Anchor selection

[Gerald]

I am getting ready to buy the primary anchor for my 32' 7 ton sail boat. I am pretty sure that I want a CQR. No matter what anchor I select I will be using all chain. A vendor here lists a 7,9,12,15 kilo CQR. The 7 states for boats up to 6 meters but the other three state for boats up too 11 meters. Now wait a minute!! None of the sites that I have found mention the weight of the boat just the length. What gives?
Thanks
Gerald Niffenegger

[imported_Conrad]

Weight isn't the issue, surface area is, since that is what determines the amount of drag or loading the hull and your anchor have to contend with, whether from wind or current. Length is the best/easiest way to arrive at a rough estimate of surface area.

My experience has been to always buy a "bit larger" anchor, especially with chain since weight really isn't an issue in terms of handling ease- you'll have a windlass. But the larger anchor provides greater safety ratios and peace of mind for a minimal additional one time cost. And don't forget that although CQRs are excellent, a danforth will do better in certain conditions, and makes a great spare/back-up!

[Gerald]

When I bought the boat there was no anchor. I offered one of the guys at the marina $7 if he could find the anchor. He went out with a hook and returned, in a few moments, with a big ass danforth with 50' pc. of rope attached. Don't really think it was the anchor from my boat but he earned a days wages and I have a big ass danforth. My boat has a receiver for chain and a CQR. However, there is no windless. As a matter of fact they were hauling anchor with no roller. Since they were getting by with the current setup for the past 35 years ....... I will add a roller and give it a try. My back might force me to buy a windless?
By doing a search I found an article reprinted from Powerboat magazine. They ran a test of around 18 different anchors.
Sooo...... based on what you have told me I will go buy the 15 kilo CQR and hope that I can pull it out of the mud without a windless.
Thank you for your explanation. I now see the logic.
Gerald Niffenegger

[Ian McColgin]

Definatly the 15K.

But do you really want an all chain rode? A chain leader that's about a boat length will do right nicely in most areas.

I have both, which is nicest of course, but if I had only one, it would not be all chain. Not enough versitility.

In deep water the weight of the chain can make 'effective scope' in the cantery. For example, I've rarely had to veer much more than 100' of chain if anchoring in 40' of water, but in shallow water the chain just lays on the bottom and does not give very much spring. And the shere weight of chain in deep water is a huge pain, even with a windless.

I actually haul in my all chain by hand quite often - far faster than the windlass - especially if powering away from the anchor. Because the windlass is there, I can use it as a chain snubber. I just haul the chain in as the boat moves ahead. Dropping it down its hole requires holding it above and behind the gypsey, but then when the anchor is straight up and down, I can drop the chain on the gypsey fingers free and let the boat's momentum break it out.

If you don't have a windlass, this can be more of a challenge. You might install a chain snubber on the deck abaft where the anchor shaft will lie when it's housed, but this will make it harder to stand comfortably using your legs rather than back.

A fibre rode, on the other hand, is very easy to bring aboard and you can quick snub around a sampson post when the anchor's up and down.

When breaking out under sail or power with the fibre rode down, I haul in my slack running back along the side decks so that all the rode is aboard in nice long flakes. I'll then stay put if I must manoever a bit before heaving-to to really stow it.

The chain is, of course, self-storing, but easy use of that really requires a windlass even if you mostly haul in by hand.

Don't loose the danforth. It may be just the thing is soup. It also will work well with another dodge - attach it with maybe 2 fathoms of chain to the hole in the CQR's crown for a series anchor. It will not budge, blow as ever it might.

Something else may break, but if you can get both CQR and danforth to set in series, they will be there still when dawn shows it's murkey hope.

G'luck

[Gerald]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid67/p192b39622bc939a02dd883a19c16ac81/fbc61b90.jpg

I forgot to post the site that did the tests:

http://www.noteco.com/bulwagga/multimedia/powerboat_pdf_Jan_01.pdf

My boat already has what looks to be a mile of chain. The chain self feeds down the 1 1/2" tube slick as can be. Rope is not impossible to feed down the tube but it is real tough. Since I already have the chain I am not out anything to give it a try. I plan to set up the danforth with chain and rope rode. Figure to use it for deep water because as you have stated the chain will probably be darn heavy in 40' of water. Don't know how often I will anchor in more than 15' but probably not often???
Must say that I had not thought of anchors in series. Great idea!
Thank you
Gerald Niffenegger

[Scott Rosen]

Ian's comments are right on the money. All chain is not usually the best set up. It has no stretch to it, so in a strong blow the strain on both boat and anchor are severe. Relying on the catenary for scope is silly. It gives you a false sense of security. When it really counts--in big blow--when you really need the extra scope, the chain will be pulled taught with almost no catenary.

On the other hand, nylon is light, strong, elastic and relatively inexpesive.

If you want the ability to anchor on short scope in calm conditions, then consider 50 to 75 feet of chain followed by a couple of hundred feet of nylon for increasing scope in a blow.

[martin schulz]

Hmm - I wonder why you guys are always so much in favour of that "modern" stuff.
I use one of those (corresponding to my tatoo ;) ) and it works really good, especially on weedy grounds.

http://holidays-in-greece.com/cyclades/cyc/anchor.jpg

I once had a horrible night with a continiously slipping CQR anchor on such ground.

[Ian McColgin]

I see all too many cruising boats with anchor gear that's not laid out for easy and frequent use. This is one of the more important parts of your boat. You want a system that your partner(s) can use as well. Not just for brawney men. So here are some thoughts.

Is that the chain pipe right up just abaft the roller?

You really will hurt your back and it's not a good place to stow the chain.

I can't quite tell from the pic but it looks like those things on either side of the stem are small rollers or maybe odd chocks. They look like the lead straight forward very well but I wonder at how much chafe they might cause on a veering strain.

The big roller appears to suffer the common defect of not having the flanges high enough. Some rolly night, the anchor rode will hop right out of there.

If it has a keeper or can be retro fitted with such, that would be well. The unit looks too low for the keeper to be a simple pin, but an inverted U shaped bale could do. I'd use flat head bolts countersunk in the flang so that the inside surfaces remain smooth. The bale will help keep the anchor in place on the roller when sailing.

Moving on to chain lead. Much depends on what's under the foredeck. If you can bring the chain lead back maybe 6' this would be nice. I imagine that the boat has a V berth forward with some kind of little bulkhead seperating if from a sort of micro rope locker which is where the chain is now.

Chain likes to pile up broader at the bottom, narrower at the top. Dropping it down in the bow is just backwards and you might not have any plank protection. It's likely you need to rethink the chain stowage anyway - worth doing right.

You may be able to find a place towards the aft end of the V birth that will work. Just a nice 2" or so diameter pipe running straight down will get the chain down where it can self-stack in a locker built under the berth. If it's wide at the base and tapers as it rises, all will be well.

Other options abound and if you can't find anyone with experience stowing and using chain, flash me and we'll palaver.

Back up on deck.

Chain can be a chore to lift up cleanly. Get one of those chain scrubbers that the catalogs have. You need some real weight on it and a line to the pulpit so it stays about a foot under water, but it will nicely clean the chain and keep bottom muck reek out of the boat.

Assuming that you can have the chain pipe back from the bow, you can now think about dragging it up.

Best still is a nice windlass. Something like the Simpson Laurecny 555 is about the right size. Mount it so the hole leads straight to the chain pipe. It need not be directly on center on the deck. You want a perfectly straight run from gypsey to roller so assuming the windlass is a tad to starboard, it will toe in a bit as well. This is good as it means the capstan side (to port) will lead well over the bow chocks as well.

You will need to clutter your deck with a sacrificial wood trough the chain can lie in so it won't ruin the teak. If no windlass, you could mount a chain stopper at the aft end of that, just at the top of the chain hole.

I don't really like this idea and it will be hard to make work well. The chain stopper bit might not work at all.

You want the chain pipe to come up about 2" above the deck. Have a slot cut in the after side so you can lay a link of the chain in that when the chain is not running. This is storage only - not a belay point. You can now have a cap (also slotted to give room for that chin link) that fits over the pipe. Good to have a keeper line so you don't loose it. Now you can keep rain or water that comes over the bow pretty much out of the chain locker.

To handle the chain, you stand legs on either side of the pipe and hold the chain from verticle over the pipe. It's easy to hand over hand veer chain out and a good stance for when you're hauling in.

So long as you use the boat's weight for breaking out the anchor, you're unlikely to be lifting more than 100# if you've a bit of rode out in deepish water. More usual weights would be under 75# with anchor and chain at the dangle, free of the bottom. While hauling in, before the anchor is broken out, it's only the weight of the chain in the water. I'm usually hauling about 30# if I anchored in 15'. If you're not comfortable with this level of effort cool. Otherwise, get the windlass.

Seems to me the chainstopper will keep the rode from dropping nicely down it's hole. There are a lot of chainstopper designs so I won't detail those here.

You could have a chain stopper forward a ways, maybe integrated into the back end of the roller. If you go that route, you will absolutely need some kind of heavey lever housed up there on the toe rail so that you can pry the stopper loose even under extreme load.

All for now

G'luck

[Gerald]

I didn't understand how the front roller and tube worked so I had ask several questions on a previous thread. Some of the same stuff we are going over now. There are pictures of the tube etc. under the heading anchor storage. http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=007516&p=
Gerald Niffenegger

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Gerald, I am a bit puzzled by the weights of the CQR anchors that you list.

The CQR as made my Simpson Lawrence, with the drop forged shank and the patent number on the side, comes in the following weights:

15 lbs*
20 lbs*
25 lbs
35 lbs
45 lbs
60 lbs
75 lbs

(*Note; Eric Hiscock says somewhere that these small sizes are unreliable as they may lack weight to set. However, I have a 10 lbs one (a size no longer made) in my launch and it has not failed to set so far.)

I would think that your boat should carry the 35lbs CQR.

Be wary of the "copies" - some of them are not very good, and where you are sailing, as I understand it, you need confidence in your anchor gear!

[Ian McColgin]

Ah, that helps.

You have some decisions but things can be done incrementally.

The rig does not look at all friendly to fibre rodes.

It will take a lot to make this arrangement really suitable. Everything I suggest will be doable by common tools and supplies but you may want to just go wholly fresh on that stem fitting.

One puzzel - is there a head stay on this boat and where does it land?

Another - what's that shackle for? (Hope not the headstay but if it is, I have a thought.)

Lastly, if the headstay does come to this interesting fitting, what are the other fastenings, not apparant in the pic, like?

You do have my curiosity up and I hope my remarks turn out to be on point.

The port and starboard rod "chocks" are a great way to wear out lines since they've not adequate radius to be nice. They may have been put on to use in mooring at a dock where there's tide or some other reason the lines would lead up - maybe canal work. If you must put lines through there, have really stout chafe gear.

With an extreme bend, such as these chocks can impose, I have seen chafe occur inside the chafe grear. This is hard to really fix.

If you or someone you know has access to a lathe, you might try making rollers for the verticle parts of these chocks. Shaped sorta like )( -- imagine a line at top and bottom. You'd cut the stock a bit longer than the finished piece and cut it lengthwise and then bandclamp it together for turning and finish with a hole down the center to accept the rod. Put it on with a full length service/siezing and protect against chafe with something replacable - either rubbery paint or nicely fitted leather or whatever.

The point about how bumpy chain is is well taken. You can drag it up over that apparantly non-rotating round thing but something notched to recieve the chain, especially if made of hard rubber so it's quiet, would be more pleasant.

Sort of cutting it out and replacing it with something on an axel, I don't know what to say. The forward set of holes may have been meant to recieve the bolt/axel for just such a roller. That puts it rather far out. I'd simply drill new holes as far back as keeps your roller from bumping into that solid thing and lets the chain lead back without too firm a contact with that fixed round thing.

I'd use the outer holes to mount an inverted U as a keeper bale. Make it only large enough that the anchor shackle and shaft can get up and the anchor will lie nicely when pulled back and housed. The top of the inverted U will probably be only a bit above the flange.

You might not be able to countersink flat heads in there to any meaningful degree. So long as you're using chain, I think you can round off the bolt heads to a kind of gentle (= and just hang on to the excess thread as you put the nuts on the outside. Probably better have the nuts and bolts drilled so you can put a cotter pin in. Cut the excess thread off after and hope you don't need to disassemble.

That funky add-on roller to port could be useful if you can soften the edges of the flanges. Get a friend to bend some rod to fit around the edge and weld it on. That will take care of all the bumpiness as well.

The chaim pipe shows very clearly in the other post's photo. It's in an impossible place if you want to anchor and have a working back. It would make more sense if it faced aft, not forward but even so . . .

That pipe was really designed to mate with the gypsey at the bottom of a verticlly mounted (same orientation as a sheet winch) capstan. If you purchase such (and still mount the thing aft of the sampson post, at least) the chain comes around the gypsey and the chin pipe is positioned facing aft such that the chain stripper on the gypsey just about touches the side of that hole. It'll self stow nicely then.

If the chain has some weight and a bit of distance to go under the deck, you may be able to hand-over-hand the chain in and the weight will carry it past the bump and turn represented by the pipe's verticle hole. Again, it really needs to get aft a good ways both so you can stand and work without hurting yourself and so the chain has a nice long travel to it's bin, thus giving it the weight to get down that hole.

If this thing doubles as the jib stay chainplate, I suppose you could land the fork of a turnbuckle at the forward of those two holes in the center line flange above that fixed round thing and put a shackle for the tack in the aft hole or use a longer narrower D shackle where the shackle is lieing now, if the upper holes are too close together.

We wait with bated breath.

G'luck

[Gerald]

This is the site were the anchors are listed:

https://ssl2.infolink.com.br/marinedepot.com.br/varejo/itens.asp?grupo=182

It lists the CQR at 15 kilos. About 33 pounds. Then who really knows maybe it is 35 pounds? Not much information on that page about the product. Not a bad price compared to what the prices are in the states. The Real is about 3 - 1 so divide the price by 3 to find the price in dollars.
The front stay mounts in the hole next to the D ring that you ask about. The plate is dead center of the boat.
I added the port and starboard chocks. It seemed like a good place to run a line when and if I use the dock to take on water and fuel. The new wood cap that the chocks are mounted to had been almost worn thru, in 35 years of use, in that area due to someone running a line over the wood cap to tie off.
I have a MIG welder, and machines so no problem making parts.
As of now I would like to do the following:
Make sure the 15 kilo anchor is the correct one too buy ...... should it be bigger?
Machine or buy a roller and mount it in the holes provided.
Use the chain that I have.
Leave all the other items in place such as receiver tube etc.
Mount a clew somewhere???? I was thinking about mounting it to a rope that ran over the small wheel on port side????
Try the thing out and report back for modification recommendations.
I am putting a certain amount of trust in Campos. I read somewhere that his yard manufactured 450 - 500 boats and over a period of many years. Guess that is why I would like to figure out, with your help, what he had in mind and give the thing a try.
Thank you
Gerald Niffenegger

[Gerald]

####Lastly, if the headstay does come to this interesting fitting, what are the other fastenings, not apparent in the pic, like?####

You kind of stumped me here? I am not sure what other fastenings you mean?
Gerald

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Gerald, that does not look like a genuine CQR to me, from the thumbnail photo, and the price is suspiciously low. Try and get a look at one before buying.

The real thing has "Made in Scotland" on one side of the shank, "Patent no ......" on the other and the words "CQR...lbs" on the head. The shank is drop forged, and is "I" shaped, not square, in section.

[Gerald]

I blew the small picture up with Photoshop and it looks like the shank is drop forged or cast steel? At least looks like it is not a pc. or concrete re-bar. The tests stated a holding strength of +- 700 pounds. Forged or cast should more than hold that. The price seems about right to me. If the item is not imported the price here, at this time, is about 30% of the price up north. Will try to get a look at it before I buy.
So .... the good ones are paying patent rights to the firm in Scotland?
Thank you
Gerald Niffenegger

[Ian McColgin]

Gerald,

I share ACB's suspicion. I don't read the language but the three brand names listed - danforth, bruce and cqr - have a word that looks like 'type' in english. These three brand name anchors are very precisely dimensioned and near duplicates really don't work. If it does not say CQR on it, give it a pass.

The 35# CQR will work for your boat but you'll sleep more easily if you can get a 45#. Rule of thumb - not the lightest anchor that will work, but the heaviest anchor you can handle.

For any anchor, you want forged, not cast.

In the size you're looking at, I should think 3/8" chain adequate but look around. There are standard tables matching vessel and anchor and chain sizes. There are also lots of different types of chain, BBB, proof, high test, etc.

I was curioius about how deeply, so to speak, that sterm fitting is set. Some, for example, have a kind of plate/tang running down the forward edge a ways with some nice deep screws. I imagine that the boat has been rigged at least at some point. If so, the thing should be strong enough.

I still think your arrangement is uncomfortable, at best. Try piling about 40' of your chain next to the anchor on your shop floor, with the rest of the chain aboard in your locker. Climb up on the bow and haul it all in. If you like it, terrific. But I'll bet you won't.

A windlass is lovely for handeling chain and for diminishing the effort, the brute strength, it takes to bring the anchor up.

You should try to arrange things such that the weakest member of you crew (perhaps excluding small children) can do everything.

But the windlass by itself will rarely break out a well set anchor. Even with a windlass, the fastest breakout is when you use the boat's weight going forward to twist the shaft up and let the plough aim for the surface.

I sometimes breakout with windlass alone - If sailing off in a crowded place where going backwards to start is the best choise. Grana will back with mizzen flat and helm lashed amidships. Or cock the helm a little to favor one tack.

The gig is to bring the anchor straight up and down and to keep adding pressure a little at a time. It'll worm its way out after a bit. I then haul it up to having it just at the dangle - maybe if the hook is really muddy leave it just at the surface. Grana will be making a little stern way. I hoist the staysail and push it out to help accelerate the turn. With the mizzen flat even with a little helm she'll only get started but that's fine. Once whe's made it to a reach, I've time to go aft, let the mizzen run so she'll accelerate in the turn, and get the helm free to put it over the other way as she moves from sternway to headway.

[Gerald]

Âncoras de ferro galvanizado 15 kg, tipo CQR p/ barcos de até 11metros. MegaMarine
A direct translation.
Anchor of steel galvanized 33 pounds, type CQR for boats of until 11 meters, $142.
I think you are right all the way around. The CQR is for sure a copy and is made here in South America. I would not think that would necessarily make it a bad anchor but for sure one should be leary! I need to talk to someone that has one and find out if it works. I will also call the supplier and get some more info. about it.
If I buy from outside the country there is a tax 60% above the sale price. I order darn few things from other countries!
Another option is to buy one and then have someone dimension a real one and I will modify this one to fit the specs.
I am also fairly sure that the chain tube, etc., is in the wrong place but that is something I can move once I get the boat in the water. I have only sailed this boat less than 4 miles and have never talked to the person I bought it from other than thru e-mail. He sailed it here from Argentina and flew back to England.
The chain test you suggested works slick as can be and the chain self feeds into the locker with no problem.
I am the strongest and weakest link in the crew. I sail alone. My wife sometimes goes out but I am still the weakest and strongest link in the crew.
The front receiver / stay support is bolted on in the front with two 3/8" bolts. In addition there are a number of screws holding the plate on.
I still have faith in the architect, Campos, and his yard. I need to try this thing out and will then have a ton of questions.
Thank You
Gerald Niffenegger

[Ian McColgin]

Go for it. You have exactly the right attitude and approach to build on your experience. It also makes sense to trust the yard in this case.

When I first got Grana there were several hundred things I thought were pretty dumb and planned to change, but I made a deal with myself to change nothing for a year. The owner before me had lived aboard for over 20 years and sailed all over the Carrabean and to Africa and such. No reason to assume that I was much smarter than he.

G'luck