Theory, reality and boat building

[J. Dillon]

.
Even in something as simple as a flat bottom canoe, computer generated lines, combined by errors in text, drawings and not actual building it ...things can and do literally go astray.

Just started building this canoe, an on line free plans

http://www.bateau2.com/free/ccanoeUS.PDF

The building instruction show in drawings , text that this boat can be put together with duct tape. In reality it doesn’t work. The tape will not hold the shape. The dimensions are right on in theory and actuality in laying out. The bottom matches the sides perfectly when taped together but the duct tape lets go.:eek: I will have to wire the boat together to facilitate construction . No big deal, it’s in progress. An other error in the text is the dimension of the bottom butt block calling for one piece of 1/4'" X 8" X 14" .plywood In reality it’s 18 " an error not picked up when proof read. I don’t expect any other errors but write here to warn others that duck tape has it’s limitations .:rolleyes:

On the plus side it looks like this design will achive my prime objective of a light easily car toped craft.:D So far it weighs 40 lbs. ( bottom and two sides) I still have to tape it add a gunwale and inwale as well as breast hook fore and aft. That shouldn't get the finished weight over 50 lbs.

JD

[paladin]

I may be wrong but....some of the "free" designs from that web site are/were designs that they acquired the right to, previously sold, and no longer support. I know that some designs that they had agreements with are no longer valid, and for whatever reason the principle in the company is a designer and has designed similar boats/craft that he supports.

[J. Dillon]

Chuck you are probably right. In my case no serious harm done but for others in a more complicated craft , one could be seriously stung.:eek:

JD

[JimD]

JD, I used masking tape on this kayak and wrapped it all the way around so it can't let go.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7cf30b3127cceb0374b95470e00000035100CbOGrVu4cMS

[Woxbox]

Isn't baling wire the next step?

[George Roberts]

J. Dillon ---

A lot of engineering knowledge is required to hold parts in place with duct tape or any other tape.

You plan on using wire. Wire has the same problems as tape. Perhaps to a lesser extent and perhaps with easier adjustment.

[BrianY]

I built the canoe from the Bateau.com free plans and I had no problem using duct tape to hold the sides and bottom together.

My tape was red. What color is yours? Maybe that makes a difference (just kidding).

What kind of plywood are you using? The thing is designed for 1/4" luan (which is what I used). If you used "real" plywood (occume or meranti perhaps), maybe it's not as flexible ??? Just a thought....

As for the butt block - I remember that I noticed that too, but I thought the reason to have it short by two inches is to allow the fiberglass tape and the fillet to lie smoothly along the chine instead of having it have to bump up over the butt block - at least that's what I told myself.

In any case, lots of people have built the canoe, so the plans and building method have been tested. Considering how active the Bateau.com discussion boards are and how responsive Jacques is to builder's comments, one would think that any flaws in the plans would have been exposed and corrected long ago.

Maybe not....

[Battenkiller]

.
The dimensions are right on in theory and actuality in laying out. The bottom matches the sides perfectly when taped together but the duct tape lets go. I don’t expect any other errors but write here to warn others that duck tape has it’s limitations .

Don't know if it will solve your problem, but the Gorilla brand of duct tape is all I use anymore. It is so strong it's hard to get it off the roll. I put a piece over a hole in a fiberglass canoe two years ago and it's still in place.

[Dan McCosh]

I'm calling Red Green.

[Thorne]

Check a theatrical supply house for 'proper' gaffers tape -- lovely stuff!

[J. Dillon]

Red tape, Green tape ,Gorilla tape , Duct tape.:eek: I guess choosing the right one might have made the difference. But getting out of ones mistakes is what makes it "fun". :o Wiring got it all together plus a few temp. scrap bulkheads to help keep it that way until after the taping. Thanks for the input.:D

BTW I did use 1/4" fir marine plywood. The price( 48.00 a sheet) and availability made the choice for me.

Brian Y, now that you have it in use , how does it perform... track well paddles easy , tippy, weight and handling it , did you put on bottom rubbing strakes etc ?

JD

[Raka025]

You forgot packing tape. Doesn't tear at all.

[JimD]

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/72352924.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193875DCB1DD8387ABB8EDA074F75329574 A40A659CEC4C8CB6

[J. Dillon]

What sort of tape should I use on the above 14' canoe /pirogue. I can only see the heavy stuff 9 oz biaxial 4" wide tape for 35 bucks for 20 yds around:confused:. This seems too heavy for such a small craft. What is sufficient ?

JD

[BrianY]

Brian Y, now that you have it in use , how does it perform... track well paddles easy , tippy, weight and handling it , did you put on bottom rubbing strakes etc ?

JD

Well, I have had it out exactly twice in calm waters with only slight breezes for very short trips, so my experience with it is not huge or comprehesive. I can say this: With a double paddle it moves along easily, tracks straight, turns easily, and is uncomfortable to sit in for any significant length of time with no back rest. Consider getting a folding "stadium seat", making a seat yourself or installing a back rest. I can easily hoist it on and off of my car without help. I did not install any rub strakes, external keel, etc. but I think that would be a good idea to minimize bottom wear.

I found it to be pretty tippy and wiggly (responding to hip movements sorta like a kayak does) so I have to be careful not to lean too far to one side or the other. BUT (and this is a significant "BUT"):

After paddling it for a total of about an hour and a half , I've concluded that I'm probably just too darned big for the boat. At 6'5" and 300 lbs, my center of gravity is too high and I'm too heavy for the boat so it is very sensitive to how I lean. The result is that it is too "tippy" for my tastes and I have no confidence in my ability to keep from capsizing should my attention wane. I did increase the freeboard by and inch, so the height of the rail from the water is fine. It's just too unstable with someone my size in it - or it might be that I'm just too inexperienced to be able to handle the boat properly. Either way, I'm not real thrilled with the idea of taking it out again, especially in any sort of wind or chop. (I should say that I am an experienced canoist and have no problems with solo or double paddling in a regular canoe, so I'm not completely a novice at this sort of thing)

I also have a heck of a time getting in and, especially, getting out of it without tipping over, althought that's probably due to my large size rather than any problem inherent in the design.

I'll probably end up giving it to my (shorter and lighter) brother.

I hope your experience is better.

[JimD]

What sort of tape should I use on the above 14' canoe /pirogue. I can only see the heavy stuff 9 oz biaxial 4" wide tape for 35 bucks for 20 yds around:confused:. This seems too heavy for such a small craft. What is sufficient ?

JD

Tape's expensive, eh? I forget what I used on the last kayak. Four or six oz, maybe. Certainly not nine.

[J. Dillon]

Thanks Brian for your reply. It's interesting. I'm a mere 165 lbs in summer rig and top up at 6'2, I shrunk a little with age. ;) So I should be all right. I do canoe so I'm no stranger to being aware of going over if not careful.
As far as boarding and exiting , I plan to straddle the floating boat and lower my butt into it and hang on to the painter as I go in. Once the butt in pull my legs in. Reverse for egress.

I will be making a removable seat with back rest from the scrap ply left over.

Jim D I'm going to make some tape from 7.5 oz glass cloth that I plan for the bottom. I figure two strips on inside and out along the chine ought to do it and maybe a little more for the inside of the bow.

JD

[JimD]

Jim D I'm going to make some tape from 7.5 oz glass cloth that I plan for the bottom. I figure two strips on inside and out along the chine ought to do it and maybe a little more for the inside of the bow.

JD

JD, making tape sounds tricky. Got a plan?

[J. Dillon]

Well the plan is to cut from FG cloth strips 4" wide and get em down before they come unfrazled. Maybe two courses per chine. My work space un heated is about 55 . When the filleting is done lay the strips in place sqewgee out and if all looks right, get the electric heaters going to promote cure.

JD

[Ron Paro]

Hi Jack,

Are you planning to cut the cloth strips at a 45 degree to the weave of the cloth? This is what I did when making some tape for my skiff. I used a sharp cloth-cutting wheel. This worked very well, and the tape lays into the chines better that it would if not bias cut.

Sounds like a fun project! - Ron

[J. Dillon]

Ron , Pardon my ignorance but why is it difficult to lay in the proposed tape in the chine ? It is a long slightly curved . If it is cut parallel to the weave it should lay in OK. Or is a diagonal cut stronger ?

JD

[Ron Paro]

If your chine angles are not too tight, then maybe straight cut would lay in there just as well. It's just that the bias cut cloth conforms to corners and tight curves better. Also, I think that there is supposed to be less fraying of the edge when it is getting wet-out. I don't know, I didn't try it with straight-cut cloth, so I should not have said that the bias was better. Perhaps I just have a bias toward bias. ;)

[J. Dillon]

Maybe one layer straight and the other on the bias. Could be the best of both worlds? ;)

JD

[kengrome]

Bias-cut tape is twice as strong because both warp and weft fibers cross over the joint and hold the panels together. When you use straight-cut tape only one set of fibers crosses the joint, the others run longitudinally and add almost nothing to the strength of the joint.

Plus the reason why bias-cut tape conforms to the joints better is because their fibers bend at a shallower angle where they cross the joint.

[J. Dillon]

Thats a good reason and answer Mr. Kengrome. Thanks . So Ron,where do I get a cloth cutting wheel ?:o

JD

[kulas44]

I am a duct tape aholic. I've used miles of it in my business and I can say, after using about every brand, that Suretape, from Hickory North Carolina, is the BEST. You have to get there better commercial grade, it's what the NASCAR boys use.

[J. Dillon]

That tape and a Swiss army knife you can fix the world.;)

JD

[Ron Paro]

Thats a good reason and answer Mr. Kengrome. Thanks . So Ron,where do I get a cloth cutting wheel ?:o

JD

I got mine from my wife's sewing kit. :D

I have seen these sold in the sewing section of arts & crafts type stores. They probably even have them at Wal*mart.

You just need to make sure that you have a smooth solid surface that you won't mind getting score marks on. I used the top of my workbench, because I need to resurface it anyway.

Ron

[J. Dillon]

Ron , I just got on line our local store chain Jo Ann's frabics . Nothing came up for "cloth cutting wheel". Could it have another name ?

JD

[Ron Paro]

JD, I just looked at Jo Anne's online. They call them "Rotary Cutters".
http://www.joann.com/joann/catalog.jsp?CATID=cat393855

http://63.210.199.180/04/71/4/47140.jpg.fpx?qlt=80&wid=97&cvt=jpeg $12.11

[J. Dillon]

Thanks Ron,:D

JD

[cshire]

Try Raka.com for tape.
They have 4" x 6oz tape for $.85/yd.
This is biaxial tape so fibers run at 45 degree angles to the length for the strength you want.

May want to check the forums at bateau.com. It seems that many of thier designs call for fairly heavy glass cloth and tape. Their claim is that they design true composite structure boats vs. wood boat covered with glass/epoxy (where all the strength is in the wood structure and the glass epoxy is for gluing, water/abrasion resistance).

Bottom line - never a good idea to deviate from designers plans unless you know what you are doing.

[JimD]

I found that when applying long narrow strips of cloth for taping the best way was to first wet the chine, then carefully lay the dry cloth on it and pat it down into place, so that the cloth is stuck in place by the epoxy. Then carefully wet out the cloth.

[Clencher]

Been away for a week so just caught this thread. Going back to the problem of using tape to grip things together, here's another idea taken from a a vintage model yacht refit I did a couple of years ago. I see no reason why it couldn't be scaled up for use on a canoe, unless someone out there knows different.......

Go to your local tyre fitter and ask if they have any bust inner tubes they don't want. Get a selection of different sizes. With a very sharp craft knife cut the tubes into large "rubber bands". You can adjust the size with the angle of cut across the old tube. They will grip, and grip tight. In the pic I'd used some smallish ones, about 12 inch diameter to hold down a new 3/16 teak faced marine ply new deck, tight to the crowned deck beams and shear whilst I installed the screws. Worked a treat. Would the same principle apply to a canoe build to hold all together? Never built a canoe.

These big "rubber bands" have lots of other uses.

http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL370/9115650/16752884/301827396.jpg

[Spokaloo]

I used duct tape...

I used the cheapest possible crappy plywood imaginable ($9 a sheet lauan)...

Redwood gunnels....

This boat has been quite durable, and I have paddled it a chunk behind the house....

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/fighterama2/green_boat.jpg

I used some 6oz fabric cut from an older project, and didnt waste any time fairing it out. It paddles well (6'3, 200# me), sails poorly (my wife holds the umbrella, I steer with a paddle, we make much leeway and little headway), and has stood the test of two years of kids beating the snot out of it.

If you have to throw a stitch in here or there, just use a ziptie. One or two in the right place will hold enough stress to allow the duct tape to handle the rest.

Lastly, enjoy the boat, its a good little pirogue!

E

[J. Dillon]

Going easy on learning about chemical boat building . Thanks to Ron P. I got a wheeled cutter and cut some FG cloth to make biaxil tape.:D Mixed a little epoxy and some wood flour and did the fillets for both stems. Then used the tape to glass in the goop with two layers. It worked well but a bit sloppy. In the same operation fitted and glued in both brest hooks with an opening to later bend in the inwhales P&S. To my surprise I guessed the exact amount to do the above with nothing left over. :cool: Tomorrow if I have time, will do both chines.

Is there any way to thining out mixed epoxy ? :confused:Eventually I like to apply epoxy only to the inside and applly cloth only to the bottom outside. It seems a bit stiff to apply to the inside the way it is. I'm using MAS epoxies.

Spokaloo, That is one nice looking little pirogue . It is amazing you can fit into it with your little one.

Jim D, I did it the way you said.

Clencher , I'm past that stage now but it's worth considering next time.

JD

[Spokaloo]

Its our Godchild, a cop buddy's kid. He loves to go out as long as he gets to assist in the paddling.

As far as thinning, you dont want to thin epoxy. Any changes to the properties will change the reaction, causing it not to cure. If you are using MAS below about 60 degrees F, its going to feel thick. Just set it on the counter with a 250w worklight facing both resin and hardener bottles, about a foot away. This will warm the epoxy parts and make it much more workable.

The Gougeon boys have a great way to apply it to flat surfaces as well. Get a yellow foam roller, one of the ones with the very thin foam on the outside. Place one on the roller (3-4" is convenient), and cut another one in half. Roll out a 3'x3' patch, then grab the cut roller and drag it across the same area. This knocks out the stippling from the roller, and makes a nice uniform, smooth, drip-free surface. Very convenient and fast.

E

[Ron Paro]

My work space un heated is about 55 . When the filleting is done lay the strips in place sqewgee out and if all looks right, get the electric heaters going to promote cure.

JD

JD, I just noticed that you mentioned that you plan to turn on the electric heaters after applying epoxy. If you apply epoxy to 55 deg. wood, then heat the space (and wood), you could get out-gassing which appears as small bubbles in the epoxy. This is due to the air in the wood fiber expanding as it heats up. It is recommended to heat the workspace and more importantly the materials prior to applying the epoxy, and then either maintain a steady or falling temperature during the cure. This will prevent the out-gassing.

As Spokaloo mentioned, pre-heating the epoxy will help to 'thin' it. Another option to heat up the epoxy jugs is to place them in a pot of hot water for a few minutes prior to use.

Can you post some pics? You know that we all love to see progress in any boat building project.

Ron

[J. Dillon]

I'm making progress. New to chemical put together boats and I'm not too happy with the tapeing job. it looks rough and un even. Is two layers of 7.5 oz cloth enough in the inside of the chines ? Besides sanding it smooth I guess I'll have to apply a putty to even it out some.It seems quite strong. Currently working on the inwhales and plan to have 3/4" thick with 1/4" X 3/4" X 4"spacers 4" apart to keep the weight down my prime objective considering strength. Haven't turned it over yet or removed the wires yet.

This is what I got so far.

The image shows the spacers clamped up. Th pirogue looks beamy here but is 31"

JD

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/9119/pirogueclampedkh6.jpg

[Ron Paro]

I'm making progress. New to chemical put together boats and I'm not too happy with the tapeing job. it looks rough and un even. Is two layers of 7.5 oz cloth enough in the inside of the chines ? Besides sanding it smooth I guess I'll have to apply a putty to even it out some.It seems quite strong.
JD


Hi JD, It looks to me like you are on the right track with your chine fillets. The two layers of cloth over the fillets should be plenty strong. If you are planning to paint the interior of the hull, then using filler to smooth out any uneveness should work well. My skiff chines looked very similar to your pirogue's before I sanded and filled (and sanded...). I used the West System brand #410 Microlight Fairing Filler mixed into some epoxy for a smooth, easily sanded, yet durable surface.

http://bp1.blogger.com/_XuaT2XHyCMw/RbbQCRGI4RI/AAAAAAAAAE0/T02ab51aT-Q/s200/IMG_2838.JPG http://bp2.blogger.com/_XuaT2XHyCMw/RoLLiye7ALI/AAAAAAAAAUc/ykjiSAc0d9Y/s200/IMG_3439.JPG

I think that those with more experience than us tend to make smaller, smoother chine fillets that are sufficiently strong, but require much less smoothing and sanding to achieve a nice clean look. Oh well, there's always next time to strive for perfection. :rolleyes: Besides, I think a wise man once said...
'But getting out of ones mistakes is what makes it "fun". ' [JD]

Looking good JD! - Ron

[JimD]

Is two layers of 7.5 oz cloth enough in the inside of the chines

Bordering on overkill - nice boat strong like bull.

[boylesboats]

Looking good JD,
Now you why I can build several in a week...

[boylesboats]

I used duct tape...

I used the cheapest possible crappy plywood imaginable ($9 a sheet lauan)...

Redwood gunnels....

This boat has been quite durable, and I have paddled it a chunk behind the house....

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/fighterama2/green_boat.jpg

I used some 6oz fabric cut from an older project, and didnt waste any time fairing it out. It paddles well (6'3, 200# me), sails poorly (my wife holds the umbrella, I steer with a paddle, we make much leeway and little headway), and has stood the test of two years of kids beating the snot out of it.

If you have to throw a stitch in here or there, just use a ziptie. One or two in the right place will hold enough stress to allow the duct tape to handle the rest.

Lastly, enjoy the boat, its a good little pirogue!

E

Very nice one Spokaloo,
Yes they are about as strong as they are reasonable to build..
Mine been left outdoor, exposed to the weather year 'round, ready when I am..

[J. Dillon]

Making slow progress but getting used to the characteristics of handling epoxy is new. It is much more difficult to saturate than poly.

Committed a few heresy's by using steel wire in the "hold it all together phase" but since I figure it will be encapsulated it shouldn't matter. it will probably out last me.

The good part is that so far it is accomplishing my goal of lightness. 40 lbs. All that remains to add a pair bottom rub strakes 1/2' X 3/4" X 8' and fair the glass on the bottom and an external paint job. Another intended heresy is to use the one coat of the epoxy as a 'varnish" inside and to the rub rails. I figure that the boat will spend 90% of its time inverted and in the shade so UV will only be a problem when in use ...maybe up some shady creeks. I figure if it gives any problems I can always sand and paint the bottom.

I might give it sea trials before adding the bottom strakes other than scuffing the bottom it might be easier to turn the boat without them.

I did add a epoxy layer of 7.5 oz cloth to the bottom, besides the external chines.

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/6366/piroguebowdr2.jpg

A view of the end clamped up for gluing rub rail

JD

[Spokaloo]

JD, just experience talking here.

I have a canoe that I did exactly what you propose with the epoxy. My boat turned yellow after a whopping 5 days in the sun. That won't be much more than 2 months of your stated use. Even extremely cheap big box house store varnish will give you easy to apply, long lasting protection. Its worth an extra 2 hours of labor.

E

[Thorne]

I find that CPES makes a great base for varnish, much better than epoxy and cheaper, too! Cover epoxy or CPES with something that has good UV protection or the epoxy will turn yellow, white, and then peel off....don't ask me how I know this.

;0 )

[J. Dillon]

Decided to listen to the voices of experience and will paint the inside and rub rails. Thanks Spokaloo and Thorne.:)

Now my problem is to find a paint that looks like varnish.:confused:

I want this pirogue to be a low maintenance craft and find keeping up varnish labor intensive to say the least.:eek: My sprit rigged skiff "Carrianne" taught me that.

JD

[boylesboats]

Making slow progress but getting used to the characteristics of handling epoxy is new. It is much more difficult to saturate than poly.

Committed a few heresy's by using steel wire in the "hold it all together phase" but since I figure it will be encapsulated it shouldn't matter. it will probably out last me.

The good part is that so far it is accomplishing my goal of lightness. 40 lbs. All that remains to add a pair bottom rub strakes 1/2' X 3/4" X 8' and fair the glass on the bottom and an external paint job. Another intended heresy is to use the one coat of the epoxy as a 'varnish" inside and to the rub rails. I figure that the boat will spend 90% of its time inverted and in the shade so UV will only be a problem when in use ...maybe up some shady creeks. I figure if it gives any problems I can always sand and paint the bottom.

I might give it sea trials before adding the bottom strakes other than scuffing the bottom it might be easier to turn the boat without them.

I did add a epoxy layer of 7.5 oz cloth to the bottom, besides the external chines.

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/6366/piroguebowdr2.jpg

A view of the end clamped up for gluing rub rail

JD

Hi JD..
Your breast hook looks great..:D Almost like mine...
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p182/boylesboats/PreparingforBeasthook.jpg

Far as varnishing over epoxy isn't fun at all.. I am having a issue of Helmsman Spar Urethane peelings away from epoxy... I sanded and clean the epoxy, but the issue is that I took chances... Oil based varnish products do not adhere to epoxy well... I learn from that..
If you still want brightworks, where is water-based marine clear coat with UV blocker made in it.... That should work.. I haven't tries it yet.. that is "SystemThree WR-LPU" and it's available in clear gloss as well..

[Spokaloo]

Ive used the Epiphanes Rapidclear semi-gloss. Its really easy, doesn't seem to craze or do wierd things too readily, and for a pig like me, it slobs on fairly fast. Otherwise, that pirogue you see above had RedDevil home store ghetto varnish for exterior doors. Good enough!


E

[DDan]

A few years ago I used a commonly available spar varnish - good chance it was Helmsman - over System 3 epoxy on a Pygmy kayak kit. I was in a hurry. I didn't fully understand amine blush: I sanded, but didn't wash with water. Anyway, varnish never cured. I had to remove it all with acetone. Since then - I've had very good luck with Z-spar Captains varnish. I've recoated only once in something like 14 years. Boat spends maybe 3 weeks a year in the direct sun. Good durablity and no adhesion problems. Of course, there are many, many other varnishes that will work as well.

[J. Dillon]

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/2333/pirogueinsideonedgenk7.jpg

She's gaining weight now 43 lbs and I still have to paint her (outside) and varnish the inside. I can put her on my hip and dance.:D Probable finish out a a dainty 45 lbs.

Now what varnish ( inexpensive) is compatable with sanded epoxy and has uv protection ?

JD

[boylesboats]

Gosh, it's looking great JD.....

As for varnish or spar urethane, there several inexpensive kinds at Lowe's or Home Depot you may check into.. Minwax's Helmsman Spar Urethane might make a first choice http://www.minwax.com/products/protective/helmsman.cfm
It is clear, but it have some lovely amber tint to it..

[J. Dillon]

Larry , Bought a qt of that min wax spar varnish you mentioned above.:) It will be interesting to see how it works out on a boat that will spend most of it's time inverted. Pretty good I suspect. Did you put bottom skids on any of the pirogues you built ? What effect did they have in regard to turning the vessel as well as tracking ?

Right now I'm fairing out all the bumps and hollows on the topsides with west 410. It seems to cure slowly.:confused:

JD

[boylesboats]

Larry , Bought a qt of that min wax spar varnish you mentioned above.:) It will be interesting to see how it works out on a boat that will spend most of it's time inverted. Pretty good I suspect. Did you put bottom skids on any of the pirogues you built ? What effect did they have in regard to turning the vessel as well as tracking ?

Right now I'm fairing out all the bumps and hollows on the topsides with west 410. It seems to cure slowly.:confused:

JD

JD,
Yes that stuff (minwax) is durable once its bonded onto epoxy.. I like how it aged to nice amber tint in the first year.. Remember now I didn't storage it in any shelter, it sat outside inverted all year 'round.. I used it a lot during warm weather months, a few times going sledding during winter.. I got to admit, that latex enamel paint I used, is one tough paint, still holding on and no scratch is deep enough to concern me.. Trying to prove myself, that latex enamel is just as good any marine paint on a cheap boat..
Only skid protection that I have on mine is a small keel strip about 3/4" x 1" beveled 10 degrees, right down the middle.. Then glassed the entire outside bottom...
On inside I use clear pine 1 X 2's strip for keelson (should of use it on a picture frame instead).. As seen here in these photos..
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p182/boylesboats/Preparingforbottom.jpg
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p182/boylesboats/DCP_0009.jpg
I never notice any tracking or maneuver problems, except for darn thing is longer than I needed, in tight places among those submerged trees... 2" rocker in the bottom helped...
But, I am glad that I choose the length, because I brings along a buddy, and fishing gear.. I have over 450 lbs combined in that:eek:, and still have plenty freeboard yet.. Myself, I weigh 200lbs, drawing only 1-1/2" of water.. Not bad..

[P.L.Lenihan]

Committed a few heresy's by using steel wire in the "hold it all together phase" but since I figure it will be encapsulated it shouldn't matter. it will probably out last me.
JD

Mr.Dillon,
Not sure if I would call it "hersey" or "ooops" as the wires to hold things together are intended to be pulled out once the epoxy has kicked.If you wait several days,the wires may become very difficult to pull out.That is why copper wire is usually recommended for not only is it soft and easily twisted together but it is also an excellent conductor of heat which is the remedy if one leaves the wires in too long...:)

Take your time with the finish,especially the sanding phase, as all that prep work will pay off in Spades when you apply your final layers of paint/varnish. People,yourself included, will be amazed on how fantastic your slick new boat will look :)

Good Luck!

Peter

[J. Dillon]

Almost ready for sea trails. Right now the snow is too deep. I'm working on a back rest shown in the image. I've made a curved laminated (10 pieces of 1/16 X3/4" pine. back rest. I'll put an ordinary boat cushion against it or maybe one of those stadium seats.

The fore foot both ends has a stainless steel piece to take the wear and tear of launching and groudings on beaches etc.

Larry yes the min wax helmsman varnish does achive a nice deep luster after 4 coats. Time will tell just how well it stands up, as well as the Behr ultra paint I used on the topsides.

The finished weight tops off at 45 lbs. my how those ounces build up.

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1158/piroguepaintedsmallyp0.jpg

Still have the masking tape on. The start of the curved back rest

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/2779/piroguepaintedinvertedev3.jpg

The bottom with keel skid

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3921/piroguepaintedskiddetaicb2.jpg

View of the S.Steel fore foot protector one aft as well

JD

[boylesboats]

Very nice JD...
Slotted rails are a plus, as it can provide tie-down points....
I like your laminated back rest idea, as it will be helpful on long paddling trips..
One of these have been used http://www.woodenboatstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=840%2D022 in canoes and kayaks.. Some guys would hook the straps to each side rail so seat back stays in place... Just an idea...

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

.
Even in something as simple as a flat bottom canoe, computer generated lines, combined by errors in text, drawings and not actual building it ...things can and do literally go astray.

Just started building this canoe, an on line free plans

http://www.bateau2.com/free/ccanoeUS.PDF

The building instruction show in drawings , text that this boat can be put together with duct tape. In reality it doesn’t work. The tape will not hold the shape. The dimensions are right on in theory and actuality in laying out. The bottom matches the sides perfectly when taped together but the duct tape lets go.:eek: I will have to wire the boat together to facilitate construction . No big deal, it’s in progress. An other error in the text is the dimension of the bottom butt block calling for one piece of 1/4'" X 8" X 14" .plywood In reality it’s 18 " an error not picked up when proof read. I don’t expect any other errors but write here to warn others that duck tape has it’s limitations .:rolleyes:

On the plus side it looks like this design will achive my prime objective of a light easily car toped craft.:D So far it weighs 40 lbs. ( bottom and two sides) I still have to tape it add a gunwale and inwale as well as breast hook fore and aft. That shouldn't get the finished weight over 50 lbs.

JD
I built the Cheap Canoe and am very fond of it.
But when I built it I tried the Duct Tape Trick and it failed me too. I even made a comment to that effect on the Bateau Forum but Jacques Mertens insisted it works. The only thing I can figure is that Mertens got some industrial quality tape which is much stickier than what I got from the bigbox store.
Wire is the way to go. I built Mertens' D4 pram and had one hell of a time pulling those stubby hull planks up to the front transom. I started with lengths of wire about 2' long and kept shortening them up over about 3 days.
Here's my Cheapie;
http://209.190.4.227/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=333
It weighs 45 lb.

[J. Dillon]

Well folks that have been following this thread , splash day is tomorrow.:D Johanna is going to do the traditional christening with champanne and the craft name is to be S:)sse.

I might have to break the ice and snow still around here but the temp. is supposed to be over 45o F. A short sea trial will follow in hip deep water.

Thanks for those images Chuck but I gotta ask, how tippy does she feel sitting that high up ? I'm gonna use the seat Larry showed above. It will put me a good deal lower that the way you sit.

JD

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Well folks that have been following this thread , splash day is tomorrow.:D Johanna is going to do the traditional christening with champanne and the craft name is to be S:)sse.

I might have to break the ice and snow still around here but the temp. is supposed to be over 45o F. A short sea trial will follow in hip deep water.

Thanks for those images Chuck but I gotta ask, how tippy does she feel sitting that high up ? I'm gonna use the seat Larry showed above. It will put me a good deal lower that the way you sit.

JD

If I was sitting it would be extremely tippy but, I'm not. I'm kneeling with my butt on a tuffet made from an inverted plastic waste basket and some padding. Enough of my weight is applied to the bottom that the boat is extemely stabile. And the kneeling position allows me to shift my weight whenever things start going to hell. The only drawback is I'm old enought that kneeling for an hour or more and it takes me about 5 minutes to straighten up and a little longer to be able to walk.
One time I pulled into a tiny side creek to take a break. I sat on the yoke and tried to peel an orange. It was like being on a tightrope. CG really makes a difference in a Cheapie.

[Syed]

Wire is the way to go. I built Mertens' D4 pram and had one hell of a time pulling those stubby hull planks up to the front transom. I started with lengths of wire about 2' long and kept shortening them up over about 3 days.
Here's my Cheapie;
http://209.190.4.227/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=333
It weighs 45 lb.

Cuyahoga Chuk,
I had similar problem on same design. BTW what is the weight of your D4, mine is 100 lb.+.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Cuyahoga Chuk,
I had similar problem on same design. BTW what is the weight of your D4, mine is 100 lb.+.

Mine was about 65 lb. when I first finished it but it may have gained 2-3 lb. from the addition of additional trim pieces and the coats of varnish.
I weighed all the plywood pieces even before I started to assemble it. I thought I could hit 60 lb. but the trim and the epoxy coating added more than I expected.
I can just get it up onto the roofrack of my car unaided which is about 1.6 meters high.

[Syed]

Thanks!

[J. Dillon]

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/9665/piroguelaunched222fb6.jpg

Splash day today and S:)sse went over without a protest. :DJohanna poured the necessary ablutions on the bow.( S:)sse is a bit sensitive to broken bottles.)

About the short sea trials, she seemed a bit squirrelly but I guess I'll have to adjust to a double paddle. It couldn't be the boat .;)

JD

[Stiletto]

Good on ya! all you need now is an outrigger and a sail!;)


Those vapour trails in the sky always get me thinking of distant places in the South Pacific.

[boylesboats]

Wonderful JD.:D....

You launched her.... Yaaaayyy... Look great out on the water..

When you mentioned "she a bit squirrelly" do you mean as in tracking?

Hint: a small skeg may be a answer for solo paddler. Being long and slender, wind will like to whip her round or go off-course. I have that problems in both canoes and pirogues.. I end up adding a small bag of sand (about 20 pounds) up front to counter-act my weight, its really help the tracking better going across the windy lake..

[Canoez]

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/9665/piroguelaunched222fb6.jpg

Splash day today and S:)sse went over without a protest. :DJohanna poured the necessary ablutions on the bow.( S:)sse is a bit sensitive to broken bottles.)

About the short sea trials, she seemed a bit squirrelly but I guess I'll have to adjust to a double paddle. It couldn't be the boat .

JD

:eek: That's not a PLASTIC paddle, is it??? :) (I see another project!)

Nice job! Looks good.

[J. Dillon]

One of the things I like best about boats especially one you built your self is the opportunity to be creative on how you're gonna improve it.

I'm still doing that on Carrianne my 18" sprit rigged sharpie. She never looks the same one season to the next.

Now with another craft to play around with new ways to tweek it are buzzing in my mind and a skeg is one. But first will try to refine my paddling technique which leaves much to be desired.

Yes Larry it seems to giggle around a bit and I have to work at keeping it going straight. Maybe a six pack fwd will help.;)

About the Plastic double paddle; I got it as a prize a couple of years a go at the conclusion of a camping kayak trip on lake Powell. I'm told there worth 200 bucks and they sure are light. Will a Greenland paddle be any better ?:confused:

Right now I'm figuring a clamp on paired wheels assembly to fit to the stern of the pirogue to enable better loading and transportation to the water from the truck.

I'll post images on it soon.

JD

[boylesboats]

Right now I'm figuring a clamp on paired wheels assembly to fit to the stern of the pirogue to enable better loading and transportation to the water from the truck.

I'll post images on it soon.

JD

Now ya talking...:D
I made a dolly for mine.. where I just load 'er up with my gears, fishing poles, tackle, bait, lunch and drink. and wheeled her down to the shore all in one trip like a wheel barrow.. take off the dolly and place it inside.. Enjoy my peace...

But there is many configurations to go about this..
Dolly that I made was bit too heavy.. Made it from steel folding chair frame, 5/8" steel axle, a pair 4.80 X 6" wheelbarrow tires and wheels, wrap pool noodles over the frame for padding...

[Ron Paro]

Congratulations on your launch JD! Your pirogue looks great on the water. I don't know if it is perspective, but the paddle shaft looks to be a little on the short side for that boat. A longer paddle would allow a lower angle to the water, which tends to be a little easier on the arms and shoulders (in my non-professional opinion).

Here's a link to a page with paddle and oar size recommendations:
http://www.nrsweb.com/kayaks/paddle_sizing_guide.asp

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I may be wrong but....some of the "free" designs from that web site are/were designs that they acquired the right to, previously sold, and no longer support. I know that some designs that they had agreements with are no longer valid, and for whatever reason the principle in the company is a designer and has designed similar boats/craft that he supports.


Yes, you are wrong. Jacques Mertens of Bateau.com said on his Builders Forum that he drew the plans for the "Cheap Canoe" (the proper name of the boat in question) for his daughter who had to do a "show and tell" about what her daddy did for a living. A while back he said the plans had been downloaded more than 500,000 times. I just took mine down a local scenic river. The water level was near minimum and I hit bottom and a number of boulders on about a dozen rapids. The bottom was, fortunately, covered with 6 oz. glass. 6 or 7 years years of abuse had the unglassed bottom rather ratty.
Here's mine in the sea caves near Bayfield WI.
http://209.190.4.227/gallery/displayimage.php?album=333&pos=4