NBot to be missed square riggers

[Old Sailor]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22648903/

Old Sailor

[ahp]

Old Sailor, do you remember what happened to the Preussen? I recall that she was knocked over and foundered in a sudden squall, in mid Atlantic, in the 1950's with a crew of cadets. Almost all of the ship's company were lost. Not a good role model.

[Geoffrey Harris]

The Preussen was lost I think sometime in the teens. At any rate not very long after it was built. A steamer tried to cut across her bow in the English Channel, holing her badly. They put her ashore to avoid sinking and the breakers (waves, not shipbreakers) got her. The whole story is in The Windjammers, in the Time Life Seafarers book series.

[ahp]

That is what I get for depending on memory. However, one of those "P" ships, originally a nitrate carrier, was converted to a training ship and took a fatal knockdown, about 1950.

[Clyderigged]

The Royal Clipper based on the Preussen. What's next? The Royal Clipper is a sea going hotel/restaurant/spa. She is not a hard driven Windjammer earning her keep rounding Cape Horn. The Royal Clipper earns her keep not by hauling nitrates, but by taking dinner reservations. Her crew serve Caesar salads instead of wire. The modern gear and designs in her rig, reflects compromises for passenger comfort in that instead of supporting acres of canvas it now is something for the dinner patron to look at while awaiting a table. To quote Alex Hurst "If it is desired to preserve an historic building - perhaps a famous old restaurant - there would be an outcry if it were converted to look like a square-rigger, if that were possible".
There I feel better - now about this whole "tallship" lingo.... don't get me started.

The 4 masted Barque Pamir, Foundered in the hurricane Carrie off the Azores on 21 September 1957. Out of the crew of 86 only six men survived.
She was underway in her capacity as a sail training/ cargo sailing ship. She was launched in July of 1905 at the Blohm & Voss shipyard in Hamburg.

Here is a wonderful and very informative web site on her and her various careers over the years -
http://pamir.chez-alice.fr/Voiliers/Classe_A/Pamir/Pamirwe.htm

The power of these 4 masted Barques was amazing. Here are some photos of her underway.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/jamikko/Pamir%201934.jpg


http://www.kolumbus.fi/jamikko/Pamir%201934%20a.jpg


http://www.kolumbus.fi/jamikko/Pamir%20SB.jpg


A film was made of her last voyage and demise, but I don't believe it was shown in the US. Has anyone seen it? The title was "Der Untergang der Pamir"

http://pamir.chez-alice.fr/Voiliers/Classe_A/Pamir/Images/Photos/cover42.jpg

[skuthorp]

I have some arial photos of the Lawhill and Pamir taken by a woman photographer off the Aussie coast in the 1930's. My mum knew the pilot, very well she said. He taught her to fly. They are rather foxed from storage in a shed unfortunately

[Geoffrey Harris]

My memory was a bit faulty as well, but I checked the book. The Preussen was beating down channel in November 1910, bound for Chile with a load of pianos, when a British steamer cut under her bow. She wasn't holed, but was sufficiently damaged that she could not get to weather and was driven ashore. Subsequent salvage efforts failed and she eventually broke up.

The Pamir was the last commercial square rigger to pass Cape Horn, in 1949, according to Spencer Appollonio's Last of the Cape Horners. I don't know whether sail training ships have passed the Horn since, but Appollonio was referring only to cargo ships. The only other ship to pass the Horn that year was Passat, now preserved in Travemunde.

Don't get me started on tall ships either (I know I am preaching to the choir). I couldn't bring myself to type it as one word. Somehow it is even worse that way. Is Masefield rolling over in his grave, or would he not mind? It does not show up elsewhere in his writing that I have read, which is admittedly not much, so my guess is that all he meant by it was a simple adjective followed by a noun and nothing more.

[mmd]

If by coining romantic - if inaccurate - terms such as "tallships", and building square-rigged ships that are genteel in purpose and automated in practice serves to expose millions to the concept of blue-water sailing, and of these millions some significant percentage go on to contribute to the actual preservation, construction, and sailing of historical vessels, then I say bring on the deck chairs and not-so-nautical terminology. Don't be so hard on folks who use buzzwords or only sail when coddled in the lap of luxury - at least they are involved peripherally. A much worse fate would be for all interest in the subject - regradless of accuracy - to fade away.

[P.L.Lenihan]

If by coining romantic - if inaccurate - terms such as "tallships", and building square-rigged ships that are genteel in purpose and automated in practice serves to expose millions to the concept of blue-water sailing, and of these millions some significant percentage go on to contribute to the actual preservation, construction, and sailing of historical vessels, then I say bring on the deck chairs and not-so-nautical terminology. Don't be so hard on folks who use buzzwords or only sail when coddled in the lap of luxury - at least they are involved peripherally. A much worse fate would be for all interest in the subject - regradless of accuracy - to fade away.


Well said Mr Mason, as much as it gives me the shivers to say so :)

Peter

[ahp]

I return to my concern about the Royal Clipper, how fast can the royals and top gallants, be let go, much less furled, in the event of a squall?

The Chinese knew a thing or two. The South China Sea is notorious for white squalls, the wind can go from 15 knots to 60 in about a minute, out of a clear sky ( jump discontinuity of the isobars for those meteorlogically inclined. They happen elsewhere too. A junk rig can dump its sail area in seconds.

[Tom Hunter]

She is a beautiful ship, why knock taking a square rigger on a vacation cruise?

Pamir went over because she was improperly loaded. That marked the end of cargo carrying sail training. Probably a good thing too, since the number of people alive who can properly load nitrates in a square rigged ship is zero.

The truth is Royal Clipper is providing jobs, including real sailing jobs. Some of the crew are serving salads, but others are in the rigging. Some of the crew on everything from airplanes to ocean liners serve salads as well, but that does not mean there are no skilled people aboard.

No one is going back to pounding a barque full of bird sh*t round Cape Horn. Sure it looks as romantic as all get out in the films from the 30s, but it was hard dangerous work, and there is nothing romatic about being swept off the deck in the roaring 40s, or having your training ship roll over in 1957.

Personally I think it is great that someone is building square riggers, and that there are enough people who want to go sailing to make it a viable business.

[Geoffrey Harris]

I second the well said. I agree that anyone keeping commercial sail alive should be applauded for their efforts, no matter how much we might nitpick their specific methods.

That said, I think what might be slightly incongruous about this ship is that it is a luxury liner based on a cargo ship (actually I don't remember the article referencing the Preussen beyond saying it was the last five masted full rigged ship before this one, but say it is based on it). Why not base it on a luxury liner? If a ship can carry passengers under sail and attract customers willing to pay for first class there is nothing wrong with giving it to them. But it ought to be a sailing ship that happens to be decadently appointed, rather than a cruise ship with a sailing rig provided for the sake of scenery. Again, the article is not conclusive one way or another. It does appear underrigged with excessive freeboard, but not as bad as some.

An example of someone doing this better in my opinion is Sea Cloud, formerly Marjorie Post's Hussar, a three masted auxiliary barque.

I guess the buzzword is the only thing that really bugs me. A lot of buzzwords are like that, come to think of it. When will people learn that hybrid is not a synonym for efficient? But I digress.

[ahp]

Anyone wanting to keep the traditions of commercial sail should remember the human cost that went with it: awful living conditions, rotten food, very dangerous work, physical abuse up to an including manslaughter, and pitiful pay. When a seaman was all done, if he survived, all he had to show for it was sea stories.