Biscuit/Plate joiner

[cs]

Okay I've been thinking about getting one and was wondeing about them. Is quality in a biscuit joiner that important? I will pay for quality on other hand tools, but in biscuit or plate joiners is it worth it?

BTW does anyone know the differnece between a biscuit joiner and a plate joiner?

Chad

[Canoez]

Basically, two names for the same animal AFAIK. I've got the Porter-Cable one and like it a lot. For the most part it does a great job. I do have two small problems with it. First, that it's long and difficult to get into tight spots if you need to. (Generally, with good planning this isn't really necessary.) Second, the narrow tube going to the dust collector jams up with shavings sometimes.

I think the big difference between the cheap ones and the more expensive ones is the flexibility of the fence (being able to put a biscuit in at an angle) and how easy the tool is to adjust. Motors, dust collection and the like would be the others.


There are other devices out there like Jim's Festool Domino which do a very similar job, but with better tolerances, based on what he said.

What do you plan to do with it?

[cs]

Have nothing in paticular that I was planning for it. I have been thinking for the last week or so of building some cutting boards and maybe a chess board but I really wouldn't need a biscuit joiner for that.

Chad

[Bob Perkins]

The Porter Cable is good. The fence is very easy to use (I have it) The Festool Domino is a similar tool - but costs a fortune, and it is a bit fragile IMHO. I'll wait for Domino 2.0 before deciding I can't live w/o it..

However, for super fast tenons, it can't be beat. The guys who do a lot of them really like 'em...

[Kim Whitmyre]

I just built a 4" high by 5" deep by 5' long simple teak mantle, homeowners just wanted it to match the tops of the built-in cabinets on either side of the fireplace. All mitered joints: piece of cake to glue up with biscuits to keep everything in place.

I have the Porter Cable machine.

[Rob Stokes, N. Vancouver]

I've got the Dewalt. I used it a few times, lent it out and it's not been returned. That was almost 2 years ago - I don't miss it.

You don't "need" a biscuit joiner. The biscuits don't add any strength to an edge glued joint and more often than not they "un-aligning " the boards rather than help them. A set of clamping cauls and a few minutes care will get you a LOT further.

You'd be further ahead to spend the $$ on a decent saw blade, or hand plane etc.

Rob

[Jim Ledger]

While it's true that you don't "need" a biscuit joiner they do enable a lot of alternative methods of joinery. Plywood casework is a good example. here they offer a fast, simple, accurate and versatile method of joining plywood parts in limitless ways. If there's a way to get a similar result using traditional methods I'd like to hear about it.


http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/P1010169-2.jpg

Here's a simple plywood box, an extremely useful form, being made with biscuits

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/P1010172-2.jpg

You have to have an idea about where a biscuit is an appropriate reinforcement or you might be tempted to make things using biscuits that require a stronger joint. I see them used for door joints, sometimes, but I don't think they're suitable for that application. OTOH, for reinforcing butt joints and miters and aligning edge joints they are extremely useful.

The Domino need to be used with some care but is also very useful, however, it's aimed more for the semi-professional because of the price.

To make best use of a biscuit joiner you should already have a decent table saw and a router or two, otherwise put your money into getting these tools set up first.

[Ron Williamson]

Agreed.
I use my Dewalt almost exclusively for building melamine and plywood drawer boxes.
Mission adequate.
R

[Bill R]

Ditto everything above. I don't use mine a lot, but there are enough times it has proven indispensable to justify the purchase.

I have the PC 553 and have been very happy with it.

[Ron Williamson]

IIRC you can get a biscuit bit for a router.Not quite as simple as a biscuit joiner,but you would get far more miles out of a router.
R

[kc8pql]

Have nothing in paticular that I was planning for it.

Then I wouldn't buy one. As noted above, plate jointers are very handy for some things (mostly having to do with cabinetmaking). It's not a universal tool that you'll use all the time if you have one.

[Tom Lathrop]

I used mine a lot when building my house and all the cabinetry in it. Since then, not so much and never in boatbuilding. I have the Freud which works fine with one exception. The plastic locking system for the fence slips and I have to add a small C clamp for peace of mind. This is a critical item and any plate joiner should have a fool proof system to lock the fence.

I think the plate joiner is better than anything else for quick and acceptable plywood cabinetry.

[Dan McCosh]

I've done about three projects using biscuits for one reason or another, and used a bit in a router to cut the slots. I spent some time trying to figure out how to modify one to clean out planking seams, however, but didn't pursue it very far.

[Bob Smalser]

Have nothing in paticular that I was planning for it.

A 1/4" slotting bit in your router and splines ripped from 1/4" plywood will do much of what folks use biscuits for. Stronger, but not as fast. You can stop the slots for miter joints too. If you aren't planning to build runs of plywood boxes, you can probably live without a biscuit joiner. I certainly do.

I am considering one of those Dominoes to use for face frame kitchen and bathroom cabinets however, although I also prefer to frame all plywood with solid and join using the router:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594265/216441041.jpg

Using a larger, heavy router, freehanding the sockets to a pencil line and getting out the male sliding dovetail on the router table is faster than cutting M/T joints on mortising machine and TS.

[Canoez]

While it's true that you don't "need" a biscuit joiner they do enable a lot of alternative methods of joinery. Plywood casework is a good example. here they offer a fast, simple, accurate and versatile method of joining plywood parts in limitless ways. If there's a way to get a similar result using traditional methods I'd like to hear about it.


http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/P1010169-2.jpg

Here's a simple plywood box, an extremely useful form, being made with biscuits

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/P1010172-2.jpg

You have to have an idea about where a biscuit is an appropriate reinforcement or you might be tempted to make things using biscuits that require a stronger joint. I see them used for door joints, sometimes, but I don't think they're suitable for that application. OTOH, for reinforcing butt joints and miters and aligning edge joints they are extremely useful.

The Domino need to be used with some care but is also very useful, however, it's aimed more for the semi-professional because of the price.

To make best use of a biscuit joiner you should already have a decent table saw and a router or two, otherwise put your money into getting these tools set up first.

I've been using mine mostly for cabinet construction. Generally, I use it for applying the face frames to the cabinet to help align everything as it glues. I've also used it to apply solid stock to the front of plywood shelving. Very good for that.

I've used it for making case "boxes", but I much prefer the undersized bits in my router to make dado slots. (Or dado on a tablesaw) to make the corner joints. I just think it's stronger.

The big worry that I always have is what goes on when the wood expands and contracts with the biscuit in place. (Seasonal expansion and contraction) I built a set of bookshelves from cherry ply and solid stock about 10 years ago, and they appear to be holding out very well, thank you.

One thing to keep in mind 'tho - if you've ever seen a joint that has a biscuit in it that wasn't well finished and gets wet, it's not a pretty sight. The biscuit swells and usually splits the wood it's in if not properly glued and finished.

[John Meachen]

I bought a cutter for cutting biscuit recesses for use in a router,much less expensive than a dedicated cutter and entirely adequate for joining flat panels.

[cs]

I wish had the skill at joinery that Smashler has and maybe it is because I need to work on them.

One of the things about the biscuit joiner that I was wondering about is it worth the extra money to go with one with a fully adjustable fence or stay with one with the standard stops? The price is around $100 compared to $170.

Chad

[codfish bob]

Biscuit joiners do a great job of reinforcing the butted joint.I would get the basic model for occasional use. For extra strength, double up the biscuits in the joint(i.e. table legs to aprons and leave space between.)I rarely use the adjustable angle feature of the fence, I simply glue and nail miters since they really should not bear the load of construction.For quick butt joints use the kreg jig and glue. Pocketscrews work well, align perfectly and no need to clamp and wait on the joint.

[Lew Barrett]

I bought a Lemello at a garage sale for $200. I didn't have a specific use for it at the time, but the price was right and the machine, although an older model, looked almost unused.
I haven't have a cabinet project per se since I bought it, and have continued to use my standard joining system; splines and loose mortice and tenon joinery, as defined by Bob S above, since I got it. I keep looking for something to use it on (miter joints seem the most likely candidate for what I do) but I have managed to own it for almost 2 years without firing it off. Everything on the boat gets a "real" joint one way or another.
Make of this what you will.

[dmg]

For what it's worth, I got a Freud in 1988. Has been fine until a month ago when the switch finally gave up. Do not use it for that many different things. For most of the time I've had it, just used for aligning LOT's of larger cross section trim around doors, windows, and some cabinetry. Sometimes with glue, sometimes just the biscuit and let moisture snug it up.

Now, since the tool owes me nothing, I will replace it with a DeWalt.

Dave

[wetstuff]

I buy cheapo tools from Harbor Freight that I may only have a short term use for. I think the Biscuit Jointer was $30 ..well worth having for simple butt joints. I have a collection of metal working and air tools that have saved me many trips to a machine shop for trivial jobs.

[Keith Wilson]

I use a router bit to make the slots; it cost about $20 and works almost every place I'd want to use a biscuit. Of course, as Bob says, you don't even need a biscuit, a spline will do fine in most cases.

[Bob Cleek]

"Plywood casework is a good example. here they offer a fast, simple, accurate and versatile method of joining plywood parts in limitless ways. If there's a way to get a similar result using traditional methods I'd like to hear about it."

Smalser pretty much said it. I've found the same over the years. If you have a lot of plywood casework to produce, the biscuit joiner comes into its own. Time saved is money made. On the other hand, you can't really consider anything put together with biscuits "fine woodworking." In my limited experience with them, I'd have to say that to really get the most efficiency out of them, you have to buy a top of the line model. (As is the case with most tools.) Repeatable accuracy is important and you want to be able to rely on the fencing system, not be measuring excessively to ensure accuratce placement. Unless you are in the business of putting together kitchen cabinets every day and all day long, it isn't a tool I'd invest the money in when the alternatives are so much less expensive. Just because Norm makes it look easy, doesn't mean it is. I just love how he just whizzes through a project without ever encountering a hitch! I'd like to see, "Now we just assemble the back and sides with our biscuit joiner, apply some glue to the slot and the biscuit and ... oops! It looks like we're off by about a quarter of an inch!"

http://www.toolstoday.com/images/PRODUCT/icon/tt55393.jpg

[Jim Ledger]

"Plywood casework is a good example. here they offer a fast, simple, accurate and versatile method of joining plywood parts in limitless ways. If there's a way to get a similar result using traditional methods I'd like to hear about it."

Smalser pretty much said it. I've found the same over the years. If you have a lot of plywood casework to produce, the biscuit joiner comes into its own. Time saved is money made. On the other hand, you can't really consider anything put together with biscuits "fine woodworking." In my limited experience with them, I'd have to say that to really get the most efficiency out of them, you have to buy a top of the line model. (As is the case with most tools.) Repeatable accuracy is important and you want to be able to rely on the fencing system, not be measuring excessively to ensure accuratce placement. Unless you are in the business of putting together kitchen cabinets every day and all day long, it isn't a tool I'd invest the money in when the alternatives are so much less expensive. Just because Norm makes it look easy, doesn't mean it is. I just love how he just whizzes through a project without ever encountering a hitch! I'd like to see, "Now we just assemble the back and sides with our biscuit joiner, apply some glue to the slot and the biscuit and ... oops! It looks like we're off by about a quarter of an inch!"

http://www.toolstoday.com/images/PRODUCT/icon/tt55393.jpg

Mr. Cleek, that quote was Ledger, not Smalser

Could you explain a bit about using that lock miter bit instead of a biscuit joiner?

This is my lock miter set-up. It's not usually an option I would use instead of a biscuit.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/searover1916/P1010052-1.jpg

Splines have their place, I suppose. Some guys like them, but I rarely use them anymore. More trouble than they're worth, in most cases. Though they may have certain advantages, occasionally, they're useless for plywood carcasses. Glueing a piece of hardwood onto the edge of a piece of plywood, why bother? Just glue it on. Unless the spline and groove are very closely fit, then there's a good chance that the joint is weakened. The slightest misalignment or piece of junk in the groove will keep the joint out of alignment or prevent it from closing at the worst possible time.

As for routing a biscuit? I'm not seeing it as a suitable method. Maybe for putting some cuts in the edge of a board for edge glueing, but not at all suitable for carcase work.

[cathouse willy]

I find they are really handy for edge joining boards.For years I swore by dowels and a jig of some kind.On a whim I bought a fairly high end DeWalt from the local warranty repair centerand I've been very pleased with it.The prices for reman tools are very good and they come with the same warranty as new,at least the DeWalt did.Sometimes the pleasure of using a well made tool makes up for not having a good reason to buy it.