - with the Balsam Poplar (as Bob S says).

Bob notes that the Balsam Poplar is "low in its ability to resist shock" - but strangely the P. Nigra - is noted for is shock resistance and was in days gone by, used for wagon bottom boards and stable dividers (the second link says strongm shock absorbent and lightweight) - goodness only knows what the resulting cross will do....

In summary - nobody seems sure that this is a useable timber for making a canoe - but you are still left with the "How do I fell and convert a boadleaf tree" question - I'd find a small local sawmill and ask one of the guys there - you may well find someone with an interest in the local oddballs.

http://www.rfs.org.uk/thirdlevel.asp?ThirdLevel=196&SecondLevel=35
http://www.greenbeltproject.org.uk/som_bp.html

[Bob Smalser]

While possible, I don't think these are knotty Lombardy or Black Poplars (P. nigra). Grower Watts advertises prime timber producers and identifies these as Populus tacamahaca crossed with P. tricocarpa Variety #32. A Tacamaca is a Balsam Poplar and P. tricocarpa is North American Black Cottonwood.

It gets confusing because Tacamaca is the section of poplars comprising all 8 species worldwide of Balsam Poplar and not a species name, but there's no doubt about the Black Cottonwood, a commercial timber tree here. I suspect the cottonwood was crossed with another commercial timber tree from the group, probably P. balsamifera, also from North America. Accordingly, this cross probably has a SG of .35 which is close to cedar's .32. This wood will make a lightweight canoe, and relatively clear stock may be available.

* Populus section Tacamahaca - balsam poplars. North America, Asia; cool temperate

o Populus angustifolia - Willow-leaved Poplar or Narrowleaf Cottonwood. Central North America.

o Populus balsamifera - Ontario Balsam Poplar. Northern North America.

o Populus laurifolia - Laurel-leaf Poplar. Central Asia.

o Populus maximowiczii - Maximowicz' Poplar. Northeast Asia.

o Populus simonii - Simon's Poplar. Northeast Asia.

o Populus szechuanica Northeast Asia. Placed here by nuclear DNA; cpDNA places in sect. Aegiros.

o Populus trichocarpa - Western Balsam Poplar or Black Cottonwood. Western North America.

o Populus tristis - Northeast Asia. Placed here by nuclear DNA; cpDNA places in sect. Aegiros.


http://www.edgarwatts.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poplar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balsam_poplar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populus_nigra

[DiamondBullet]

I have a specimen of Liriodendron Tulipifera which is still young, but that is such a beautiful tree that it will be cossetted to maturity.

I am alternatively downhearted, then upbeat (but still very thankful) about the responses. Bob's response is very interesting and makes me think, "what the hell I may as well have a go at it". Someone has to lead the vanguard. What a great gift for your children - to plant a grove of hybrid Populus when they are born. Then at age 15 to cut them down and make them a canoe. You'll still have the stooled trees and some excited children! Even if you don't want to make the canoe they are beautiful trees which rustle like the sea. Just don't plant them near property!!!

If something goes wrong, I could warn you off and they'll revert to their firewood option. I don't really have anything to lose. They would have been coppiced anyway.

The canoe would not be kept on the water but stored inside. It would have to be epoxied like other strip canoes.

I may investigate the options on another forum and get back to you all about the results. I have to thank you for the contributions – they blew me away.

[Canoez]

A question - probably best for Mr. Smalser.

With fast-growing woods such as Diamond is considering, I assume that the growth rings are very large - what impact are we looking at in terms of the strength of the wood?

[Bob Smalser]

"what the hell I may as well have a go at it".

What will it take to build your canoe? 35 board feet of stock? If I built one out of cottonwood, it'd be a small one for practice so I'd make fewer mistakes on the real one I made from 300 dollars worth of cedar.

Latewood with its denser cells in softwoods is generally strengthening...the more of it (ie the more growth rings).....the better, although this is often overrated by boatbuilders. The difference in strength is small, the advantage of high-ring-count softwood is a more even texture in working with tools.

Hardwoods don't have the same texture variances and latewood is neutral at best and weakening in ring-porous woods, where the earlywood is all pores and no wood. The USDA Wood Handbook has been updated over the years to reflect what's on the market and is quite accurate.

[DiamondBullet]

Bob, as I am a layman, are you saying that fifteen years of growth will only affect the aesthetics and workability and not the strength of the wood?

I'm looking at a two-man Peterborough type canoe which in the canoecraft book is around 16 feet length.

I'm most concerned about when to cut the planks. Do I cut green and stack with air gaps or leave the logs to cure for a while first to stop warping and distortion through drying? I have a large belt driven circular bench saw which we drive from a tractor belt. I'm thinking of experimenting to see if we can get regular planks from this. I've never cut green wood on it and never along the grain. Would this work? I'll try to hunt some pictures of the trees. Having two threads going is keeping me busy!!

[ssor]

Diamond, Tulip poplar is native to my area and while it does grow tall and straight and is self pruning it is not very strong. A little better than soft pine and not quite as strong as soft maple. As fire wood it has a high ash content. There are probably better choices for building a canoe but some very nice furniture is made from poplar and painted.

[Bob Smalser]

1) Bob, as I am a layman, are you saying that fifteen years of growth will only affect the aesthetics and workability and not the strength of the wood?

2) I'm most concerned about when to cut the planks. Do I cut green and stack with air gaps or leave the logs to cure for a while first to stop warping and distortion through drying?

3) I have a large belt driven circular bench saw which we drive from a tractor belt. I'm thinking of experimenting to see if we can get regular planks from this. I've never cut green wood on it and never along the grain. Would this work? I'll try to hunt some pictures of the trees. Having two threads going is keeping me busy!!

1) Yes. The wood strength figures in the USDA Wood Handbook apply equally to both 15-year-old trees and 50-year-old trees.

2) Here's how to stack and sticker hardwood lumber. Paint the ends of the logs immediately after felling and bucking with a water-soluble tar emulsion available at roofing suppliers before milling. Mill the logs immediately....they won't season at all in log form. Stacking and Air Drying Lumber (http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=499)

3) Milling round logs on a circular bench saw is dangerous. To mill straight-grained boards, you need to rip the log in half through the pith first, then rip the boards from each log half in sequence from pith to bark. Logs are tapered, making the saw's fence unusable for the opening cut, so you'll be sawing freehand to a chalk line with the log temporarily screwed to a wedge that allows it to ride flat and secure on the table. That's best done on a large bandsaw.

If you don't know anyone with a bandsaw, you can split the logs using wedges and plane the split surfaces flat using a jointer (by power or hand) to achieve a safe indexing surface for that first cut on your circular saw.

Ripping to a chalk line without the fence requires two people on a circular saw, one on each end or the workpiece. Use a freshly-sharpened blade (the more teeth, the better), don't raise the saw blade any higher than necessary to make the cut, and cut slowly. The dynamics of freehand cutting are that if you (or a jig that wobbles or slips) rotate or skew the workpiece against the sawblade faster than the teeth can cut wood, the workpiece will be thrown backwards with great force the instant the wood touches the saw's plate instead of the teeth. The results can be fatal.

[DiamondBullet]

In answer to ssor first. I'm not using Liriodendron but Populus. Latin names may be cumbersome but they negate confusion!! As mentioned above in other correspondence Tulip Poplar is actually Liriodendron. But thank you for putting up a post. Every one is welcome to contribute.

Bob, great information and I realised I bunged this thread in the wrong section (this is my favourite section). I'm glad I put up the question on here now. I'm certainly learning and that's what I enjoy. You certainly get to grips with some substantial timber!

Looks like I may to be looking on Ebay for a bandsaw (a secret longing anyway and a good excuse to get one). I've split this wood using wedges before and it was quite satisfying, but maybe a bit wasteful.

[StevenBauer]

Are there sawyers near you with small trailer mounted bandsaw mills that can come to your site and mill the wood for you? That might yield better lumber for less money.

Steven

[DiamondBullet]

That sounds like a good idea! I'll investigate it. Saves me trying to shift 30ft logs on my pick up. I must admit I haven't heard of one round here but that doesn't mean there isn't one. Many thanks.

[Eric D]

not much to add, Bob has hit it all, I just want to highlight the fact that you should definitely mill it GREEN as soon as you can after felling the tree. Then sticker/stack them and wait.

I would try it, what the heck. You own the wood, something off the land and quite frankly by the time you are epoxing the whole craft it should have better rot resistence. As you mention, it will not live by the lake so...

Of course, take pics and share them, that is the price for advice!!

[DiamondBullet]

Well I've made a decision. I'm going to let the trees grow on another year while I get the cutting and stacking situation sorted. Bob's advice has made me see that being rash could not only waste a lot of wood but could also be dangerous. I have a lot of willow to cut anyway this year for firewood, so I was going to be up against it cutting a load of poplar. Having to process it green as well without having anything organised will be too complex at the moment. I think better to get the infrastructure sorted ahead. Also I've left it a bit late and next winter I can allow myself more time to dedicate to this. But keep the contributions going as it WILL be a goer. I will find a piccie of the trees to put up.

I get some more thinking time this way and benefit from their beauty for another season.

This thread may go down if dormant, but I will resurrect it when I go live again.

[neilm]

Drying wood is not easy. It tends to warp, twist, cup etc. Reaction wood is common. Now I quartersaw what I can and use the rest for firewood. Like others said mill it green. I recommend air drying outside under open sided shelter with stickers for one year then bring it inside for a month before using it. Keep it weighted down. Balsam Poplar and Cottonwood are not rated very well for woodworking but they may serve your purpose. They fuzz up easily. They do glue well however. They are rot prone and might even rot while you are drying them.

Neil

[StevenBauer]

Hey DB, have you seen this website?

http://www.fbti.co.uk/essential1.htm

These are the guys who might be able to steer some help your way.


Steven

[DiamondBullet]

Dear Neil and Steven,

Yes, our damp climate could be a problem for storage without rot, but our weather a couple of years ago was so dry it would have been OK. Last summer would have been a disaster, but hopefully we will have a proper summer back this and next year!

I've bookmarked that website so I can have a better look at it when I have time. It looks really interesting. Many thanks both.

[Spokaloo]

Diamond, one place you might contact is Boise Cascade, a lumber company in the western US. In order to reduce the pressure on our primary forests, they have started MAJOR plantations of hybrid poplars in pseudo-desert regions (arid land) with irrigation. This plantation is primarily for pulp, used in the paper industries, reducing the number of doug firs/cedars/pines, and other high value trees felled for pulp. These trees are fully mature in relatively short time (7-15 yrs) and have tremendous length for their diameter at the trunk. They may be a good source of information on the hybrid strains, and might even have some milling info for you.

[djswan]

10 to 12 inch poplar trees 40ft. You want a strip canoe. No need for a mill, start stripping.

How does poplar rive? You have nothing but time to do it. Do it while green.

[boatbear]

DB, the Peterborough is a great choice. It seems to be just the right compromise for stability, load carrying, tracking vs. manoeuvrability and is sooo beautiful.
I've used cottonwood for a set of internal windows in my kitchen. I found it easy to work with routers etc, a joy to hand plane, and the figure including birdseye that appeared when I varnished quite lovely. A friend milled it using a chainsaw mill and it was stickered in a shed for a couple of years, then thicknessed. I wish I had enough now to make a Peterborough. I guess you'd need to mill at about 25mm thick, season and then thickness to 18 or 19mm. Strips would be 6 or 7mm thick (I guess).
Charlie

[DiamondBullet]

That's a great encouragement BB. I took some pictures of the trees yesterday while cutting some coppice. I want to take a picture of the logs and grain which I will post. I think we will have an early spring this year. The snowdrops are out already! This means I have less time to get the trees cut, so I think leaving it this year is most practical. Doesn't stop me planning ahead though.