Cheapo landing craft?

[dstreck]

Problem: we need to get building materials to an undeveloped island where we're building a cabin, and all we currently have is a 12' aluminum skiff with a 9.9HP Merc.

Twist: the site is in Nova Scotia, and we live in the States. We go up for a couple of weeks in the late summer every year to camp and work on the site. Sometimes we fly and rent a car, other times we load up the truck and trailer and take the ferry.

So, we need to come up with some sort of barge/landing craft that we can build or buy down here and trailer up, and that can then live in NS at a friend's house. In the past we've hired local fishermen to ferry big stuff out, but we want to be able to do more ourselves.

Anyone have any ideas? Home-built plywood landing craft? Take a beat up "party barge" pontoon boat and convert it? It needs to be cheap, trailerable, fairly seaworthy and carry a decent load. And cheap.

Did I mention it has to be cheap? I dream about buying one of these: http://www.munsonboats.com/23photos.html, but $40,000 is about $39,000 out of my league.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[paladin]

Ted Brewer and Jim Betts collaborated on a barge goodie that was 16 feet long......but could be extended to say 20-22 feet with a 8' 6 " beam, flat bottom thing.....had a tiny little house and a landing craft drop down door.....plywood...called the GP-16 and etc. Plans available from Rob Bruce in Oz.....

[johnw]

Would a low-sided garvey do the job, or do you really need the ramp?

[Thorne]

Can you be more specific? "At a friend's house" = in the water or on trailer? "Seaworthy" = 2 miles of calm bay or 30 miles of exposed blue water? Max weight of possible materials load on boat? Beaching on sand, rocks; or using a home-made pier?

Sure seems like you could continue to rent local boats for less than it would cost you to build. Alternately consider getting a boat too old for fishing but still good enough to float your stuff.

[Ian McColgin]

johnw's right. Can't get cheaper for the capacity than a garvey slpapped up in plywood with fir chine logs, stringers and gunnels and maybe a big fir transom pad. CPES the plywood before glassing. Put some skid strakes on the bottom.

G'luck

[J P]

How about building something on an inflatable? Maybe you could find a used gear boat from a river outfitter.

http://www.dib-boats.com/28-foot-river-freighter.html

[Canoez]

I seem to recall an article in Fine Homebuilding where a fellow was building a camp on an island for a friend. He needed to get stock out to the island and used two canoes lashed to some 2x framing like a catamaran. He put heavy small things in the hulls as ballast and then the plywood and dimensional lumber across the 2x's. He had a small gas outboard to propel the craft.

IIRC, it was somewhere up in Michigan on a relatively large lake. Probably not good for rough or big open water/long distances, but if it's not far and calm, this may be one approach.

[paladin]

Check out the site bateau.com, look under power boats, house boat 18, just leave off the top of the house and you have your landing craft..and you could probably sell it, rent it, or have further use for it as a delivery vehicle.

[dstreck]

The boat (scow, barge, raft, whatever) would live for 50 months out of the year on a trailer (or up on blocks) in a friend's yard. Since the island has no dock or wharf, we'd need to be able to drive her right up onto a rocky beach and roll the stuff right off, so I think some type of bow door/ramp is necessary. Its a good beach, gravel and shingle and gently sloping into the water. Just a flush-decked barge would work, using wood ramps to dolly the stuff off. We're talking about some fairly heavy items (wood stove, furniture, appliances, and God-knows how many tons of building materials) and passing them up over the gunwale to someone standing knee-deep in water (like the last trip) aint gonna cut it.

As far as "seaworthy" goes, the island is 1 nm offshore, in a very calm bay, protected from everything but a snotty NE wind. No worries there. Speed is not an issue either. Just looking for a no-nonsense working vessel that I can bang around and not worry too much about, and that will carry 2000lbs or so without swamping in 6 inch chop.

[Canoez]

A slightly over the top suggestion:

http://www.calequipment.com/detailpages/LCM8.html

[Bob Smalser]

If you already have a boat, the simplest method is to build a barge and tow it. It'll be the cheapest, and that way you can put off offloading til morning and still have boat transportation.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2595357/109849943.jpg

Two of these flat-topped scow hulls connected by a raised platform would carry a lot of lumber. Gardner's Volume I has plans for similar. Any cheap 4/4 stock will work. I use this one in logging operations. Sink the hulls when not in use and you don't even have to caulk seams. Pump them out using any 12v bilge pump and your truck battery. Ugly enough to deter theft, too. ;)

[John Turpin]

I might look for an aging, unwanted pontoon boat or HobieCat (whose trampoline could be decked over). Either could be pretty easily brought into barge service without too much investment.

[openboater]

steel barge. like this, or any weld shop can build a steel box with a slanted bow.


http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatFullDetails.jsp?boat_id=1109737&ybw=&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=26664&url=

[mmd]

I have a book chronicling the Lahave River valley's history. One of the turn-of-the-last-century photos shows two dories lashed together into a sort of a catamaran using small tree trunks. A makeshift deck is fastened to the trees, and a sort of ramp is visible between the two hulls. Two gentlemen are standing on the strand, posing for the photograph. A team of oxen are calmly chewing their cuds while standing on the platform. Teams of oxen regularly weigh in at close to two tons.

I figure a pair of cheap ply dories could be slapped together, a deck rigged, and used for a few seasons for under $1000. When you're done bulding, his & hers dories on an island in Nova Scotia would be appropriate.

[MiddleAgesMan]

Pontoon boats have very little reserve buoyancy. The two floats are tied together with a flat deck that may appear ideal for large loads but the cylindrical hulls will go down quickly once the craft has been loaded past their horizontal centerlines.

Bob S.'s log barges would be ideal IMO, either singly or in a pair. Their lack of a ramp at the bow shouldn't be too hard to overcome with a little ingenuity. Assuming you have tides of at least 6 feet or so you could anchor them in position on a high tide, set some blocking under the sterns and when the tide goes out and the shore-side bow gets lower and lower you could roll stuff right off with a little assistance from minimal ramps.

[paladin]

Building a barge as per Smalser has merits.... to haul 2000 pounds is to displace 30 cubic feet of water. A barge 8 feet by 18 feet will have a 144 sq. foot footprint......2000 pounds would be equal to about 2.5-3 inches immersion.....

[Ian McColgin]

Pontoon boats haven't the loading capacity. Most stuff you'll carry will not be rolling stock and the utility of a drop bow does not normally outweigh the simplicity of a fixed bow. Having off-loaded both types I'm sure of this - the drop bow is nice but not often worth the extra hassel.

If you pick your tides, you can run her up at say half-tide dropping, have a beer, and then unload from all sides well before she floats free again. Whatever you do use the tides - even a small garvey (8x16) can handle 4 tons or more, which is not something you want to pull up on the beach.

A garvey with a fixed bow can still off-load a wheeled vechicle if you set it on planks athwart the gunnels and lay down a temporary ramp.

Store her upsidedown on horses.

[djn]

We did exactly what you are doing thirty years ago in the U.P. of Michigan. My dad bought a beat up pontoon boat and we used that to transport supplies and us....and beer. Built an "A" frame with two wings. I think it was about 2000 sq feet when done. Then we used that pontoon boat all summer long as a fishing boat, swimming boat, supply boat, and when we got old enough....a party boat. It had a 25hp motor that we brought home every winter.

[Spokaloo]

Since we are talking opinions...

Paladin's reccomendation of the HB18 from Bateau:

http://www.bateau.com/images/boatpics/HB18_bimini_ramp_350.jpg

Sack the cabin, put a phone booth in the back next to the motor to keep dry, and make the bow door wider.

D Hylan boats' Ben Garvey:

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/images/400126.JPG

Make the bow joints stronger, then cut a door and frame it in. If you have an atv or something too wide for the door, put ramps over the bow transom.

Boatplans.dk's garvey:

http://www.boatplans.dk/images/mogf21/mogf21-1.jpg

I wouldn't build the boat, but this one shows the layout.

E

[Tom Robb]

One of Phil Bolger's books (forgot which) shows an LCM (landing craft mower) w/ a drop off-loading door for a similar island cargo job. After moving the building cargo it will still be useful for getting stuff to and from the island, whereas an ad hoc lash-up would have little further use even if it worked for the original job. Think water borne pickup truck.

[outofthenorm]

Check out this other thread from a few day ago. Might be just what you need.

http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=74526
http://www.admiraldrive.com/images/products_ice.jpg

[dstreck]

Sounds like I have to sack the pontoon boat option. Too bad. I could pick up a junker for a few hundred dollars and sawzall off all the crap I dont need, but the points about their lack of suitability for heavy loads are well taken.

Unpowered barge is an intriguing idea, but I cant see my current 9.9 powered skiff making much headway pushing a fully loaded barge. Plus I'd like to have something that is self-powered, to free the skiff up for other things (like rescuing the guys on the barge when it sinks)

Guess I'm leaning toward a plywood landing craft type vessel. Which sucks, cause I hate plywood.

[Green Boat]

Where is your island located? I know of atleast one old barge around here that would do just fine

[johnw]

Sounds like I have to sack the pontoon boat option. Too bad. I could pick up a junker for a few hundred dollars and sawzall off all the crap I dont need, but the points about their lack of suitability for heavy loads are well taken.

Unpowered barge is an intriguing idea, but I cant see my current 9.9 powered skiff making much headway pushing a fully loaded barge. Plus I'd like to have something that is self-powered, to free the skiff up for other things (like rescuing the guys on the barge when it sinks)

Guess I'm leaning toward a plywood landing craft type vessel. Which sucks, cause I hate plywood.

Dunno, djn made a case for the pontoon boat a little farther up the thread. If it worked for him, why shouldn't it work for you?

[dstreck]

Where is your island located? I know of atleast one old barge around here that would do just fine

Eastern Shore, a few miles from Sheet Harbour. Any idea about size, condition, etc?

[Ben Fuller]

I hate to suggest this in this august body of DIY folks but I did see that someone is doing blow molded plastic bow ramp boats big enough to hold an atv. They are butt ugly but I suspect pretty cheap.

The state of Maine working equivalent is the Carolina Skiff, basically a FG garvey. ATV ramps, the kind that are use with your pickup for snowmobiles or other such get used to roll things up and down over the bow.

[CCutshall]

For what it's worth:
Nate Bowditch in Lincolnville, Maine sells these:
http://www.islandpicnics.com/pioner.htm

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Your 12' skiff and 9.9-hp motor imahy be a bit light, but may serve as a tug. If not, upgrade to a 16-footer with an appropriate motor.

When we've cruised Baie Georgienne (Georgian Bay) we notice that the construction of island cottages is facilitated by simple barges pushed by aluminum skiffs. These barges typically have sufficient displacement to support a Bobcat, or a cement mixer, or a stack of lumber, or a pile of gravel, sand, and bags of cement, just not all in the same trip.

Since it seems that you desire something trailerable, how 'bout a well-used pontoon boat? This type of boat ahs been common long enough for old ones with shabby seat coverings and scruffy deck carpeting to be avbailable for cheap, especially since you wouldn't need a good motor(s) on it.

Moby Nick

[Kaa]

Sounds like I have to sack the pontoon boat option. Too bad. I could pick up a junker for a few hundred dollars and sawzall off all the crap I dont need, but the points about their lack of suitability for heavy loads are well taken.

Um. It all depends on the size. Large pontoons can handle big loads. There are tons of houseboats that are just a platform on top of two big steel pontoons.

How much load do you want to carry at any single time? Even if a basic Hobie cat is too small it doesn't mean all pontoons are too small.

Kaa

[Spokaloo]

Just keep in mind that PPI is not linear with pontoons. Once you get to a certain point, your mass carried pushes the 'toons past their maximum diameter. Less available buoyancy above a certain point doesn't exactly make for ideal load-carrying in rougher chop. Traditional hulls have much more reserve buoyancy and a decreased risk of wet loads or headind under.


E

[Kaa]

Just keep in mind that PPI is not linear with pontoons. Once you get to a certain point, your mass carried pushes the 'toons past their maximum diameter. Less available buoyancy above a certain point doesn't exactly make for ideal load-carrying in rougher chop. Traditional hulls have much more reserve buoyancy and a decreased risk of wet loads or headind under.

The original poster says it's 1nm in a very calm bay.

The overriding advantage of pontoons is simplicity and cheapness. You need to carry 1 ton? Go nuts and make a pontoon with a designed load of 20. It's not going to be much more expensive than a 1-ton one and will give you peace of mind. In this context brute force works perfectly well.

Kaa

[Spokaloo]

Maybe its just where I have spent time (protected San Juan islands / Puget Sound), but while its very calm most days, it has teeth on what seems to be the only day you can make the trip often enough.

E

[Iceboy]

Just get a few old pontoons and put all the pontoon tanks under one frame like a log raft. Jim....

[Bill R]

Just get a few old pontoons and put all the pontoon tanks under one frame like a log raft.

Saw that very thing in in a cove just south of Sullivan, ME last summer. A stack of lumber on a homemade multiple pontoon barge being pushed by a small aluminum skiff.

[ssor]

Let's see 8 foot beam 3 foot deep and 24 feet long . volume is 384 cuft allowing 1 foot freeboard .384 cu ft of water at 65 pounds per equals about 12 tons.

[George Roberts]

It is easy to build a boat that is too large or too complex for your needs.

Wood floats. Buy a load of wood, band it up, and float it over.

[Tom Robb]

FWIW, if you'd like to know, and I'm guessing you'd not, Bolger's LCLM is his Charity design 25'6" x 8'x 9", displaces 10,000lbs and is a sort of cross between a garvey and a Swampscot dory. Page 110, 30 Odd Boats. You'd end up w/ a useful boat.

[dstreck]

Thanks for all the responses.Lots of useful info. Maybe I'm overthinking this thing. As George said, wood floats, so I could get a lot of the materials across simply by banding them and floating them. Wouldn't help with the woodstove or all the ready-mix for the foundation though. The more I think about it, the more I think raft/barge, plus a bigger skiff to push/pull it.

Or just make 500 trips in the 12 footer.

I'm beginning to wish I didn't buy an island!

[ssor]

A small cement mixer would allow you the mix concrete from quikrete mix and they come in 80 pound bags. Build a barge when you are done with it take it apart and build a shed.

[Ian McColgin]

Making up a workable timber raft is harder than it looks. Further, you'll need to make it up and take it down in the water - a miserable job. You will be seriously happier with a biggish cheap garvey that your OB can push along at a gentle displacement speed.

Think a bit ahead of time as to the timber and other bulky stuff you might be hauling and make the boat around that.

As I mentioned above, if you load and off-load with tides, you can work dry and not subject the bottom to nasty scratching with a few tons aboard, which you probably can't do effectivly anyhow.

[Bob Smalser]

Wouldn't help with the woodstove or all the ready-mix for the foundation though. The more I think about it, the more I think raft/barge, plus a bigger skiff to push/pull it.



Build your barge and try it out with your existing skiff before spending unnecessary dough. Do the bulk of the work by towing. I routinely tow large, heavy logs with just oars. Get the barge moving off the beach and into deep water via poling and you might be surprised how easy it tows. I unhook under way and finish by pushing the load into shore.

Your wood stove pales in comparison to the 150 sheets of plywood, 60 bags of Sacrete, 40 bundles of asphalt shingles, 10 rolls of felt, 5 rolls of Tyvek, 20 windows, 10 doors, 3000lbs of Hardiplank, etc, et al, ad infinitum that either can't get wet or won't float you're gonna have to buy, load, tow, and unload. I'd configure my temporary barge and dock to skid materials off the barge and up the hill to the house site using skids and winch.

[dstreck]

Making up a workable timber raft is harder than it looks. Further, you'll need to make it up and take it down in the water - a miserable job. You will be seriously happier with a biggish cheap garvey that your OB can push along at a gentle displacement speed.

Point well taken, although I plan to build a post-and beam cabin, so I think it may be feasable to lash together the 40 or so main timbers in bunches of 4 or so and tow them across. Easier than wrestling with massive bundles of 2x4s. Everything else will by necessity have to come over dry. Could a dinky 9.9 really push a raft weighing a couple of tons without blowing up?

Your wood stove pales in comparison to the 150 sheets of plywood, 60 bags of Sacrete, 40 bundles of asphalt shingles, 10 rolls of felt, 5 rolls of Tyvek, 20 windows, 10 doors, 3000lbs of Hardiplank, etc, et al, ad infinitum that either can't get wet or won't float you're gonna have to buy, load, tow, and unload. I'd configure my temporary barge and dock to skid materials off the barge and up the hill to the house site using skids and winch.

Trust me, I've been thinking (freaking out) about the sheer volume of crap that we have to get out there. We built a tiny shed on the island two summers ago and even that required loading a good-sized lobster boat to the gunwales and then many hours of labor to get the stuff up to the site. Even the small cabin I have planned (1 1/2 stories, 16'x24') is gonna be a major undertaking for me and my wife. As an added bonus, the building site is up a steep hill with no clear route from shore. Gonna be a lot of sweating and cursing.

[Bob Smalser]

As an added bonus, the building site is up a steep hill with no clear route from shore. Gonna be a lot of sweating and cursing.

Instead of a new boat I'd consider buying a diesel skid steer and pay to have it ferried. You can dig with the bucket and mount forks on it to move material and serve as your construction crane. You can put in a proper drainfield with it instead of having to go outdoors to a privy. Septic tanks can be laid up in place using wire fencing and mortar.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3297171/300620961.jpg

They should be relatively cheap now with the housing bust. Sell it when done and then upgrade your boat. I like Case in skid loaders. The pic is a large JD hoe, but Pape makes forks for smaller buckets, too.

[StevenBauer]

Here's the GP16 that Chuck mentioned:

http://www.hotkey.net.au/%7Erobruce/F1000017s.jpg

http://www.hotkey.net.au/%7Erobruce/GP-18%20Jas%20on%20beach.jpg

http://www.hotkey.net.au/%7Erobruce/Dsc00137.jpg

[StevenBauer]

I forgot to say: What a great project! Will you have a guest mooring? I could trade carpentry work for mooring fees. I've built a couple of post and beam buildings before. :D


Steven

[ssor]

It is entirely posible that someone in that neighborhood has a barge for hire. That would certainly be more cost effective than building one for a limited need. Material cost for a simple wooden barge would likely exceed 1500 dollars.

[Woxbox]

I'm wondering what an old dumpster would cost. One of those long shallow ones often used at house rehab sites. About 6x20 feet. Instant barge?

[dstreck]

I forgot to say: What a great project! Will you have a guest mooring? I could trade carpentry work for mooring fees. I've built a couple of post and beam buildings before.

Mooring in our cove is always free, as long as you either: (1) help build, haul or cook, or (2) bring beer.

I built my shop post and beam, and I'm sold on it as a building method. Lots of work to get the pieces cut, but the frame goes together in a matter of hours if you've got the manpower.

Here are a few photos of our island project so far:

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/davestreck/DSC00970.jpg
View of the cove, showing our current transportation

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/davestreck/DSC00073.jpg
Unloading materials for the shed. The lobsterboat is grounded, but will float as the tide rises

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/davestreck/DSC00128.jpg
The completed shed, with all our camping gear and tools stored for next year

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/davestreck/DSC01001.jpg
The view from the cliffs

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/davestreck/cabin.jpg
Plan for the cabin

[dstreck]

Here's the GP16 that Chuck mentioned:

Scrap the cabin and build a bigger bow door and that would be perfect.

[dstreck]

Instead of a new boat I'd consider buying a diesel skid steer and pay to have it ferried. You can dig with the bucket and mount forks on it to move material and serve as your construction crane. You can put in a proper drainfield with it instead of having to go outdoors to a privy. Septic tanks can be laid up in place using wire fencing and mortar.

Septic is gonna be an issue. Island is basically spruce forest on 12" of peaty soil over solid bedrock. Makes foundations easy and pit privies impossible. My wife wants a $3000 propane powered incinerating toilet. I like a roll of TP, a flashlight and a walk in the woods.

Either way, we're like Quint...we need a bigger boat.

[Bob Smalser]

Gorgeous site. Did you design the cabin frame? What do you do for a water supply?

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/davestreck/cabin.jpg

[dstreck]

Gorgeous site. Did you design the cabin frame? What do you do for a water supply?

I designed the frame in Google SketchUp. We're planning on using a rainwater catchment system with cistern and handpump.

[ssor]

Composting toilets are very much an option. After that your grey water disposal is the only concern. On the farm the kitchen sink and the bath tub drained into the swamp.

[Tylerdurden]

Any help you need on Alternate energy let me know. Mark

[Tom Robb]

Have you considered hireing the haul? No doubt there are commercial tug/barge operations that can move the entire load in one go and be done w/ the heavy lifting. Some things are not worth doing yourself - life is too short to waste.

[Bob Smalser]

I designed the frame in Google SketchUp.

I'd spend a couple hundred bucks having those rafter plates sized for your local snow load by a structural engineer.

[StevenBauer]

Bob, the frames I built were very similar to this one. The plate was 8" x 8" hemlock, I think the climate there is similar to ours. Rafters were 4" x 8" 's 4' on center. Main beams were 8" x 12" x 20' on 10' centers. Lot's of frames here in Maine built to those scantlings. Shelter Institute design.

http://www.shelterinstitute.com/images/navtimber/20x30_3d_2.jpg


Steven

[johnw]

Here's the GP16 that Chuck mentioned:

http://www.hotkey.net.au/%7Erobruce/F1000017s.jpg

http://www.hotkey.net.au/%7Erobruce/GP-18%20Jas%20on%20beach.jpg

http://www.hotkey.net.au/%7Erobruce/Dsc00137.jpg

Of course, making this longer would be the simplest thing in the world, and would add to its capacity.

[Tylerdurden]

I am wondering if a cement barge would do the trick.
Just weld up a simple armature and either pour or spray cement.
Simple and cheap.

[Bob Smalser]

Bob, the frames I built were very similar to this one. The plate was 8" x 8" hemlock...

I'm wouldn't be comfortable with the 12' rafter plate span shown in dstrek's drawing bearing on only a (probably green) 8X8 without running the numbers. Even with a 12-12 pitch. Helluva lot easier to haul in a couple 8X12's than adding posts to the finished cabin if the 8X8's deflect. The difference in the design values between green and seasoned stock is huge, with attendant care required in copying designs. The differences in hemlock are among the most dramatic. Don't guess.

[Milo Christensen]

So we're advising this guy to buy lumber and plywood to build a barge to haul lumber and plywood? Plan to recycle the barge and it's free.

[essaunders]

So we're advising this guy to buy lumber and plywood to build a barge to haul lumber and plywood? Plan to recycle the barge and it's free.

so, Build the barn on the coast, flip it over (are roof shingles rated for immersion?), tow it out (full of supplies, of course) and flip it back over on the island? No problem!!

[johnw]

Weren't there people on the east coast of northern England who lived for centuries in houses that looked like upside down Viking ships?

[Tylerdurden]

At least with my cement barge you could drag it ashore and use it as a foundation.

[J P]

Dave, that looks like a nice manageable little cabin frame design. I don’t see where you’ve specified the timbers you’ll be using … but I’d agree with Bob that an 8x8 hemlock rafter plate spanning 12’ probably wouldn’t calc out. Good idea to run some numbers on the structural members using local design criteria. It shouldn’t take much time to check ALL the members for vertical loads on a small frame like that. How’s your wind exposure at the site?

Since you’ll likely be moving the timbers by hand it might be worth keeping the scantlings on the lighter side. An 8x12 – 24’ might weight a couple hundred pounds more than an 8x8, depending on what material you’re working with. It could make a difference in your raising plan, manpower, food, beer requirements …
If you wanted to (or needed to) use an 8x8 for the rafter plate and it calcs out too small for the job, you could probably add some support under it. The floor girt in the eave wall bent probably won’t have much load on it, and it looks like you’ve got knee braces under them, so you might look at putting in a couple little posts between the plate and the floor girt.

Will you be using pegged mortise and tenon joinery for the frame?
Pay attention to the joinery design of the 3-way connection of the upper floor members at the middle posts of the wall bents. Those 3-ways can really chew up the cross section of a post and the center floor girt will likely be in tension. Lots of old barns show some stress or failure at those joints.

What will you enclose/insulate with?

Interesting project. I’m facing some vaguely similar challenges with a property I bought on the ‘far’ side of a river. Planning on a little cabin there and everything has to be boated over.

G’luck

[ccmanuals]

There are some interesting craft up for auction through the GSA. Here is a link:

http://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/aucindx/

[J P]

So we're advising this guy to buy lumber and plywood to build a barge to haul lumber and plywood? Plan to recycle the barge and it's free.

The old timers on the Salmon river, Idaho used to do just that.

http://www.idahoptv.org/productions/salmonriver/scow.html

[John Turpin]

At least with my cement barge you could drag it ashore and use it as a foundation.

If he were to build a ferrocement landing craft, he could drag it ashore and it would become both foundation and cabin.

[DLC]

do you not have herring punts there?
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s8/a2by4/WA2053_Skiff_Two_03.jpg

[dstreck]

Dave, that looks like a nice manageable little cabin frame design. I don’t see where you’ve specified the timbers you’ll be using … but I’d agree with Bob that an 8x8 hemlock rafter plate spanning 12’ probably wouldn’t calc out. Good idea to run some numbers on the structural members using local design criteria. It shouldn’t take much time to check ALL the members for vertical loads on a small frame like that. How’s your wind exposure at the site?

Yeah, I drew the plans using a common rafter system, but I'm probably better off going with a rafter & purlin system to transfer all the roof load directly to the main posts. That way I can reduce the plate to a 6x6 since its only serving to tie the bents together laterally. Thats how I did my barn and it worked out good. I wanted to do a 1 1/2 story design with a knee wall in the loft to gain some headroom considering that the width is only 16' and even with a 12/12 pitch its tight upstairs.

Since you’ll likely be moving the timbers by hand it might be worth keeping the scantlings on the lighter side. An 8x12 – 24’ might weight a couple hundred pounds more than an 8x8, depending on what material you’re working with. It could make a difference in your raising plan, manpower, food, beer requirements …

Biggest timbers will be 8x8x16s for the short sills; long sills will be scarfed together out of 8x8x14s. A pine 8x8x16 weighs about 350lb when green. Hopefully they'll shed some of that weight before we have to haul them over!

Will you be using pegged mortise and tenon joinery for the frame?

Yeah. Drawbored with white oak pegs.

Pay attention to the joinery design of the 3-way connection of the upper floor members at the middle posts of the wall bents. Those 3-ways can really chew up the cross section of a post and the center floor girt will likely be in tension. Lots of old barns show some stress or failure at those joints.

Using collar ties at the rafter peaks might reduce some of the outward thrust from the rafters, or I might use a dovetailed wedged tenon in the post-to beam connection to resist that thrust.

What will you enclose/insulate with?

Stud-and-infill. Let-in 2x4s 24" OC with 1x8 T&G spruce sheathing, which is cheap up there (and a hell of a lot easier to haul that 4x8 ply). Probably go uninsulated at first, since we only go up there in the summer. Fiberglass batt insulation eventually, finished off with T&G V-groove pine inside.

[skuthorp]

How about a composting toilet?
http://www.separett.eu/?gclid=CP2t_LyumpECFRjmYAod7SccMA
http://www.nature-loo.com.au/
http://www.sewerage-waste-water-treatment.com/landing-page.aspx?id=195&k=composting%20toilet

Heaps more on the net. What are local reg's?
Love the Island but it looks a bit cold for me.

[dstreck]

How about a composting toilet?
http://www.separett.eu/?gclid=CP2t_LyumpECFRjmYAod7SccMA
http://www.nature-loo.com.au/
http://www.sewerage-waste-water-treatment.com/landing-page.aspx?id=195&k=composting%20toilet

Heaps more on the net. What are local reg's?
Love the Island but it looks a bit cold for me.

My main concern with composters is that the cabin sits idle for 11 months a year, much of that below freezing, and I dread the thought of arriving one summer to find a crapper full of year-old percolating goo. Just squeamish, I guess. My wife likes the idea of the incinerator because it promises no odor, and the only residue is dry ash. I worry about being blown through the roof with my pants around my ankles because I wanted to smoke while relieving mysef.

Local regs in the Nova Scotia boonies are a bit of a joke. All the locals laughed at me when I asked about building codes, etc. No one pays much attention to the island camps, and good luck getting an inspector to ever vist. Short of building a nuclear waste dump or an industrial pig farm, I'm pretty much free to do as I want.

[Ian McColgin]

The AirHead will do the job. You can let it perk over the winter and spread it in the spring when you first arrive.

Incinerating heads are not so energy efficient.

[J P]

Yeah, I drew the plans using a common rafter system, but I'm probably better off going with a rafter & purlin system to transfer all the roof load directly to the main posts.

There's trade-offs with any system; take away from 'here' and you'll probably have to add it 'there'. A frame like you have drawn is fairly easy to erect. Kind of like platform framing in that you can build your upper floor structure and then work the roof framing from it.

Biggest timbers will be 8x8x16s for the short sills; long sills will be scarfed together out of 8x8x14s. A pine 8x8x16 weighs about 350lb when green. Hopefully they'll shed some of that weight before we have to haul them over!.

"Sills" being the timbers on the foundation walls? What sizes are you thinking of for the floor beams?

Using collar ties at the rafter peaks might reduce some of the outward thrust from the rafters, or I might use a dovetailed wedged tenon in the post-to beam connection to resist that thrust.

Using high collar ties only (in tension) to handle the thrust at the bottom can add a lot of bending stress to the rafters and they should to be sized and detailed for it. If you can incorporate an adequately sized ridge beam into the design you could eliminate the outward thrust at the rafter feet and also reduce the loads on the plate timbers. Of course you'd have to support the ridge with posts or headers or whatever, so again there are trade-offs. For a short span, low knee wall building like this, I'd be inclined to look into dealing with the thrust at the upper floor level and keep the plan open like you have.

Wedged dovetail tenons are clever joints. Make sure some kid can't come along and pull the wedges. ;) For use in a critical application I'd sure want to know what the potential loads are on that joint and carefully design for it. (What is the design value for horizontal shear in (Eastern White?) pine, something like 65psi?) I'd also want really well seasoned, solid material - not a good place for shake or a check.