Containerable Cruiser

[Pierce Nichols]

I ran across the Far Harbor 39 a while back, and while I don't like the boat ($250k for a boat that looks like a Bolger box seems excessive), I like the concept. You can ship a standard container to just about any sea port in the world for less than $10k, which opens up huge cruising areas not otherwise accessible to someone with a relatively limited budget and amount of time off.

I'm looking for suggestions of designs for a cruising motorsailer that will fit inside a 45' high-cube ISO container. The internal length is 44' 4", and the door opening is 7' 8-1/8" wide by 8′ 5-49/64" high. The boat and all of its rigging must fit in one container, and it should be a relatively loose fit, so that getting the boat in and out of the container is not too big of an operation. The rigging should be as simple as possible so that the minimum amount of time is required to rig the boat for sea when it arrives at the cruising grounds and unrig it when it's time to ship it home. An unstayed rig would be good; combined with a tabernacle would be ideal. I don't like the daggerboard keel of the Far Harbor (seems extremely vulnerable to grounding), and I find the idea of cutting an already narrow cabin in half with a centerboard trunk somewhat counter-productive. Leeboards would be ideal, since they allow a shallow draft for gunkholing. Construction should be simple -- single chine, developed for plywood would be ideal.

Any suggestions?

[Paul Pless]

...I don't like the boat ($250k for a boat that looks like a Bolger box seems excessive)

But you do like chine hulls in developable plywood surfaces, leeboards, and unstayed rigs in tabernacles; which sound an aweful lot like a combination of features that you'd find in a practical Bolger design...;)

I think the plainest fact of the matter is that if you design a boat to fit in a container box its gonna look a lot like a box itself.

[Pierce Nichols]

But you do like chine hulls in developable plywood surfaces, leeboards, and unstayed rigs in tabernacles; which sound an aweful lot like a combination of features that you'd find in a practical Bolger design...;)

Indeed -- I'm a fan of Bolger's; I just find the idea of paying a quarter million bucks for one that lacks many of the most useful features of a Bolger design less than appealing. :)

[Don Maurer]

Karl Stambaugh's Trailer Sailer 24 would fit the bill if it was a hair narrower. I'll bet Karl would re-draw the lines for you to fit your maximum beam requirement.
http://cmdboats.com/trailersailer24.htm?cart_id=e4ecf1a7b0953bfaf81dda 0803f6286f

[Hwyl]

Bob Perry talked about this boat over on Sailing Anarchy, but all the comments above are generally true.
There are a number of other options, depending upon what you're looking for. But the only cruising option as far as I know I the Perry design, the others are all performance driven, including Sailing Anarchy's own "Flying Tiger".

The most intriguing option (and this will send Paul Pless in paroxysm s) is the Walter Greene which was featured in WB 200, a stunning boat, that's really close to the size parameters (42' LOA 8'1" beam).

Another option, which is more practical, would be two containers with a catamaran hull in each.

You are depending on a boatyard in a far flung foreign land to bolt on your keel in the keel boat options.

Muse away. Gareth

[Flying Orca]

Might be worth talking to Tad Roberts (TR) about this, he did some sketches... but you'd be best off getting them from him. ;)

[Pierce Nichols]

Karl Stambaugh's Trailer Sailer 24 would fit the bill if it was a hair narrower. I'll bet Karl would re-draw the lines for you to fit your maximum beam requirement.
http://cmdboats.com/trailersailer24.htm?cart_id=e4ecf1a7b0953bfaf81dda 0803f6286f

Depending on the height of the hull, it might be possible to construct a cradle for that boat to turn it 90 degrees and stick it in the container that way. Seems like a good option.

[Pierce Nichols]

The most intriguing option (and this will send Paul Pless in paroxysm s) is the Walter Greene which was featured in WB 200, a stunning boat, that's really close to the size parameters (42' LOA 8'1" beam).

Sounds interesting -- that's the current issue, isn't it?


Another option, which is more practical, would be two containers with a catamaran hull in each.

You are depending on a boatyard in a far flung foreign land to bolt on your keel in the keel boat options.


That's why I like the idea of a leeboarder more -- I don't have to rely on the destination boatyard to put the boat together. The same objection, btw, applies to a cat -- I'd have to rely on a foreign boatyard to bolt the cat together.

[Hwyl]

With the keel problem, it should be possible to engineer a foolproof system, including tapers in some form.

For the cat' I was thinking, that at least the joints would be visible, and there is a school of thought that the joints should flexible, that might make it easier to connect them yourself.

[outofthenorm]

With a design brief like this, my suggestion would be to contact Mr. Bolger and put his unique genius to work. It would be very cool to see what he'd come up with. I would also suggest talking to Michael Storer - although his 35 ft river cruiser is not a motor sailor, the concept could be a good starting point in a custom design process.
http://www.storerboatplans.com/TC35/TC35.html

- Norm

[Nicholas Scheuer]

My 28-ft Shearwater Yawl (a Bolger design built by Edey & Duff) shares many of the features of the Far Harbor-39, and with her flat bottom, 7.5-ft beam, and short rig, would indeed fit easily inside a shiping container.

In fact, I hope to do exactly that some day, for a year of cruising Europe.

My Shearwater, (sorry, I don't have a web cache of photos to share) is far from a "Bolger Box" in her appearance. While not as gracefull as many cruising designs, she does posses a rather striking pose in any harbor.

I like the suggestion from someone above to contact Phil Bolger. Were you to specify "a good looker" in your dream list of features, I'm confident he would be up to the task.

Moby Nick

[Paul Pless]

Per Phil Bolger's presentation at the WoodenBoat Show, he is backlogged a few years due to his current work for the U.S. Navy and Marines designing landing craft. I'm not sure that he's even accepting new commissions. He was rather apologetic with regards to this.

[kenjamin]

Mr. Bolger may be somewhat backlogged for new designs but he has a ton or two of existing designs that may fit the bill. He is very prompt about answering snail mail so I would suggest you write him and see what he has to say about the subject. I was at Mr. Bolger's presentation at Mystic and yes I saw a little more of his cat than I needed to see but I've written him twice since then and he's always answered within a week or so. Many of his existing designs have rounded hulls and are quite beautiful – especially his Swedish Cruiser.

[py]

One of Iain Oughtred's designs has twin "centreboards". The cases basically form the bunk sides, either side of the cabin sole. A very neat solution to the problem of the divided cabin. Avoids what many consider to be unsightliness-and vulnerability of leeboards. I suppose they have all the disadvantages of bilge keels though.

[Pierce Nichols]

One of Iain Oughtred's designs has twin "centreboards". The cases basically form the bunk sides, either side of the cabin sole. A very neat solution to the problem of the divided cabin. Avoids what many consider to be unsightliness-and vulnerability of leeboards. I suppose they have all the disadvantages of bilge keels though.

There's another reason to dislike centerboards, and that is that they tend to get damaged if you ground the boat (say, on a nice tropical beach :) ). LFH makes a very good argument for leeboards in The Compleat Cruiser based on that (see the description of Tranquilo) and the accommodations issue. I find leeboards to be quite striking when well done, and vulnerability is less of an issue with a component that can be removed and replaced while underway.

ETA: I have a visceral dislike of holes in the hull, especially large ones through the keel.

[skuthorp]

Whitley Cruisers, a long time local boatbuilding family built a containerable narrow boat for a long term series of cruising holidays in the canal systems of Britain and Europe. It was some time ago but I've seen it at a WB show. Can't find a reference to it, I'll try to find my photo at home.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

One of the lengthened Hereshoff Meadowlarks would fit the bill. I'm not sure of the beam, but that is flexible. Strong lead shoe, removable leeboards, shortish gaff masts.
You could just roll it into and out of the container on some pipe, propellors in skegs so it would sit upright.

[keyhavenpotterer]

Iain Oughtred has a design which is very close to your spec. His Haiku design. 30' long, 7'9" beam, she is an updated version of Ralph m Munroe's Egret. Flat bottom perfect for loading into a container on a trolley. Iain could draw leeboards for you. Forward mast in a tabernacle, simply stayed. Mizzen mast unstayed. This avoids major hassle pputting up the rig. And the best bit - she is beautiful. Quite how Iain manages this in a flat bottom sharpie is testament to his wonderful skills.

Not sure where you can see details on the web. Watercraft Magazine covered the design brief in No 38 and then showed the build and sailing test in No 61, under the title "Poetry in Motion". In that same issue there is also a 7 page feature on Iain Oughtred. So well worth getting.

So not only is she lovely, she would be perfect for fitting into a container. Brian.

[jp4sail]

Hi

I don't know if this one fits your needs but this was what first came to my mind after reading your posting. They even have designed a nice mast set up system. Very interesting...Not plywood but strip..And she looks very nice... Their address is

http://riohondoyachts.com/index.html

http://riohondoyachts.com/gallery-images/images/145-MastUp.jpg

JPaes

[Woxbox]

Isn't Bolger's Loose Moose just about what you're looking for? I agree, too, that sharpies fit the bill, but they don't have near the interior space you get with Loose Moose, which is designed to be a liveaboard. Plus, it's intended to be blue-water capable. If I remember right, one has crossed the Atlantic. I don't have the specs handy, but it looks like it would fit into a container, or with small modifications could be made to fit.

http://www.loosemoosefilmworks.com/blogs/loose-moose-crane1.jpg

[Pierce Nichols]

Isn't Bolger's Loose Moose just about what you're looking for? I agree, too, that sharpies fit the bill, but they don't have near the interior space you get with Loose Moose, which is designed to be a liveaboard. Plus, it's intended to be blue-water capable. If I remember right, one has crossed the Atlantic. I don't have the specs handy, but it looks like it would fit into a container, or with small modifications could be made to fit.

http://www.loosemoosefilmworks.com/blogs/loose-moose-crane1.jpg

It's it BWAOM, which I have, so let me see... The length and the beam are good for a standard container (even more flexible than the high-cube 45' originally called for) Not clear how tall the hull is from the descriptions, but it looks like it might fit. I'm not wild about the single bilgeboard on the starboard side; I think she'd look better with leeboards to break up the flat expanse of the side. But it's certainly an excellent option.

[JamesCaird]

Hi All-Just yesterday shipped off James Caird Replica via container-headed for Port Newark (Opposite NYC) thence onward to Falklands via MonteVideo. I was having the same thoughts about shipping boats around: complete shipping costs to Falklands is about $8500. Boat is 24 ft with all the rig inside and sitting on a cradle. About 2 hours work to load, brace ,block, cover and strap down inside.
Now if we could imagine: hop a jet a few months from now and the boat is waiting for next adventure in the Falklands and beyond(?).
I did measure the inside of the container (7'8"wide) with these thoughts in mind.
Further to shipping: LF Herreshoff included lifting points and the design for the hardware attachments for lifting the Marco Polo Schooner onto a ship for easy reaching those remote cruising gateways. At the time he mentioned the Hebrides and the Region of the Beagle Channel and Chilean coast (Hudson Bay, too-brrrr.) Other boats have lifting points built in-Concordias mostly came from Germany as deck cargo, for instance. Anyway-just thinking/Cheers/JC

[JimD]

Loose Moose with Wheelhouse:

http://www.loosemoosefilmworks.com/blogs/anenome-hard.jpg

[katiedobe]

That is an ugly boat! IMHO! Yuck!

[Pierce Nichols]

One of the lengthened Hereshoff Meadowlarks would fit the bill. I'm not sure of the beam, but that is flexible. Strong lead shoe, removable leeboards, shortish gaff masts.
You could just roll it into and out of the container on some pipe, propellors in skegs so it would sit upright.

Sounds like a good possibility... do you have an idea about how Meadowlarks do in blue water? A couple of the cruising areas I have in mind (French Polynesia, Straits of Magellan/Beagle Channel) would benefit greatly from some blue water capability.

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Meadowlark had too much beam for a container.

Moby Nick

[Gary E]

I dont understand you, you have enough money (it's gona take tons ) to spend of a pie in the sky idea like this, spend a bunch more building it...go through the huge costs and hassle of shipping it to far flung parts of the world only to end up with a what I consider a small boat with a really big bill so you can say you sailed your boat where???

This is what CHARTERS are for.... NO muss no fuss, and your dun wid it....

[py]

Jeez Gary, we wuz all having quite a bit of fun there.

[Woxbox]

We wuz. And charters only work by cost if you do a couple of weeks a year. Heck, two weeks charter and you've paid to move your container boat most anyplace in the world, at which point you can hang out there for next to nothing for as long as you like. And when you're done, you still have a boat. Makes sense to me.

[seanz]

This is what CHARTERS are for.... NO muss no fuss, and your dun wid it....

Big meanie. :p

How about Herreshoff style lift points and an open top container?
It might restrict you to less than 40' though............

While we're at it you might have to be careful about where you ship that 45' to internationally speaking........can someone else say if the 45's are a common thing outside Nth America?

[Pierce Nichols]

Big meanie. :p

How about Herreshoff style lift points and an open top container?
It might restrict you to less than 40' though............


There are things called 'flat racks' that are basically a folding frame the size and shape of a container, with all the mounting/hoisting points and not much else. They're used for shipping heavy equipment, and are almost always carried below decks. They ease the size restrictions a few inches, but they're less well protected from the elements (one of the advantages of a containerable boat is the fact that it's easy to protect it from the elements in the off season), and they're significantly more expensive. You can get an old container around here (S. CA) for a few grand, delivered.

While we're at it you might have to be careful about where you ship that 45' to internationally speaking........can someone else say if the 45's are a common thing outside Nth America?

They're an ISO standard, and I have seen them on big container ships. That said, you're right -- they do restrict things somewhat, and a lot of good suggestions will fit into a 40' container.

[P.L.Lenihan]

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8df11b3127cceb429538fa98700000026102BauGzJmyZQ

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8df11b3127cceb429538a28b200000026102BauGzJmyZQ

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8df11b3127cceb429538828b000000026102BauGzJmyZQ

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8df11b3127cceb4295389a98100000026102BauGzJmyZQ

Here a a few more shots of the Bolger AS-39. This one was built near me and shows improvements to the original AS-39 LOOSE MOOSE II posted above.
The top two pictures show the front and rear ends of this boat followed by a shot of the owner in the forward well(with fully balanced mainmast in the lowered postion) and ending with a shot of yours truly steering her through the St.Lawrence Seaway on her way to her"graving dock" while a good buddy rolls a stoney :)
The owners have lived aboard full time now for the past two years and plan on heading out to Labrador this summer,where they will winter over before crossing the Atlantic over to the British Isles and then on to the Continent for some serious canal cruising. Perhaps I should tell them about the notion of just shipping her over in a container......nah.....that wouldn't be any fun for them :)

Peter

[P.L.Lenihan]

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8df11b3127cceb429507768d600000026102BauGzJmyZQ

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8df11b3127cceb4295074e9e500000026102BauGzJmyZQ

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8df11b3127cceb429507568d400000026102BauGzJmyZQ

Here are a few more shots of her out on Lac St.Louis( a slight broadening of the St.Lawrence River as it makes its way around Montreal).
As you can see, a rather calm late fall day....
The mainsail,by the way,is from the LOOSE MOOSE II after that boat was sadly struck by lightening and burnt.Bob Wise,owner of LOOSE MOOSE II kindly sold her to the new owner of this improved AS-39 called L'ANEMONE.

As to that electric canary yellow colour scheme, I believe it is to give maximum visibility for other boats in less then perfect North Atlantic weather conditions expected on their crossing, not to mention the fog in and around the Gulf of St.Lawrence and up around Newfoundland and Labrador :)

Peter

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

With the keel problem, it should be possible to engineer a foolproof system, including tapers in some form.

For the cat' I was thinking, that at least the joints would be visible, and there is a school of thought that the joints should flexible, that might make it easier to connect them yourself.

How about a wharram - with one hull upside down so they both fit?

[seanz]

Thanks for the Bolger pics Mr Lenihan, I find his boats very interesting.


There are things called 'flat racks' that are basically a folding frame the size and shape of a container, with all the mounting/hoisting points and not much else.

There are also 'open toppers' or bulktainers which have the three sides plus doors and a tarpaulin covering the top, from the ground they look like a normal container. I just thought the combination of lift points and an open top were worth thinking about. Remember any amatuer can stuff something through a door but it (usually) takes professionals to operate a crane. Rolling a 40' boat up a leveling plate and through a door might be more challenging than you think. ;)

[P.L.Lenihan]

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8df10b3127cceb42ada0e108a00000025102BauGzJmyZQ

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8df10b3127cceb42ada0591b100000025102BauGzJmyZQ

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8df10b3127cceb42ada0391b700000026102BauGzJmyZQ

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8df10b3127cceb42ada00108400000026102BauGzJmyZQ

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8df10b3127cceb42ada02108600000025102BauGzJmyZQ

And if you need something a wee bit smaller, the Bolger AS-29 :)
This is Mikes' wonderful WALKLURE he is now sailing down around Florida in enjoying his retirement(lucky bugger!!)

Peter

[Nicholas Scheuer]

For me, sailing my own boat is more rewarding than chartering someone else's idea of a "cruiser", having a fixed keel that won't let me get into the shoals, or onto a beach.

If I "container ship" my 28-ft Shearwater Yawl to Europe, it will likely be for a YEAR. The shipping cost is only a moderate consideration for a period like that. Chartering a boat I don't like, or lodging in hotels would cost WAY more.

Moby Nick

[Pierce Nichols]

For me, sailing my own boat is more rewarding than chartering someone else's idea of a "cruiser", having a fixed keel that won't let me get into the shoals, or onto a beach.

If I "container ship" my 28-ft Shearwater Yawl to Europe, it will likely be for a YEAR. The shipping cost is only a moderate consideration for a period like that. Chartering a boat I don't like, or lodging in hotels would cost WAY more.


Also, in many places, charters come with unpleasant restrictions that keep you out of some of the most interesting areas. Containering a boat to somewhere interesting is less expensive than chartering on a per-trip basis if you're going to stay more than a couple of weeks, and you get your boat, set up the way you like it, not a mass-market clorox bottle.

[Pierce Nichols]

There are also 'open toppers' or bulktainers which have the three sides plus doors and a tarpaulin covering the top, from the ground they look like a normal container. I just thought the combination of lift points and an open top were worth thinking about. Remember any amatuer can stuff something through a door but it (usually) takes professionals to operate a crane. Rolling a 40' boat up a leveling plate and through a door might be more challenging than you think. ;)

That's a good point about the bulktainers. A containerable cruiser is probably also light enough to use a big Gradall instead of a crane, and I know how to run one of those. Also, I was thinking of having a dedicated container for the boat, with nice stuff like built-in ramps and a winch for hauling the boat inside and some other labor-saving devices.

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Boats designed for containers, like the Far Harber-39, as well as my Shearwater, feature flat bottoms (neither deadrise nor rocker) that enables one to "push" the hull into the container over a low-friction carpet using a fork lift equipped with stout line lashed between wide-spread fork tines.

In my case, I'd own the carpet, and slip someone a few bucks to keep stored somwhere on the Shipper's premises untill needed for the return shipment.

Moby Nick

[Hwyl]

I think the Far harbor uses inflatable tubes for rolling it in and out.

[Mad Scientist]

There are also 'open toppers' or bulktainers which have the three sides plus doors and a tarpaulin covering the top, from the ground they look like a normal container. I just thought the combination of lift points and an open top were worth thinking about. Remember any amatuer can stuff something through a door but it (usually) takes professionals to operate a crane. Rolling a 40' boat up a leveling plate and through a door might be more challenging than you think. ;)


An 'open top' container - great idea!
Modern container ports have lots of cranes (obviously), and they should be able to lift the boat out of/into the container.
So, I dug out my 1976 Hapag-Lloyd Container Specifications book. The lowest payload for a 40'x8'x8'6" 'open top' was 58,490 lbs.
Here's an idea: Get your very own container, and install whatever sort of bracing/framework needed to prevent the boat from moving. Even the very largest ships 'bounce' in rough weather; you can't be too careful.
And, if you have lots of time, you might be able to sail on the ship with your boat. www.freighterworld.com (http://www.freighterworld.com)

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Anybody know the percentage of containers lost over the side? We keep hearing about the danger of ocean cruisers hitting them at night.

Moby Nick

[Woxbox]

A Philly area group has a Viking boat that they've taken to Europe at least three, maybe four times now. It's on a trailer, and they just drive it onto a car carrier to have it shipped. I don't know what the cost is, or if anyone can arrange this, but it sure is easy for them. (I believe they have connections with the shipper that they use.) But the boat is inside during transit and protected as carefully as the shiny new cars onboard.

[Pierce Nichols]

Anybody know the percentage of containers lost over the side? We keep hearing about the danger of ocean cruisers hitting them at night.


I don't have absolute numbers, but AIUI it's a cheap eventuality to insure against (for the shipper that is), which implies it's unlikely. Also, AIUI, you have some ability to specify where in the ship your container is loaded, subject to how many other containers are going to that destination, etc.

[Pierce Nichols]

A Philly area group has a Viking boat that they've taken to Europe at least three, maybe four times now. It's on a trailer, and they just drive it onto a car carrier to have it shipped. I don't know what the cost is, or if anyone can arrange this, but it sure is easy for them. (I believe they have connections with the shipper that they use.) But the boat is inside during transit and protected as carefully as the shiny new cars onboard.

It's more flexible -- since the maximum beam restriction is more than a foot larger, the number of available boats is much larger. I suspect the height restrictions are also looser. The tradeoff is that there are far fewer places served by the RoRo ships than by container ships. No idea about the price.