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Chip-skiff
01-08-2008, 10:36 PM
As our water levels recede, I'm ramping up to build a wee skiff or faering this spring. Having sailed wheel and tiller boats, I'm curious about the relative merits of a tiller, the push-pull setup, and rope steering (e.g. the Herreshoff Coquina).

At 194 cm (6' 4") I've found myself in some odd positions in small tiller-steered boats, especially singlehanding with a jib to trim. Rope steering seems like the ergonomic choice, but I've never actually seen (let alone sailed) a boat with that system.

Is there someone who's sailed all three types, who can offer a point-by-point comparison? And, naturally, a preference.

yrs, Chip

Thorne
01-08-2008, 11:30 PM
Some depends on who will be steering the boat, and how hard you'll be sailing her.

I have had a number of tiller-steered boats, and like most dinghy sailors have gotten the system/feel 'in the blood'.

When I restored my Chamberlain dory skiff, I wanted to steer without having the tiller sweep the woife (or other guests) off the sternsheets -- so that meant either the push-pull or yoke tiller. I tried both.

I find them equally hard to get used to, as do my guest helmsmen. Anyone taking my boat out for the first time leave a very wavey wake!

;0 )


The push-pull design means that on one tack you are pushing, the other pulling -- which I find hard to remember, and sometimes hard on the fingers/wrists/elbow/arm.

The yoke tiller with steering lines has several advantages over the push-pull in my opinion.

First, the lines always work the same way on any tack -- you pull the rope on the side you wish to steer towards -- much like steering with a wheel, but the opposite of a standard tiller.

Second, you can lengthen the steering lines and drive the boat from nearly anywhere they can reach. Chapelle remarks on this, and claims it is why they were often used in some small fishing boats. This also allows you to put your weight where it will do the most good, an important factor in tender pulling boats rigged for sail.

Here's two shots of my yoke and steering line rig -
http://www.luckhardt.com/newyoke2.jpg
http://www.luckhardt.com/newyoke3.jpg

And here's a shot I took sailing the boat on Big Lagoon in light winds while sitting on the forward thwart leaning against the mast -- just try that with a push-pull or standard tiller.
http://www.luckhardt.com/biglagoon9-06/biglagoon9-06-Images/20.jpg

If you do build the push-pull tiller, you will want to make the tiller head (the lever arm) at least half the width of the beam of the boat. These are also more traditional on faerings, or at least more common on the one's I've seen in person or photos.

Also be sure to have a loose fit on the join between lever arm and the push-pull tiller stick - some folks use line, others loosely-fitted bolts. Either way, the joint has to handle the various angles created when you move around the boat, and when the rudder head tilts during hard turns.

Here's a photo of what can happen if you don't -- I was using my first attempt at a white oak yoke as the lever arm and a boathook as the push-pull stick. The oak cracked, even though the boat hook allowed quite a bit of angle. So to get back to the dock I had to swap sides and jury-rig it with marline, which worked much better by the way.

http://www.luckhardt.com/inverness5.jpg

mike hanyi
01-09-2008, 05:01 AM
Well I have tried them all.
we all have used tiller, the push-pull I have tried once and cant give any opinion with such short experience, and then the coquina setup which I enjoyed for 5 years.

it all depends on the boat and the rig, rope steering was great in Coquina as in center it has enough friction to be set, and you can balance the boat then, going downwind wing on wing was like having a wheel, as you stayed in the center and did not have the tiller in the way, same goes with tacking but there is slop in the rope off center, and it just takes getting used to.
again it depends on the boat-

what did you have in mind?

lagspiller
01-09-2008, 06:23 AM
If you do build the push-pull tiller, you will want to make the tiller head (the lever arm) at least half the width of the beam of the boat.

mmmmm.... that sounds a bit extreme. The traditional færings and seksarings (3 oar pairs) I have been in have an arm of about 14 inches. That for boats between 18 and 23-24 ft. They all use push-pull, not rope. Must be a reason for that. Fishermen were generally only interested in what worked best. But they also had nets and 'loose' fishing lines in their boats, so they probably had more to take into account than you will. I can just imagine rope steering tangled in fishinglines with lots of hooks in a blow...

Ian McColgin
01-09-2008, 06:56 AM
For a narrow stern and flexability of where you sit, steering ropes or a push/pull are best. For a rig that lets you lock it down to trim the sails with both hands, it's steering ropes but not from a yoke. As you can see from Thorne's excellent pix, if it's on a yoke you can't make the steering lines really tight and thus don't get the positive ability to steer in both directions from either side of the boat. Thorne's pix also show what's often left out and is really needed: a 2:1 step in the lines.

Fix a suitable sized pully wheel to the top of the rudder post. A couple of cheek blocks will lead the steering rope such that it lands in plane with the wheel and can tightly embrace the wheel. Even so, you may need to sieze the rope to the rudder post wheel.

Now, basic layout: The rope a round the rudder post wheel ends spliced to a small pulley at least far enough from the wheel that the pulleys remain free of the wheel when the rudder's hard over. The steering rope you'll actually pull on starts on the gunnel, runs back through one pully, then foreward around the boat guided by pulleys at suitable intervals, and back to the other pulley on the rope from the rudder post wheel, and thence foreward to be fixed on the gunnel.

Set it up reasonably tight.

This gives you a line that you can steer from either side by either a push or a pull. You can determine for yourself what feels more logical, but for myself it was intuitivly obvious to set it up such that pushing forward on the starboard side or pulling back on the port side turned the boat to port, and visa versa.

I put a cam cleat about amidships on each side just under the natural run of the steering rope. The stretch of the line let me pop the line in either or both cleats yet when it was not in, it would not accidentally catch. Each cam cleat was set to prevent the steering rope from slipping aft on its side. That way it could always be locked down on the weather side to resist weather helm and steer the boat for short moments while trimming or grabbing a sandwich. I'd lock on both sides if rowing down or across a hard wind or for towing the boat.

G'luck

Craic
01-09-2008, 07:39 AM
There is a big difference with regards to the forces. In rope and push-pull solutions all rudder forces are to be absorbed by the rudder hanging pins. Also, the forces on the necessary rudderhead crossbar end are magnified (doubled), because there is just a push or pull component, not push and pull torque as in a tiller arrangement.
I have seen several broken wire controlled rudderheads because the forces were underrated, also in one of the above photos such a result can be seen.

I myself have a rudder wire yoke in one dinghy. First, there was a 5mm stainless steel wire which looked more than adequate. However, that broke after just one year from internal chafing (no damage was visible from outside until it went BANG!).
Since then we are using textile Dyneema, and that works fine, no more chafing. Play-free also after the knots have set.

RT MAN
01-09-2008, 09:06 AM
For a narrow stern and flexability of where you sit, steering ropes or a push/pull are best. For a rig that lets you lock it down to trim the sails with both hands, it's steering ropes but not from a yoke. As you can see from Thorne's excellent pix, if it's on a yoke you can't make the steering lines really tight and thus don't get the positive ability to steer in both directions from either side of the boat. Thorne's pix also show what's often left out and is really needed: a 2:1 step in the lines.

Fix a suitable sized pully wheel to the top of the rudder post. A couple of cheek blocks will lead the steering rope such that it lands in plane with the wheel and can tightly embrace the wheel. Even so, you may need to sieze the rope to the rudder post wheel.

Now, basic layout: The rope a round the rudder post wheel ends spliced to a small pulley at least far enough from the wheel that the pulleys remain free of the wheel when the rudder's hard over. The steering rope you'll actually pull on starts on the gunnel, runs back through one pully, then foreward around the boat guided by pulleys at suitable intervals, and back to the other pulley on the rope from the rudder post wheel, and thence foreward to be fixed on the gunnel.

Set it up reasonably tight.

This gives you a line that you can steer from either side by either a push or a pull. You can determine for yourself what feels more logical, but for myself it was intuitivly obvious to set it up such that pushing forward on the starboard side or pulling back on the port side turned the boat to port, and visa versa.

I put a cam cleat about amidships on each side just under the natural run of the steering rope. The stretch of the line let me pop the line in either or both cleats yet when it was not in, it would not accidentally catch. Each cam cleat was set to prevent the steering rope from slipping aft on its side. That way it could always be locked down on the weather side to resist weather helm and steer the boat for short moments while trimming or grabbing a sandwich. I'd lock on both sides if rowing down or across a hard wind or for towing the boat.

G'luck
Some pictures of this set would be very nice!

Ian McColgin
01-09-2008, 10:19 AM
Sadly, Leeward has been retired to being a beach ornament and the pix I had tht showed it went down with Granuaile. I could draw it. Perhaps someone who knows how to put a drawing onto this forum could PM me with an address and/or fax number.

Thorne
01-09-2008, 10:58 AM
Ian's system sounds very interesting!

As for the length of the tiller arm for the push-pull system, that was something I read on this forum. I'm sure it can be shorter, but if there is any sort of balance issue with the sailing rig (lee helm or weather helm) the longer tiller arm gives you a significant mechanical advantage -- much like the 2:1 advantage that blocks give on the rope tiller setup. Remember that unlike a standard tiller where you can use your body to brace it, the push-pull requires tension forward or aft -- which can be hard on your hand and arm if the boat's steering is unbalanced.

I neglected to describe another method of setting up a yoke tiller -- the continuous line. I've seen several variations, most running the line under the gunwales forward to the center or forward thwart, where the lines go through blocks and cross the boat, then go back along the other side.

The guys that used this system swear by it, saying that you just reach up and grab the line from anywhere you happen to be steering from. Big advantage is no loose steering lines to be dropped or tangled.

Tom Robb
01-09-2008, 12:55 PM
Short tillers and rudder head arms set you up for twitchy, too quick steering and longer ones steer more smoothly, don't they?

Ian McColgin
01-09-2008, 12:59 PM
Thorne has more clearly described elements of what I have done.

The continuous line does not work well on a yoke because if the line's taught when the rudder is amidships - yoke athwartships - it goes slack and slacker as you turn. Hence the disc or pulley wheel atop the rudder post. My first one was a discarded belt pully from an old appliance.

Leeward was the Chamberlain gunning dory, pointed stern and rudder off-set by the stem to port, so there was not space to put a large wheel on - only about 8" diameter. Even with the tiney rudder, this made for too much work and too jerky a motion to steer with it run direct. That's why I stepped it to 2:1. You'll have no trouble with line strength as anything of any material fat enough to be comfortable pulling on will be more than up to these low loads.

G'luck

RT MAN
01-09-2008, 07:29 PM
Thorne has more clearly described elements of what I have done.

The continuous line does not work well on a yoke because if the line's taught when the rudder is amidships - yoke athwartships - it goes slack and slacker as you turn. Hence the disc or pulley wheel atop the rudder post. My first one was a discarded belt pully from an old appliance.

Leeward was the Chamberlain gunning dory, pointed stern and rudder off-set by the stem to port, so there was not space to put a large wheel on - only about 8" diameter. Even with the tiney rudder, this made for too much work and too jerky a motion to steer with it run direct. That's why I stepped it to 2:1. You'll have no trouble with line strength as anything of any material fat enough to be comfortable pulling on will be more than up to these low loads.

G'luck

Ian can you post some picture or a drawing I have a Sam Rabyl (Titmouse) that is cramped by the tiller and I would like to try would you are talking about.

thanks

Rufus.

Chip-skiff
01-09-2008, 07:56 PM
The wisdom that comes from actually having done a thing is precious: many thanks. This is mostly about the rope steering.

Looking at Thorne's photos of his Chamberlain Dory-Skiff, makes me think I'd worry about a passenger leaning back and shifting the helm or fouling the rudder line, as the rope is fat and hairy (historically accurate) and stands out from the curve of the hull. The problem with forces across the grain of the yoke (and perhaps the screws driven though it) is the sort of thing that seems obvious in retrospect. I've had similar bugger-ups. The improvised solution (boothook + lashing) is elegant.

I'll have to read Ian's post over and try to sketch what he describes.

The applied physics issues seem to be: a) attaching the lines to the rudder in an efficient way; b) routing the line through the boat in a manner that avoids interference or binding; c) using a line that neither stretches nor swells with wetness, and runs through grommets, fairleads, etc. without excess friction.

In the WOODEN BOAT piece on Coquina (December 2005, #187, pp. 76-83) are photos that show the Herreshoff rope steering rig. I'd scan the pics and post them, but that might infringe the copyright- does anyone know whether WOODEN BOAT allows this?) In any event, the ends are knotted in two screw-mounted dees at the outer edges of the transom, and lead to matched blocks (presumably corrosion resistant) mounted outboard on the upper edge of the rudder itself: no cheeks, staff, yoke, nor any other vertical member reaching above the transom.

From which they run to two matching holes (grommeted) in the transom about 6 cm above the dees. It's harder to tell what's going on inside the hull, but it looks like a series of fairleads mounted on frames, with the line crossing aft of the center thwart. Whether there are cleats or similar, I can't tell.

Seems like there should be enough friction in the system to keep the rudder from overcorrecting or flailing, but not so much that it might bind. Having done some alpine and ice climbing, I'd guess the rope steering rig is pretty vulnerable to freeze-ups (if you've ever tried to jumar up a soaked, rime-covered rope, you know what I mean). So I can see why Norsk fishermen might not be too keen on it, for general use. Weather is the crux, as they say.

Anyhow, I'm grateful for your considerable experience & effort. Further insights welcome.

yrs, Chip

Ian McColgin
01-09-2008, 08:08 PM
Yeah - I don't know how to transfer a drawing to this forum but if someone who can wants to give me a fax number, I'll get it right off tomorrow.

Ron Carter
01-09-2008, 08:11 PM
Nine foot push pull stick on a 14' sharpie allows me to sit anywhere from the transom to the mast and either side of the dagger board. Can pick up a mooring without leaving the helm. While not immediately intuitive the steering motion becomes second nature in a very short time. It takes little motion to get a course correction so a light touch is called for. Much like the yoke on a light aircraft compared to the steering wheel on a passenger car. Wouldn't go back to a tiller on this boat.

Ben Fuller
01-09-2008, 09:37 PM
On my Dias designed Harrier, we set up originally for push pull, but we had a nice big square hole in the rudder top so for an experiment we did a push pull only turned it into an L tiller. The rudder head and the square hole has to be stout and closely fitted as it supports the weight of the tiller. You then do a tiller extension like dinghy sailors are accustomed to. It works, giving you the offset of a pushpull with the sensitivity of a tiller. Downside: fabrication is finicky; the rudder head may be an inch and a half or more due to the need for the kick up. The tiller / joint arm which is in my case a half lap with a bolt also needs to be precise and robust. Limit on one tack.... which is less of a limit than one might suppose as if you are that far over you are stalled doing something wrong. Need to pay attention and not put weight on tiller as robustness is not infinite. Upside: the sensitivity in tiller feel is much greater than in the push pull in my faering. The tiller extension gives me more ablity to hike than the push pull although the push pull is not bad. Push pull folds away neatly..

I have done string systems as well and find that I give up some steering sensitivity.

Ian McColgin
01-10-2008, 09:24 AM
Chip and Rufus have sent me fax numbers so I hope today to get this out and one of them can post it. It's simpler than my clutzy description.

Benson Gray
01-10-2008, 09:50 AM
Sailing canoes most frequently use steering lines although tillers, paddles, and push-pull sticks are also common as shown at http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=1372 in the attached images. I haven't seen or sailed a canoe with a wheel yet. My experience is that the lines offer more flexability to move around while the tiller or stick offers a better feel as others have mentioned previously.

Benson

Ian McColgin
01-10-2008, 10:12 AM
When I get the pic drawn, you'll see the wheel is just the rudder post pulley. The purpose is to end the slack that happens with steering ropes on a yoke.

Chip-skiff
01-10-2008, 02:29 PM
Ian kindly sent me his sketch, but my fax machine mucked it up. So I redrew it, with a few question marks for bits I couldn't make out.

Here 'tis (I hope). He can fill in the details, perhaps.


286

Ian McColgin
01-10-2008, 02:55 PM
That's nicely improved. Yes, the disc or pully sits atop the rudder post, taking the place of a rudder yoke or tiller. I was inspired by the LFH rudder connection for the Marco Polo.

I'd not drawn the rudder as if it was visible, which on a doublender it's of course not, but this drawing is clearer. You can envision how if you push the starboard rope ahead, that will pull back (clockwise) on the rudder post pulley, thus positioning the rudder for a port turn.

On the boat drawn, the small rudder post pulley is back on an aft deck out of the way. If you have a transom mounted rudder, you might make a bit over a quadrent sticking back from the rudder post for less intrusion into the cockpit. The steering lines will need to cross befor passing astern around the quadrent. Normal steering does not require so much angle so allowing about 40 degrees each way is more than enough.

Key to comfort in the hands and bringing mechanical advantage back despite the rather small lever arm of the rudder post pulley is splicing the rudderpost pulley line to a becket on a block at each end. You can about see that the actual this is what you grab steering line starts a bit forward of the moving block, drops back and through and then forward and around the boat to the other side. You want to locate those connections half way of the travel it takes to get from lock to lock.

Obviously these rigs can be made to steer in either direction. I chose that pushing the starboard side forward or pulling the port side back causes a port turn because looking down it feels like a big steering wheel, clockwise starboard and anticlockwise port.

G'luck

Chip-skiff
01-10-2008, 03:51 PM
Ian's setup looks very well-thought-out. The force is exerted not only on the rudder foil, through the angular pull on the blocks, but frictionally on the pulley, which spreads it out. Tension on one side causes the line to bite on the pulley, helping overcome the inertia (until the forces equalise).

An abrupt force applied to the rudder foil might cause the line to slip on the pulley, thus minimising damage (while throwing the adjustment out of whack). Any experience with that?

What materials were used, particularly for the pulley and the line that connects the moving blocks?

Seems like, on a boat with an upright transom, two holes might be drilled near the rim of the pulley, opposite, to allow Thorne's boathook tactic in the event of a line failure.

Thanks for the barrage of ideas—

Chip

Ian McColgin
01-10-2008, 05:13 PM
I've had it held in place by friction and by siezing. Not much difference. Stresses are low and banging something really won't cause damage or failure.

If the rudder post is raked, plan B with a more than quadrent astern is best.

I used dacron three strand for easy splicing, thicker on the line that runs around the boat for easy handling. The stresses are quite low and really nothing will fail.

Play and have fun.

G'luck

Steve Lansdowne
01-10-2008, 10:37 PM
On a steeply angled transom, figuring out how to attach a push-pull tiller to the side arm that attaches to the rudder can be difficult, as the angle between the two increases as the rudder goes further and further to one side.

Ian McColgin
01-11-2008, 02:45 AM
Just set up the rudder post pulley or bit-more-than-quadrant normal to the rudder post and give the line a fair lead in.

Thorne
01-11-2008, 10:19 AM
What Steve says about raked transoms (and faering sternposts) is important. For both the tiller arm on a push-pull or the yoke head, you not only get an increased angle, but the end of the arm or yoke comes inboard quite a bit on hard turns.

So the limiting length of the arm or yoke can be the back of the person in the sternsheets (or other rigging/lines in the boat), rather than the perfect length for best steering.

Lazy Jack
01-14-2008, 02:29 PM
Here is my solution for the double ended gunning dory. It works well, allows passengers to sit in the sternsheets without obstructing the tiller, and allows me to steer from the center of the dory.http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r256/LazyJack/IMG_0831-1.jpg?t=1200339530

Lazy Jack
01-14-2008, 02:32 PM
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r256/LazyJack/IMG_0831-1.jpg?t=1200339530
The line has on it two blocks mounted on bronze snap hooks. The yoke is placed over the rudder head and the blocks are clipped onto a couple eyestraps screwed to the inside edge of the gunwhale. On the end of the tiller (a shovel handle actually) is fitted a pintle which drops into a gudgeon on the after edge of a thwart. A small eyebolt which lives on the steering line between the two blocks passes up through a slot in the shovel handle tiller and a threaded knob draws the eye into the slot as you crank it down clamping the line to the under side of the tiller. This makes an easily adjustable system where you can loosen the knob and slide the tiller handle to a convenient locaton on the steering loop for hiking out etc.

Set-up after stepping the rudder is: unwind the steering line with the two blocks and screw eye dangleing from it from the yoke, drop the yoke on the rudder head, grab the two pullies and snap them into the eye straps on either side of the boat, drop the pintle on the back of the tiller into the gudgeon in the back of the seat, pick up the screw eye dangling somewhere on the line as it crosses athwartships, stick it up through the slot in the tiller, center the rudder, center the tiller and crank the black knob down. If you're hiking out and want the tiller in easy reach, loosen the black knob, slide the tiller toward you on the steering loop and crank it back down tight. Takes far longer to say than do!

Texasgaloot
01-14-2008, 04:07 PM
Have you noticed that the manner of steering of the St. Lawrence guideboats has gone away (rudderless)? The obvious response would be because it didn't work, but in fact I can remember my brother and I sailing our Blue Jay around with the rudder shipped, relying only on sail trim and ballast placement (our rear ends.)

Ben Fuller
01-14-2008, 09:31 PM
I sail my good little skiff pretty much all the time with body weight. It becomes difficult when the sea gets lumpy. In a chop sometimes the sculling oar is used to kick things around.

Boat needs to be shaped right, have some directional stability for this to work. In the GLS the sweet spot is sitting on your heels just ahead of the rowing thwart. Let the boat heel and lean forward you go up, hike and shift weight back, you go down. Down wind you need to move aft a little and heel the boat to windward.

Chip-skiff
01-15-2008, 12:12 AM
Hmm. LazyJack's setup is a tiller-controlled rope rig: in effect, a whipstaff in the horizontal plane. Being a dull sort, I'd not have thought that up in several million years.

In a small boat, the advantages of the conventional tiller are: a) simple to build, b) straightforward to use, and c) sensitive to conditions and small adjustments. Gripping a tiller, one can feel how the water's acting on it.

Disadvantages: a) takes up a lot of cockpit space, b) restricts the movement and potential seating positions of the person at the helm, and c) needs auxiliary fittings to be set (i.e. left untended).

The push-pull setup is more space-efficient while being equally sensitive. It allows a greater range of seating positions but still needs a constant hand on the helm or some sort of shock-cord hobble.

A rope rig (even with low-stretch line) wouldn't have the sweet, accustomed feel of a tiller. But it would be very space-efficient, easy (using clam cleats, etc.) to set, and also allow steering by crew seated forward (allowing the helm to have a nice piss over the side without trying to steer with a foot or leave one's trousers unbuttoned at a windshift).

Being by nature a tinker, I'll likely try all three approaches. With a report (subjective, opinionated) at season's end.

Thanks and good weather–
Chip

skuthorp
01-15-2008, 12:24 AM
On my mack I use a yolk and a steering line that runs via two pulleys right around the cockpit under the side deck. I have a tensioning spring but hardly use it, an unnecessary complication, it's one of my faults. I paddle sprint canoe with a lever set-up to steer, and the mack came with drawings for pedals that I built and discarded after the first use.

Bob Triggs
01-15-2008, 01:50 AM
Thorne, it looks like you have two small wood cleats fixed to the bottom of the yolk, at each side of the rudder head, and there looks like a cross or through pin that runs through those cleats and through the head of the rudder. Is this corect? Or is this a bolt? From the top photo views it is hard to see how you fix the yolk to the rudderhead. Is the yolk easily readily removed?

Thorne
01-15-2008, 09:30 AM
Out in these here parts, rudders, oxen and shirts have yokes; but eggs have yolks -- not that this makes any difference.

'0 )

I sorta made up with the method for attaching the yoke to the rudder head, not sure what the optimal method would be.

The head of the rudder is notched and angled to take the yoke at the correct angle. The yoke has two small cleats screwed and epoxied to it underneath. I then drilled through the cleat, rudder head, and opposing cleat with a long drillbit.

I took brass rod and bent one end to make removable pins. They *can* be removed but not easily, so I leave the yoke on the rudder nearly all the time. Only thing I'd do differently is to put some brass wear plates on the ends of the yoke arms, so the varnish wouldn't wear when transporting the rudder in the back of my truck.

http://www.luckhardt.com/final-transom.jpg
http://www.luckhardt.com/kickup-full1.jpg
http://www.luckhardt.com/rudderheaddetail.jpg

dirtsailor
01-15-2008, 10:22 AM
Thorne,

Does the weight of the rudder blade keep it in the down position while sailing? Or do you have another method for keeping the blade of the rudder down?

Thorne
01-15-2008, 10:42 AM
Dirt old bean -

The rudder blade has a big chunk o' plate lead to keep it down, but when sailing fast it tends to move aft/up a bit.
http://www.luckhardt.com/finishedblade1.jpg

The only method I use is called "thinking happy thoughts" or "positive thinking" -- which isn't really very effective when used by a Capricorn farm-boy from Missouri.

In other words the rudder shifts back under speed, but I regard this as a feature not a bug --- as the boat needs more CLR aft anyway, and the rudder and CB as designed should both be canted back, not hanging straight down as I built them.

If keeping the rudder down was important, I'd use the bungee system as described in multiple posts on this forum, as I really like being able to sail up on the beach (or hidden sandbars) without having to scramble madly around the boat releasing lines on the rudder, centerboard, etc. Bob Smalser has some great posts on the subject.

I also don't recommend using oak cheeks on the rudder blade -- Gardner calls for bronze or marine brass plates, but I was too cheap to spend the $$$. I haven't had any cracks in the white oak yet, but it really isn't a design to copy, as the wood could easily crack if the rudder got much sideways force.

http://www.luckhardt.com/rudderplan1sm.jpg

skuthorp
01-15-2008, 08:23 PM
"Out in these here parts, rudders, oxen and shirts have yokes; but eggs have yolk"
Yeah, but mine's bright yellow so.........

dirtsailor
01-15-2008, 11:17 PM
Dirt old bean -

The rudder blade has a big chunk o' plate lead to keep it down, but when sailing fast it tends to move aft/up a bit.
http://www.luckhardt.com/finishedblade1.jpg



Thanks Thorne, The photos before didn't show the business end of the the blade. I assumed there must be something down there. Just wanted to make sure.

RT MAN
01-16-2008, 07:36 AM
Here is another design I drew with two linkage off the rudder to a pivoting equalizer bar with the steering rope surrounding the cockpit. Ths will allow right hand steering with equalizer if your sitting port side as well as rope steering from anywhere in the boat.

Ian McColgin
01-16-2008, 09:05 AM
Unless you put an equalizer bar up front, such that the steering ropes on each side make the sides of a paralellagram, the steering rope will go slack as you turn the rudder. You will lose all dynamic feel. It was to solve this that I hit on the disc or pulley or at least something a bit more than a quadrent (150 degrees of arc will allow upt to 30 degrees rudder, surely enough) atop the rudderpost.

Steering ropes to a yoke take two hands unless your boat has excess weatherhelm.

Pernicious Atavist
01-21-2008, 09:53 PM
I've used a push/pull on my canoe for years. It has a cord to keep it close to hand if dropped, I can hike out either side, and best part--I can stand and steer. To keep the rudder in place when it's hands-off the tiller, I reckon one could arrange for a line from the rudder head that passes through some sort of adjustable device to restrain it a bit, and back to the rudder head, a 'tiller tamer' or some such thing?